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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 14, 2012 17:21:40 GMT -5
Twenty children dead in the latest shooting spree in the USA. Six adults, including the gunman's mother, were killed as well. The Second Amendment to the (USA) Consitution reads, “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” Somewhere along the way the meaning was bastardized to reflect, ' ... the right of the people to keep and bear Arms ...' period. How did that happen? Weapons are too accessable to people in the USA. People who have absolutely no idea how to use or respect firearms. And no one in Washington with any kind of clout will do anything about it. link |
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Post by franko on Dec 14, 2012 17:36:03 GMT -5
well, Dis, I'm sure that there is going to be a lot of discussion up-coming, including the need for the return of the gun registry in Canada, but I'm not sure that the availability of weapons is the problem [and note that I said I'm not sure, so don't shoot yell at me.
there are a lot of weapons in Canada and we don't have the same problem [though one shooting death is too many] . . . it is a matter of attitude and culture . . . and a whole lot of lack of respect for other people.
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Post by Cranky on Dec 14, 2012 17:51:32 GMT -5
Absolutely horrified that children were involved. There is no humanity left in him and honestly, I like to personally put a noose on his neck.
Unfortunately, the 'guns did it' screamers will not stop screaming. Crazy is crazy....and if it isn't gun, it's a propane tanker. Or something else. Or anything else.
Crazy is nothing but crazy.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 14, 2012 18:16:31 GMT -5
I put something up on my FB page if anyone is intersted. Quite the discussion right now. I've got gun owners, gun opposers et al giving their two cents worth.
You might be right, Franko. Attitudes differ on both sides of the border.
Cheers.
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 14, 2012 18:32:32 GMT -5
The Second Amendment, unfortunately, can't be looked at as "it was written when single-shot flintlocks" were the norm. Its intent is to maintain the rights for a viable militia to form should an uprising be necessary...i.e. against government and other possible repressive forces. So, as those in power positions have access to advancements in weaponry....so too should the people (militia).
But, as HA says, freaky brain chemistry is freaky brain chemistry...and they will find some weapon to carry out their delusion. Sadly, the guns make it so easy for them.
As Dennis Miller said, "You can't save everybody, folks...just try to not be living next to them when they go off."
And that about sums it up for me.
Horrific.
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Post by Polarice on Dec 14, 2012 18:49:10 GMT -5
I was watching the footage when I went home for lunch....I had to change the channel it was getting hard to watch.
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Post by Cranky on Dec 14, 2012 19:19:22 GMT -5
Just for once......I like to express my hatred for that kind of inhuman garbage without having to defend the tool he was using.
Death sentence. Slow death sentence. Death. That is all I want for him or them from Santa.
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 14, 2012 20:27:39 GMT -5
How far away are we from that shooter? A brain injury? Mental illness/faulty chemistry? Indoctrination? Traumatic event? Yes, a murderous rampage is horrendous, but it's just another level of a dysfunctional brain. Easy to say that we'd never do such a thing, because we're fortunate enough to have brains that function properly. If we were him, we'd have acted exactly as he did.
Brain research...most of the answers lie there. Who knows, if neuroscience someday finds definitive indicators of sociopathic behaviour, every person might have to undergo periodic brain scans...and if one or several of those indicators show up, treatment begins.
While such perpetrators have to be taken out of free society, I'm not sure we'd be so quick to call them inhuman garbage if they were a family member or close friend. We'd want them put away, perhaps for life, but there'd also be some level of wanting to understand what went wrong.
We're just primates, folks.
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Post by Skilly on Dec 17, 2012 12:23:10 GMT -5
The Second Amendment, unfortunately, can't be looked at as "it was written when single-shot flintlocks" were the norm. Its intent is to maintain the rights for a viable militia to form should an uprising be necessary...i.e. against government and other possible repressive forces. So, as those in power positions have access to advancements in weaponry....so too should the people (militia). But, as HA says, freaky brain chemistry is freaky brain chemistry...and they will find some weapon to carry out their delusion. Sadly, the guns make it so easy for them. As Dennis Miller said, "You can't save everybody, folks...just try to not be living next to them when they go off." And that about sums it up for me. Horrific. The thing that always gets me about the Second Amendment, and people in favour of it, is that they always fail to mention/highlight the most crucial aspect of it ... "well regulated". The United States has arguably the worst gun control laws of any developed nation. That, in itself, breaks the Second Amendment. |
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 17, 2012 15:56:19 GMT -5
True, Skilly.
Another thing...a very paranoid gun culture has developed. Trust issues big-time. And if all your neighbors have guns, are you going to be the only one without them? A vicious escalation.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 17, 2012 16:17:00 GMT -5
The thing that has to change is the cultural paradigm that seems to be, 'every American's right to not only keep weapons in their homes, but loaded, unsecured weapons in their homes.'
I'll validate that with a short story. Mrs Dis and I were staying at an American military leave centre in Germany. I was talking with an American soldier while I was there and eventually our conversation turned to weapons (two soldiers taking ... go figure the odds). Somewhere in that talk he made it a to point to tell me that his daddy had three weapons in his home and all three were loaded. He was adamant and this is a true story.
So, how do you change a centuries-old societal norm that seems to be every American's right to own a firearm? Changing the Second Amendment is all well and fine, but they'll first have to look at the Fourteenth Amendment before that, which states:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Obama said something has to change, but changing a paradigm is easier said than done.
Cheers.
