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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Oct 10, 2004 12:41:26 GMT -5
The Bozolator churned out:
07-10-2004
Mathias Brunet
La Presse
Brantford
Forward Andrei Kostitsyn will have good and bad evenings at the beginning of his career in the AHL.
The 19 year old, drafted with the 10th pick by the Canadiens in 2003, must adapt to a new environment, a style of play completely different from that practised in Russia, and he must get by with people who do not speak his language.
The other great hope of the Tricolore, Alexander Perezhogin, lived a similar experience last year before exploding in the second half of the season and becoming one of the best players in the American League. He would probably be in Montreal this season if not for the lockout and his one year suspension
Kostitsyn had one of those difficult evenings Wednesday in Brantford, stronghold of Wayne Gretzky, in his third exhibition game with Hamilton.
His club was defeated 3-2 by Rochester, most of whose veterans did not play
He created some beautiful chances to score in the third period thanks to his remarkable shooting, but one didn't see notice him much on the whole. He nevertheless picked up an assist on the second Bulldogs goal, skilfully set up by Corey Locke.
Kostitsyn was eclipsed Wednesday evening by another first round choice from 2003, Thomas Vanek, a large right winger of 6 feet 2 inches and 208 pounds drafted fourth by Buffalo. Vanek, a frightening scorer with the University of Minnesota, counted a beautiful goal on a breakaway and he set up the winning goal in the third period. The young man finished the evening with three points.
"Andrei will have to learn how to give 100% for all 45 seconds of his shifts, to rest on the bench and be ready for his next shift", mentioned his coach Doug Jarvis after the game. "Positioning on the ice and the other aspects of his play are secondary for the moment. What I want to see of him at this time is the eagerness and desire to achieve. He shows it for stretches, but we want this to happen every time that he is on the ice."
Kostitsyn began the match on the right-hand side of two veterans, center Benoît Dusablon, who belonged to the Rangers last year, and Steve Ott, first choice of the Stars in 2000 who spent the whole 2003-2004 season in the NHL.
In the third, Jarvis put the young man with Tomas Plekanec and Chris Higgins in the hope of seeing him freewheel.
A significant role
Plekanec, the Bulldogs leading scorer last year, could have a significant role to play in the development of the athlete from Belarus.
"I played often with Perezhogin last year and we were paired together for good in the playoffs. There are many similarities between the two. I do not know who will be my right winger this year, and in any event the coach likes to modify his lines, but if Kostitsyn is on my line, that's fine by me. I have seen him work for a week, he is solid in puck possession and has a phenomenal shot."
Plekanec is a fine prospect for the NHL. Unfortunately for him, he is the victim of the significant number of small centers in the Canadiens organization. Saku Koivu and Mike Ribeiro are not very physically imposing and Plekanec, 5 feet 10 inches and 200 pounds, will probably continue his career elsewhere in the NHL in a few years.
"I do not want to think so far ahead", says he. "I know that the Canadiens acquired another center this summer in Radek Bonk, but that didn't upset me. I didn't really think about it. I simply want to concentrate on my development."
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Post by Habit on Oct 27, 2004 9:41:37 GMT -5
Thought this would be an interesting followup to Mr. B's Article:
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Post by blaise on Oct 27, 2004 18:52:15 GMT -5
The fact that Kostitsyn was outplayed by Vanek at this point doesn't concern me. Vanek was a highly regarded #4 in a very strong 2003 draft. Does everyone seriously believe that Kostitsyn was the top prospect in that draft? I'm content that the Habs got a really talented player with great potential (as did most of the teams that picked ahead of them and some that picked after them).
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Post by seventeen on Oct 27, 2004 19:38:03 GMT -5
Does everyone seriously believe that Kostitsyn was the top prospect in that draft? . He was my favourite choice (along with Phaneuf or Parise) and that would have been the case if we'd had the #1 choice in the draft. Right now, despite his lack of experience, I wouldn't trade him for any other guy in the draft except Phaneuf. So call me crazy. |
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Oct 27, 2004 19:47:10 GMT -5
He was my favourite choice (along with Phaneuf or Parise) and that would have been the case if we'd had the #1 choice in the draft. Right now, despite his lack of experience, I wouldn't trade him for any other guy in the draft except Phaneuf. So call me crazy. Agreed, by the time the draft got to pick #9 I would have taken Phaneuf but just knew deep down that the ever-huggable Sutter would never let him pass...its that Alberta mafia thing, I tell ya. As it was, I was glad with seeing management taking the risky home-run like pick with Kosty over the safe pick like Getzlaf, a name that many were bantering about, or Parise, who was still left at that pick. |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Oct 27, 2004 20:14:27 GMT -5
I'm glad that the Habs were fortunate enough to be able to capitalize on the lack of chutzpah evidenced by a number of teams that chose ahead of them in both the 2003 and 2004 drafts.
