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Post by AH on Jan 28, 2004 11:39:23 GMT -5
I know TB probably wouldn't have done that deal. My only point was to try and explore the logic behind NOT making a move now because you don't want to mess with the chemistry and send the wrong message to the players. It's a tough call. It's not just a chemistry thing. The team does not have defensemen to trade. If you want Komi and Hainsey to develop properly and contribute greatly to the Cup run 3 years from now (which is what everyone hopes including you), then Craig Rivet and Patrice Brisebois are NOT expendable. Not unless another veteran defenseman is acquired. Perhaps in a year from now when Komi will have his feet wet (hopefully) and Hainsey looking for additional playing time, then you consider moving a Rivet for help up front. I even think the team needs to bring back Quintal next year in a part time role (if he is willing) to take some pressure off the young defensemen. And don't underestimate the importance and impact on team building and morale from making the playoffs. Making the playoffs (regardless of how we are perceived to do when the team gets there) is an important step for the Cup run 3 years from now. You can't go from not making the playoffs to being Stanley Cup contenders the next year because you spent 3 years accumulating parts. The team game and chemistry is what's going to get us to the promised land, not a bunch of individual talents who don't know how to play together. |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Jan 28, 2004 11:46:07 GMT -5
How Svitov it isn't?Earlier this year, he was asked how long Russian centre Alexander Svitov would remain in the minors. With that, he went off on the 21-year-old, third overall pick of the Lightning in 2001. "We've been careful with the development of this young man because we expect big things from him, and I think the organization has been very fair with him," Tortorella said. "But if you're a young man getting just six or seven minutes a game and you can't bring any (bleeping) intensity to the game, you can go rot in the minors for all I care." - www.canada.com/edmonton/edmontonjournal/story.asp?id=82AFB03F-374F-4D31-8B1C-B8F01139D7DBFLAWS: May not have the offensive creativity to play a top-six role at center in the NHL. Must cut down on the number of bad penalties he takes. - www.forecaster.ca/thestar/hockey/player.cgi?2368So, a 31 year old offensive d-man with a rep for getting pushed around in his own zone too often (sounds familiar) for a 21 year old #3 over all pick with "tremendous offensive upside". Hmmm...
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jan 28, 2004 11:52:09 GMT -5
It's not just a chemistry thing. The team does not have defensemen to trade. If you want Komi and Hainsey to develop properly and contribute greatly to the Cup run 3 years from now (which is what everyone hopes including you), then Craig Rivet and Patrice Brisebois are NOT expendable. Not unless another veteran defenseman is acquired. . I think the key phrase is "not unless another veteran defenseman is acquired." Just imagine the scenario - MTL trades Rivet plus a high pick for Svitov - MTL trades a pick for UFA to be Keith Carney. So you have (a) added a possible long term fixture at centre in Svitov, and (b) shored up the loss of Rivet with another veteran in Carney. (I know, Carney shoots left but I'm sure there is somebody else out there like him who can do the job). It CAN be done. |
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Post by AH on Jan 28, 2004 12:01:26 GMT -5
I think the key phrase is "not unless another veteran defenseman is acquired." Just imagine the scenario - MTL trades Rivet plus a high pick for Svitov - MTL trades a pick for UFA to be Keith Carney. So you have (a) added a possible long term fixture at centre in Svitov, and (b) shored up the loss of Rivet with another veteran in Carney. (I know, Carney shoots left but I'm sure there is somebody else out there like him who can do the job). It CAN be done. Not saying it can't be done. But where you are wrong is in thinking: a) Svitov could be had for Rivet plus pick alone. b) Tampa was even interested in Rivet. c) Tampa was even interested in trading Svitov to the Eastern Conference. d) Carney is better than anyone on our defense not named Souray or Markov. How can he be had for just a pick ? He will cost a Marcel Hossa, at least. e) Carney is a UFA. Why would a rebuilding team want to acquire a UFA to be by giving up futures ? That's just bad management. f) Trade Rivet + pick for Svitov. Trade Hossa for Carney. Lose Carney in the off-season for nothing. Where is the net gain for Montreal ? |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Jan 28, 2004 12:05:59 GMT -5
Indeed, it could very well be that Svitov, despite his potential (hello Chad Kilger), just didn't have the character that Gainey/Savard/Julien were looking for.
Team building is about human beings with personalities, not faceless generic parts. Talent is important, but it's far from the only thing. I recall franko musing out loud during the Devils game: "I looked at their roster...and who the hell are these guys?"
