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Post by blny on Jan 7, 2016 14:32:09 GMT -5
Assuming the cost isn't Galchenyuk, of course. EDIT: I mean, that would be a reasonable cost, don't you think? Two 3rd overalls traded for each other? Ours is more proven at this point, but theirs is the local boy that could be worth millions in jersey sales. Would you do that deal? I'm getting more and more tempted. Drouin's draft class was better than Chucky's, but if Chuck was healthy all year, he might have gone first overall. Still, the depth of the two drafts was quite different. Also, I'm not liking what I'm seeing from Chuck lately. He's been stickhandling and not quite getting off a shot or a final pass. Is it just a learning phase or something more serious? I think Berg is taking this very seriously because Drouin is a local boy and we have a dearth of those, especially talented local boys. The big question is what do you think Drouin is going to become? Another Patrick Kane or another Desharnais? A game breaker or another 3rd/2nd liner? Every skill player has to learn when to stop deking. Given that he's been playing with line mates that often can't finish, and he's clearly been directed to shoot more, I think it's just a case of him trying a little too hard to get into prime shooting spots on his own. He's a more complete player that JD. He's got size that JD doesn't. He's established and producing AT CENTER. He's not remotely near his ceiling. Drouin could play center, but he's been playing the wing as a pro. A trade for him that removes our best center just doesn't make sense. It's a backward move imo. It doesn't address immediate scoring needs and creates an even more noticeable hole at center. |
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Post by BadCompany on Jan 7, 2016 15:27:47 GMT -5
Let's look at Beaulieu. Nathan just turned 23. He's been brought along steadily and earned his spot. If we swapped out Juulsen for Beaulieu, how long would we have to wait for the kid to make the jump? How long before he's playing in the NHL at the level that Beaulieu is right now? I try to keep in mind that Markov has another year left. The fact that Beaulieu has taken first pair minutes from Markov of late shows that the team sees him in the same way many do: Andrei's replacement. By moving Nathan, we potentially rush Juulsen. The current coaching staff and mgt like lhd D on the left and vice versa. Moving Beaulieu means there's really no one ready to slide into that role. Petry is a rhd right side guy. Pateryn too. Tinordi is an unrealistic thought. Emelin? No. Barberio? Maybe. Without Beaulieu, post Markov you're looking at: ******-Subban Emelin/Barberio-Petry Emelin/Barberio-Pateryn Tinordi? Sure, Berg could look to the UFA market, but Nathan has another year at a very cheap $1 million. When Markov comes off the books, you can look to lock him down. Still an RFA, hopefully they can by some UFA years and get him for Emelin money long term. Juulsen is still a prospect. A very good one, but still a prospect. If moved, we should be able to find a similar player in the coming draft and only have given up a year in development to address a dire need in Montreal. Beaulieu is a known, burgeoning, commodity, and a lot harder to replace. I agree (and I also don't think Beaulieu alone would be enough). Having said that, IF Bergevin can swing a Beaulieu for Drouin deal of some sort I think his very next target should be Marc Edouard Vlasic. Minute eating defenseman out of San Jose, and of course another local boy. Got a couple more years left on his contract, but in a reasonable-enough $4.25 million range (or something like that). Sharks don't look like they are going to make the playoffs this year, and while I doubt they are shopping Vlasic a blow-their-socks-off offer would probably get it done. It's doable, in my opinion. But of course I'm not the ones manning the phones. As an aside, I wouldn't give up Galchenyuk for Drouin either. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 7, 2016 16:25:18 GMT -5
Marinaro's musings on the upside to getting Drouin…. He's a highly-skilled player…only 20… He's from Quebec, and would have a great shot at being the Habs' first French-Canadian forward star since Damphousse…maybe Turgeon. -============================================================ It would give us two consecutive 3rd overall picks (2012 and 2013). Isn't it about time Bergevin pulled the trigger on a big deal? Assuming the cost isn't Galchenyuk, of course. EDIT: I mean, that would be a reasonable cost, don't you think? Two 3rd overalls traded for each other? Ours is more proven at this point, but theirs is the local boy that could be worth millions in jersey sales. Would you do that deal? If that were to go down we'd soon be bellyaching about how thin we are at centre, more than we are now ... I don't know what combination it would take to land Drouin, but Bob McKenzie suggested that the offer from the Habs would have to be light years better than any other offer ... he qualified that by saying you have to consider Drouin would be in the same division, how many times Tampa would see him return to their building (both regular season and playoffs) ... this is why the price would be high ... Cheers. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 7, 2016 16:35:34 GMT -5