Kostitsyn was available at pick #10. Most pundits had him ranked as one of the top 5 players in the draft. Good for us that we have Dr David Mulder and the other teams don't. Also satisfying that the Habs drafting team has cojones and the strength of their convictions (and that those convictions are based on uncommonly sound talent assessment).
Chipchura started the 2003-04 season ranked as the #1 NA skater. He fell to #4 as result of a nagging groin injury. He was available at #18 because many let the injury cloud their judgement of the player.
I am positive that the Habs snagged 2 bona fide top 6 forwards with their last 2 first round picks.
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Post by blaise on Oct 27, 2004 20:48:52 GMT -5
He was my favourite choice (along with Phaneuf or Parise) and that would have been the case if we'd had the #1 choice in the draft. Right now, despite his lack of experience, I wouldn't trade him for any other guy in the draft except Phaneuf. So call me crazy. I was crossing my fingers when Phaneuf was still unclaimed at #9 but Darryl Sutter immediately dashed my hopes. I wouldn't call you crazy, although there were a lot of candidates I wouldn't have been dissatisfied with. But would you really have considered Parise as a #3 overall pick? |
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Post by blaise on Oct 27, 2004 20:50:58 GMT -5
I am positive that the Habs snagged 2 bona fide top 6 forwards with their last 2 first round picks. They probably did. |
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Post by seventeen on Oct 27, 2004 22:03:23 GMT -5
But would you really have considered Parise as a #3 overall pick? Maybe not, but I really liked the comments about him. Of course, I liked him better at #10 if Kostco and Phaneuf were gone. After a year, drafting him at #3 looks better than it would have at the draft. |
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Post by blaise on Oct 27, 2004 23:15:23 GMT -5
Maybe not, but I really liked the comments about him. Of course, I liked him better at #10 if Kostco and Phaneuf were gone. After a year, drafting him at #3 looks better than it would have at the draft. Maybe he looks better than when the Devils picked him but I still wouldn't have considered him a top 10 pick. IMO he doesn't rate with Staal, Horton, Vanek, Coburn, Fleury, and a number of others. |
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Post by seventeen on Oct 28, 2004 0:57:03 GMT -5
Let's pick this up again in 6 years.  |
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Post by BadCompany on Oct 28, 2004 8:17:29 GMT -5
Good for us that we have Dr David Mulder and the other teams don't. I like Kostitsyn, and I'm very happy we have him, but I'm not convinced his medical history had anything to do with his "drop" to number 10. If you look at the 9 guys drafted ahead of him, you see 9 very, very, very good prospects. In fact, I'm not convinced you could trade Kostitsyn for any one of those guys. No knock on Andrei, just that it happened to be a very, very good draft: 1) Marc Andre Fleury: One of those highly rated goalies in a long time. 2-3) Eric Staal and Nathan Horton: Two power-forward types, who both made the jump to the NHL as 18 year olds, and who both scored double-digits in goals, for very bad teams. 4) Nikolai Zherdev: Kostitsyn's teammate, he too jumped to the NHL as an 18 year old, and scored 13 goals, despite missing a third of the season. Will be one of the best goal scorers in the league, I think. 5) Thomas Vanek: Pure goal scorer, who is doing nothing to diminish his high picking. 6) Milan Michalek: A gifted two-way player, perhaps the only guy in the top 10 who I wouldn't have taken over Kostitsyn. Also, incidentally, the guy who reminds me the most of Chipchura (Chipchura at 18 in a weak draft is good, Chipchura at 6 in a strong draft...) 7) Ryan Suter: Rock solid defenseman, with good genes. Doesn't get much press, because of where he plays, but if he were in the WHL, we'd be comparing him to Phaneuf. 8) Braydon Coburn: Huge, swift skating defenseman, with Jay Bo potential. More of a project than either Suter or Phaneuf, but a safe pick in that he will play in the NHL, and the upside is huge. 6'5, 225 lbs, currently has 10 points in 12 games in the WHL. As a defenseman. 9) Dion Phaneuf: Future back-bone of the Flames defense. Scott Stevens junior. I'd love to have this guy. 10) Andrei Kostitsyin. So, I mean if you look at the list, I don't think there are any teams ahead of the Habs who are sitting there thinking "man, did we ever blow it, we should have listened to our doctors and taken Kostitsyin..." |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Oct 28, 2004 9:20:59 GMT -5
I like Kostitsyn, and I'm very happy we have him, but I'm not convinced his medical history had anything to do with his "drop" to number 10. If you look at the 9 guys drafted ahead of him, you see 9 very, very, very good prospects. In fact, I'm not convinced you could trade Kostitsyn for any one of those guys. No knock on Andrei, just that it happened to be a very, very good draft:... My point being that Kostitsyn would have been drafted higher if it weren't for awareness/ignorance of his medical condition. At least that was the view of people like Bob McKenzie and Kyle Woodlief. The guys picked before him will all as well likely become very, very good NHLers. My point was that either Mulder is a better doctor than those retained by the teams that drafted ahead of the Habs, or that those teams' hockey people perhaps didn't heed their doctors' advice re Kostitsyn. Anyway, I too am very glad that we now have him on our side. More heartening is the fact that whatever Jarvis has been whispering in his ear after most shifts has improved his play and his ice time. |
