Koivu and Zednik for who?

[blaise]

Mr. said:

I am first generation Canadian, of Estonian descent. Estonian and Finnish are sister languages. They, along with Magyar, belong to the Finno-Ugric group of languages. The Finno-Ugric languages are non-Indo-European. Their origins have been traced back to what is now known as Korea.

The Finno-Ugric languages are reputedly the most difficult of all "western" languages to learn. Conversely, it has been posited that Finno-Ugric speakers generally find it easier to pick up other languages than do native Indo-Europen language speakers.

I was aware of the linguistic connection. I have been to Hungary twice. Although I was unable to converse in Hungarian, I had boned up on the pronunciations, so that at least my few words would be understandable. I also remembered to invert the first and family names. (Is this true of Finnish or Estonian as well?) In Pygmalion, Professor Higgins's nemesis remarked that because Eliza Doolittle's English was flawless, she must be Hungarian.

Are you acquainted with the music of Arvo Pärt, one of the leading contemporary Estonian composers?

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Blaise said:

I was aware of the linguistic connection. I have been to Hungary twice. Although I was unable to converse in Hungarian, I had boned up on the pronunciations, so that at least my few words would be understandable. I also remembered to invert the first and family names. (Is this true of Finnish or Estonian as well?) In Pygmalion, Professor Higgins's nemesis remarked that because Eliza Doolittle's English was flawless, she must be Hungarian.

Are you acquainted with the music of Arvo Pärt, one of the leading contemporary Estonian composers?

Name inversion is not common in Estonian, except in a very formal, structured environment, People are more likely to refer to you as "so-and-so's son/daughter" when talking about you. If addressed directly a man is normally referred to only by his patronymic; women when addressed are graced with the title which appropriately describes their marital status.

I am partial to Pärt.

[blaise]

Arbos, Fratres, and Passio to you!

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

www.eki.ee/keel/et002.html

[legaspesien]

Any deal including those two will have to bring us that 1st or 2nd line center with size and weight whe desperately need

Bonk,Arnott, or anyone of that type

[blaise]

I'm printing the download so that I can read it at my leisure.

Did you notice that the syntax in English is rather loose and (that in the vernacular at least) word order is not very important? Not so in German!

Another name from Estonian lore: Are you familiar with Paul Keres?

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Keres was one of the greatest chessmasters of the 20th century, and mentor to Boris Spassky. Yet he had nothing on Carmen Kass for looks.

[blaise]

Paul Keres was trapped in the Soviet orbit. He was prevented from knocking off Mikhail Botvinnik and becoming world's champion because it would not have been good for his health to do so. Botvinnik, needless to say, was in Stalin's favor.

[PTH]

Mr. said:

I wouldn't be harsh on those fans who are not Québécois by origin or residence. As always, education rather than knee-jerk exclusion is the best policy.

I fully agree. But sometimes I grow weary of repetition. Education truly is the best policy, but I sincerely wonder if people are even willing to be educated.

[PTH]

Skilly said:

Perreault and Brisbois have given us nothing ......

Very interesting definition of "nothing".
Perreault was our top scorer in 2001-2002, and our 2nd top goal-scorer in 2002. (and he missed 9 games that year and was still our #3 scorer overall).

To say that if we never signed Brisbois our Defense would be bad is not very true. If we let Brisbois go back in 2001-2002 the Habs would have had 4 million dollars at their disposal, assuming they were going to spend that money anyway.

Brisbois is the 18th highest paid defenseman in the league ..... such names as Gonchar, Morris, McCabe, Aucoin, Rafalski, Poti, Smith, Chara etc all make less than him ..... so we could ahve gotten another defenseman back then ... when they were cheaper again.

Yup, some excellent players there, but none available on waivers or as a UFA. Let Patrice go and you don't get any of those guys here unless you give up some serious assets, making us a weaker team overall.

If you look at Brisebois as just another player then yeah he's terribly expensive, but as a UFA, well, UFAs are just about always overpaid.

Anyhow, Brisebois might not have been a terrific signing, but you can't say that overpaid means contributing nothing - it means that the GM negotiated poorly.

[Skilly]

I did not imply for a second that we would sign any of those player's this year ..... I said they are all cheaper than Brisbois.

Brisbois was signed to this ridiculous contract 2 years ago ..... I wonder who we could have gotten back then for 4 million dollars if these guys are making less NOW.

I measure success in Cups. Brisbois played a very minor role in the last Cup we won. Perreault won us no Cup ..... he never did enough to justify a no-trade clause that is for sure. My my my .... is there a double standard I wonder? Yannic had 56 and 46 points his last 2 season. It is a sad state of affairs when some get blasted for only getting 50 points and others are all of a sudden "top scorers" .... I guess it is great to be a big fish in a small pond. When I say nothing I am not comapring him to production on the Habs .... I am comparing him to production league wide .... he was brought in to be a top 30 point man .... not lead the Habs in scoring.

