Gratton to Europe

[PTH]

Given how many people saw Gratton as a likely 4th liner for the future, I thought you might all like to know it sounds like he's off to Europe.

www.geocities.com/floridapanthers2000/free2004.html

Can't say I blame him - he's getting older and probably wants the higher pay from Switzerland - and getting a contract sooner rather than later means if there's a lockout he's already in, before the influx of NHLers looking for a hobby.

Mods: move this to the prospect board if you wish, though I figured it's more of a Hab issue than a real prospect one - Gratton is 28 or 29 after all...

[blny]

Thanks PTH. Best of luck to Benny. I'm sure he'll do well on the big ice.

[Deleted]

Too bad. I thought he'd be a good one to have on our checking line, but I guess we have Bégin, so....

I dunno.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Good for Gratton. Why keep banging your head against the wall? Get out, see the world, have some fun, and play the game you love a while longer.

Les meilleurs voeux pour un séjour agréable en Europe et les mercis d'avoir été une influence positive sur les joueurs plus jeunes à Hamilton.

Buh-buh-Benny
Benny and the 'Dogs

Good times, good times...

[Bob]

Good luck to Gratton. Another year in the AHL wouldn't be that satisfying and even if he was given a shot at the NHL, there might not be a season. It was a good decision.

Hopefully, he can maintain a good rapport with the Habs and provide us with another set of eyes and ears in Europe.

[HabbaDasher]

This opens a spot for Urquahart, Lapierre, or Locke.

I never thought Gratton got a fair shot.
Neither did Eric Landry.
Gritty, smart centers with decent speed who excelled at the AHL level.
While perhaps not permanent solutions, it would have been nice to see them rewarded for their efforts with more NHL starts.

Anyone know if Higgins was used mostly as a center in Hamilton, or was he switched to LW where some in the organization (Savard?) felt he might be better off?

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

HabbaDasher said:

Anyone know if Higgins was used mostly as a center in Hamilton, or was he switched to LW where some in the organization (Savard?) felt he might be better off?

Higgins played the vast majority of the season on LW. Not so much due to Savard's infamous "lack of creativity" remark as the fact that he is worse than my sister in the face-off circle.

[HabbaDasher]

M. said:

......he is worse than my sister in the face-off circle.

But he still has pretty soft hands, doesn't he?

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

HabbaDasher said:

But he still has pretty soft hands, doesn't he?

IMO, Higgins is a certain NHLer (much like Chipchura who's *down-side* is a 3rd line NHler). I think he'll start on the 3rd line but impress with his all-around game and bust to move up.

Blaise and montreal can provide other info on Higgins

[montreal]

HabbaDasher said:

But he still has pretty soft hands, doesn't he?

Higgins led the team in goals per game with 21 in 67, and in the playoffs was tied for team lead with 3 in 10. Yes was used mostly as a LW, and yes he's poor in the face-off circle. (so is Urquhart imo)

[mic]

montreal said:

[...] he's poor in the face-off circle. (so is Urquhart imo)

Every report you give about Uruqhart makes me like him more and more . So, a non-physical center who is weak on face-off ? Sounds great, doesn't it ? I wonder how he would do in the AHL. Perhaps we'll see next season.

To the subject : I'm looking forward to see Gratton play in the swiss league. At least I'm just twenty minutes away from the rink. What's funny is that he will replace Oleg Petrov for Geneva and play against the "ennemi" team from Lausanne which is lead by Bashkirov and Landry.

[PTH]

M. said:

IMO, Higgins is a certain NHLer (much like Chipchura who's *down-side* is a 3rd line NHler). I think he'll start on the 3rd line but impress with his all-around game and bust to move up.

I'd beware anyone who's looked at as having no "downside" - that doesn't mean they'll be worth anything as 3d liners....

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

PTH said:

I'd beware anyone who's looked at as having no "downside" - that doesn't mean they'll be worth anything as 3d liners....

I'd draft anyone whose down-side is agreed to be a 3rd line NHler, rather than someone whose upside is possibly making the NHL.

[PTH]

M. said:

I'd draft anyone whose down-side is agreed to be a 3rd line NHler, rather than someone whose upside is possibly making the NHL.