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Post by BadCompany on Oct 28, 2004 9:50:25 GMT -5
My point being that Kostitsyn would have been drafted higher if it weren't for awareness/ignorance of his medical condition. At least that was the view of people like Bob McKenzie and Kyle Woodlief... My point was that either Mulder is a better doctor than those retained by the teams that drafted ahead of the Habs, or that those teams' hockey people perhaps didn't heed their doctors' advice re Kostitsyn. These are the points that I disagree with though. I'm not sure Kostitsyin would have been drafted higher, even if he didn't have a medical condition. In fact, I think teams looked at him, said, "good player, medical condition is no concern, we still like Staal/Horton/Phaneuf better." Would you trade Kostitsyin for Phaneuf? For Horton? For Coburn? For Zherdev? I think you could make a pretty good argument for trading Kostitsyin for at least 6, and maybe all 9 of the guys drafted ahead of him. Personally, I would take Horton, Zherdev, Phaneuf, Suter, Staal and Coburn in a trade straight up for Andrei (in that order of preference), and I see Andrei being the equal of Vanek and Fleury, in terms of trade value. I wouldn't make that trade, as I see no benefit to the Habs, but they are probably equal in value. Only Michalek, in my opinion, is inferior enough to Kostitsyin for me to pass on. And I happen to like Michalek, I just like Kostitsyin more. Again, I don't think any of the teams ahead of Montreal passed on him because of his medical condition, despite what Bobby Mac or Kyle Woodlief say. No way of proving that, of course, but we aren't living in the dark ages. Everybody knows epilepsy isn't all that serious a concern (ask Derek Morris). |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Oct 28, 2004 10:04:25 GMT -5
These are the points that I disagree with though. I'm not sure Kostitsyin would have been drafted higher, even if he didn't have a medical condition. In fact, I think teams looked at him, said, "good player, medical condition is no concern, we still like Staal/Horton/Phaneuf better." Perhaps, but bear in mind that there are still NHL teams without goalie coaches. I don't see anyone clearly superior to Kostitsyn in that group. Degrees of enlightenment are varied amongst NHL management teams. It would not surprise me at all to discover that there was ignorance concerning Kostitsyn's condition. As I remember, during the combines in Toronto, before the draft, Montreal, at the direction of Dr Mulder, was the only team to put Kostitsyn through a battery of neurological tests. |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Oct 28, 2004 10:18:12 GMT -5
A very reliable source has said that there is a health concern with Kastsitsyn, one that could have a very negative effect on his draft standing depending on how well he grades out at the NHL’s combine in Toronto next week. Teams will get an ample look at him physically, and if the rumor is true, then you could see the No. 3 European prospect take a significant fall down the board on draft day. - www.hockeyjournal.com/bruins/200305/draft28.html* Our choice for biggest gainer on the charts is Andrei Kastsitsyn, the Belarussian winger who generally arrives at the net with all the speed and subtlety of a freight train. He was already high on our list, but after his valiant effort for a brutally undermanned squad, there's no way we can keep him out of our top 10, so he enters at #6.- www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/columnist/woodlief/2003-01-27-woodlief_x.htm* Duneeden Iowa: Kyle, If you had to choose one player from the 2003 draft to build a team around who would it be? Why? Thanks in advance.
Kyle Woodlief: If I were the GM of an NHL team and I was absolutely and thoroughly convinced that Andrei Kastsitsyn's medical condition (epilepsy) was permanently under control through medication, he would be my choice. For me, the way he plays the game is just full of intensity and desire. It's one thing to have skills (and Kastsitsyn has an excellent skill level), but when you combine that with some real fire and commitment, then you have, in my opinion, the best real gamebreaker in the draft.
Toronto, Canada: Who's the more exciting player, Zherdev or Kastsitsyn? Is Kastsitsyn's epilesy gonna affect his hockey career?
Kyle Woodlief: Excellent question. In terms of pure dazzling, crowd pleasing moves, Zherdev is the most magical stickhandler in this year's draft, and he'll do things with the puck that will make fans in the stands go "Ooooohh" and "Aaaaahhh." So in that sense, Zherdev is the most offensively exciting player in the draft. But the combination of Kastsitsyn's skills, production, fire, and intensity make him the guy that I personally most like to watch; I admire his passion and playing style so much that I can't take my eyes off him when he steps on the ice.