Saku led the previous year with 47 points in 56 games
Perreault #3 season he had 46 points in 73 games

Both seasons are the equivalent of nothing because they A) never got us to the playoffs, and b) were not in the leaders in scoring.

[BCHab]

PTH said:

I fully agree. But sometimes I grow weary of repetition. Education truly is the best policy, but I sincerely wonder if people are even willing to be educated.

Careful young man. I'm not sure I like what you are implying. I am a 10th generation Quebecois, know the province very well, speak 4 languages, have a classical education and was working on my second university degree before you were even born. I just have a different opinion than you.

Cheers,

[PTH]

Skilly said:

I did not imply for a second that we would sign any of those player's this year ..... I said they are all cheaper than Brisbois.à<br>

Well, so what ? For years Elias was dirt cheap, so what ?
If you're rather have had one of those other defensemen, which forward would be have sacrificed ? I bet we could have gotten a real good defenseman if we gave up the picks we used to get Komisarek and Perezhogin...

I measure success in Cups. Brisbois played a very minor role in the last Cup we won.

Well, then BRisebois is the only guy on this team to have ever had any success. However meager his contribution, it's gotta be more than the nothing we got from everyone else.

Perreault won us no Cup ..... he never did enough to justify a no-trade clause that is for sure.

If you don't give him the clause, he doesn't come.

.... he was brought in to be a top 30 point man .... not lead the Habs in scoring.

Well, he was brought in old enough for us to have a very good read on what he could contribute, and the past 2 seasons he contributed very well, he even had a career year for points and was close to a career year in goals. What more can you ask ? That he be Wayne Gretzky ? Why not complain that Traverse didn't become Bobby Orr ?

Both seasons are the equivalent of nothing because they A) never got us to the playoffs, and b) were not in the leaders in scoring.

Ok, so if we don't make the playoffs, nothing anyone will have done is worth anything ? Interesting perspective....

[jkr]

Skilly said:

I measure success in Cups. Brisbois played a very minor role in the last Cup we won.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I remember the six regulars on defense in 93 as:
Odelien, Schneider, Daigneault, Desjardins' Haller and Brisebois. I think Donald Dufresne was the 7th guy.

I know it has been 11 years but I remember Brisebois as a regular during the playoffs. Also, he was only 22 & in his second full season so he may not have logged the same minutes as the others.

[Skilly]

I did not say we give up a forward. We have 4 Million if we don't resign Brisebois in 2002. I was unaware that we are the only team that has to trade a forward and use 4 Million to sign someone.

We don't give him the clause he doesn't come. That's the point isn't it. A career year of 56 points? So we basically gave a no-trade clause to a guy with a career year of 52 points before he came here .... Would you give a no-trade clause to Conroy if we could get him. His career year is 48 points.

If people aren't complaining about Traverse's play then they aren't following this team very good. Why they ever traded for him is beyond me.

Leading your team in points with under 50 points!! That is shameful and anyone who says "hey I had a good year", should be tarred and feathered. When Expansion Teams have a player with more points than our top guy ..... that is nothing to be proud of.

[PTH]

Skilly said:

I did not say we give up a forward. We have 4 Million if we don't resign Brisebois in 2002. I was unaware that we are the only team that has to trade a forward and use 4 Million to sign someone.

Well, suggest a better defenseman who was available then. For free, as a UFA. There weren't any, which is why we got forced to overpay.

We don't give him the clause he doesn't come. That's the point isn't it. A career year of 56 points? So we basically gave a no-trade clause to a guy with a career year of 52 points before he came here

Yup; I'm not saying it was a brilliant move, but you can't say he didn't deliver exactly what we should have expected.

.... Would you give a no-trade clause to Conroy if we could get him. His career year is 48 points.

Well, if you're an awful team, having problems attracting players and with a huge gap at Conroy's position... you think about it.

If people aren't complaining about Traverse's play then they aren't following this team very good. Why they ever traded for him is beyond me.

My point was that you can't expect a veteran player to give more than he's shown he can do, in the past.

Leading your team in points with under 50 points!! That is shameful and anyone who says "hey I had a good year", should be tarred and feathered. When Expansion Teams have a player with more points than our top guy ..... that is nothing to be proud of.

It's nothing to be proud of, but the guy in question has nothing to be ashamed of, either. He did all we could expect.

[Skilly]

That's the problem.

