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Post by CentreHice on Apr 7, 2014 20:16:35 GMT -5
PQ Ousted - Liberal MajorityWas it the PQ surge for sovereignty that did them in? It would appear that many in the province want nothing to do with that platform at the moment. Interested in reading thoughts from our Quebec members.
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Post by franko on Apr 7, 2014 22:00:46 GMT -5
interesting thoughts coming out . . . gifts include knives [always given, it seems, after a loss or a long term; Mr. Harper had better beware].
and with the corruption scandals and crime bosses we're hearing Dormez avec les poissons Mme Marois . . . some pretty PO'd people making some pretty nasty comments.
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Post by Tankdriver on Apr 7, 2014 23:04:18 GMT -5
The PQ took a big hitttonight and the CAQ were surprisingly stronger than expected. The way I see this playing out in the next ten years is that The hardcore separatists and possibly students will start to flock to the Quebec Solidaire while more of the French population that leans towards federalism will start to go towards the CAQ. Now that the threat of separatism and the PQ have been voted out I can see Anglophones also shift towards the CAQ (drepending on if the corruption issues aren't finished yet). So it will be a three party election in the future unless Peladeau breaths new life in the PQ.
To sum it up, I think people are just tired of being divided and want things to run smooth for a while.
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Post by Cranky on Apr 8, 2014 0:06:51 GMT -5
It's about food on the table....not flags stupid.
BTW...the extra delicious steam ironing was Marois losing her seat. Perhaps that evil pinky finger mislead her and she should Yakuza it.
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Post by Cranky on Apr 8, 2014 0:14:39 GMT -5
The PQ took a big hitttonight and the CAQ were surprisingly stronger than expected. The way I see this playing out in the next ten years is that The hardcore separatists and possibly students will start to flock to the Quebec Solidaire while more of the French population that leans towards federalism will start to go towards the CAQ. Now that the threat of separatism and the PQ have been voted out I can see Anglophones also shift towards the CAQ (drepending on if the corruption issues aren't finished yet). So it will be a three party election in the future unless Peladeau breaths new life in the PQ. To sum it up, I think people are just tired of being divided and want things to run smooth for a while. Agree with all of it. Liberals didn't win this, the PQ handed it to them. Marois and PQ assorted never missed an opportunity to shove their foot in their mouths. As far as what Quebecers want, it's what we ALL want. Food on the table, stability, a future for children, peace, good order and .......a Habs cup. |
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Post by BadCompany on Apr 8, 2014 7:08:18 GMT -5
The PQ took a big hitttonight and the CAQ were surprisingly stronger than expected. The way I see this playing out in the next ten years is that The hardcore separatists and possibly students will start to flock to the Quebec Solidaire while more of the French population that leans towards federalism will start to go towards the CAQ. Now that the threat of separatism and the PQ have been voted out I can see Anglophones also shift towards the CAQ (drepending on if the corruption issues aren't finished yet). So it will be a three party election in the future unless Peladeau breaths new life in the PQ. To sum it up, I think people are just tired of being divided and want things to run smooth for a while. Agree with all of it. Liberals didn't win this, the PQ handed it to them. Marois and PQ assorted never missed an opportunity to shove their foot in their mouths. As far as what Quebecers want, it's what we ALL want. Food on the table, stability, a future for children, peace, good order and .......a Habs cup. Agreed. Marois ran one of the worst campaigns I've ever seen a political leader run, and that's saying something given the times we live in. Considering the huge lead they had going into the election, and the fact that THEY were the ones who actually called it, you would have thought they would have been prepared. But it was the sloppiest, most disorganized election campaign from a ruling party that I have ever seen. But beyond that, they had no platform. They ran on the Charter, and back-door sovereignty. Back-door in that "we're not running on it, but you know, we're not going to dismiss it either, and hey if the polls say it's a possibility we just might, or not, or maybe..." As for the Charter, its something that sounds good in theory, and I think that's why (partly) it was so popular at the beginning, but the devil, as they say, is in the details. French Quebecers make up something like 2% of the population of North America so of course anything that says they are going to protect French Quebec is going to be popular. It's only natural. I'm an English Quebecer, I make up something like 5% of Quebec, and if somebody says to me they want to do something to protect English in Quebec, then I'm going to be for that too. No surprises. So when the Charter comes out and says "we're not going to let people force their religion on you" of course everybody is going to be for it. Do what you want, leave me alone. The problem came in the details, when one PQ candidate actually admitted that people might lose their jobs over their choice of religion. Whoa now. It's one thing to not force me to be part of your religion, but to force people not to practice their