As for the other part of your question, I don't know if the epilepsy will affect Kastsitsyn's career in the longterm, but I do think it's going to affect is draft status in the short term. He will go lower than he ordinarily would out of NHL teams' (understandable) fear.- www.usatoday.com/community/chat_03/2003-06-17-woodlief.htm
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Post by BadCompany on Oct 28, 2004 12:50:18 GMT -5
So who, then, should Kostitsyin been drafted ahead of, and why?
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Oct 28, 2004 13:17:53 GMT -5
So who, then, should Kostitsyin been drafted ahead of, and why? Don't know and don't really care. Woodlief apparently would have picked Kostitsyn from all the 2003 draftees to build a team around - provided, of course, that he was convinced that his medical condition was under control. That Kostitsyn, the #3 ranked European skater and #6 ranked over all skater according to the 2 sources I quoted above, was available to the Habs and that they also did not pass on him because they had qualms about his medical condition (which in effect wasn't properly treated until July 2004) is for me what counts. * Habs' prospect treated for epilepsyTSN.ca Staff 7/27/2004La Presse in Montreal reports that Canadiens' top prospect Andrei Kastsitsyn has been the vicitm of several epileptic attacks over the last few weeks, which includes time spent at the team's annual summer development camp. Kastsitsyn was kept in Montreal after camp to keep his condition under control. Team doctors assured that the condition will not affect his career as long as it is kept in check with medication.The 19-year-old forward will be be kept in Montreal until he is cleared to leave. The Canadiens selected the Belarussian right-winger 10th overall at the 2003 NHL Draft. Team doctor David Mulder attended tests conducted by the NHL doctors prior to the draft to determine his fitness and came away convinced that he had the problem under control.Kastitsyn has played for Red Army in Moscow, as well as the Belarus team at both the world junior championships and the senior worlds. |
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Post by BadCompany on Oct 28, 2004 14:02:08 GMT -5
Don't know and don't really care. But you insisted that "Kostitsyn would have been drafted higher if it weren't for awareness/ignorance of his medical condition." I still don't think that is the case. That Kostitsyn, the #3 ranked European skater and #6 ranked over all skater according to the 2 sources I quoted above, was available to the Habs and that they also did not pass on him because they had qualms about his medical condition (which in effect wasn't properly treated until July 2004) is for me what counts. Counts for me, too. But still doesn't mean that every other team picking in the top 10 passed on him because of his medical condition. Falling from 6 to 10 is not a huge plunge, and #3 ranked European skater is nice, but 2003 was noted for being a strong North American draft. Fleury, Staal, Horton, Phaneuf, Coburn, Suter - even Vanek was playing in the US, and thus not listed in the European rankings. A global ranking list would have had Kostitsyin somewhere in the 6-10 range, irregardless of his epilepsy. Which is where he was picked. Habs' prospect treated for epilepsyTSN.ca Staff 7/27/2004La Presse in Montreal reports that Canadiens' top prospect Andrei Kastsitsyn has been the vicitm of several epileptic attacks over the last few weeks, which includes time spent at the team's annual summer development camp. Kastsitsyn was kept in Montreal after camp to keep his condition under control. Team doctors assured that the condition will not affect his career as long as it is kept in check with medication.The 19-year-old forward will be be kept in Montreal until he is cleared to leave. The Canadiens selected the Belarussian right-winger 10th overall at the 2003 NHL Draft. Team doctor David Mulder attended tests conducted by the NHL doctors prior to the draft to determine his fitness and came away convinced that he had the problem under control.Kastitsyn has played for Red Army in Moscow, as well as the Belarus team at both the world junior championships and the senior worlds. So? Everyone knew he has a medical condition. Nothing in that article stating that Atlanta, Florida, Pittsburgh, etc, passed on him because of it. Simply states that the Habs checked him out, found he was okay, and drafted him when he was available. You stated that he fell because of his medical condition. So tell me then, from whom did he fall? Who did not pick him because of his condition? Who took an obviously inferior player, because they were afraid of Kostitsyin's epilepsy? I like Kostitsyin, I really do, but lets not get carried away. There were 9 players picked ahead of him, and not one of them was picked because Kostitsyin has a medical condition... |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Oct 28, 2004 14:32:23 GMT -5