The problem is that they don't live up to the hype - guys like Terry Ryan and Matt Higgins were sure to make it in some role or another. Actually, most prospects whose scouting report said "is sure to make it somehow" seem NOT to make it, or at least to never amount to anything.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

PTH said:

The problem is that they don't live up to the hype - guys like Terry Ryan and Matt Higgins were sure to make it in some role or another. Actually, most prospects whose scouting report said "is sure to make it somehow" seem NOT to make it, or at least to never amount to anything.

Unlike guys like Théodore, Komisarek and Ribeiro, who have no hype to live up to, right?

I'll still take a guy that most analysts/scouts agree will be an NHL player, over one that some figure has a chance, unless the latter category is all that there is left to choose from. In other words, I'd follow pretty much the pecking order that drafting team establish.

On average between 10-20% of drafted players make the NHL. That's 1 or 2 out of my 9 draft choices any given year. Why would I not want to increase my odds of success in this crap-shoot?

[montreal]

mic said:

Every report you give about Uruqhart makes me like him more and more . So, a non-physical center who is weak on face-off ? Sounds great, doesn't it ? I wonder how he would do in the AHL. Perhaps we'll see next season.

To the subject : I'm looking forward to see Gratton play in the swiss league. At least I'm just twenty minutes away from the rink. What's funny is that he will replace Oleg Petrov for Geneva and play against the "ennemi" team from Lausanne which is lead by Bashkirov and Landry.

Well Urquhart, imo was a major reason why Lambert scored 42 goals this year. Urquhart has very good offensive abilities. His shot, stickhandling, passing are his bread and butter, all are NHL quality already. His skating/speed/defensive game are decent but will need to be improved. His lack of any sort of physical game (in the games I've seen and listened to on the radio) and his face-off abilites are his biggest areas of concern. I'd also say he needs to add some muscle but I could say that about most 19 year olds. I do think he'll be in Hamilton next year, and if Mr. Nonphysical Kyle Wellwood can lead the AHL in rookie scoring, I have faith Urquhart will do fine. Guess we'll see what happens.

[PTH]

M. said:

Unlike guys like Théodore, Komisarek and Ribeiro, who have no hype to live up to, right?

I'll still take a guy that most analysts/scouts agree will be an NHL player, over one that some figure has a chance, unless the latter category is all that there is left to choose from. In other words, I'd follow pretty much the pecking order that drafting team establish.

On average between 10-20% of drafted players make the NHL. That's 1 or 2 out of my 9 draft choices any given year. Why would I not want to increase my odds of success in this crap-shoot?

*sigh*

My whole point is that the ones who are hyped as "sure things" AREN'T "sure things" - unlike guys who are seen as having more talent yet might not put it all together. Some of them will make it and actually prove to be useful players, some won't. But those that do were worth picking. Unlike "sure thing" Matt Higgins. Wouldn't we have been better off picking a riskier player like Bulis in the 1st round, than "sure thing" Matt Higgins ?

A guy like Komisarek is the rarest of breeds - a guy who seems sure to make it, quickly, and might have additionnal upside. Theo wasn't even rated as a 1st rounder, and plenty of guys picked ahead of him didn't make it, and plenty of "sure-fire NHLers" picked ahead of him became nothing or next to nothing.

Which means that yeah, I'd go by the "typical" draft order, and wouldn't try particularly hard to get someone rated as a "garanteed" 3d liner, since those garantees aren't worth the cyberpaper they're printed on.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

PTH said:

*sigh*

Double *sigh*.

Which means that yeah, I'd go by the "typical" draft order, and wouldn't try particularly hard to get someone rated as a "garanteed" 3d liner, since those garantees aren't worth the cyberpaper they're printed on.

Chipchura's "downside" is rated as a 3rd liner.

The typical draft order has him placed as a first round pick. First ranked NA skater at mid-season and fourth ranked final. Has the qualities the Habs are looking for in a forward. A Gainey type player.

Looking for guarantees? Get a job in the civil service.

[PTH]

M. said:

Chipchura's "downside" is rated as a 3rd liner.

