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Post by seventeen on Nov 12, 2014 0:14:17 GMT -5
Those are all good ideas, habsorbed. We have seen it before, though, that Therrien usually defaults to his veterans. The comments made by Bergevin at his presser today also don't bode well for the kids. "They're going to be here for a long time, but they know they have to get better", or something along those lines. In other words, he's opened the door for Therrien to use Gonchar. I'd bet that Gonchar will be dressed for the first game he's available. I won't guess who'll sit, but I will say we'll have the highest average age for dmen in the league for that game.
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Post by habsorbed on Nov 12, 2014 1:06:24 GMT -5
Those are all good ideas, habsorbed. We have seen it before, though, that Therrien usually defaults to his veterans. The comments made by Bergevin at his presser today also don't bode well for the kids. "They're going to be here for a long time, but they know they have to get better", or something along those lines. In other words, he's opened the door for Therrien to use Gonchar. I'd bet that Gonchar will be dressed for the first game he's available. I won't guess who'll sit, but I will say we'll have the highest average age for dmen in the league for that game. I have no doubt Gonchar will play immediately. You don't pick up a $5 million player and not dress him. For all we know he will click wonderfully with the Habs, and his follow countrymen, For a change, I'm looking forward to a #55 being in the line up. I have no problem with the highest average age on D as long as they are rested and not overplayed.
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Post by UberCranky on Nov 12, 2014 5:14:16 GMT -5
Teh "Russian" factor will be HUGE. Markov. Emelin and Gonchar are now half he Habs defense. Ther will be a lot of pride on the line and it will pay dividends.
Do not be surprised if those three play the best hockey that given their age, may match their career highs.
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Post by BadCompany on Nov 12, 2014 8:41:54 GMT -5
I wonder in particular about Emelin. Markov is Markov, he's not going to change, but Emelin has definitely been riding a roller-coaster of career so far. We know Gonchar comes in highly regarded in the "mentor" department (Malkin lived with him for two years in Pittsburgh) and while we might not think a veteran like Emelin could use some help he is largely alone on the team. I can't say I know the team dynamics or anything, but Emelin doesn't appear to have a great grasp of the language, and while Markov is there we know Markov isn't the "reaching out" type (or at least he doesn't seem to be). I don't think we got Gonchar specifically to hold Emelin's hand, but it might be a nice little side benefit. We also know that Gonchar has spent most of his career playing on the right side.
Markov - Subban Emelin - Gonchar/Weaver Beaulieu - Gilbert
Rotate Gonchar and Weaver?
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Post by Willie Dog on Nov 12, 2014 9:23:54 GMT -5
I wonder in particular about Emelin. Markov is Markov, he's not going to change, but Emelin has definitely been riding a roller-coaster of career so far. We know Gonchar comes in highly regarded in the "mentor" department (Malkin lived with him for two years in Pittsburgh) and while we might not think a veteran like Emelin could use some help he is largely alone on the team. I can't say I know the team dynamics or anything, but Emelin doesn't appear to have a great grasp of the language, and while Markov is there we know Markov isn't the "reaching out" type (or at least he doesn't seem to be). I don't think we got Gonchar specifically to hold Emelin's hand, but it might be a nice little side benefit. We also know that Gonchar has spent most of his career playing on the right side. Markov - Subban Emelin - Gonchar/Weaver Beaulieu - Gilbert Rotate Gonchar and Weaver? I like emelin and gonchar together and if they are our 2nd pair, then yes, Weaver has to be rotated in and out otherwise Gonchar will be done by the end of the regular season. I heard on TSN690 this morning that one of the radio guys suggested that Gonchar not play Thursday and watch from the press box to see our PP in action and provide comment. I think this is a good idea given Gonchar has been on the 1st PP unit on all teams he has been on IIRC.
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Post by Polarice on Nov 12, 2014 9:26:27 GMT -5
Listened to Gonchar's interview, he waived his no trade to come to Montreal.
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Post by franko on Nov 12, 2014 9:38:17 GMT -5
Listened to Gonchar's interview, he waived his no trade to come to Montreal. said he'd be willing to be traded to a Stanley Cup contender. nice to be thought of that way. finally.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Nov 12, 2014 9:52:34 GMT -5
Listened to Gonchar's interview, he waived his no trade to come to Montreal. said he'd be willing to be traded to a Stanley Cup contender. nice to be thought of that way. finally.
