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Post by BadCompany on Oct 18, 2011 7:30:18 GMT -5
Cranks? Anarchists? Ne'er-do-wells who should all gets haircuts and real jobs?
Or patriots, revolutionaries, the cutting edge of a new world order?
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Post by Polarice on Oct 18, 2011 9:09:24 GMT -5
Communist?
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Post by franko on Oct 18, 2011 9:43:14 GMT -5
all of the above?
a few people with a legitimate concern, a few people with nothing better to do, a few people who complain about corporations while talking on their IPhones.
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Post by Cranky on Oct 18, 2011 12:28:09 GMT -5
I'm glad someone started this thread because I also have some issues I want to protest.
Is there anybody here who wants to join me in protesting for free Viagra and sex? I'm serious. The price of Viagra and hookers is now simply un-affordability and I want the government to step in and pay for it. Not only would it make me happier, it would be a huge job creator. Just imagine how many people would be employed if government paid for hookers. Better yet, government run brothels would also be a huge real estate booster.
Who will join me?
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Post by Polarice on Oct 18, 2011 13:06:15 GMT -5
I'm in!!
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Post by BadCompany on Oct 18, 2011 13:10:41 GMT -5
I thought I was a hooker working for the government?? I mean, they **** me enough...
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 18, 2011 13:59:09 GMT -5
I'd rather be an escort for the government....at least I'd get dinner first.
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Post by franko on Oct 18, 2011 14:03:04 GMT -5
I thought I was a hooker working for the government?? I mean, they **** me enough... try living in Ottawa . . . they have a big palace right on the river where they do their business. not only do they do it to us, then then crap all over us when it's done. [edit: I want to know this: are the owners of the Habs over the past years learning from the feds, or are the feds taking lessons from the owners?] |
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 18, 2011 14:49:02 GMT -5
Go to YouTube and check out: George Carlin - The American Dream. He makes some valid points (albeit a tad paranoid  )...but he's talking about a system out of control, and perhaps beyond fixing. The IMF...the FED...many believe what we've been seeing and will continue to see, is a deliberate, well-orchestrated plan. LANGUAGE WARNING |
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Post by franko on Oct 18, 2011 15:20:47 GMT -5
you almost need to say CONSPIRACY THEORY WARNING . . . and I don't necessarily mean that in a negative way.
in the late 70s it wasn't big business that was the problem and that was going to take over and run the world through the IMF etc though, it was the Jews who owned everything and ran things from the background, or the Catholic Church or the Illuminati or the Freemasons, or a satanic cult or . . .
sometimes I feel like we're living in a Robert Ludlum novel.
the only thing I'm sure of is that things are a mess! oh, and that it can't be a government in charge because they can't do anything right!
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 18, 2011 17:13:02 GMT -5
You forgot the Bilderbergers. I think the conspiracy theories are being homogenized to a certain degree now, franko....i.e. all part and parcel of what's happening....at least the fear of what's happening, in what I best understand to be the perceived systematic downgrade of the middle classes to the working poor....and the rich getting richer. Who's being hurt here? And who isn't? And why? Who loses everything, and who gets bailed out? Perhaps we're living in the era where capitalism burns itself out. It's a big Monopoly game, and a lot of hard-working, decent people are being left with no alternative but to hand it over. Yes, many over-extended their limits....but that's nothing in comparison to what's going on with the corruption in high finance. Nothing, IMO. |
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Post by franko on Oct 18, 2011 17:36:05 GMT -5
