Koivu and Zednik for who?

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

HabsAddict hinted that the reason Captain K and Zed have been quite often performing at something less than optimum intensity recently is due to their names being circulated as, shudder, trade-bait.

Let's pretend that this is the case. What would you see as a fair return for these two?

(Hmmm, maybe Théodore's slump has to do with the same situation applied to him. )

[Yeti]

O'Neil, Staal and Francis...


Won't happened but you have to hope that if both would go together the return would be high...

Zednik for O'Neil would be a lateral move but maybe that's what this team need, new blood.

I don't know what we could get for Koivu. Only a playoff team would deal for Koivu at this stage of the season imo... so we would not get the same kind of player in return. Pitkannen +++ for Koivu is the kind of move a cup contender team like the Flyers would make... But then it throws us in deep trouble to make the playoffs ourselves.

I always defended Koivu. I still like him but he does not seem very happy since september. Maybe he demanded a trade himself. Right now, given his lack of fire and enthousiasm since the beginning of the season, I'm not against a trade.

[Doc Holliday]

Prertty easy: Iginla, Conroy, Gauthier for Koivu and Zed.

I've alreay covered the plus of getting Koivu for the Flames, ie, somewhat of a known name that will never cost much more than 4-5 mil. They get also some fire power to replace Iginla's and Zednik has been a fan favorite everywhere he's been. Both players could really explode out west.

We get a real franchise forward in Igninla. Conroy...well...the right handed center with excellent 2 way game that Bo was looking for... Gauthier, rough, hard playing dmen. Though Conroy is a little old (but still youger than Juneau, both Iginla and Gauthier are young enough to be considered solid building blocks of a young team rebuilding.

Rivet will most probably want out soon after this trade and if I'm Bo I gladly accomodate him. Maybe to LA for Lappy...

Than I'd do Markov + Bulis and Hossa for Ryan Smyth and a pick.

[AH]

I would aim for Smyth and Lang.

Zednik for Lang
Koivu for Smyth.

Maybe even expand the Caps trade to include Gonchar by throwing in Hainsey and a guy like Plex.

As for Rivet wanting out after Koivu leaves, well too bad for him, no one wants that ridiculous contract of his.

Whatever the case, #11 and #20 are really getting under my skin.

[BCHab]

If it comes to trading Koivu and Zednik, I would aim for youth and a talent upgrade. I'm thinking a team fighting for a playoff spot but in another conference. A team like Nashville perhaps?

Koivu, Zednik, Hossa and a pick - Legwand, Hartnell

Addresses the need for Nashville to get an experienced, playmaking centre with a certain star appeal to put people in the stands. I think Koivu would thrive in the Western Conference's more open game. The Preds also get a potential 30 goal scorer in Zednik and young skilled LW in Hossa who might benefit from a change in scenery.

The Habs get a young skilled first line centre with size, and a young, very fast and physical first line winger who can play both sides.

Nothing wrong with wishful thinking... ;D

Cheers,

[Habit]

Koviu + Zed to TB for Vinny and a pick???

[HFTO]

Doc's deal is the one becuase it would give us several elements missing on the team.An O'Neill and or Vinny trade would most likely backfire on us especially if they are coming to this team on their own.we nedd some ruggedness on D and a shakeup up front.I'm starting to lean towards a breakup of our old core as well I think it might now be the only way for this teeam to change its chemistry.
HFTO

[sergejean]

Koivu-Zednik-Hossa/ or Hainsey - 1st or 2nd round pick

VS

Lang-Carter-Witt

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Since it's all in fun, I'd say, Koivu/Zednik/Hossa/Hainsey for Arnott/Morrow and Matvichuk.

What's wrong with this? Glad you asked. Koivu may not be the stand up captain everyone wants, but he is the heart and soul of the club. The only way Gainey would part with his captain is if he knew he was getting some heart and soul back.

As for Dallas, I've heard they really like Koivu. But parting with all three of these players I've cited would seriously deplete their team's heart and soul. I've also heard they won't part with Morrow. But, heck, they traded Gretzky didn't they? The Stars would also be getting younger as a team and they'd have two youngsters with loads of potential.

Could these youngsters be replaced in Montreal? Hossa easier than Hainsey I guess. We have more offensive potential in the system than defensive. And that might be all the more reason to hang on to Hainsey.

But, since its all in good fun, what the heck; if I were GM and the Stars were willing to trade up, I'd pull the trigger on it. If they wanted a pick, I'd throw that it as well. Just thinking about it more and I think it would have to be a #2 at least.