religion? The line is too far now. And instead of backtracking from it Marois stood right behind it, as she did with the completely fabricated story about the Muslims taking over a condo pool. The more you deny facts the dumber you look. The Charter went from being about protecting Quebec, to being mean. And that was the exact opposite of the spirit of the whole thing. Beyond that nobody really knows what the PQ platform or identity is, beyond sovereignty-but-only-if-the-polls-support-it. You can't have Marois marching with tuition-protesting students, or sporting a red "occupy" square, and then pick union-busting Peladeau as her star candidate. You just can't. It would be like a Cheney-Obama Presidential ticket. It makes no sense. That's a sign of a party with no platform. Where do they stand in the political spectrum if their is no sovereignty? Are they for unions? Or against them? For tuition hikes, or against them? For public health care, or private? Or both? For tax breaks or not? Higher taxes for the rich, or tax breaks for corporations? What is their platform beyond "no Muslims in condo pools?" I don't know what the PQ's future is. The Bloc were wiped out on the national level, and the PQ just suffered their worst defeat in decades. Sovereignty is not an issue that the people here want to deal with right now. So the PQ needs a new identity. But unfortunately they don't seem to have one, so where do they go from here? In my perfect world I would like to see them fade away, and Quebec Solidaire take their place as the independence, left-wing party. At least they own it, and don't hide from it. Have the Liberals be your center-left party, the CAQ your center-right party, and the QS as the far left, separatist party. At least that way everybody knows where you stand. |
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Post by GNick99 on Apr 8, 2014 9:43:39 GMT -5
Sounds like you guys in Quebec don't want another referendum BC? I can't blame them. Keri said in his book it was reason for corporate Montreal cut in half, end of Expos, Nordiques and economic chaos back in 90s.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Apr 8, 2014 10:24:10 GMT -5
The Charter went from being about protecting Quebec, to being mean. And that was the exact opposite of the spirit of the whole thing ... What is their platform beyond "no Muslims in condo pools?" This, here, pretty much summed up the PQ campaign for me. I was on Facebook earlier and my feed is dominated with people applauding the defeat of the PQ more than the Liberal victory. Having said that, Quebecers chose to re-elect the Liberals despite the corruption of the last Liberal government, which still has to be fresh in the minds of many. This tells me that the province is more concerned about being governed properly rather than creating a drama that would piss off a lot of people both inside and outside the province. Cheers. |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Apr 8, 2014 11:49:44 GMT -5
Simple campaign: the Liberals ran on the fear of a Referendum from day 1. The PQ had a plateform: they had the Charter that a majority of voters wanted. They had the Anticosti oil project. They had the zero deficit budget within 4 years. They had the electrification of public transport. The one thing they didn’t have is a timetable about a possible referendum, with support to independence at about 30%, the PQ was obviously not going to call a referendum… simple logic... . Liberals? Sorry but THEY had no platform, aside from the reheated Charest one, but anyways they didn’t need one: they hammered referendum, referendum, referendum every chance they got. That’s all it took. Voters did not want to hear about a referendum, PQ did not want to talk about a referendum, Liberals talked only about it and got voted in.
Liberals ran 9 years of the most corrupted government since the Duplessis days, they are responsible for one third of our total accumulated depth in only 2 mandates... they never once produced a balanced budget in 9 year. They changed the zero deficit law (introduced by the PQ under Bouchard) to allow continual deficit… They overtaxed even more Quebecers by introducing a new health tax, raised electricity bills, they shoplifted the GST reduction that all other Canadians benefited by increasing the PST by the same percentage that the GST decreased… Their handling of the student crisis lead to social disturbance that was getting out of hands by the days, something the PQ had to wipe off. And now they’re back at it after 18 months off. Brace yourself Canadians because after 9 years of Liberal government, the equalization payments to Quebec got to a record amount, yep them darn left wing seperatists never costed you as much as those fine Liberals did...
But hey… all is good…all is fine…: no referendum. Right? Of course we won’t talk about the fact that Couillard twice said that he intended to re-open constitutional talks… that will go well for sure, and won't introduce instabily and division... Nope... I mean failed constitutional talks isn't the fuel that leads to referendums after all… Pretend your adversaries are working on something they’re not, to hide that you’re the one with that agenda…
Fear works every time. Simple as that.
That's all I'll say about the subject.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Apr 8, 2014 12:15:58 GMT -5
Fear works every time. Simple as that. Pumping fear into people is a very effective control tool. Make them afraid of it and tell them who's to blame for it. It can be used to influence elections as well as referendums. Cheers. |
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Post by CentreHice on Apr 8, 2014 12:22:40 GMT -5
Fear always works, Doc. No question.