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Post by Rimmer on Jan 28, 2004 12:16:01 GMT -5
The problem is, it sends a lousy message to the team; "hey, thanks for all the hard work, the buying into the system, the standing up for each other and the organization, but really, you guys haven't got a chance." Gainey and Julien have done an excellent job of building back the magic that comes with wearing a Montreal Canadiens sweater. The organizational pride. The class. Do for us, and we do for you. Started with Brisebois and Theodore being defended, and continued with the Ribeiro, Dagenais, Audette etc. benchings. Give your all for us, and we will give our all for you. Loyalty. But if they trade a core player for a prospect in the middle of a playoff race?? Yeesh. Sounds like something Edmonton would do. Not the Montreal Canadiens. a valid point, especially when you consider that Rivet is Saku's best friend and considered a leader in the dressing room. but if you look carefully, I was replying at your question of being willing to sacrifice this year playoffs for future gain. as far as team chemistry goes, from my own personal experience, it is very important but not as important as the quality of players. and here, we are talking of a team that, IMHO, has to overachieve just to squeeze into the playoffs. so, I wouldn't be reluctant to make trades if it's clearly in the team's best interest (long-term). of course, to maintain the good atmosphere aorund the team, the players have to be persuaded that everything CJ and BG do, they do it in the team's best interest. I'm sure players didn't like CJ's benching at first, but now it seems they understand what was that all about. as for making the trades in the offseason instead now, well, I agree in principal, but more often than not, there are better deals available during the season than before the season where everybody's hopes are high and no one knows how will things go once the show started to roll. R. |
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Post by BadCompany on Jan 28, 2004 12:20:00 GMT -5
I think you are getting too enamoured with the success of THIS YEAR's team and not looking down the road. And I think you are according too much importance to Alexander Svitov. A guy like Svitov will always be available. Take a look at all the “top prospects” who have been traded: Svitov, Woywytka, Gleason, Pitkanen, Kiprusoff, Boyes, MacCauley, Van Ryn, Ouellette, Spezza, Torres, Isbister, Pyatt, Connolly, the list goes on and on and on. In my mind, its not worth sacrificing a year’s worth of team/pride/reputation/attitude building for a guy who may or may not pan out – or even make the NHL. Especially when a guy just like him will probably be available at a later date. Last year, yes, I would make a trade like that in a heartbeat, because there was no damage to be done to the dressing room or team morale – we were at rock bottom. Now though, so much has changed… |
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Post by montreal on Jan 28, 2004 18:40:52 GMT -5
And I think you are according too much importance to Alexander Svitov. A guy like Svitov will always be available. Take a look at all the “top prospects” who have been traded: Svitov, Woywytka, Gleason, Pitkanen, Kiprusoff, Boyes, MacCauley, Van Ryn, Ouellette, Spezza, Torres, Isbister, Pyatt, Connolly, the list goes on and on and on. In my mind, its not worth sacrificing a year’s worth of team/pride/reputation/attitude building for a guy who may or may not pan out – or even make the NHL. Especially when a guy just like him will probably be available at a later date. Last year, yes, I would make a trade like that in a heartbeat, because there was no damage to be done to the dressing room or team morale – we were at rock bottom. Now though, so much has changed… Spezza and Pitaken shouldn't be included, they were never traded, only the picks. Yes it was expected that they were trading to get those players, but imo they should not be included with prospects that were traded. |
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Post by del on Jan 28, 2004 19:34:35 GMT -5
The emergence of Martin Cibak at center has pushed Svitov's stock lower. If a 9th rd 252 choice can play better than a 1st rd choice then we may speculate why Gainey may not have been interested - perhaps Svitov is lazy. Mind you Cibak has had more seasonimg in the AHL than Svitov.
All we can do now is sit back and let events take their course - then we can view for ourselves - what might have been.
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Post by Cranky on Jan 28, 2004 20:22:49 GMT -5
Sheesh, it's not like we lost an opportunity to grab Thornton! Svitov is not the only big center out there, there are other one that can be had.
Just a reminder, the Hab's had the MOST experience with Svitov, obviously they know something we don't. Did the guy have a tattoo on his chest saying "Moscow or Bust"? Did he threaten to go back to Russia if he did not get 76 minutes a game and half the of Spiro's vast empire? I am sure that it was more then what Tampa wanted in trade.
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Post by foodfight on Jan 28, 2004 20:45:21 GMT -5
I don't think Montreal should make any trades this year. In fact, it's my opinion they should keep the same team for next year as well. They should go with what they have, and keep whoever is in the minors - in the minors (barring injuries). I realize there are time and space adjustments to be made when jumping up to the NHL, but a few years of AHL experience would make the transition less painless. It would be nice to get to a point where anybody that is called up from the AHL is ready to contribute right away, like Ryder, for example. When your farm team has an abundance of NHL ready prospects, you can make trades from a position of strength to bolster your lineup for a cup run. When you trade a player for a draft pick, you don't really know what you're getting in return - it's a gamble. Losing a player to free agency is not that big of a deal, in my opinion.