If it worked out, I'm sure my job would be safe until the next losing streak. If it didn't work out, I'm sure l'organization would hang on to me ... as a janitor or something.

Cheers.

[Skilly]

Did I just wake up in Disneyland? Talk about everyone aiming high. You do know thatthe other GM has to agree to these trades right .... they are not just going to say yes.

Carolina: Looking to dump salary. And Francis will be retiring at the end of this year if the CBA doesn't get worked out. So you can forget Gainey even being remotely interested in Francis. Koivu makes more than O'Neill .... and Zednik makes more than Staal. And if you think Carolina is going to give up their future ... well ... find me some of that stuff you got ... Staal is the one guy who is untouchable. More reasonable trade from Carolina is

Zednik and Hossa/or a pick for O'Neill

Philly is never going to let Pitkanen go. I don't know how much stock you put in Koivu, but he is not going to get us Pitkanen

Calgary: Again if they trade with us they aren't going to give us their best 3 players. They are just as small as us ..... they would probably do Conroy for Zednik .... but that only saves them $350,000. If we are getting Gauthier than you can bet that it is prospects or picks we are giving up because Gauthier is cheap and Calgary doesn't want to take on more salary.

Nashville will give us two bright young cheap forwards ... who are their best players .... for 6.0 Million worth of salary in 2 players we can't get to perform? Don't see that happening either.

So what do I think we can get for Koivu and Zednik? Well for Koivu, we can get nothing. Newsflash. The whole league knows he had cancer ..... it could flare up again .... no one is going to take that chance with a big name player. If we agree to pay most of his salary and throw in a pick or prospect we might get Matt Johnson from Minnesota so Koivu can end his career playing with his brother .... if not than he can sign there in 2006 anyway.

Of all the players on the team that could be deemed expendable, Zednik has the biggest trade value. But he would have to be packaged together with some youngsters to get anything in return. On his own we get Gauthier. But if we package him with Komi and Bulis ..... we get Iginla and Gauthier.

But I already thought we agreed that nobody here wants Komi to be traded ..... but I think we get Smyth if we give up Komi,a pick, and Zednik. Another player say Higgins and we might even get Smyth and Brewer.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Yeti said:

O'Neil, Staal and Francis...

Landing Staal would be a MAJOR coup, Yeti. WOW! is about the only word that comes to mind. Landing Staal would take some youth going the other way. Balej, Higgins, et al ... take your pick of two actually. That's how much I would value Staal, buds.

You know yourself that we'd be better with O'Neil as well. If a Zednik for O'Neil scenario came up how could we not do it?

Francis may die a Cane. I honestly don't know, but I imagine he'd have to OK any deal involving him at this point. I think that's just a sign of respect for the dedication he's shown to the organization over the years.

I think there would be a lot of teams valuing Koivu and Zednik if they were actually available. However, Gainey won't be pressured into making them available. I honestly think he won't make any deal unless it's a clear advantage to the club. He's really not a risk taker, but we'll have to see I guess.

Cheers.

[Doc Holliday]

habit said:

Koviu + Zed to TB for Vinny and a pick???

...don't get me started...

[Doc Holliday]

Disgruntled70sHab said:

Since it's all in fun, I'd say, Koivu/Zednik/Hossa/Hainsey for Arnott/Morrow and Matvichuk.

Very, very well thought out deal DIS. Good for both teams actually.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Doc_Holliday said:

...don't get me started...

It's OK, Doc, I'll get it started. What would it take to get Vinny out of warm, sunny, sunglasses-wearing, year-around-tanked-top-chicks, Tampa Bay?

Koivu and Zednik for starters. However ......

Cheers.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Doc_Holliday said:

Very, very well thought out deal DIS. Good for both teams actually.

Might take more though Doc.

Cheers.

[Doc Holliday]

Disgruntled70sHab said:

It's OK, Doc, I'll get it started. What would it take to get Vinny out of warm, sunny, sunglasses-wearing, year-around-tanked-top-chicks, Tampa Bay?

Koivu and Zednik for starters. However ......

Cheers.

Well since you get it started...

First off, it's no secret that Vinny would LOVE to play for the HABS. I’m not saying he doesn’t like Tampa but that is one guy that if being ask where would you wanna play would chose the HABS 10 times out of 10. For sure. You know and I know that there isn't that many guys like that around... Many actually fear the town because of the pressure, while he, would love to be a part of it. IMO, Vinny wearing the CH would become something unreal. Something really BIG. We’d have a genuine fan/player love story like we had so many here.