Many voters don't analyze past that surface.
Thanks for outlining the other pertinent issues.
Any chance the Libs get it right this time....i.e. will the people/press hold them accountable?
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Post by Cranky on Apr 8, 2014 12:25:01 GMT -5
Good luck to Couillards baiting constitutional talks with Harper.
What I love about all this was the left ready to blame Harper if PQ won. "Quebeckers didn't trust Harper, NOBODY trusts Harper, see what happened" was going to be the rallying cry. That went well! Yup! LOL!
Harper is going to keep Cuoillard focused on what's important.....THE ECONOMY...and doesn't require a brain surgeon to understand that.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Apr 8, 2014 12:34:28 GMT -5
Any chance the Libs get it right this time....i.e. will the people/press hold them accountable? ...we'll see after 4 years I guess. *** Different subject but IMO there is something quite wrong with the voting system when only 40% of the population can elect a majority government. |
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Post by Cranky on Apr 8, 2014 12:41:00 GMT -5
Fear works every time. Simple as that. Pumping fear into people is a very effective control tool. Make them afraid of it and tell them who's to blame for it. It can be used to influence elections as well as referendums. Cheers. Huh? Exactly where was the "fear" pumped? And by whom? The PQ yelped about referendum, their star candidate fist pumped his hand for "revolution" and dreams about being the next king of the new country....and the majority of Quebeckers shoved them down the drain. Resoundingly. Unapologetically. Since the referendum, sovereignty has been off the table for the resounding majority of Quebeckers. They are sick and tired of being sick and tired hearing the same old schtick. Onwards and forward.... |
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Post by GNick99 on Apr 8, 2014 12:45:18 GMT -5
Simple campaign: the Liberals ran on the fear of a Referendum from day 1. The PQ had a plateform: they had the Charter that a majority of voters wanted. They had the Anticosti oil project. They had the zero deficit budget within 4 years. They had the electrification of public transport. The one thing they didn’t have is a timetable about a possible referendum, with support to independence at about 30%, the PQ was obviously not going to call a referendum… simple logic... . Liberals? Sorry but THEY had no platform, aside from the reheated Charest one, but anyways they didn’t need one: they hammered referendum, referendum, referendum every chance they got. That’s all it took. Voters did not want to hear about a referendum, PQ did not want to talk about a referendum, Liberals talked only about it and got voted in. Liberals ran 9 years of the most corrupted government since the Duplessis days, they are responsible for one third of our total accumulated depth in only 2 mandates... they never once produced a balanced budget in 9 year. They changed the zero deficit law (introduced by the PQ under Bouchard) to allow continual deficit… They overtaxed even more Quebecers by introducing a new health tax, raised electricity bills, they shoplifted the GST reduction that all other Canadians benefited by increasing the PST by the same percentage that the GST decreased… Their handling of the student crisis lead to social disturbance that was getting out of hands by the days, something the PQ had to wipe off. And now they’re back at it after 18 months off. Brace yourself Canadians because after 9 years of Liberal government, the equalization payments to Quebec got to a record amount, yep them darn left wing seperatists never costed you as much as those fine Liberals did... But hey… all is good…all is fine…: no referendum. Right? Of course we won’t talk about the fact that Couillard twice said that he intended to re-open constitutional talks… that will go well for sure, and won't introduce instabily and division... Nope... I mean failed constitutional talks isn't the fuel that leads to referendums after all… Pretend your adversaries are working on something they’re not, to hide that you’re the one with that agenda… Fear works every time. Simple as that. That's all I'll say about the subject. Too many people remember the 1990s and economic ruin referendum caused the province. Destruction of corporate Montreal, the .65 cent dollar, end of Nordiques, Expos, even fabled Habs were in dire straits before Gilette purchased the team. When another generation passes, next one will come along and sovereignty will be on the table again. I don't see it dying, but too much hurt still fresh in peoples memories to go back there. |
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Post by blny on Apr 8, 2014 12:45:45 GMT -5
I can't say I followed it closely, but the smart folks have to have realized at some point that separation doesn't help anything. Good luck creating a currency worth much. Good luck funding education, infrastructure renewal, health care. Good luck with all the CPP contributions you just forfeited. I could go on.