I think the conspiracy theories are being homogenized to a certain degree now, franko....i.e. all part and parcel of what's happening....at least the fear of what's happening, in what I best understand to be the perceived systematic downgrade of the middle classes to the working poor....and the rich getting richer. agree that fear is key here . . . used to be fear of the unknown, still is, though the unknown has some quantifiers to it now. used to be "what will the unknown god do to us today?"; now it's "what will those who are playing god do to us today?". why are the big guns being bailed out by the little guy is the question, and the answer is "because they can". I remember reading Toffler's Powershift when it came out -- fascinating book. recap: to begin with it was the strong who made the rules; then it was the rich who could hire the strong who made the rules; now [as in the 90s] it is the knowledgeable who know how to get the money who can hire the strong who make the rules. that's not capitalism burning itself out, that's capitalism at its basest form. no disagreement there. the only difference is that we peed-on peons go begging for a crust when we over-extend, and the bourgeoisie take the crust from us when they are over-extended and say its for our own good. |
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 18, 2011 19:07:15 GMT -5
that's not capitalism burning itself out, that's capitalism at its basest form. So, the basest form of capitalism is to have only a few in control of most everything, and the rest basically slaves to the system? I guess that's right. I'm all for free enterprise...but the powerful should not be fleecing the masses and/or putting up impervious boundaries as well....there's more than enough to go around. It will burn out....as the gap increases to an end-Monopoly scenario. Or a revolution of some kind. I'd love to read more about it. So many examples and levels. Even in a Utopian society, someone would want more Utopia. |
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Post by Cranky on Oct 19, 2011 1:12:23 GMT -5
So little time.....so many conspiracies.....
Could it be.....
....the masses want cheaper and the corporation provide it for them? While making profits?
...the masses and the corporation have something in common? Like GREED?
....the banks need to be bailed out because they are the backbone of the economy? Although a few bankers in jail would look good.
....the car companies had to be bailed out because there were too many jobs at stake? Although a few union and car companies bosses in jail would look good.
....the housing bubble was embraced by all and when it went poof, everybody pointed at the other guy for causing it?
...that the West is a consumer economy that has exported production to the lowest cost producers to get cheaper prices to consume more?
.....that by embracing the global economy, jobs and wages would suffer?
Could be all of the above, but I like to blame it on aliens.
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 19, 2011 2:28:12 GMT -5
Chicken or egg?
Did the consumer demand cheaper goods first....or did businesses leave for Asian production because they weren't making enough profit? Then they bring it back "cheaper" than before...and market that way. Once the masses get a taste of lower prices, they don't analyze it.....they just continue to expect lower prices. Meanwhile, jobs are gone....ooops. But the corporations continue to make profit.
Did NA union/higher wages make it impossible for businesses to make a profit...or maximum profit?
And once the outsourcing begins, the ball starts rolling, as everyone has to compete.
Maybe it's just the natural course of things. Anyway, we're not getting that elephant back in the wetsuit.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Oct 19, 2011 7:34:11 GMT -5
I'd like to know just how many are doing this to make a difference and how many are simply sheep.
Cheers.
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Post by BadCompany on Oct 19, 2011 8:19:51 GMT -5
Although a few bankers in jail would look good. ....the car companies had to be bailed out because there were too many jobs at stake? Although a few union and car companies bosses in jail would look good. My fury, such as it is, stems from this; not only did nobody go to jail, but most were very handsomely rewarded for it, in the form of multi-million dollar bonuses. A while back you wrote an eloquent piece defending the pay of CEOs, outlining everything they had to do to run a corporation, and why they should be paid extremely well for doing so. I agree with your position with one exception; should they be rewarded for abject failure? Clearly many of the CEO's involved in the financial mess were NOT good at their jobs, they did NOT possess the characteristics that you say good CEOs should be financially compensated for having. And yet they were anyways. Whereas many hardworking, middle-to-lower class people, who are ALSO good at THEIR jobs, are laid-off, punished as it were, for the failures of those above them. That's where my "occupy" fury comes from. I can understand that if my CEO drives my company into the ground - no matter how good a job I personally do - I can understand that I run the risk of losing my job. BUT I cannot understand why that CEO would then be rewarded for his failure while I am thrown to the curb. That's where the inequality comes in. |
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Post by franko on Oct 19, 2011 8:57:34 GMT -5