Is he for real ? 33 goals, 78 points on a season he started at 22 yrs old is pretty darn impressive. 6’4’’ 205lbs, great skating, great vision, good shot and soft hands, the guy is the perfect hockey machine in today’s standard. He’s also as durable as they come. Of course there are these problems with his coach, well, great players are not the easiest ones to coach… They’re competitors and they’d pig headed but good coaches usually find a way to make that work for them. Tortorella is a certified imbecile that uses the media to publicly humiliate his players and he just a contract extension…

I think Vinny will get out of Tampa sooner than later. But right now he’s probably as untouchable as Thornton in Boston… But as you always say, Gretzky got traded, so us Vinny fans, are just waiting for that day to come by.

Trade cost ? Koivu and Theodore I think.

[blaise]

I find all of this amusing. Keep it up, folks, I can use the smiles.

[Marvin]

I agree, totally amusing because it will never happen. It would disrupt whatever chemistry the team has at present, and would make no sense whatsoever. At this time of the year if you are going to make a trade, you don't make one that ruins the set-up and requires bringing new people into a system that is already in place. Not to mention, trading Koivu would be a publicity nightmare - unless you got Lecavalier (i.e. a francophone) in return - but TB would never make that trade with one of their rivals.

Keep the faith people and remember that the success of this year was never supposed to happen. Personally if the team does a free-fall out of the playoffs, it won't bother me at all. I'm more interested in next year and the long-term. No point in making a trade for this year when this is team that has been built for the future.

Marvin

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Marvin said:

Keep the faith people and remember that the success of this year was never supposed to happen. Personally if the team does a free-fall out of the playoffs, it won't bother me at all. I'm more interested in next year and the long-term. No point in making a trade for this year when this is team that has been built for the future.

Marvin

That about sums it up for many of us, Marvin. Gainey will only make a trade when it suits him and if it will benefit the club.

Last night I was thinking along the lines of what you said earlier. If they do slip out of the playoffs, I'll be disappointed, but this season is already gravy.

I don't think anyone is too serious in this thread. I think it was started for we amateur GMs to have fun speculating. Having said that, we have to have fun somewhere. If a few of you get a chuckle out of a thread created for just that, well then it's been a success.

Seriously though, if it improved the club, I'd move anyone on this roster. There are very few untouchables, but Koivu and Zednik aren't two of them. I wouldn't be a Pat Quinn about things, or a Phil Espositio for that matter, but if the right deal comes along, how can we not move on it?

Glad some of you are enjoying the mussings. That's what Mr. B had in mind me thinks.

Cheers.

[Forum Ghost]

Doc_Holliday said:

Well since you get it started...

First off, it's no secret that Vinny would LOVE to play for the HABS. I’m not saying he doesn’t like Tampa but that is one guy that if being ask where would you wanna play would chose the HABS 10 times out of 10. For sure. You know and I know that there isn't that many guys like that around... Many actually fear the town because of the pressure, while he, would love to be a part of it. IMO, Vinny wearing the CH would become something unreal. Something really BIG. We’d have a genuine fan/player love story like we had so many here.

As good as he's been in his young NHL career, he hasn't yet reached the megastar status that was projected of him when he was drafted. I think that the environment of Montreal, is the only city that would be able to untap this megastar potential of his.

Is he for real ? 33 goals, 78 points on a season he started at 22 yrs old is pretty darn impressive. 6’4’’ 205lbs, great skating, great vision, good shot and soft hands, the guy is the perfect hockey machine in today’s standard.

Excuse me while I wipe my drool.

6’4’’ 205lbs, great skating, great vision, good shot and soft hands, the guy is the perfect hockey machine

Actually, that sounds a lot like Jean Beliveau in his heyday.

I think Vinny will get out of Tampa sooner than later. But right now he’s probably as untouchable as Thornton in Boston… But as you always say, Gretzky got traded, so us Vinny fans, are just waiting for that day to come by.

If Vinny becomes a Hab; to me it would be the greatest thing since that Bob Gainey guy became the Habs GM. ;D

Trade cost ? Koivu and Theodore I think.

Get Feaster to throw in St. Louis and we got a deal.

[Skilly]

Why oh why is it when you hear a rumour or speculate about trades it always comes down to receiving a francophone in return?

Why can't we just get the best possible return?

Calgary: We want Gauthier
Tampa: Vinny and St. Louis

If Montreal ever does get Vinny (and I am probably the only one that hopes otherwise), the media will be Vinny this and Vinny that with the occasional Jose thrown into the mix. They don't need a francophone saviour ..... they need to win.

A wise man once said "Those who forget the past, are doomed to repeat it." Well let's just look at the destruction of our beloved team because of that desire to find the francophone saviour.