So ? Look at many bad draft years ( and this year is supposed to be thin) - a 3d liner is all you can hope for. If his downside really were a 3d liner he'd be a top-10 or even top-5 sure-fire pick....

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

PTH said:

So ? Look at many bad draft years ( and this year is supposed to be thin) - a 3d liner is all you can hope for. If his downside really were a 3d liner he'd be a top-10 or even top-5 sure-fire pick....

He is.

The top 10 (excluding Ovechkin, Malkin and Barker) includes about 25 players this year.

[Patty Roy]

M. said:

Chipchura is included on many top 10 lists and it is commonly conceded that after the first 3 picks the field is wide open.

To be fair, i haven't seen Chipchura on many top 10 lists. CSB seems to think quite highly of him, but then again the Habs have been burned on a number of occasions by picking big NA forwards who have been ranked higher by the CSB than say THN or other publications.

I like what i'm reading about Chipchura...if he could develop into a Dave Scatchard type i would be thrilled and wouldn't hesitate to take him at 18. Then again, as PTH has already stated, Matt Higgins was supposed to be that type of player 8 years ago (with a bit less grit) and look what he got us? Funny that he was also picked 18th overall...

This draft, especially at 18, is a crapshoot. I would personally prefer a d-man with the 1st pick (Green, Valabik, Meszaros), but when it comes right down to it i have faith in Gainey and his crew. Who am i to second guess their pick when have hardly seen any of these guys play?

My gut still tells me that the Habs will be picking Korpikoski at 18 if he's still available.

[Patty Roy]

montreal said:

Well Urquhart, imo was a major reason why Lambert scored 42 goals this year. Urquhart has very good offensive abilities. His shot, stickhandling, passing are his bread and butter, all are NHL quality already. His skating/speed/defensive game are decent but will need to be improved. His lack of any sort of physical game (in the games I've seen and listened to on the radio) and his face-off abilites are his biggest areas of concern. I'd also say he needs to add some muscle but I could say that about most 19 year olds. I do think he'll be in Hamilton next year, and if Mr. Nonphysical Kyle Wellwood can lead the AHL in rookie scoring, I have faith Urquhart will do fine. Guess we'll see what happens.

Montreal....how long do you think Urquhart will last at C? When i saw him at the prospect tournament i thought he had some real nice skills, but i wonder if he isn't better suited to play the wing in the pros? It's probably the last thing any of us want to hear (yet another C prospect moved to the wings) but i think its inevitable with Urquhart. Especially if he's as bad at faceoffs as you claim.

FWIW, Urquhart seemed to remind me a bit of Brian Savage when i saw him, only with better stickhandling ability and maybe not the same quality of shot.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Patty said:

To be fair, i haven't seen Chipchura on many top 10 lists. CSB seems to think quite highly of him, but then again the Habs have been burned on a number of occasions by picking big NA forwards who have been ranked higher by the CSB than say THN or other publications.

There doesn't seem to be a clear-cut top 10 this year. Beyond Ovechkin, Malkin and Barker the field seems to be wide open for the first round. So, theoretically, a player ranked 12th could be considered top 10 in this draft.

The Habs were burned, true. But I think most would agree that Gainey, Gauthier, Savard and Timmins are better judges of talent than the gang who picked Ryan and M Higgins.

I like what i'm reading about Chipchura...if he could develop into a Dave Scatchard type i would be thrilled and wouldn't hesitate to take him at 18. Then again, as PTH has already stated, Matt Higgins was supposed to be that type of player 8 years ago (with a bit less grit) and look what he got us? Funny that he was also picked 18th overall...

I don't subscribe to the once-bitten-twice-shy approach; our management is improved, and as you mention below and I stated previously, the entry draft is by-and-large a crap-shoot.

Prince Albert's Kyle Chipchura is a bit of an enigma to RLR. In our most recent viewing, he once again didn't do much, but we can still see why he's a top 15 talent. Skating was a bit better than expected. Is dangerous every shift, and has that "hunter" look when he's on the ice, just looking for a place to make the big play. Very good puck handler, and can make some nice moves at top speed. Very confident on the ice. Our impression was that he's a bit of a floater, until he turned it on in the third period. Also stood up for a teammate when there was a knee-on-knee hit — that's something we always want to see.

