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Post by UberCranky on Jan 10, 2016 1:41:13 GMT -5
First of all, I'm p'off having to post this thread. I really believed we had turned the corner and top four in the league. Completely and utterly fooled AGAIN.
So here is the question, what or where do we stand in the league without Price? Certainly not the top 4 or 5 tesms. That wss an illusion of grand larceny proportions.
Are we THAT bad to be chasing the bottom? Are we bottom 10? Condon plays like Price and we still can't score to pull out a win. So now what? We need Jesus Price to keep the game down to one goal to be even remotly competitive? Seriously?
Anywho....this is about as dark as it's going to get. Can't really get worse then floundaring in the bottom of the league....
So where are we realistically without Price?
.
PS...notice the poll, wont bother to go higher then mediocre.
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Post by seventeen on Jan 10, 2016 1:55:48 GMT -5
Bottom 10 but it was a tough choice. Could be bottom 5 with average injuries sans Price.
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Post by Skilly on Jan 10, 2016 14:34:48 GMT -5
Without a 100% healthy Price, they definitely are not a playoff team. So we are starting at bottom 10. I've run through the stats ad nauseum regarding last season, and where we would be if Price was merely 0.920-0.925. And that was not pretty.
Now this year, our goalies are playing decent. Goaltending is not the problem. We are still expecting way too much offense from guys who have no reason being on the top two lines. And our GM hasn't met a reclamation project that doesn't interest him ...
Bottom 5. We need goals. Again and again and again and again
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Post by folatre on Jan 14, 2016 22:49:50 GMT -5
Anyone (coaches or players) awarded a new contract in last three seasons should transfer 10 percent of their earnings to Carey Price because they received deals that in part reflect Montreal’s place in standings since 2013. Everyone now sees this is not a playoff team without Price.
Is it good value for to spend annually 29.56 million USD on eight roster d-men (highest total in league) when Chicago settle for expenditures on seven d-men of 19.95 million? So this d-corps make Habs a good power play in this league? No, it is mediocre to bad last year and same this season. So this d-corps was the co-equal with Price in the win with the system mantra? No, obviously not.
So all this high price d-men make Canadiens template for tape to tape passing breakouts? No, but tape to boards are apparently to Therrien taste.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2016 12:30:36 GMT -5
Top 10 without Therrien, Bottom 10 with Therrien and without Price.
Bottom 10 without Price and Gallagher and Subban.
Top 10 with Babcock and without Price and Gallagher.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 15, 2016 12:44:37 GMT -5
Top 10 without Therrien, Bottom 10 with Therrien and without Price. Bottom 10 without Price and Gallagher and Subban. Top 10 with Babcock and without Price and Gallagher. Top 1 with Lafleur, Dryden, et al ... seriously, I have no idea where we'd be if this or that ... it's best I don't vote while feeling discouraged ... Cheers.
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Post by franko on Jan 18, 2016 8:48:14 GMT -5
there is a disconnect here. we are blaming MT for the poor spot in the standings (I know, I'm at the head of the list), yet saying that we'd be no better off unless Price plays. this means it's on MB, not MT. put Scotty Bowman in with the Condon/Tokarski/Scrivens combo . . . is this a playoff bound or winning team?
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 18, 2016 8:59:36 GMT -5
I'd be very, VERY surprised if Price can fix this mess all by himself ...
Cheers.
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Post by seventeen on Jan 18, 2016 13:40:47 GMT -5
I doubt it too, Dis. One play yesterday highlights a weakness we've seen all year, that the players seem to situate themselves too far apart. PK had the puck in his own zone, started to come out, had to circle and at that point, he and 3 hawks were the only people visible on the screen which showed the Habs zone up to just outside the blue line. All 3 Hawks were inside Montreal's blue line and angled themselves very well to discourage PK from making a clear, long pass. He had zero options. Maybe we were making a line change, I don't know, but you never hang a player out to dry on their own. On my soccer team, when we were playing smart, we'd look for the defense to bobble the ball or make just a small passing error and then everyone would get up tight to their check and the guy closest to the ball would force the play, hard. All designed to put pressure on the ball carrier to cough it up. Sportsnet showed the Hawks trying one of their long bombs to Kane designed to open up the Habs, but they didn't say a single thing about the other 3 Hawks who were all within 50 feet of the defenseman bringing the puck up. Sure he can look for the bomb. If it's blocked and intercepted there are 3 other guys close by to give support. Very different from Montreal's system.