But you insisted that "Kostitsyn would have been drafted higher if it weren't for awareness/ignorance of his medical condition." I still don't think that is the case. I still insist and think that it was the case. I never claimed that. It's relative. Falling from 230 to 275 is not a big plunge. From 6 to 10 is; especially when the Habs were surprised to see him available at #10. Sources? But as the article makes clear, he was not OK and thus fears pertaining to his health had a foundation. The Habs gambled by picking him. Other teams didn't. I have no concrete proof from the teams themselves. However, there was enough concern voiced by people close to the game in pre-draft assessments and interviews to convince me that this did happen. There was also the matter of raves about his hockey talent. If Kyle Woodlief, who I presume knows a bit about hockey and who you have been fond of quoting in a favourable light in the past, says that Kostitsyn of *all* the 2003 draftees would be the one whom he would build a team around... You have no proof, only a list of players taken before Kostitsyn. If disagreeing with you is getting carried away, then so be it. |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Oct 28, 2004 14:54:40 GMT -5
Kastsitsyn's illness doesn't scare CanadiensThe Canadiens might have gotten the steal of the first round, taking Andrei Kastsitsyn of Belarus with the 10th overall pick. The wing was generally rated among the draft's top five players in terms of total skills but apparently was shunned by some teams because of a medical condition that is believed to be epilepsy."It's not a problem. I don't even think about it," Kastsitsyn said. "I think it's a mistake, and I'll try to prove they were wrong not to draft me earlier." - www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/draft/2003-06-23-suter-notes_x.htm
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Post by BadCompany on Oct 28, 2004 15:10:50 GMT -5
You're starting to sound like Dubya, arguing without any arguments... I still insist and think that it was the case. But there is nothing to suggest that is true. The nine players picked ahead of Kostitsyin are all excellent prospects, and any independent ranking would state that most, if not all, are still considered "better" prospects. The Hockey News listed Kostitsyin 13th, behind Phaneuf, Vanek, Paris, Suter, Carter, Michalek, Coburn and Getzlaf, and they weren't taking into consideration players from the 2003 draft who were already in the NHL (such as Fleury, Horton, Staal and Zherdev). www.wowhockey.com/article1777.htmlHow then, did nine teams pass on him? Obviously they felt they had better picks, no? That can be the only explanation if they didn't pass on him because of his medical condition... It's relative. Falling from 230 to 275 is not a big plunge. From 6 to 10 is; especially when the Habs were surprised to see him available at #10. Falling from 6-10 is not a huge plunge in a draft year when everyone agreed the top 15 were all more or less interchangeable. And every team is "surprised" their guy was available when they picked - its standard draft speak, right up there with "he has to work on his skating and get stronger." My mistake. Most sources had him outside the top ten (and still do), aside from Woodlief. espn.go.com/nhl/draft2003/s/bios11-20.html 13\ www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCM/is_8_31/ai_102103256/pg_2 Hockey Digest, outside top 10 www.tsn.ca/columnists/bob_mckenzie.asp?id=36736But as the article makes clear, he was not OK and thus fears pertaining to his health had a foundation. The Habs gambled by picking him. Other teams didn't. Picking him 1st would have been a gamble. Taking 9 other, equally good, and generally considered better, players is not. Again, why is picking Nathan Horton over Kostitsyin a mistake? I would trade Andrei for Horton in a heartbeat. I have no concrete proof from the teams themselves. However, there was enough concern voiced by people close to the game in pre-draft assessments and interviews to convince me that this did happen. If he had of fallen into the mid-20s (as Robbie Schremp did) then I would believe you. But "falling" to #10 - when most rankings had him lower - is not falling. Especially not in a super-deep draft year that was 2003. There was also the matter of raves about his hockey talent. If Kyle Woodlief, who I presume knows a bit about hockey and who you have been fond of quoting in a favourable light in the past, says that Kostitsyn of *all* the 2003 draftees would be the one whom he would build a team around... One man's opinion. And while I value that opinion, it is not the Spoken Word From on High. He raved about just about every other player in the top 10 too, at one point or another. You have no proof, only a list of players taken before Kostitsyn. According to you, those players are inferior to Kostitsyin, and the only thing that stopped NHL teams from taking the superior player was Kostitsyin's health. Since there is no way to prove this, we can only look at the players taken. Not one of them is inferior to Kostitsyin, and most would say they are all superior. You insist he "fell" despite the fact that aside from Red Line, every other ranking had him in the mid-teens, if not lower. By that logic, he actually rose. If disagreeing with you is getting carried away, then so be it. Over-hyping a prospect is getting carried away. He's a great player, and I'm happy to have him, but we did not "luck into him" because every other team has incompetent medical teams. They just liked better players better. Nine players were taken during Kostitsyin's "mighty fall." If medical reasons were the only reasons he was still available to Montreal at #10, then logically at least one of the players in the top 9 is inferior to him. Who? |
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Post by BadCompany on Oct 28, 2004 15:24:00 GMT -5