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Post by Cranky on Apr 8, 2014 12:53:29 GMT -5
Different subject but IMO there is something quite wrong with the voting system when only 40% of the population can elect a majority government. Better then having endless elections like Italy. Even if you took a modified "first past the post" system that Greece has, where they give a fixed extra X amount of seats to the first past the post party, the Liberals would still have a majority. |
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Post by Cranky on Apr 8, 2014 12:59:34 GMT -5
I can't say I followed it closely, but the smart folks have to have realized at some point that separation doesn't help anything. Good luck creating a currency worth much. Good luck funding education, infrastructure renewal, health care. Good luck with all the CPP contributions you just forfeited. I could go on. One of the most often mentioned negative is currency. In reality, an open currency can be adopted by any country at any time and the country of origin has very little to say about it. Adopters simply don't have political control of it of the benefit of devaluating it to create jobs. This has come up over and over with Greece. Nobody can stop them if they want to use Euros or dollars or drachma. Just like an independent Quebec. On the other hand, good luck to the Quebec dollar and borrowing against it. |
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Post by Cranky on Apr 8, 2014 13:06:42 GMT -5
Agree with all of it. Liberals didn't win this, the PQ handed it to them. Marois and PQ assorted never missed an opportunity to shove their foot in their mouths. As far as what Quebecers want, it's what we ALL want. Food on the table, stability, a future for children, peace, good order and .......a Habs cup. Agreed. Marois ran one of the worst campaigns I've ever seen a political leader run, and that's saying something given the times we live in. Considering the huge lead they had going into the election, and the fact that THEY were the ones who actually called it, you would have thought they would have been prepared. But it was the sloppiest, most disorganized election campaign from a ruling party that I have ever seen. The PQ couldn't help but tow their anchors. All she had to do is to focus on Liberal corruption and better government, yet her base needed constant re-assurance and to be fed. The problem with that is that every time she fed one of her base, she lost two votes. This needed a much more skilled, smarter and on-message politician to pull off.....and she's not one of them. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Apr 8, 2014 13:29:55 GMT -5
Agreed. Marois ran one of the worst campaigns I've ever seen a political leader run, and that's saying something given the times we live in. Considering the huge lead they had going into the election, and the fact that THEY were the ones who actually called it, you would have thought they would have been prepared. But it was the sloppiest, most disorganized election campaign from a ruling party that I have ever seen. The PQ couldn't help but tow their anchors. All she had to do is to focus on Liberal corruption and better government, yet her base needed constant re-assurance and to be fed. The problem with that is that every time she fed one of her base, she lost two votes. This needed a much more skilled, smarter and on-message politician to pull off.....and she's not one of them. I think focusing on Liberal corruption might have been an attempt at fear mongering but the fear of another referendum (just talking about it) may have trumped that. Quebecers are willing to take the risk and they've proven it before by providing the NDP a federal landslide of support. It might even be simpler than that. Maybe it was because no one could figure out the PQ platform, as BC suggested. As far as a more skilled politician, say what you want about him, but Lucien Bouchard gave the PQ a personality. The guy went right to work in governing a province that had been ignored by Parizeau. As an outsider looking in, I think Quebecers might have supported Bouchard not only because of his charisma and personality, but because he was a skilled politician who had his act together. Cheers. |
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Post by CentreHice on Apr 8, 2014 13:31:43 GMT -5
Pumping fear into people is a very effective control tool. Make them afraid of it and tell them who's to blame for it. It can be used to influence elections as well as referendums. Cheers. Huh? Exactly where was the "fear" pumped? And by whom? The PQ yelped about referendum, their star candidate fist pumped his hand for "revolution" and dreams about being the next king of the new country....and the majority of Quebeckers shoved them down the drain. Resoundingly. Unapologetically. Since the referendum, sovereignty has been off the table for the resounding majority of Quebeckers. They are sick and tired of being sick and tired hearing the same old schtick. Onwards and forward.... According to Doc, the ONLY platform issue used by the Liberals was the fear of "another referendum" IF the PQ was re-elected. Economic ramifications are implicit....but shouldn't a party have more than just that to offer? Especially a party that was in power for 9 years previous and drove the public back to the PQ? Sure hope they can find harmonious grounds. |
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Post by Willie Dog on Apr 8, 2014 13:42:26 GMT -5
Fear works every time. Simple as that. Pumping fear into people is a very effective control tool. Make them afraid of it and tell them who's to blame for it. It can be used to influence elections as well as referendums. Cheers. How do you think Bush 43 stayed in for 2 terms. |
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Apr 8, 2014 14:39:20 GMT -5
It wasn't as much about separatism as it was about racism. The wrong message. Quebec will flourish and grow for the next five years.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Apr 8, 2014 15:10:26 GMT -5