Thanks. Scott doesn't have great foot speed anymore, but that's not a huge concern for me. He's still producing offensively. He's got 15g and 30p in 40g for a bad Columbus team. There's enough team speed in Montreal that the can afford a slower guy who still plays a big game and contributes statistically. He could be the trailer on plays, and he can set up in the slot effectively. He's no slower than Jagr, that's for sure. He's got 3 years left at a hit of $4.75 million. That would be the biggest concern, but he's still producing. He had a bad lockout year, but rebounded with 52 and 60 points the last two years respectively, and the 60 points he's on pace for now. He's had a 20 and 28 goal season. The 15 this year puts him in a similar track. He'd be second in points and goals for us. I'd really want to send salary back. Jackets need help on D, and they're a lottery team. Their GM, Kekelainen, drafted Eller when he was in St Louis. I wonder if there'd be interest. Say, Eller, Juulsen and a pick. Eller is the cap dump. Juulsen gives them a promising defender for the future. If they wanted a more established defender, I could consider Beaulieu but it would negate the pick. Listening to P McGuire a couple of days ago and which Habs prospects he'd be comfortable giving up in a trade for Drouin, he said that the only two he WOULD NOT TRADE would be McCarron ("I'd be hesitant because he fills a need for Montreal), and Juulsen ("I think he has a chance to be a very special player"). Welcome back, Marv ... I listen to Pierre McGuire a lot more these days because he's dropped the "WHAMO/MONSTER" stuff he was flogging a few years back ... I'd possibly add Charles Hudon to that list ... both he and McCarron are being developed as centres, which is another need the organization has ... Cheers. |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jan 8, 2016 9:21:27 GMT -5
I think Berg is taking this very seriously because Drouin is a local boy and we have a dearth of those, especially talented local boys. The big question is what do you think Drouin is going to become? Another Patrick Kane or another Desharnais? A game breaker or another 3rd/2nd liner? Yeah. I would tread EXTREMELY carefully. The fact that Drouin was a top 3 pick doesn't mean that much to me. Benoit Pouliot was a top draft pick as well and we all know the top of the draft is littered with busts (see Daigle, Alexandre). AND you consider that Drouin's junior track record was in large part a function of playing with MacKinnon.... I just don't know how anybody can be sold on this kid, and no way would I give up Galchenyuk or Beaulieu. That's just too much actual production in exchange for nothing more than potential at this point and it's not like Drouin hasn't had chances in Tampa.
Unless Berg has a unique insight into the kid, I would not push this too hard. If Drouin can be had for prospects/picks and a non-essential roster player then fine, but I'm not moving a core piece for Drouin. Too risky, IMO.
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Post by blny on Jan 8, 2016 12:10:25 GMT -5
I think Berg is taking this very seriously because Drouin is a local boy and we have a dearth of those, especially talented local boys. The big question is what do you think Drouin is going to become? Another Patrick Kane or another Desharnais? A game breaker or another 3rd/2nd liner? Yeah. I would tread EXTREMELY carefully. The fact that Drouin was a top 3 pick doesn't mean that much to me. Benoit Pouliot was a top draft pick as well and we all know the top of the draft is littered with busts (see Daigle, Alexandre). AND you consider that Drouin's junior track record was in large part a function of playing with MacKinnon.... I just don't know how anybody can be sold on this kid, and no way would I give up Galchenyuk or Beaulieu. That's just too much actual production in exchange for nothing more than potential at this point and it's not like Drouin hasn't had chances in Tampa.
Unless Berg has a unique insight into the kid, I would not push this too hard. If Drouin can be had for prospects/picks and a non-essential roster player then fine, but I'm not moving a core piece for Drouin. Too risky, IMO.
Not to nitpick, but living in the Halifax area and having seen JD play with Mac and Ehlers, I can tell you that his play here was not a result of playing with Nathan. They fed off each other equally. There were only two differences in their games. One, MacKinnon skates far more powerfully. Not necessarily faster, but he's got a dynamic stride. Two, Nathan shoots the puck better. Drouin's shot is much like that of Ehlers. It isn't his strength. |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jan 8, 2016 13:20:49 GMT -5
Still, he's scored a total of 6 goals in 95 NHL games. He's well off the development pace set by Galchenyuk, and we all complain that he's been mishandled by Therrien.