I realize this approach would require even more patience, but I don't think Montreal has any proven prospects that would give Montreal any significant value in return. This isn't a good time to trade for an Arnott or O'Neil. Montreal has a lot of prospects that have potential, but that's all they are right now - potential. Save the trades to acquire impact players for a cup run. Montreal needs to play consistently, as a team first.
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Post by PTH on Jan 28, 2004 21:35:51 GMT -5
Spezza and Pitaken shouldn't be included, they were never traded, only the picks. Yes it was expected that they were trading to get those players, but imo they should not be included with prospects that were traded. I disagree.... while it was the picks that were traded, it was quite clear who they were being traded to pick with. Just like we shouldn't rate a trade for a 3d round choice by the player who's picked up 6 months later, I think when a pick is traded with a clear player in mind, we should look at who was drafted. |
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Post by seventeen on Jan 28, 2004 22:33:11 GMT -5
Svitov seemed intense enough when I watched him play for the Dogs, but I didn't see enough to consider it a solid impression. It's just that he's 6'3" 205 and was drafted 3rd in a draft where the top 5 were pretty darned good. And yes, I agree that Rivet is not as good as Sydor and that our offer would have to include a bit more than just Rivet. Would Rivet and Hainsey have done it? Rivet and Hossa perhaps? My overriding opinion is that guys like Feaster don't come along that often, (Houle for example) and that you have to strike when you have the opportunity. Of course, perhaps Feaster's not done yet. Looks like he's trying to get older, fast, in order to go for the bundle this year or next. I love those shortsighted, dull GM's. Let's pick his pockets, take him to the cleaners and rip off his candy too.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jan 29, 2004 9:21:00 GMT -5
I have no idea how good Svitov is or ever will be. I have barely seen him play. His worth is for smarter guys like Bob Gainey and Andre Savard to decide.
What I do know is that big, skilled, rugged, 2-way centres are certainly NOT a dime a dozen in the NHL, certainly not in MTL, and when one who was picked 3rd in an excellent draft becomes available, I think it deserves close scrutiny. That's all. Maybe BG did do his homework and decided to take a pass. Or maybe he did offer a package for Svitov and was turned down, although we would probably know about that.
But this goes beyond the pros and cons of Alex Svitov. To simply argue reflexively say that ANY trade this season that involves someone off the the current roster not named Yanic Perreault would be disruptive to the team chemistry and harmful to the current playoff run is simply not true - at best it's unknown what the reaction would be. You can't always wait for the perfect, least disrputive moment to do a deal. I agree with Seventeen that sometimes to have to strike when opportunity knocks.
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Post by montreal on Jan 29, 2004 13:46:13 GMT -5
I disagree.... while it was the picks that were traded, it was quite clear who they were being traded to pick with. Just like we shouldn't rate a trade for a 3d round choice by the player who's picked up 6 months later, I think when a pick is traded with a clear player in mind, we should look at who was drafted. Quite clear? how can we say that unless we have inside info. I know it was expected that's who they would have taken, but still I don't agree with saying they were traded for, cause there were other highly skilled players that they could have gone for with those picks. But it means little anyways. For the record, in the 4 games I was at Svitov showed a lot of skills, but not much effort (unless it was taking stupid lazy penalities which he seemed good at). I found his intensity to be worse then Hossa's, but he does seem to have a lot of physical strength and will throw the body. I'm glad Gainey didn't go for it, but that's just my opinion.  |
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Jan 29, 2004 13:48:52 GMT -5
First Svitov would be no use to Montreal since everyone knows Gainey is looking for a right handed shot.. ;D
But seriously folks, if Sydor and a 4th is such a low price for such a high prospect then ppossibly 20 other teams could have matched that offer.
I agree with the posters that say Montreal doesn't have the depth on defense to make a trade now.
If Tampa are looking for an offensive minded defenseman then Rivet is not it. Two years ago Rivet was being looked at in the same light as Souray is now in value to the Habs. Now he is not a top 4??
I would think Tampa would ask for Markov or Souray which nobody would do.
If so many other teams didn't up the ante trying to land Svitov then maybe he is not the next Nash, but maybe the next Pavel Brendel?
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Post by del on Jan 29, 2004 18:44:49 GMT -5
Don't you wish BG would just come out say what the real dirt was.
Of course naming names in a possible deal that fell through would be a real team disrupter, but if he had no interest at all, then why not say so.