The wing was generally rated among the draft's top five players in terms of total skills but apparently was shunned by some teams because of a medical condition that is believed to be epilepsy. Daugher of Time. Who is writing it, why are they writing it, and where are they getting their information? Question everything. Its like the Myth of the Canadiens Getting All French Players and Thus Winning Every Cup. There is no actual evidence to back this up - indeed, its wrong - but its been re-printed enough by people too lazy to do their own homework that it just gets parrotted around by people who should know better. "Apparently shunned by some teams." Who? Nine teams picked ahead of Kostitsyin, which teams shunned him? If this is true, there should be at least one player that everyone looks at and says "if Kostitsyin doesn't have epilepsy, he doesn't get picked there." There isn't. All nine players deserved to be in the top 10. All nine are still considered better prospects. Some players in the 11-20 range deserved to be in the top 10 and some of them are considered to be better prospects too. Robbie Schremp fell because of his attitude. If Schremp doesn't have an attitude, then he gets picked in front of 10 other guys, easily. I could name them. If Kostitsyin doesn't have epilepsy, who does he get picked in front of? |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Oct 28, 2004 16:35:19 GMT -5
But there is nothing to suggest that is true. There's plenty to suggest that it is true. I've quoted sources to that effect. So what? That has absolutely nothing to do with the effect of Kostitsyn's health on his draft status. Nice atempt at misdirection. If you want to believe so, it can seem like the only possiblity. However, open your mind to the possibility that some teams were concerned about Kostitsyn's health and therefore did not pick him and that some teams prefferred another player. |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Oct 28, 2004 16:58:34 GMT -5
There is no actual evidence to back this up - indeed, its wrong - but its been re-printed enough by people too lazy to do their own homework that it just gets parrotted around by people who should know better. "Apparently shunned by some teams." There is however a theory circulating that no teams passed on Kostitsyn due to his health problems, despite concerns published to the contrary prior to the draft, by people with connections in the hockey world. This theory is backed by the argument that the 9 players selected before Kostitsyn are better than him and that's the *only* reason Kostitsyn was picked 10th. Sure it's possible, but where's the proof? For them to know and us to find out. Though I doubt they'd be very forthcoming. Not for you at any rate. Schremp and his "attitude". Boy did that ever get reprinted and regurgitated. Here's a different take: The Oilers have some insight into Schremp - he takes power skating in the summer with Liane Davis, the sister of scout Brad Davis and daughter of senior scout Lorne Davis.
Schremp might be headstrong and cocky, but he's not a bad kid and he loves to play the game. The Oilers are betting he'll grow up once he's in the system.
"Lorne and Brad know the kid," chief scout Kevin Prendergast said. "They have him at the house an awful lot in the summer and they know him. He's not a bad kid at all."
While the Oilers were wary of taking Schremp 14th, there was no way they could pass him up when he was still there for their 25th pick. They came into the draft wanting to improve their skill level at forward. That much, they've accomplished.
"One of the things we think is going to push us over the top is that we've got to score goals," Prendergast said. "That's one thing the kid can do. He's creative. He's got good hockey sense. There's a long way for him to go to play in the NHL, but the the basic tools are there. We've got to direct him into the system we have ... this kid loves hockey."
What happens next is up to Schremp.
"Teammates, to me, are like my brothers," Schremp said. "I've never had a problem with my teammates. That's like your family, you know? That's obvious." - slam.canoe.ca/Slam040627/nhl_edm2-sun.htmlA perceived attitude problem pushed Schremp's desirability at the draft way down. A real medical problem did the same for Kostitsyn. |
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Oct 28, 2004 18:39:27 GMT -5
The Oilers have some insight into Schremp - he takes power skating in the summer with Liane Davis, the sister of scout Brad Davis and daughter of senior scout Lorne Davis.
Schremp might be headstrong and cocky, but he's not a bad kid and he loves to play the game. The Oilers are betting he'll grow up once he's in the system.
"Lorne and Brad know the kid," chief scout Kevin Prendergast said. "They have him at the house an awful lot in the summer and they know him. He's not a bad kid at all."
While the Oilers were wary of taking Schremp 14th, there was no way they could pass him up when he was still there for their 25th pick. They came into the draft wanting to improve their skill level at forward. That much, they've accomplished.
"One of the things we think is going to push us over the top is that we've got to score goals," Prendergast said. "That's one thing the kid can do. He's creative. He's got good hockey sense. There's a long way for him to go to play in the NHL, but the the basic tools are there. We've got to direct him into the system we have ... this kid loves hockey."
What happens next is up to Schremp.