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Post by CentreHice on Nov 12, 2014 10:02:30 GMT -5
I heard on TSN690 this morning that one of the radio guys suggested that Gonchar not play Thursday and watch from the press box to see our PP in action and provide comment. I think this is a good idea given Gonchar has been on the 1st PP unit on all teams he has been on IIRC. Why not just show him video of our PP? It's the same thing over and over…..
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Nov 12, 2014 10:02:42 GMT -5
Eller and Beaulieu for Yakupov. The talk is it's just Beaulieu for Yakupov now. If this is true then I wonder if maybe Bergeving and Therrien liked what they saw from Darren Dietz ... he had a very impressive camp and maybe they think he could fill in for Beaulieu ... that's just me, though ... Cheers.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Nov 12, 2014 10:06:32 GMT -5
I wonder in particular about Emelin. Markov is Markov, he's not going to change, but Emelin has definitely been riding a roller-coaster of career so far. We know Gonchar comes in highly regarded in the "mentor" department (Malkin lived with him for two years in Pittsburgh) and while we might not think a veteran like Emelin could use some help he is largely alone on the team. I can't say I know the team dynamics or anything, but Emelin doesn't appear to have a great grasp of the language, and while Markov is there we know Markov isn't the "reaching out" type (or at least he doesn't seem to be). I don't think we got Gonchar specifically to hold Emelin's hand, but it might be a nice little side benefit. We also know that Gonchar has spent most of his career playing on the right side. Markov - Subban Emelin - Gonchar/Weaver Beaulieu - Gilbert Rotate Gonchar and Weaver? I just hope some of these guys have enough gas in the tank to make it to the playoffs, let alone play in them ... Markov 35, Weaver 36 and Gonchar 40 ... the plus for me, anyway, is that there's a lot of experience that Beaulieu and Subban can benefit from ... Tinordi and Dietz, too, for that matter ... Cheers.
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Post by Skilly on Nov 12, 2014 10:39:10 GMT -5
If Tinordi is the casulaty because of this trade ... then Bergevin better work the phones and find a way to get him in the lineup.
Without Tinordi, our defense is looking very weak in front of our net. I see alot of stick checkers and no one who can remove the man from in front of Price. Yes Emelin can do it, but he isn't going to be on the ice for 60 minutes. We NEED another on the ice every game.
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Post by Willie Dog on Nov 12, 2014 10:47:55 GMT -5
I heard on TSN690 this morning that one of the radio guys suggested that Gonchar not play Thursday and watch from the press box to see our PP in action and provide comment. I think this is a good idea given Gonchar has been on the 1st PP unit on all teams he has been on IIRC. Why not just show him video of our PP? It's the same thing over and over….. It's insanity I tells ya... insanity.
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Post by blny on Nov 12, 2014 11:07:36 GMT -5
Tinordi sent to Hamilton.
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Post by GNick99 on Nov 12, 2014 11:09:06 GMT -5
Tinordi sent to Hamilton. I knew that was coming with yesterday's trade
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Post by Willie Dog on Nov 12, 2014 12:41:10 GMT -5
Tinordi sent to Hamilton. I knew that was coming with yesterday's trade At least he'll get some ice time.
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Post by seventeen on Nov 12, 2014 13:17:20 GMT -5
One factor we may be forgetting is that without Tinordi, our toughness factor is down to Brandon Prust, period. Beaulieu showed us something we weren't expecting, but Nathan's not that kind of player unless pushed. Besides, he is probably going to be the odd man out, so it still leaves us with one 'tough' guy in the line-up. Not enough IMO.
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Post by BadCompany on Nov 12, 2014 13:20:50 GMT -5
About Therrien "blocking the kids".
First of all, 95% of all coaches in professional leagues will prefer a veteran over a kid, as proven by my 100% accurate statistical analysis of careful thought and wild assumptions. When your job and career is on the line people tend to go with what they know. Therrien is hardly the exception in this matter.
Second of all, if anything Therrien actually plays a lot of kids. Consider:
* PK Subban: 25 * Max Pacioretty: 25 * Lars Eller: 25 * Brendan Gallagher: 22 * Alex Galchenyuk: 20 * Jathan Beaunordi: 21-22
That's SIX players 25 and under dressed for every single game this season. Now consider that Sekac (22) appears to have won a spot, and Bournival (22) seems almost assured of replacing Drayson Bowman (25) once he is healthy and Therrien will be icing a lineup with EIGHT players 25 and under. Maybe seven if Gonchar permanently displaces Beaunordi.