That's where my "occupy" fury comes from. except that there doesn't seem to be a lot of fury, just a hodge-podge of reasons to get together. there is no unity of purpose other than "let's get together to protest". and when asked what they wanted one spokesperson said "a trillion dollars for student aid, a trillion dollars for poverty, and a guaranteed minimum $20 an hour for workers". OK . . . where do the trillions come from? from the corporations? then how do they pay $20 a hour? and what about small business -- how do they pay? end globalization is good . . . stop buying cheap product from China [stop shopping at Wal-Mart -- one of those corporations that wouldn't be rich if you didn't spend your money there!] . . . but if your product is being made by employees making $20 plus an hour then expect that the cost of goods will go up [and then you'll complain about high prices!]. [and no, I don't have an answer]. that is something to protest! if my money is going to bail your company out, then your CEOs had better scale down their spending! |
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Post by Cranky on Oct 19, 2011 11:01:39 GMT -5
Although a few bankers in jail would look good. ....the car companies had to be bailed out because there were too many jobs at stake? Although a few union and car companies bosses in jail would look good. My fury, such as it is, stems from this; not only did nobody go to jail, but most were very handsomely rewarded for it, in the form of multi-million dollar bonuses. A while back you wrote an eloquent piece defending the pay of CEOs, outlining everything they had to do to run a corporation, and why they should be paid extremely well for doing so. I agree with your position with one exception; should they be rewarded for abject failure? Clearly many of the CEO's involved in the financial mess were NOT good at their jobs, they did NOT possess the characteristics that you say good CEOs should be financially compensated for having. And yet they were anyways. Whereas many hardworking, middle-to-lower class people, who are ALSO good at THEIR jobs, are laid-off, punished as it were, for the failures of those above them. That's where my "occupy" fury comes from. I can understand that if my CEO drives my company into the ground - no matter how good a job I personally do - I can understand that I run the risk of losing my job. BUT I cannot understand why that CEO would then be rewarded for his failure while I am thrown to the curb. That's where the inequality comes in. First of all, I resent the word "eloquent" to describe anything I write. Random synaptic firings should not be rewarded. No, CEO who fail should NOT be rewarded for abject failure and despite my advancing memory loss, I don't think I ever defended that. The problem stems from political meddling and money without actually doing anything about it. They could of made firing of all the directors of the failed bank a prerequisite for support. They could of fired the directors of the car companies and demanded the firing of the union bosses for helping the car companies. Did any of that happen? In the real world, when politicians don't have a say, failure is rewarded with unemployment cheques for EVERYBODY. |
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Post by Cranky on Oct 19, 2011 11:14:51 GMT -5
That's where my "occupy" fury comes from. except that there doesn't seem to be a lot of fury, just a hodge-podge of reasons to get together. there is no unity of purpose other than "let's get together to protest". and when asked what they wanted one spokesperson said "a trillion dollars for student aid, a trillion dollars for poverty, and a guaranteed minimum $20 an hour for workers". OK . . . where do the trillions come from? from the corporations? then how do they pay $20 a hour? and what about small business -- how do they pay? end globalization is good . . . stop buying cheap product from China [stop shopping at Wal-Mart -- one of those corporations that wouldn't be rich if you didn't spend your money there!] . . . but if your product is being made by employees making $20 plus an hour then expect that the cost of goods will go up [and then you'll complain about high prices!]. [and no, I don't have an answer]. I do have the answers and it's a radical change from my previous position. It's tariffs and "fair" trade. China is manipulating their currency to keep good artificially low. No problem, 20% tariffs will take care of that problem. India want to get into our market? No problem, what will they buy in return? Of course the prices will rise for some goods. On the other hand, there will be more people with money in their hands to buy those goods. Given enough demand for labour, salaries will rise too. So in the end, MANAGED trade is better for everyone. The problem is...who is going to manage it? The union and politicians? I rather slash my wrists now. Who? Who is smart enough and "balanced" enough to essentially run the economy of the country? |