"Teammates, to me, are like my brothers," Schremp said. "I've never had a problem with my teammates. That's like your family, you know? That's obvious." - slam.canoe.ca/Slam040627/nhl_edm2-sun.htmlA perceived attitude problem pushed Schremp's desirability at the draft way down. A real medical problem did the same for Kostitsyn. Schremp has a bad attitude, but so did Ribeiro. Having some self confidence and cocky attitude is not all bad. He loves hockey and he proves it with his work ethic on the ice. He resents coaches who tell him what to do. That works against him but eventually he'll learn that going along with the coaches is better than fighting them all the time. No one questions his talent, and he is a boom or bust prospect with a real possibility of high upside and real possibility of failure. The Oilers stole him at 25 like we stole Locke in the fourth round. We passed on Hudler to take Linhart, both from Czecheslovakia, but we've all heard that refrain too many times. |
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Post by BadCompany on Oct 28, 2004 19:01:08 GMT -5
There's plenty to suggest that it is true. I've quoted sources to that effect. Saying that there are WMD does not mean there are WMD. Even if you put the word “apparently” in front of it. Question everything, my naïve clown. Where is the proof that your sources are correct? You’ve quoted several pre-draft sources, that say he might fall because of his health, but then those same sources typically had him in the 10-20 range, so by their own estimation, he actually rose on draft day. You have one source that says he “apparently” fell, but no evidence to back this up. So what? That has absolutely nothing to do with the effect of Kostitsyn's health on his draft status. Nice atempt at misdirection. Has everything to do with his status on draft day. You insist that teams passed on the better prospect, because of health issues. Yet every future analysis (so far) has Kostitsyin not only behind the 9 guys drafted ahead of him, but behind a couple of others as well. This would support my argument that the 9 guys ahead of him were/are in fact better players (so far) and that health had nothing to do with Kostitsyin’s sky-dive to #10. Nice attempt at mis-direction by claiming mis-direction though. If you want to believe so, it can seem like the only possiblity. However, open your mind to the possibility that some teams were concerned about Kostitsyn's health and therefore did not pick him and that some teams prefferred another player. Which teams? Evidence, my dear Watson, where is the evidence? We have 9 players picked ahead of Kostitsyin, all 9 of whom were ranked higher than Kostitsyin on every ranking save one, and those same 9 players are still considered better prospects, despite the fact that the medical concerns have been allayed. Go ahead. Pick a team, and tell me how the player they picked is inferior. Speculate. Go wild. Undo the top button on your pants and flex your creative talents. It will do you good. Liberate you. I know its hard to argue with no stats to back you up, but give it a try. You’ll sleep better tonight. Glad you agree. From the THN brief: Andrei Kastsitsyn could be the sleeper of this year's draft. An epileptic, his ranking and status on draft day could be determined by the willingness of an NHL team to look past the condition's stigma.
Kastsitsyn, from Belarus, will be checked out by doctors in June; what they say will carry weight in the selection process.Seems that something pushed Kostitsyn outside the top 10 for Worgo and McKenzie. Or was it general ignorance of the player? Or perhaps that pesky, undefined medical condition? Didn’t push him out at all. He was never in. In fact, Kostitsyin doesn’t even appear on Bobby Mac’s top 25, at the mid-term mark. Before concerns about his epilepsy were known. www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature.asp?fid=6306 Why? The talent is there. Besides, you just claimed that the top 15 picks were interchangeable. Something seems to be changeable. So you would not trade Kostitsyin for Horton? Help me out here, I’m trying to find out which players you consider to be weaker than Andrei K. Of course not, none of them have epilepsy. So you agree the nine players are better then? Thanks! So rare to have you actually capitulate on an argument! Again? What again? You must be thinking of someone else, if you look back over my posts in this thread you'll notice that only just now will I haved used the name Horton. Another Dubya trait, twisting words to avoid the argument. I think you’ve been following the election in the US too closely my fatigued painted face friend. I never said YOU insisted Horton was inferior, I was the one who listed the nine prospects, of which Horton is one. There were 8 others, if you recall. Seems you think at least one of those 9 is inferior to Kostitsyin, but despite my gentle prodding (I’m even wearing a rubber glove) you seem unable to even speculate on which one that may be. I’ll shed a tear for you tonight, if it makes you feel better. Well, that depends entirely on how much credence you lend to Worgo, and Mckenzie dashing off a 500 word piece on the draft at the beginning of April. Point? Nice job of proving the unprovable. Thanks! I so rarely win these internet debates! Feels good! Again, tell me why Worgo's and McKenzie's opnions carry more weight than Woodlief's? Why do Woodlief’s carry more than everybody else’s? Daughter of Time. Check your own facts, do your own research, make your own decisions, based on all available evidence (and not just the word “apparently”). I would never over-hype a prospect and I never have. Sure you have. You’re doing it right now. You’re saying that Andrei Kostitsyin is a better prospect than Horton, Staal, Fleury, Zherdev, Vanek, Michalek, Suter, Coburn and Phaneuf. Were it not for the health, he would have been picked ahead of one, if not several (all?) of those guys. I can’t say which one, because, well, its not my argument (quite the contrary) and I seem to have missed which guy you think is inferior. I read so quickly, you know. Speaking of hyperbole; you seem to