I admit to knowing next to nothing about Drouin, but the chatter right now is that it would take something like Beaulieu, Scherbak, and a 1st to get Drouin, which I think is ludicrous for a guy who has proven nothing at the NHL level, and may very well be a bust. Beaulieu is a top 4 dman on just about any team and is only getting better. Drouin may be a legit top 6 guy in waiting, but one would need to be highly confident in that assessment to pull the trigger on a deal like that. I just don't see it. And it's not like Tampa plays a conservative style - by all accounts a guy like Drouin should be able to adapt, so I don't think the blame can just lie with management.
No thanks. Too much downside for very uncertain upside.
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Post by seventeen on Jan 8, 2016 14:01:59 GMT -5
Good debate. I agree with blny from the standpoint that Drouin did not live off McKinnon to excess. The Mem Cup game showed that Drouin was very capable of setting up Mckinnon. That's his strength, in fact, drawing opponents and creating space for his teammates. In the NHL, I think you have to present more of a danger of scoring yourself or you'll be branded a Desharnais and opponents will always play the pass rather than the shot. Shoot more, score more and the assists will go up big time.
I'm on the fence regarding trading Beau. I like his game and I think he can get a bit better yet, but he's on the first pairing because Therrien doesn't have anyone else and it's worked out ok so far. I keep coming back to "How good can Drouin get?" and that is a question for Bergevin, Timmins, Dudley, Carriere and Mellanby. I wonder if they'll be at his games this weekend?
I also read an article that pointed out that Drouin has been injured a lot early in his career. He's missed a lot of games. Is that a trend that's likely to continue or just a blip? The Rocket was injured a lot early in his career too and if they'd given up on him, yikes! He seems remarkably slippery to me, like Kane, who you'd like to drive through the boards, but just can't seem to connect. But I haven't seen enough of him, especially as a pro.
It's sure fun speculating, though. Yzerman is in a tough spot as he really can't put him back in the line-up. Too much between he and Cooper and the rest of the team may take it as him quitting on them. But, Yzerman was in a tough spot with St. Louis and came out smelling like a rose. If he finds another GM as dumb or desperate as Sather, he can do it again.
PS. No way I do Beaulieu, Scherbak and a 1st. That's desperation. Beau even up, that's it and even then I'd have my fingers crossed.
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Post by blny on Jan 8, 2016 14:11:26 GMT -5
It's definitely too much to pay given what's transpired.
Those watching him in Tampa have largely said he has been mishandled Therrien-style. He's been put out in 3rd and 4th line roles and minutes. He's shown flashes when given a chance with Stamkos (preseason etc). Remember Therrien's tirade caught on camera for 24/7? He was emphatic in his assertion that the Habs were a grinding team. Everyone on this board knows the team was never built to grind. We've had some players that can, but the roster as a whole isn't made for that kind of game. Well, neither is Drouin. He's a skill player. One who works the perimeter to find holes. He will skate through those holes, pass, or shoot. He isn't a grinder. He isn't built for it. If your coach throws you on the ice for 8 minutes a game and tells you to grind, and the only regular occurrence is that you get hurt, it should tell you something. Meanwhile, guys like Killorn and Callahan - tweeners built for that 3rd line game - are playing with Stamkos.
I'm not saying that Drouin should have demanded a trade, but I'm sympathetic to the reasons he asked for one. Hockey is the only game where it's acceptable to take a player and try to make him something else to suit your needs as an organization or coach. I don't see football taking college running backs who were top draft picks and telling them they're going to become linebackers. Sure, a rookie might pull duty on special teams, but he's going to get snaps in the role he was drafted for. Hockey's seemingly incessant need to dictate terms to players, to take a player and mold them into something different really is quite perverse.
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Post by madhabber on Jan 20, 2016 19:21:04 GMT -5
TVA Sport just announced that Drouin has been suspended by TB, for not showing up for tonight's Siracuse game. Can't let him sit too long.
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Post by blny on Jan 20, 2016 19:34:01 GMT -5
TVA Sport just announced that Drouin has been suspended by TB, for not showing up for tonight's Siracuse game. Can't let him sit too long. Wow. Ive been a Drouin supporter to this point, but that's over the line. Bailing on his AHL team mates like that sends a really bad message. To go to that extreme, you'd have to think that maybe Yzerman told him he tried but couldn't find a good deal out there and he was going to have to put his head down and work hard. The result is Drouin really trying to force his hand. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 20, 2016 19:34:04 GMT -5
TVA Sport just announced that Drouin has been suspended by TB, for not showing up for tonight's Siracuse game. Can't let him sit too long. That's an affirm buds ...
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Post by blny on Jan 20, 2016 19:57:29 GMT -5
Statement from Walsh, his agent ...