I would like to see at least one of Beaulieu or Tinordi in the lineup every game (and that could still happen) but even if it doesn't I'm not sure a valid argument can be made that Therrien refuses to play kids.
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Post by CentreHice on Nov 12, 2014 13:55:46 GMT -5
One good thing about Tinordi's yo-yo treatment….it doesn't affect his trade value.
I think he's MB's wild card. Throw his name into a deal and the other GM thinks more than twice.
If MB makes a move to get us the odds-on "right guy", I think it'll be Tinordi who gets it done.
Unlike Gainey foolishly adding McDonagh in return for a big contract has-been, I think any MB deal including Tinordi would be in the acquisition of a key missing element.
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Post by Willie Dog on Nov 12, 2014 14:26:16 GMT -5
One good thing about Tinordi's yo-yo treatment….it doesn't affect his trade value. I think he's MB's wild card. Throw his name into a deal and the other GM thinks more than twice. If MB makes a move to get us the odds-on "right guy", I think it'll be Tinordi who gets it done. Unlike Gainey foolishly adding McDonagh in return for a big contract has-been, I think any MB deal including Tinordi would be in the acquisition of a key missing element. I will not be a happy camper if MB trades Tinordi. We have no size on the back end and if this team can make it to the SCF, we need some size on the ice to help Carey out against almost all of the western teams. NATHAN BEAULIEU 6'2" 194 ALEXEI EMELIN 6'2" 217 TOM GILBERT 6'2" 204 SERGEI GONCHAR 6'2" 210 ANDREI MARKOV 6'0" 197 P.K. SUBBAN 6'0" 214 MIKE WEAVER 5'10" 186 Which one of the D-men above give any opponents forwards a cause for concern?
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Post by Polarice on Nov 12, 2014 14:36:46 GMT -5
Both Subban and Emelin are great hitters....far better than Tinordi.
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Post by seventeen on Nov 12, 2014 14:58:14 GMT -5
About Therrien "blocking the kids". First of all, 95% of all coaches in professional leagues will prefer a veteran over a kid, as proven by my 100% accurate statistical analysis of careful thought and wild assumptions. When your job and career is on the line people tend to go with what they know. Therrien is hardly the exception in this matter. Second of all, if anything Therrien actually plays a lot of kids. Consider: * PK Subban: 25 * Max Pacioretty: 25 * Lars Eller: 25 * Brendan Gallagher: 22 * Alex Galchenyuk: 20 * Jathan Beaunordi: 21-22 That's SIX players 25 and under dressed for every single game this season. Now consider that Sekac (22) appears to have won a spot, and Bournival (22) seems almost assured of replacing Drayson Bowman (25) once he is healthy and Therrien will be icing a lineup with EIGHT players 25 and under. Maybe seven if Gonchar permanently displaces Beaunordi. I would like to see at least one of Beaulieu or Tinordi in the lineup every game (and that could still happen) but even if it doesn't I'm not sure a valid argument can be made that Therrien refuses to play kids. Oh boy, a debate! Firstly, I don't think MT goes out with the deliberate intention of blocking kids, but he certainly prefers vets. That is also understandable because when your own security is at stake, you take what you feel to be the least risky route and often that is a vet, who is less likely to take a chance. They're also less likely to ever get better, but that's a digression. Most coaches do exactly that, fair enough. The main reason for this question coming up with Therrien (lately) is the Bourque/Sekac issue. We were talking 3rd line players, though Sekac may prove to be better than that. Bourque was accomplishing little and Sekac had as many points in far fewer games and looked much more impressive. Was MT under orders to showcase Bourque? Perhaps, but given the fact he cleared waivers and the fact it didn't happen until a month into the season, it makes one wonder. Would Bergevin had some idea fairly quickly, that there were no takers for Bourque? Moen got moved, despite a difficult contract. So one has to wonder about the use of Bourque, though without facts and more information, we're only guessing. With Bourque's demotion, and Moen's trade, there is no veteran option for Therrien. He has to play Sekac, unless he wants to have an even younger guy called up from Hamilton. Perhaps Berg's moves say more about this debate than anything else. Subban - had his difficulties with Therrien and was benched, but hasn't been since winning a Norris Trophy. Tough for any coach to bench a Norris Trophy winner (perhaps McLean did it to Karlsson, but not for a full game). Pacioretty - already a proven scorer and has a perceived chemistry with Desharnais. You play a proven scorer and Patches has never deserved not playing. Lars Eller - I don't see how Lars is helping your argument. He has been benched. Galchenyuk - 3rd overall pick. You gotta play a 3rd overall pick. His ice time, however has not been nearly as significant as others, Mckinnon for example, who is getting about 18 minutes a game in his second season despite the same type of defensive deficiencies as Galchenyuk has experienced. Brendan Gallagher. The energizer bunny. He gets more ice time when he's on the DD line, but Therrien has played him the right amount Nared Tinlieu? The yoyo twins? You're a Dog, no you're a Hab, no, you're a Dog again. Douglas Murray and Frankie Bouillon got more ice time than they did. I rest that case. Though I love that Frankie got us two absolutely crucial goals last year, against Ottawa and against Boston. I still like Cube (bled red white and blue), but it was time for him to move on. I realize coaches feel they can count on a veteran not throwing the puck blindly into the slot compared to a newbie, so they lean toward veterans. It's also a much easier conversation, demoting a kid, compared to telling a vet that they aren't playing. I can identify with Therrien on that point. I guess a lot of my differences relate to the time frame. Therrien is more concerned with the here and now and I'm looking further ahead. If the kids are more responsible defensively by April because they've played more games at the NHL level today, I think its a good thing. If we're 2 spots further down (providing it isn't 9 or less), that's ok. Because regular season never won anything in hockey.