- www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/columnist/woodlief/2003-11-30-woodlief_x.htm

Although not a fluid skater, has more than adequate speed … Is strong on his skates and hard to knock off balance … Has excellent vision and is a good playmaker … Is strong on face-offs, where he is used in all game situations … Has a good shot with a quick release … Is an effective two-way player … Possesses good hockey sense … A good character player who is very competitive … Plays hard and does not hesitate to go into traffic … Will take a hit to make a play … Finishes his checks with authority … Will initiate and respond to a challenge … Is an effective forechecker who can both strip opponents of the puck and throw a big hit … Controls and protects the puck very well with his big frame … Is an effective shot blocker … A real team player.

- www.nyrangers.com/team/nhldraft04/profile.asp?Player=Chipchura

This draft, especially at 18, is a crapshoot. I would personally prefer a d-man with the 1st pick (Green, Valabik, Meszaros), but when it comes right down to it i have faith in Gainey and his crew. Who am i to second guess their pick when have hardly seen any of these guys play?

My gut still tells me that the Habs will be picking Korpikoski at 18 if he's still available

While I like Chipchura as a pick for the Habs, I don't expect him to be around at #18. In Timmins I trust.

[BadCompany]

Central Scouting report: Good skater with powerful stride and good speed. ... Good puckhandling skills. ... Excellent two-way player. ... Often used on power play. ... Tenacious checker and hard hitter who enjoys physical aspects of game. ... Accepts any role and shows up for every game.

Scouting report: Has the potential to be a good NHL power forward. He has an excellent work ethic to go with his fine offensive skills, as well as the will to play physical. He is already one of the team leaders at his young age. Needs to work on his skating, and continue to develop his goal-scoring skills.

Scouting notes: Offensive ability is good ... skating ability is good ... defensive play is very good ... physical play is very good ... on-ice consistency is very good.

6-2, 185, center. Rated sixth in North America by the CSS but probably won't be drafted that high because of concerns about his offensive skills. Could develop into a solid checker rather than a scorer.

Kyle Chipchura scouting reports? Nah... Pre-draft scouting reports for Manny Malhotra (8th overall), Jason Ward (11th overall) and Scott Kelman (15th overall).

In Savard we trust indeed...

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Yes they aren't Kyle Chipchura.

[seventeen]

I like to see where the scouts feel there are deficiencies in their play. Some weaknesses are more easily improved on than others. I've yet to see a player with no hockey sense, develop it later in life. But occasionally a poor skater gets better (to the point of adequacy), or a shot improves, etc. Stone hands might improve to concrete hands but not much more. Guys who aren't courageous, don't usually bloom into Victoria Cross winners, blah blah, yada yada. Since I can't seem to come up with a Hockey News Draft Preview, just how does Chipchura, or Korpikoski stack up in terms of where improvement is needed?

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

M. said:

...Chipchura is included on many top 10 lists and it is commonly conceded that after the first 3 picks the field is wide open. Chipchura is widely regarded as a "sure-fire" NHLer with at least third line potential.

Russians Alexander Ovechkin and Evgeni Malkin are highly touted this time around and are expected to go first and second overall to the Washington Capitals and Pittsburgh Penguins respectively.

Cam Barker of the Medicine Hat Tigers is the best defenseman and there are a handful of goalies who could be taken by the time the first round concludes.

As for the rest of the pack, the feeling is you could throw all their sticks in a pile, divide them up, play shinny and wait patiently for a star to emerge.

"I think No. 10 could be 40 or even 80. It is a little bit all over the map," says Don Maloney, the vice-president, player personnel of the New York Rangers.

- www.nhl.com/futures/2004draft/wide_open061104.html

[Patty Roy]

In the case of Chipchura, i think it comes down to how you think the offensive part of his game will translate in the pros.

By all accounts the size, face-off ability and defensive game is there...but do you pick a center in the top 20 overall when he hasn't even scored 25 goals over 2 seasons (130 or so games) in the WHL? His numbers are in the same range (at the same age) as former 1st rounders Manny Malhotra and Brian Sutherby, both of whom were projected to be similar players to Chipchura. Matt Higgins at the same age had over 70 goals in the WHL (over 3 seasons...6, 36 and 30 his draft season).