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Post by seventeen on Jan 20, 2016 20:25:54 GMT -5
Doesn't bother me. All along, I've thought that Yzerman held all the cards. He could just wait and wait and wait until someone gave him exactly what he wanted and it wouldn't be cheap. But with one quick stroke, Drouin and Walsh have sped up the process. Yzerman now has a depreciating asset. The longer this goes, the less that other teams will offer. Hopefully, this spurs Yzerman into dealing sooner rather than later. He's a bit stubborn (understatement of the year), so I think this is progress compared to the prior situation.
I don't hold this against Drouin. In fact I think its smart on he and his agent's part. It's all about strategy, not character. What I would LOVE to know, is just what is it about the Tampa organization that's causing this dissatisfaction (St. Louis, Stamkos and Drouin).
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 20, 2016 21:26:19 GMT -5
I don't know man ... I'm kind of leery about bringing him in ... you take him you take the drama ... don't need any more of that in Montreal ...
Cheers.
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Post by jkr on Jan 20, 2016 22:05:09 GMT -5
I don't know man ... I'm kind of leery about bringing him in ... you take him you take the drama ... don't need any more of that in Montreal ... Cheers. Same feelings here. Comes across as selfish. He has bailed on his team & put himself 1st. Yzerman should let him sit & concentrate on more important things like signing Stamkus. |
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Post by CentreHice on Jan 20, 2016 22:44:03 GMT -5
Well, who else is on the market....as a #3 overall pick....who scored over 100 pts. his last two years in Junior? Who we might get for a better price now that Walsh has put his client's interests first, as all good agents should do?
If Yzerman doesn't want him...then he must think he's not good enough....or is a problem. He should be happy to get rid of him.
And it doesn't necessarily mean that Drouin is a universal problem child.....maybe something just didn't click with Cooper/Yzerman.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 0:04:45 GMT -5
This could backfire. What happens if Yzerman doesn't trade him "quickly enough?" Drouin would look quite the fool.
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Post by blny on Jan 21, 2016 6:37:15 GMT -5
It's more than interesting that Walsh is his agent. Drama seems to follow Allen around.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 21, 2016 8:20:18 GMT -5
Well, who else is on the market....as a #3 overall pick....who scored over 100 pts. his last two years in Junior? Who we might get for a better price now that Walsh has put his client's interests first, as all good agents should do? If Yzerman doesn't want him...then he must think he's not good enough....or is a problem. He should be happy to get rid of him. And it doesn't necessarily mean that Drouin is a universal problem child.....maybe something just didn't click with Cooper/Yzerman. Heard on TSN 690 that Cooper doesn't want Drouin in the lineup any longer ... Yzerman has had problems with St Louis, Stamkos and now, Drouin ... Cheers. |
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jan 21, 2016 18:15:05 GMT -5
In retrospect, Tinordi was a good soldier who did everything he could and was mistreated by the team. Yzerman is not a fool so there must be problems with Drouin that make him less desirable to the Lightning. I would take him for the right price. He won't produce immediately but he will score more than Eller ever will over his career. I remember Corey Locke being a scoring star in juniors who couldn/t translate into the NHL. He COULD be a great fit on the Habs with his speed, shot and playmaking.
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Post by folatre on Jan 21, 2016 20:46:59 GMT -5
Markov perhaps should move this spring to contender. To trade Beaulieu for Drouin straight seems to be Canadiens assume disproportional risk.
Galchenyuk for Drouin is beyond logic for an organisation with Plekanec and Desharnais.
For me Gilbert, Scherbak, and a 2016 second or 2017 first. I am sure other clubs with deeper talent pool have capacity to offer more, no doubt. But whoever acquires him, reality is that Drouin is worth less than he was when drafted or even three months ago.
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Post by blny on Jan 21, 2016 21:48:41 GMT -5
Markov perhaps should move this spring to contender. To trade Beaulieu for Drouin straight seems to be Canadiens assume disproportional risk. Galchenyuk for Drouin is beyond logic for an organisation with Plekanec and Desharnais. For me Gilbert, Scherbak, and a 2016 second or 2017 first. I am sure other clubs with deeper talent pool have capacity to offer more, no doubt. But whoever acquires him, reality is that Drouin is worth less than he was when drafted or even three months ago. Pedigree or no, I don't think I'd trade Scherbak for him straight up. Ok, maybe I would, but I wouldn't be adding anything of significance. |
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Post by Cranky on Jan 21, 2016 21:59:44 GMT -5
I'm betting Yzerman will win any trade with the Habs. He's going to extract the "intangible" which is very dollar tangible of a local bred star.