It wasn't as much about separatism as it was about racism. The wrong message. Quebec will flourish and grow for the next five years. Well pointed out, HFLA. the racism tag seemed to be at the forefront for quite a while even before the election. Cheers. |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Apr 8, 2014 15:19:33 GMT -5
Sure hope they can find harmonious grounds. So do I. While they ARE a majority government they're probably not completely oblivious to the fact that a majority of the population did not vote for them. |
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Post by CentreHice on Apr 8, 2014 16:02:04 GMT -5
It wasn't as much about separatism as it was about racism. The wrong message. Quebec will flourish and grow for the next five years. Well pointed out, HFLA. the racism tag seemed to be at the forefront for quite a while even before the election. Cheers. There is no racism....in the purest sense of the word "race". Darwin's theory and the science of DNA have stamped that out. We're all related. "Culturalism", "religionism"....more to the point, IMO. Differences in how we behave, what we wear, etc. peculiar to the various belief systems of our species. And there are rationality problems on both sides of those walls. Will we ever get it right....and live in peace? |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Apr 8, 2014 16:30:24 GMT -5
Well pointed out, HFLA. the racism tag seemed to be at the forefront for quite a while even before the election. Cheers. There is no racism....in the purest sense of the word "race". Darwin's theory and the science of DNA have stamped that out. We're all related. "Culturalism", "religionism"....more to the point, IMO. Differences in how we behave, what we wear, etc. peculiar to the various belief systems of our species. And there are rationality problems on both sides of those walls. Will we ever get it right....and live in peace? Very diplomatically worded, CH. Cheers. |
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Post by jkr on Apr 8, 2014 16:44:53 GMT -5
I am thinking back to the previous Quebec election. Despite 9 years of mismanagement & corruption Quebecers only gave Marois a slim majority - 3 seats I believe. Charest's gov't should have been turfed resoundingly but got just a slap on the wrist from voters.
IMO it's as if voters were saying to the PQ lets see what you can do before we commit to a majority government. Instead of trying to demonstrate to voters that they can focus on core issues ( economy, health care, education) and run the province efficiently for several years they made a cynical grab for power based on a divisive piece of legislation.
Give the electorate credit, not just in Quebec but other provinces as well.( anybody remember Peterson's Liberals trying something similar in Ontario & getting turfed by the NDP?)They saw this election call for what it was and repudiated it.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Apr 8, 2014 17:01:34 GMT -5
Simple campaign: the Liberals ran on the fear of a Referendum from day 1. The PQ had a plateform: they had the Charter that a majority of voters wanted. They had the Anticosti oil project. They had the zero deficit budget within 4 years. They had the electrification of public transport. The one thing they didn’t have is a timetable about a possible referendum, with support to independence at about 30%, the PQ was obviously not going to call a referendum… simple logic... . Liberals? Sorry but THEY had no platform, aside from the reheated Charest one, but anyways they didn’t need one: they hammered referendum, referendum, referendum every chance they got. That’s all it took. Elections and governance are two separate things. There's lots of back-slapping and jokes about PKP by all my mostly anglo friends back home in Montreal, but when the dust settles you are 100% correct, Doc. The Libs got turfed after 9 years of anemic growth, high taxes, deficits, and endless corruption. What's changed? It's not enough to be the federalist party that won't call a referendum. That might win you an election, but a governing party with a majority has LOADS of power in Canada when you compare it to the pathetic way things get done here in the US, where government is basically paralyzed. The Liberals need a real growth agenda that involves cutting taxes in some areas, raising them in others, spending on infrastructure, raising tuition for spoiled college kids, and finding the right balance on the language issue. I don't know lots of young francophones anymore, but something tells me the nationalist passion isn't quite as strong as it used to be. The PQ exploits them in the same way the Republicans exploit the Tea Party lunatics. The Libs need to deliver on a real growth plan. That more than anything will ensure their long-term success and marginalize the sovereigntists. |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Apr 9, 2014 15:59:57 GMT -5
I don't know lots of young francophones anymore, but something tells me the nationalist passion isn't quite as strong as it used to be. The PQ exploits them in the same way the Republicans exploit the Tea Party lunatics. Thing is Nationalists and Seperatists are 2 different beasts here  A vast majority of Quebec voters are Nationalists, in fact 60% of the vote went to Nationalist parties CAQ, PQ and QS. But that 60% got split into soft Nationalist of the CAQ and Separatists of the PQ and QS... Allowing the Liberals to capture a majority government with 40% of the vote. So while a majority of Quebec voters are not Seperatist... A majority are not Federalist either... but hey, that's typical Quebec  You are right that a vast majority of young voters aren't interested in the PQ though. |
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A vast majority of Quebec voters are Nationalists, in fact 60% of the vote went to Nationalist parties CAQ, PQ and QS. But that 60% got split into soft Nationalist of the CAQ and Separatists of the PQ and QS... Allowing the Liberals to capture a majority government with 40% of the vote. 