People expect lower expectations for one player and higher for another. And they were basically the same throughout their careers pointwise. It irks me to have Perreault sitting on his lovely,( not earned ), no trade clause mustering only 40-50 points a year. And then to see a player such as Koivu work his tail off, game in and game out, bleed bleu,blanc et rouge .... then contract time comes around and they nickel and dime him ...give him a one year contract .... and does he get a no-trade clause .... ohh no .... because you don't produce. And yet his career year was 57 points before last year (and he gets 71 last year) ...... Perreault another supposed offensive guy has a career year of 52 points and the keys to the city are his.

Then they have the nerve to boo Koivu tonight? I am afraid that Koivu is probably playing his last year in Montreal. The city should be ashamed of even thinking of showing him disrespect.

[Skilly]

As for Brisbois .... I will have to do research to see who the available players were in 2002. But I am sure there was somebody ..... it didn't have to be a defenseman ... well because Brisbois didn't play any defense in 2003 either.

[Skilly]

So what could $4.0 Million dollars have gotten us in the summer of 2002?

Marc Bergevin for $400,000
Nathan Dempsy for $550,000
Todd Simpson for $1.4 Million

Heck, even Darius Kasparaitis signed with the Avs for $4.1 Million

So if we picked up a Dempsey for instance ..... we still had 3.5 Million to spend on a forward .... hmmmm I wonder if Andrew Cassels would have come here since he only signed with Columbus for $2.6 Million or Todd Marchant (but I think he was restricted) for $1.5 Million. There were players to be had ..... just had to be willing to get them ...... instead we settled for a $4 Million over-rated defenseman ..... (who had a solid game last night, but we need another 20 solid games from him this year)


If we added an extra million we could have signed Tony Amonte at 5.8 Million ..... too rich I think ... but he was available

[PTH]

Skilly said:

That's the problem.

People expect lower expectations for one player and higher for another. And they were basically the same throughout their careers pointwise.

Still, the reason their numbers are close are Saku's injuries, and nothing else.

It irks me to have Perreault sitting on his lovely,( not earned ), no trade clause mustering only 40-50 points a year. And then to see a player such as Koivu work his tail off, game in and game out, bleed bleu,blanc et rouge .... then contract time comes around and they nickel and dime him ...give him a one year contract .... and does he get a no-trade clause .... ohh no .... because you don't produce.

Well, blame the CBA, blame the system, but don't blame the players who live within the system. No-trade clauses only go to UFAs (I suspect that's in the CBA, actually), and yes, that does suck for players who might deserve them more than the UFAs who get them. But it's the system, and we have to live with it, warts and all.

And yet his career year was 57 points before last year (and he gets 71 last year) ...... Perreault another supposed offensive guy has a career year of 52 points and the keys to the city are his.

I think you're overstating your case; Koivu is more highly paid and more highly regarded all-around.

Then they have the nerve to boo Koivu tonight? I am afraid that Koivu is probably playing his last year in Montreal. The city should be ashamed of even thinking of showing him disrespect.

Well, I'm not ashamed that people would consider booing, but I'm deeply ashamed at seeing people boo Saku over something this meager.

[PTH]

Skilly said:

So what could $4.0 Million dollars have gotten us in the summer of 2002?

Marc Bergevin for $400,000
Nathan Dempsy for $550,000
Todd Simpson for $1.4 Million

Heck, even Darius Kasparaitis signed with the Avs for $4.1 Million

None of those guys are offensive defensemen in any way, shape or form. Dempsey was a complete unknown.

So if we picked up a Dempsey for instance ..... we still had 3.5 Million to spend on a forward .... hmmmm I wonder if Andrew Cassels would have come here since he only signed with Columbus for $2.6 Million or Todd Marchant (but I think he was restricted) for $1.5 Million. There were players to be had ..... just had to be willing to get them ...... instead we settled for a $4 Million over-rated defenseman ..... (who had a solid game last night, but we need another 20 solid games from him this year)

I agree he got overpaid, but we didn't have that many options. And I don't see how his no-trade clause is hurting us to such a terrible extent; his contract makes him hard to trade anyhow.

If we added an extra million we could have signed Tony Amonte at 5.8 Million ..... too rich I think ... but he was available

Hey, I wanted to keep Asham, let Rucinsky go as a UFA rather than get Audette, and use the cash from the non-acquisitions of Audette and Czerkawski to get Amonte.

We can dream on at this point, but some things are done. IMO, Perreault was acquired, did all we could expect from him, and now that Ribs is fairly proven we can let him fade away, and Brisebois will be in the same situation next year. Neither Yanic nor Patrice was going to fetch much in a trade, so I don't see why you're focusing on those 2.

[blaise]

Free agents are just that. They don't have to sign with the first team that shows interest in them. I don't think Perreault had many options, and besides he liked the idea of playing in Montréal.

Nathan Dempsey had not established himself in 2002. In fact, he was viewed by many as a career minor leaguer, and his reputation was that of a strictly offensive defenseman with less credibility than Brisebois. He wasn't an obvious alternative.