have a knack for it when attributing opinions to me. That's a rather weak device. Which opinions have I attributed to you? As I have stated, it would not surprise me at all to discover that there are NHL teams with inferior medical teams than the Habs. Would not surprise me at all either. Not at issue here. What is at issue is whether one, or several of the nine teams ahead of Montreal at the 2003 draft passed on Kostitsyin even though they thought he was the BPA because of his health. Since there is no actual proof that he was the BPA – at any time in the top 10 – I can only conclude that this was not the case. Feel free, of course, to tell me which player was the second BPA picked ahead of Kostitsyin. Sure, some teams picked who they thought were better players, others picked players that scared them less than Kostitsyn. Source? ;-) Even if medical reasons *weren't* the only reasons (see above)... Time will tell who doesn't make it. Which of the players picked after Nathan Horton do you think will prove to be better than him? Zherdev, I think will be the better player. He’s outplayed Kostitsyin everywhere, even when they were on the same team. No knock against Andrei, I just think Zherdev will be better. Phaneuf, in my opinion, will be a stud on defense. Cornerstone for a franchise. Suter and Coburn both have that potential. They may be *equally* as good as Kostitsyin, but I like building teams from the nets out. I’d take a potential franchise defenseman over a potential franchise forward any day of the week, and twice on Saturday (assuming I had two first round picks). Staal sounds like a real foundation, building block kind of guy. I don’t think he will be as sexy as Kostitsyin, but you need guys like him to win, more than you needs guys like Kostitsyin (you need both, of course, but relatively speaking…) Fleury, I think the Pens are in the process of destroying. Too bad, he could be elite. Not sure I’d risk him now, after last year’s shellacking, but on draft day, I’d take Fleury over Kostitsyin. Michalek… Meh. Big, strong, two-way guy, questions about his offense. I’d pass on him and take Kostitsyin. Vanek, I haven’t seen play (I’ve seen the others, if only briefly), but the reports on him sound like the reports on Kostistyin. See? Not so hard, eh? Formed my own opinion, speculated, boiled some water, took deep breathes, and went out on a limb. Now you try! |
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Post by BadCompany on Oct 28, 2004 19:01:29 GMT -5
There is however a theory circulating that no teams passed on Kostitsyn due to his health problems, despite concerns published to the contrary prior to the draft, by people with connections in the hockey world. This theory is backed by the argument that the 9 players selected before Kostitsyn are better than him and that's the *only* reason Kostitsyn was picked 10th. Sure it's possible, but where's the proof? Where’s your proof? That some team passed on him, and took an obviously inferior player? My argument is solid. With the exception of Kyle Woodlief, those very same “connected” hockey people had Kostitsyin being drafted lower than where he was actually picked. By that logic, he actually rose on draft day, despite the concerns over his health. sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hockey/news/2003/06/03/mock_draft/www.wildonice.net/archives/2003/06/17-mockdraft.htmlslam.canoe.ca/Slam030621/nhl_tor6-sun.htmlAnd so on. For them to know and us to find out. Though I doubt they'd be very forthcoming. But you insist it happened? Source? ;-) Speculate! It’ll lower your cholesterol levels! And for you? (geez, how many times do I have to ask! I’m begging you man, begging you!) While the Oilers were wary of taking Schremp 14th, there was no way they could pass him up when he was still there for their 25th pick… A perceived attitude problem pushed Schremp's desirability at the draft way down. A real medical problem did the same for Kostitsyn. There you go! Actual proof (anecdotal, granted, but still) that one team passed on Schremp because of his attitude (or at least were “wary” of him), now do the same for Kostitsyin! Find me the one team in the nine, who passed on him for medical reasons, and NOT because they thought the guy they picked instead was a better player. You can do it! |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Oct 28, 2004 19:47:29 GMT -5
Jeez, I know I should have left that Angelica Bridges photo up.
Looks like we're at an impasse.
You believe that no team that selected before the Habs at the 2003 draft considered Kostitsyn to be a better player but a greater risk than the player they chose. Your "proof" is that 9 players were chosen ahead of Kostitsyn and that he was ranked lower than 10th by some pundits. Good enough for you, but not for me.
9 were chosen before Kostitsyn. You cannot prove that none of those 9 weren't a result of jitters regarding Kostitsyn. You also don't know for a fact that Kostitsyn being ranked lower than 10th was not in any case influenced by his medical condition. Your homework has not been able to do that conclusively, though you do have an abundance of material from which you can extrapolate support for your theory that Kostitsyn was not number one on any of the selection lists of teams that picked before the Habs. But a theory it remains. And it is *your* theory, though not necessarily your's alone.
Based on my homework I discovered a number of pundits commenting prior to the draft on both Kostitsyn's talent and his health (already quoted and cited in this thread). I *think* that he was skipped over by at least one team. That is my theory. When I have conclusive proof you can be sure that I will share it with you, because that's just the kind of guy I am.
So wipe the spittle off your keyboard and drop the high-and-mighty tone. And go look at that Angelica Bridges photo for a few minutes.
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Post by BadCompany on Oct 28, 2004 19:57:26 GMT -5
Still can't speculate on the "at least one team" eh? And I really thought you were going to do it, I really did...
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