Then there is a case like Dave Scatchard, who never scored more than 20 goals in the WHL, but has two 21+ goal seasons under his belt at the NHL level (including one 27 goal season).

Like i said earlier, if you think Chipchura is going to be a better pro than he's been a junior (so far), then i think you take him without question if he's still available at #18 as he would address an organizational need for size and skill up the middle. I'm just not convinced that he's that type of prospect...

[montreal]

Patty said:

Montreal....how long do you think Urquhart will last at C? When i saw him at the prospect tournament i thought he had some real nice skills, but i wonder if he isn't better suited to play the wing in the pros? It's probably the last thing any of us want to hear (yet another C prospect moved to the wings) but i think its inevitable with Urquhart. Especially if he's as bad at faceoffs as you claim.

FWIW, Urquhart seemed to remind me a bit of Brian Savage when i saw him, only with better stickhandling ability and maybe not the same quality of shot.

Yea I also wonder how long he'll last as a center. He did play RW some this year, so it may have already started. At times, Lapierre would take the center spot (he's better on draws, plus Urquhart gets tossed out of a lot of draws). I would think that at some point he will be moved, but I would guess they would wait till he's in Hamilton, or maybe not move him at all. I just think his biggest problem is in the face-off circle, as he can make some very good passes, and his stickhandling is very good too. His lack of strength/physical game is also a concern, and as a offensive player first and foremost, he has to improve his defensive game, which would be easier on him if he was moved to wing. I'm hoping he's signed this summer, so Jarvis can work with him. If Jarvis can't help him be a better center, the kids in trouble.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Benoit Gratton chooses Switzerland

[e-mail]

June 11 2004 - Another member of the Montreal Canadiens organization leaves. This time it's Benoit Gratton who will refocus his career by accepting a one year contract with the Lugano Club of the Swiss first division.

27 years old, Gratton was free as a bird since the two year agreement that had bound him to the Habs and to Hamilton had expired. Realistically, Gratton did not expect anything more than another two-way contract. However, he didn't want to spend another season of six to eight hours on a bus.

"It's true that the prospect of a lockout in the NHL in September also weighed in the balance. Since American League salaries could also be re-examined in the fall, Europe proved to be the ideal solution for me", indicated Gratton.

"Negotiations proceeded a little like here, except that it's also necessary to engage in talks about an apartment, a car, insurance. There is the salary, but also many other items which it is necessary to have settled before signing."

Benoit is convinced that the move could lengthen his career by two or three years. "There are fewer trips. With a maximum of three hours in the worst case; they are most importantly shorter. Also, the season has only 48 games. No more dealing with three games in three nights!".

No regrets

Even if he hasn't realized his dream of playing in the NHL on a regular basis, Gratton doesn't harbour any regrets. "I believe sincerely that I gave it all that I had. Certainly there were the injuries, but they are part of the "game". I do not want to live in the past and wonder what I could have achieved if I had been healthy."

Gratton has been encouraged by the favorable reviews he has heard of Switzerland over several years "My agent, my uncle Jean-Guy Gratton, played over there for eight years. I also have many friends who are there at this moment, which speaks well of the place. I think of guys like Christian Dubé, Sebastien Bordeleau, Yanick Dubé, Éric Landry, Yves Sarrault. Patrick Boileau, who has just signed with Lausanne, will be there as well".

It is also significant to note that Lugano also has plans to engage an NHL player. Dany Heatley and Martin St-Louis are possibilities.

"It would be good to get Martin. We played together in Calgary and in St-John (N.B) in the American League. That worked very well."

There remains only the stress of leaving. Benoit, his wife Roxanne and their two daughters Alexia, 2 years old, and Lili-Rose, born at the end of April, will not be having their first experiences abroad. Between the recalls to Montreal and the stays in Hamilton, their luggage served them well.

"To leave will be difficult. But it will be fine once there." And so, Benoît adds his name to the long list of those who understand that to leave is to die a little...

- www.src.ca/sports/hockey/nouvelles/200406/01/002-GrattonBenoitSuisse.shtml