Brisbois (no trade mistake), Audette, Perreault, Roy traded for Thibeault (surely more teams than Colorado wanted him), signing Juneau, the list goes on and on .......

I ask this ..... what if Vinny becomes a bust in Montreal? I mean the last true francophone star was Vinny .... Damphousse that is. And to get Lecavalier there would be no Koivu or Zednik traded ...... but a package which would include names like Theodore, Hossa, Komisarek, Ryder, Locke, and Perezhogin.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

I'll be honest with, Skilly, I'd love to see a return of the "Flying Frenchmen" days. Now, that doesn't mean I'd like to see a total French team the way Maurice Richard and Marc Tardiff suggested so many years ago. But, I wouldn't be sad if they had the Francophone base the had in the 60's and 70's.

Forum Ghost summed it up perfectly about Lecavalier; he really does look like a younger version of Jean Beliveau. I don't have to tell you the marketing value he would have in Montreal either. Lecavalier = marketing = talent = bucks = home-grown product returning to where it all began. The positivies are just too many.

Though not as marketable, Gauthier is also a talented hockey player who would do well going back to la Belle Provance.

However, I've noticed that the media is much harder on French players and coaches than they are on English ones. Mario Tremblay was basically stripped of his dignity with his "resignation," as was Jean Perron and Jacques Demers before him. Ronald Corey was run through the ringers; ditto Rejean Houle. If a Francophone player, let's say, Vinny Damphousse, played badly, he's booed off the ice. Heck, Maurice Richard was booed in the Forum; go figure the odds on that.

Honestly, the Montreal hockey mob is traditionally much, much harder on their own Francophone players than they are on the English ones. There's a lot of pressure for them to perform in Montreal.

But, as far as the "Flying Frenchmen" are concerned, t'is a dream many of have. Can't see it happening though.

Cheers.

[Skilly]

That's my point.

French players are under so much scrutiny that they crack under the pressure when playing for Montreal. Elsewhere they thrive.

As for the coaches. Well you almost have to go back to Toe Blake to find one that wasn't partly francophone, I know ... I know ... Al MCNeil (only half a seaosn) and Scotty Bowman .... but even Scotty was born in Montreal. So the coaching argument holds no water because that is a pre-requisite of Montreal coaches ... they have to speak the language (I agree with that). And Gainey is bi-lingual and the first non-francophone to hold that position since maybe the 1960's.

It's the players that I agree with ... they are under a microscope .... I know they would love to find one for marketing .... but is it worth it to gut your team in the process of trying?

And not being francophone, myself, or even had the pleasure to sit down in the cathedral that is the Centre Bell, I can not attest to the actual scrutiny of the french vs english players on the team. I can only look from afar and see that Brisbois is getting sheltered this year, Ribeiro can do no wrong, Quintal has sucked and not a word gets mentioned, Traverse is still with the organization, Perreault is attrocious, ...... but I was happy as a lark when they bought out Audette .... never thought that would happen.

And now the whole of Montreal media is crumbling down on Koivu. He doesn't know the language, and he only gives 110 % every game ..... maybe they should ask Julien to bench Ribeiro again ....seemed to work last time.

Don't get me wrong. I love Quebec. I love the french. I am bilingual. But this is sports, and I feel thatthey should try and get the best possible players and stop worrying about the best possible french player available.

If the best player available is french ... great .... if not let not see anymore of this throwing in the token french guy to sweeten the pot of the past.

[blaise]

Disgruntled70sHab said:

I'll be honest with, Skilly, I'd love to see a return of the "Flying Frenchmen" days. Now, that doesn't mean I'd like to see a total French team the way Maurice Richard and Marc Tardiff suggested so many years ago. But, I wouldn't be sad if they had the Francophone base the had in the 60's and 70's.

Forum Ghost summed it up perfectly about Lecavalier; he really does look like a younger version of Jean Beliveau. I don't have to tell you the marketing value he would have in Montreal either. Lecavalier = marketing = talent = bucks = home-grown product returning to where it all began. The positivies are just too many.

Though not as marketable, Gauthier is also a talented hockey player who would do well going back to la Belle Provance.

However, I've noticed that the media is much harder on French players and coaches than they are on English ones. Mario Tremblay was basically stripped of his dignity with his "resignation," as was Jean Perron and Jacques Demers before him. Ronald Corey was run through the ringers; ditto Rejean Houle. If a Francophone player, let's say, Vinny Damphousse, played badly, he's booed off the ice. Heck, Maurice Richard was booed in the Forum; go figure the odds on that.

Honestly, the Montreal hockey mob is traditionally much, much harder on their own Francophone players than they are on the English ones. There's a lot of pressure for them to perform in Montreal.