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Post by Skilly on Nov 12, 2014 16:32:42 GMT -5
Bah, just because you are dressed for a game does not mean you are being played correctly, or not mean you are being punished unfairly for mistakes
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Post by blny on Nov 12, 2014 16:39:21 GMT -5
Both Subban and Emelin are great hitters....far better than Tinordi. Yes, but you need a guy that can 'post up' in front. Subban and Emelin haven't shown the ability to do that consistently. If Byfuglien decides to park his butt in the crease, or Chara, neither are going to move them. Tinordi stands a much better chance.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Nov 12, 2014 16:57:19 GMT -5
…about Therrien and the young D… Seeing that Bergevin said himself in his PC that neither one are where they’d like them to be, it obviously isn’t just about Therrien… but really the whole hockey management team that feels that Beaulieu/Tinordi aren’t stepping up to the plate… There are things Berg/Therrien want to see and are asking, that does not materialize in games it seems…
About the Russian factor it can go 2 ways I believe… it can create a great synergy between Markov/Emelin/Gonchar and elevate everyone’s game… but it can definitely also create an aura of negativity if Gonchar isn’t used much, is a healthy scrap, game, etc…
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Nov 12, 2014 17:34:54 GMT -5
Tinordi is first in line to be called up as soon as there is an opening. Prince Charles is first in line to be called up as soon as there is an opening but the line moves very slowly.
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Post by seventeen on Nov 12, 2014 17:58:52 GMT -5
Are you saying that Queen Elizabeth has to die for Tinordi to be called up? That's a tough gig.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Nov 12, 2014 19:43:58 GMT -5
MT overplayed Moen when he had other, and arguably better, options sitting in the rafters.
MT will likely do the same with Gonchar.
If Tinordi and Beaulieu are not quite where management wants them to be, then they need to play, learn from mistakes, be coached, and gain their confidence and their coaches' confidence in them. Ideally this happens over the regular season so they can be inserted into playoff action as needed. Are the two of them really making more mistakes than any of the other D, and I include the past Norris winner in there as well?
Sending them down to Lefebvre land does not seem ideal in adjusting to the NHL game for so many reasons. The only positive is they will play more, but at a lower level.
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Nov 12, 2014 21:17:34 GMT -5
I'm confused by all this but Tinordi is 22 years old and played 39 games in the NHL, most of them likely under 15 minutes a game but guys here talk like he is on his last chance and MT is trying to ruin his confidence. The posters here are all knowledgeable and I'm sure if asked how old a defenseman is when he matures most would say 24-25, bigger guys taking longer to develop, yet that doesn't apply to Tinordi for some reason. Poaters also say he needs to play a lot, make mistakes and gain confidence but isn't that better playing in Hamilton then costing a game in the NHL if he is not ready to be there?
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Post by CentreHice on Nov 12, 2014 21:49:58 GMT -5
Exactly, THF....that's why I'm not worried one way or the other. If MB decides to keep him, he'll likely develop into a force as he reaches 25.
Other GMs know that, too....so MB also has the valuable trade option.
Whether or not he should be in the lineup right now is the real question. I don't think he's being ruined, unless it's his attitude toward the organization.
Hopefully, his dad is offering first-hand guidance at this young, difficult stage.
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