PK ended up having to try blasting the puck around the boards, but there was still no Hab nearby and the Hawks turned it over. I could coach a peewee team to cover that play better than the Habs did. There are so many basic things that aren't done properly that I can't put it all on the players. The scoring is probably where they take the bulk of the blame, but defensive stuff is all coaching. You don't let players cruise around on their own, unless they're called Gretzky.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2016 2:27:06 GMT -5
there is a disconnect here. we are blaming MT for the poor spot in the standings (I know, I'm at the head of the list), yet saying that we'd be no better off unless Price plays. this means it's on M B, not M T. put Scotty Bowman in with the Condon/Tokarski/Scrivens combo . . . is this a playoff bound or winning team? In this day and age no, you cannot be a +.500 team with below average goaltending, no matter who the coach is.
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Post by BadCompany on Jan 21, 2016 10:26:12 GMT -5
I'm not sure I understand this belief that the team shouldn't miss a beat without Price. Or continue to be just as good. Are we replacing him with an average goalie, and that's it? Or are you swapping our elite player for another elite player? Say, Halak and Kopitar instead of Price?
;-)
My only point was that I don’t think we should apologize for having an elite player, and say that without Price the team isn’t as good. That sort of goes without saying, no? What’s that saying? You’re only as good as your best players? Your best players have to be your best players, and all that? Take away your best player and of course the team suffers. While I agree that Price hides a lot of things I don’t think we would be nearly as bad with an average goalie. Not elite, for sure, but not nearly as bad. For all the praise Condon has been getting his save percentage since Price went down is around .895. The league average is about .918. That’s a HUGE difference. We would have many more points, even if they were only loser points, if they had just average goaltending.
And so what if we have Price? Why do we have to apologize for that? Do the Bruins win the Cup without Chara? Hell no. In fact they don't even get past Montreal that year, and it's not even close. Chara was an elite player, and because of him they won. He is declining now, and not-so-coincidentally so are the Bruins. Do the Kings win the Cup without Quick? Where would the Capitals be without Ovechkin?? Seriously, where would they be?? And for that matter, they STILL needed another player (Holtby) to be putting in an elite season. Take either of those players away and Washington is right back in the middle of the pack. Where would Dallas be without Seguin? Oh yeah, we know the answer to that one - out of the playoffs, which is where they were before he started to really blossom (or join the team). What would the Islanders look like without Tavares? Nashville without Rinne? Actually, that's another good example; last year Rinne was elite (.923), and the Predators finished 6th overall in the league. This year Rinne has been ordinary (if not outright bad, .902) and the Predators are 22nd in the league.
One player can and does make a difference, especially when it’s one of, if not THE best players in the league.
So yes, the team would not be nearly as good without Price. But I don't think that's particularly abnormal or an indication of anything other than you need elite players to be elite.
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Post by franko on Jan 21, 2016 11:07:22 GMT -5
rather than question where would be without Price I think we should be looking at where we are without goal scoring. give Condon a goal or two (give MT a goal or two!) and we aren't in this position. and question MT all you want (let me go wash out my mouth again for sticking up for him) but the guys aren't scoring, and except for "put the EGG line back together" there aren't too many options given. and that's on MB.