I'm hearing it was a Bush conspiracy!
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Post by blaise on Jan 29, 2004 23:24:04 GMT -5
Could it be that Tampa Bay just didn't want to trade within the same Conference, especially to a team they might meet in the playoffs?
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Post by BadCompany on Jan 30, 2004 14:43:27 GMT -5
That's the craziest thing I've ever heard!! Doc!!! I've known you for a long time, and I've NEVER seen you like this!! EVER! This, this... this is just insane!!!  ;D |
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Post by Cranky on Jan 30, 2004 16:48:21 GMT -5
Brilliant! That's what I think of this trade too! |
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Post by PTH on Jan 30, 2004 18:05:10 GMT -5
That's the craziest thing I've ever heard!! Doc!!! I've known you for a long time, and I've NEVER seen you like this!! EVER! This, this... this is just insane!!! ;D I agree, I think the Doc's gone over the edge this time ! |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 30, 2004 20:17:15 GMT -5
Yeah.. well.... ya know... the boss poped in... the nerve of this guy! sheesh, like I only have WORK to do during the day...  Anyhoo.. Here's what I wanted to say but first a little quote about Svitov I got from a guy that I consider knows his hockey better than most (don't ask he ain't a media person) "...He is immensely skilled, and easily the most talented player on the Dogs roster. Only Ron Hainsey came close, and that's saying a lot, given how good the Bulldogs are. Svitov is big, an excellent stick handler, and a very good skater. He can dominate, at least at the AHL level...." Then the guy goes on with some doubts he has about the character of Svitov... So. #1: This guy is a top level youngster that can fetch a Sydor and Tampa wanted a Sydor. Don't even wonder about Rivet, if Sydor is the asking price than a Rivet won't even get you to first base, even you add Bulis. If you're looking for a Dodge Viper, you're not looking for a Ford Explorer and even if you add a very nice Toyota Corolla, you still don't get a Viper. See what I mean... The only guy that could have been interesting to Tampa, IMO, is Markov and I think I would want more than Svitov for Markov. So although there is a huge need on this team for a Svitov, I don't think there was a fit for a trade between Tampa and Montreal. #2 Let's not overdo the chemistry thingy. We're a bad team, very well coached with a GM that got the team focused. Changing guys like Rivet wouldn't change much to the results we can expect, even on the short term, IMO. Considering how this team is built and the kind of prospects that are in the farm right now, I think we WILL see some changes in order to land us the kind of elements that are lacking at pretty much every levels in this organization. |
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Post by seventeen on Jan 31, 2004 1:38:42 GMT -5
I think that's a very good assessment Doc. Your buddy has it right. While I don't have quite that high an opinion of Sydor, he is a much more solid player than Rivet. And ain't no way I'm giving up Markov for Svitov. Not until Svitov starts showing a lot more (and Hainsey is ready to move up).
Now...get back to work.
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Post by jkr on Jan 31, 2004 22:01:12 GMT -5
#2 Let's not overdo the chemistry thingy. We're a bad team, very well coached with a GM that got the team focused. Doc, I can't agree with your assessment of the Habs as a "bad" team. I consider Chicago, Pittsburgh & Washington to be bad teams. At the beginning of the season I felt Montreal was a 500 team, just average. I am sticking to that but I believe they are overachieving because of the management & coaching factors you mentioned in your post. |
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Post by BadCompany on Jan 31, 2004 23:13:18 GMT -5
Here's what I wanted to say but first a little quote about Svitov I got from a guy that I consider knows his hockey better than most (don't ask he ain't a media person) "...He is immensely skilled, and easily the most talented player on the Dogs roster. Only Ron Hainsey came close, and that's saying a lot, given how good the Bulldogs are. Svitov is big, an excellent stick handler, and a very good skater. He can dominate, at least at the AHL level...." Then the guy goes on with some doubts he has about the character of Svitov... CLEARLY your friend is insane. I mean, like, certifiable. Severe psychology problems. You can tell by the way he dots his eyes, and crosses his teas. I'm guessing he has a list of names somewhere, and believe you me, you don't want to be on that list. That's a bell tower list, if you know what I mean. <bang bang shoot 'em up, just like a firing squad> I don't mean to alarm anyone, but a guy like that is dangerous, with a capital D (and I'm not talking Gonchar, Witt and Doig). Svitov. Sheesh. Now if you'll excuse me, the voices in my head told me its time to clean my guns. |
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Post by seventeen on Feb 3, 2004 0:14:40 GMT -5
It's only one game, but I thought I'd check out how Svitov did tonight against Columbus. Twelve minutes, -2, 33% on face-offs. The score was a 3-3 tie, by the way.
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