If I'm Yzerman, I'm going to ask for Galchy. Maybe even throw in a few donuts. From GM and Molson perspective, that's extra money, extra positive publicity, getting rid of a "problem" and......did I mention lots of money in the bank?
(I have extra barrels of cynicism if anyone needs it.)
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Post by GNick99 on Jan 27, 2016 8:11:28 GMT -5
If we end up with top 10 pick that would be getting close to good value for the disgruntled Drouin. May have to add a decent prospect but not a top one
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Post by blny on Jan 27, 2016 9:06:48 GMT -5
I'm prepared to tank completely. Write-off the year. I'd take anyone from the top 3 over Drouin right now, as 17 year olds. Heck, I'd take anyone of them over a couple of people being used in our top 6. Matthews, Laine, and Puljujarvi are all studs; big, mobile, use their bodies, and can score.
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Post by madhabber on Jan 27, 2016 10:46:30 GMT -5
The problem here is Yzerman thinks at the very least, Drouin's value is the same as when he drafted him. It isn't. This is the third season since his draft and he hasn't carved himself a spot in the NHL yet and for a 3rd overall pick, that's not good. Plus the public trade request and quitting on his team thing have downgraded his value considerably in my eyes. I wouldn't trade for him at this point unless we could get him for a song. I put his value at less than a McCarron at this point, maybe on par with Ghetto. More upside, but the downside is more attitude and having to deal with his agent again.
So that's it, Ghetto for Drouin or nothing.
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Post by seventeen on Jan 27, 2016 15:53:30 GMT -5
Good reply. If every GM made that same point with Yzerman as they did with us re Tinordi Stevie can just watch his asset turn into a 3rd round choice or worse. He got 3 points in 9 AHL games! That's worse than his NHL pace. I think a lot of GM's have gotten really cheap lately.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 28, 2016 8:18:34 GMT -5
The problem here is Yzerman thinks at the very least, Drouin's value is the same as when he drafted him. It isn't. This is the third season since his draft and he hasn't carved himself a spot in the NHL yet and for a 3rd overall pick, that's not good. Plus the public trade request and quitting on his team thing have downgraded his value considerably in my eyes. I wouldn't trade for him at this point unless we could get him for a song. I put his value at less than a McCarron at this point, maybe on par with Ghetto. More upside, but the downside is more attitude and having to deal with his agent again. So that's it, Ghetto for Drouin or nothing. Yzerman is coveting Drouin the same way Bergevin was coveting Tinordi; however, he hasn't proven anything other than not being able to make the Lightning ... my concern is that Bergevin pays out for Drouin only to see him go the same routes as Angelo Esposito, Mikhail Grigorenko or Louis Leblanc ... I remember a lot of Habs fans wanting these very guys and feeling betrayed when the club didn't select them ... knowing this, I'd agree with you in what Drouin is probably worth; however, I'd just as soon not go after him at all ... like Tinordi, he's an unproven player at the NHL level ... Cheers. |
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Post by madhabber on Jan 28, 2016 10:30:54 GMT -5
The problem here is Yzerman thinks at the very least, Drouin's value is the same as when he drafted him. It isn't. This is the third season since his draft and he hasn't carved himself a spot in the NHL yet and for a 3rd overall pick, that's not good. Plus the public trade request and quitting on his team thing have downgraded his value considerably in my eyes. I wouldn't trade for him at this point unless we could get him for a song. I put his value at less than a McCarron at this point, maybe on par with Ghetto. More upside, but the downside is more attitude and having to deal with his agent again. So that's it, Ghetto for Drouin or nothing. Yzerman is coveting Drouin the same way Bergevin was coveting Tinordi; however, he hasn't proven anything other than not being able to make the Lightning ... my concern is that Bergevin pays out for Drouin only to see him go the same routes as Angelo Esposito, Mikhail Grigorenko or Louis Leblanc ... I remember a lot of Habs fans wanting these very guys and feeling betrayed when the club didn't select them ... knowing this, I'd agree with you in what Drouin is probably worth; however, I'd just as soon not go after him at all ... like Tinordi, he's an unproven player at the NHL level ... Cheers. Good comparisons. I never wanted any of those 3 guys but I knew we were getting Leblanc. You can't draft someone else if the draft is in Montreal and the fans are screaming his name. Gainey didn't want to get booed in his own building and no Brisebois around to take the brunt of those boos. For that reason, I hope we never get the draft in Montreal again. But I would take Drouin for Ghetto and nothing more and nothing else. You have to take a gamble on that skill. But I'd assign him for the rest of the season to the IceCaps. Dominate down there, and next year you can compete for a spot with the big team. |
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