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Post by Skilly on Jan 21, 2016 14:16:39 GMT -5
I'm not sure I understand this belief that the team shouldn't miss a beat without Price. Or continue to be just as good. Are we replacing him with an average goalie, and that's it? Or are you swapping our elite player for another elite player? Say, Halak and Kopitar instead of Price? ;-) My only point was that I don’t think we should apologize for having an elite player, and say that without Price the team isn’t as good. That sort of goes without saying, no? What’s that saying? You’re only as good as your best players? Your best players have to be your best players, and all that? Take away your best player and of course the team suffers. While I agree that Price hides a lot of things I don’t think we would be nearly as bad with an average goalie. Not elite, for sure, but not nearly as bad. For all the praise Condon has been getting his save percentage since Price went down is around .895. The league average is about .918. That’s a HUGE difference. We would have many more points, even if they were only loser points, if they had just average goaltending. And so what if we have Price? Why do we have to apologize for that? Do the Bruins win the Cup without Chara? Hell no. In fact they don't even get past Montreal that year, and it's not even close. Chara was an elite player, and because of him they won. He is declining now, and not-so-coincidentally so are the Bruins. Do the Kings win the Cup without Quick? Where would the Capitals be without Ovechkin?? Seriously, where would they be?? And for that matter, they STILL needed another player (Holtby) to be putting in an elite season. Take either of those players away and Washington is right back in the middle of the pack. Where would Dallas be without Seguin? Oh yeah, we know the answer to that one - out of the playoffs, which is where they were before he started to really blossom (or join the team). What would the Islanders look like without Tavares? Nashville without Rinne? Actually, that's another good example; last year Rinne was elite (.923), and the Predators finished 6th overall in the league. This year Rinne has been ordinary (if not outright bad, .902) and the Predators are 22nd in the league. One player can and does make a difference, especially when it’s one of, if not THE best players in the league. So yes, the team would not be nearly as good without Price. But I don't think that's particularly abnormal or an indication of anything other than you need elite players to be elite. Something doesn't seem right with at 0.895 number. His season save percentage is 0.907, and he wasn't playing overly stellar up to Nov 25th. He had a 0.913 save percentage prior to Price's last game on Nov 25th. So in fact, Condon has had a save percentage of 0.903 since Price went down. Still, not that good. And yes, that number looks like a huge difference. Condon has faced 466 shots since Price's injury. Giving up 45 goals. If Condon had a league average save percentage of 0.918, that's 7 less goals against. So it isn't that huge a difference afterall, in my opinion. How many games do we win giving up 7 less goals, considering that in most of these games we cant score more than 1 or 2?? We may win one or two more ... great we have 4 more points at most. But we certainly would still be right where we are, struggling to make the playoffs. We need more goals. No more of this a good defenseman would help the transition and create more goals ... Petry is not helping our offense one iota. We need a purely offensive player. How do we get one? I have no idea. But that is this team's problem. Scoring and weak centermen.
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Post by UberCranky on Jan 21, 2016 17:56:48 GMT -5
One player can and does make a difference, especially when it’s one of, if not THE best players in the league. So yes, the team would not be nearly as good without Price. But I don't think that's particularly abnormal or an indication of anything other than you need elite players to be elite. One player does make a difference, but not from contenders to garbage. You need a weak coaching team to accomplish that lofty exercise. Then you need a complicit and money driven owner to perptuate it. So yes Price makes a difference....but then, given the rest of the circumstances, one can see the indifference the rest of the tesm is giving now. Proof is in the record.
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Post by UberCranky on Jan 21, 2016 18:02:29 GMT -5
rather than question where would be without Price I think we should be looking at where we are without goal scoring. give Condon a goal or two (give MT a goal or two!) and we aren't in this position. and question MT all you want (let me go wash out my mouth again for sticking up for him) but the guys aren't scoring, and except for "put the EGG line back together" there aren't too many options given. and that's on MB. Not scoring.....and you forgot where the scoring came from on our 9 game streak? I keep reading about our non scoring yet i seem to remember all that secondary scoring pre Price injury. How did that magic disappear? How about this....how about the players don't give theose secondary efforts and puck persuit we hsd in that streak? And then ask...why?
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