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 18, 2012 22:11:46 GMT -5
Twenty children dead in the latest shooting spree in the USA. Six adults, including the gunman's mother, were killed as well. The Second Amendment to the (USA) Consitution reads, “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” Somewhere along the way the meaning was bastardized to reflect, ' ... the right of the people to keep and bear Arms ...' period. How did that happen? Weapons are too accessable to people in the USA. People who have absolutely no idea how to use or respect firearms. And no one in Washington with any kind of clout will do anything about it. linkI've been thinking quite a bit about this point, Dis....and it's clear that a re-working of the Second Amendment is necessary. The primary objective (as the Amendment clearly states) of the citizenry being guaranteed the right to keep and bear arms, was to be able to form a well-regulated militia. In 1791, when the Amendment was passed...and when the first U.S. census was conducted by Thomas Jefferson....there were only 13 States and the Southwest Territory. Therefore, a well-regulated militia was no doubt easier to form and regulate....especially with single-shot flintlocks and smoothbore muskets. As Skilly asserts, perhaps "well-regulated" didn't just pertain to the militia, but was meant to be applied to arms' ownership and training as well. The Amendment could've been clearer on that point. Like you say, Dis....the "well-regulated militia" appears to have been all but removed from their psyche. So, in a sense, these people HAVE ALREADY re-written it....by subconsciously erasing the first half. I don't think the forefathers intended the Second Amendment to lead to a paranoid gun culture of 311 million armed to the teeth with assault rifles. (Not that everyone is armed to the teeth, but...) --------------------------------------------- The only argument to that point: How well can a militia protect a free state when it's using BB guns to combat an enemy armed with AK47s? I get that, too. "You control our guns too much and we're sitting ducks." Pretty much the mantra of NRA die-hards like Ted Nugent. And it's not just a hostile takeover, e.g., that provokes such intense adherence...it's also needing to feel protected against societal problems that manifest in crime. That's another issue. It's a tough one, that's for sure. |
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Post by CentreHice on Jan 8, 2013 22:49:50 GMT -5
Alex Jones going to town on Piers Morgan. Wow.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 9, 2013 0:07:52 GMT -5
Right on, CH. I was watching these clips earlier today. Jones is an idiot. Morgan was controlled but he's not much better. I only caught of bit of his show with the NRA and I didn't think he was all that convincing. Morgan is all about Morgan.
I think you and Skilly have some good points. At various points in history, knowing how and when to use a firearms commonplace probably out of necessity. Nowadays the threat isn't from outside the borders but within.
I haven't had the time, but I wanted to compare our gun laws with the US gun laws. They're both easy finds on Google and briefly skimmed through them. I'm going to have to know what to do here in Ontario shortly. I have a family shotgun that's coming my way and a Lee Enfield Mark IV that's been offered to me should the owner suddenly pass on. Both no charge.
And while we're on the topic of guns, a local military surplus dealer told me that he had a fully-functional Martini Henry 'that's got my name on it.' It wasn't as hard a sell to Mrs Dis as I thought. It will come with an original bayonet and scabbard. I won't be paying the asking price so it will be "Pawn Stars" dialog all the way.
So, from having no firearms in the house to a shotgun and possibly two rifles. I've got some research and work to do.
Cheers.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 9, 2013 10:12:31 GMT -5
"You're the minority my friend ... you're the minority" (right at the end)
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 9, 2013 10:21:50 GMT -5
"You're an unbelievably stupid man ..." This is what I meant when I said that Morgan is no better than Jones. Morgan is all about his ratings.
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Post by CentreHice on Jan 9, 2013 10:35:35 GMT -5
Yep, I fully agree with the Second Amendment...seeing as its intent is to safeguard against oppressive government/forces. When someone in power orders you to turn in your guns, what follows isn't going to be pretty. The root causes with these mass shootings are ones of mental health issues and slapdash gun storage. I'm not up on restrictions or lack of such in the accumulation of a vast arsenal. It's not as simple as "guns are the problem", even though their use is the most devastating. On the same day as the Newtown tragedy...a deranged man in China ran amok with a knife at an elementary school, wounding 23 children. CNNHistory is full of such delusion and subsequent violence. Again, Dennis Miller's quote is harsh but true. |
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Post by Cranky on Jan 9, 2013 14:56:48 GMT -5
Yep, I fully agree with the Second Amendment...seeing as its intent is to safeguard against oppressive government/forces. When someone in power orders you to turn in your guns, what follows isn't going to be pretty. The root causes with these mass shootings are ones of mental health issues and slapdash gun storage. I'm not up on restrictions or lack of such in the accumulation a vast arsenal. It's not as simple as "guns are the problem", even though their use is the most devastating. On the same day as the Newtown tragedy...a deranged man in China ran amok with a knife at an elementary school, wounding 23 children. CNNHistory is full of such delusion and subsequent violence. Again, Dennis Miller's quote is harsh but true. When someone agrees with the me down to the last letter, I get suspicious. Question.... Do you have two bumps that some people mistaken for horns? Do you believe that sheep should only be be eaten, but never followed? Do you believe that you have to question everything and believe in nothing? If you say yes to these, mom wants to know where you've been. (BTW...I have written this often enough. The VERY FIRST THING the colonels did when the Greek junta took over is send soldiers and cops into houses to collect guns. I know this because at thirteen, I had a loaded rifle pointed to my head with the menacing question of...... "do you have guns in the house?") |
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Post by CentreHice on Jan 9, 2013 20:51:35 GMT -5
Sorry to hear you had to go through that ordeal, HA.
The U.S.A. isn't without its warts, but the Founding Fathers deserve much credit.
The First and Second Amendments are paramount to freedom.
Separation of church and state, freedom of speech and the press, and the right to keep and bear arms, just in case.
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Post by CentreHice on Jan 9, 2013 22:29:37 GMT -5
I'm sure it isn't pleasant to recount...but thanks for sharing.
These stories should be heard, in order to realize how truly fortunate we are to live somewhere even remotely civil in this world.
Which is why we have to be on guard should someone/group wish to take it away, no matter how "peaceful" they may be cloaked.
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