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Post by Cranky on Oct 19, 2011 11:17:22 GMT -5
Chicken or egg? Did the consumer demand cheaper goods first....or did businesses leave for Asian production because they weren't making enough profit? Then they bring it back "cheaper" than before...and market that way. Once the masses get a taste of lower prices, they don't analyze it.....they just continue to expect lower prices. Meanwhile, jobs are gone....ooops. But the corporations continue to make profit. Did NA union/higher wages make it impossible for businesses to make a profit...or maximum profit? And once the outsourcing begins, the ball starts rolling, as everyone has to compete. Maybe it's just the natural course of things. Anyway, we're not getting that elephant back in the wetsuit. Greed has no natural selection order. It simply infect everyone equally. There is a way to get to get the elephant back in the wet suit. See above post. |
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 19, 2011 11:35:50 GMT -5
Chicken or egg? Did the consumer demand cheaper goods first....or did businesses leave for Asian production because they weren't making enough profit? Then they bring it back "cheaper" than before...and market that way. Once the masses get a taste of lower prices, they don't analyze it.....they just continue to expect lower prices. Meanwhile, jobs are gone....ooops. But the corporations continue to make profit. Did NA union/higher wages make it impossible for businesses to make a profit...or maximum profit? And once the outsourcing begins, the ball starts rolling, as everyone has to compete. Maybe it's just the natural course of things. Anyway, we're not getting that elephant back in the wetsuit. Greed has no natural selection order. It simply infect everyone equally. There is a way to get to get the elephant back in the wet suit. See above post. Yeah, that's likely a great strategy....but you also ask, "Who is smart enough and "balanced" enough to essentially run the economy of the country?"I think you answer it above: Greed has no natural selection order. It simply infect everyone equally.Even if somebody WAS smart enough and ethical enough to run it....would they be allowed to do so? And that's where the theories start. There have been a heck of a lot of smart people running things over the years. Tops in their fields. And a lot of the world's economies are way out of whack at the moment. |
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Post by Cranky on Oct 19, 2011 12:58:57 GMT -5
Yeah, that's likely a great strategy....but you also ask, "Who is smart enough and "balanced" enough to essentially run the economy of the country?"I think you answer it above: Greed has no natural selection order. It simply infect everyone equally.Even if somebody WAS smart enough and ethical enough to run it....would they be allowed to do so? And that's where the theories start. There have been a heck of a lot of smart people running things over the years. Tops in their fields. And a lot of the world's economies are way out of whack at the moment. Two issues.... 1. Can the economy be better run in the greater good of everybody? Yes. By managed trade. 2. Who can do it? I don't know. It would be the worlds most thankless job and that person would need dictatorial powers to overcome the cacophony of interest and demands. Take Greece by example. Even though the country is going down the crapper on a triple flush, there are still people demanding that the OTHER guy pay the price. Greed infects EVERYONE equally. |
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 19, 2011 13:27:55 GMT -5
Yep....you're saying it basically can't be done unless the people in charge take a dictatorial approach behind an impenetrable fortress....both literally and figuratively. Immune to and protected from all conflicts of interests, lobbying, corruption, assassination, etc.
Managed trade is likely the answer....but the key players have to be willing assume their share of a profit loss. Not to go into the red....but to lose some of the black.
And the workers have to be willing to do their share, too.
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Post by Cranky on Oct 20, 2011 11:57:30 GMT -5
Managed trade is likely the answer....but the key players have to be willing assume their share of a profit loss. Not to go into the red....but to lose some of the black. And the workers have to be willing to do their share, too. Good luck with that. Greed........it's in our DNA. |
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)...but he's talking about a system out of control, and perhaps beyond fixing. The IMF...the FED...many believe what we've been seeing and will continue to see, is a deliberate, well-orchestrated plan. 