But, as far as the "Flying Frenchmen" are concerned, t'is a dream many of have. Can't see it happening though.

Cheers.

That was then and this is now. There's a new generation of francophones that are outspokenly rude and chauvinistic. Many of them go positively orgasmic over Ribeiro and refer to Koivu in the basest terms. If you don't believe me, look at the posts by fans on RDS and various francophone websites. "A bas Koivu" is one of the mildest epithets; others plumb the vocabulary of excretion. I recently downloaded a post (and put it on HabsRus) by someone who said he was glad Souray was 'blessé' so that people could turn their attention to his love object, Ribeiro. These fans dump on Rivet but not on Quintal or Bouillon and were quick to forgive Brisebois after Gainey's intervention. I wonder if they would respond similarly to a plea for Rivet.

[blny]

Their not true fans, and I'm glad I can't hear them here in Halifax.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Blaise said:

That was then and this is now. There's a new generation of francophones that are outspokenly rude and chauvinistic. Many of them go positively orgasmic over Ribeiro and refer to Koivu in the basest terms. If you don't believe me, look at the posts by fans on RDS and various francophone websites. "A bas Koivu" is one of the mildest epithets; others plumb the vocabulary of excretion. I recently downloaded a post (and put it on HabsRus) by someone who said he was glad Souray was 'blessé' so that people could turn their attention to his love object, Ribeiro. These fans dump on Rivet but not on Quintal or Bouillon and were quick to forgive Brisebois after Gainey's intervention. I wonder if they would respond similarly to a plea for Rivet.

You shouldn't go to the sites you mentioned without a tube of pimple cream by your side. I wouldn't get too worked up by the opnions expressed there.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Blaise said:

That was then and this is now. There's a new generation of francophones that are outspokenly rude and chauvinistic. Many of them go positively orgasmic over Ribeiro and refer to Koivu in the basest terms. If you don't believe me, look at the posts by fans on RDS and various francophone websites. "A bas Koivu" is one of the mildest epithets; others plumb the vocabulary of excretion. I recently downloaded a post (and put it on HabsRus) by someone who said he was glad Souray was 'blessé' so that people could turn their attention to his love object, Ribeiro. These fans dump on Rivet but not on Quintal or Bouillon and were quick to forgive Brisebois after Gainey's intervention. I wonder if they would respond similarly to a plea for Rivet.

Every team has it's good and bad fans, Blaise. I don't doubt you for a second when you say these fans are a tad biased.

But, I remember the French press ripping into many players and coaches over the years. They didn't exactly rip into Pat Burns, but it was due to their influence that sent him packing to Toronto. And make no mistake, it was the acquisition of Burns and Gilmour that took the Leafs in a new direction. You won't find a Leaf fan anywhere thanking us for that.

However, it was media pressure that got Savard to move Carbonneau. Media pressure influenced many Hab's bad draft choices. If you don't believe that, well, look back to the Battle of Quebec. They were losing in the Quebec PR war and the Habs went out of their way to bypass talented players in order to draft Francophones. Once those players never materialized, WHAMO! rip les incompetents.

Honestly, I think it wouldn't be that way if hockey weren't so much a passion. It's a way of life in some communities. And when that way of life isn't upheld, especially by their own, it's tantamount to sacrilege.

Honestly, it may not be as feverish as it used to be, but it may explain a lot. That's where I'm coming from buds.

Cheers (la).

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Doc_Holliday said:

Well since you get it started...

Je m'excuse mon chum. Maybe I should have said "It's OK Doc, I'll get you started

Trade cost ? Koivu and Theodore I think.

Indeed!

Salut!

[Doc Holliday]

Skilly said:

Why oh why is it when you hear a rumour or speculate about trades it always comes down to receiving a francophone in return?

Why Oh why do we have to constantly excuse ourselves if we bring up a local players in trade talks... We can talk about Witt, Arnott, Iginla, Bondra, O'Neil and what have you but if we bring up one local name, than we are chauvinist that can't see further than a name...

For evident hockey reason this guy would be a welcom addition and local players are always a special attraction no matter where you are. That's all I'm saying.

[blaise]

The Yankees aren't reduced to signing local boys to stir up fan interest. They don't care if the players are from the Bronx, the Dominican Republic, or Japan. They just want them to be the best. Three million people see the Yankees every year irrespective of their roots. The Yankees would gladly sign a Finnish second baseman who could hit .280 and field his position, and the fans would love him. That's because New Yorkers don't have an inferiority complex that compels them to yearn for a charismatic figure from deep within a ghetto.