|
|
Post by Cranky on Jun 16, 2017 15:13:44 GMT -5
After 17 years and two bearing replacements (no fun 8 hour job), I finally succumbed to my wife's demands of spending money. Damn...  I'm a bit obsessive so any time I do something like this, I hunt down every scrap of information. After "exhaustive studies" I came to the conclusion that I should buy a machine with decent reputation. Welcome to our new LG. $1200 plus tax of the latest and greatest in washing machines. I was pretty sure that there was a hidden menu where if found, it would magically make me grow hair in the right places and make the Habs a contender. Two weeks later. Dead. Deader then 17's gigolo career. Dead. Just a metal lump. Enter the dreaded washing machine repairman. The control box had failed. Wonderful, as much as it is annoying, these things happen. He opens the machine and what do i see? The ultimate in the very edge of "efficient design". Translation, they strip every ounce of material out of it where it could do the job for a limited time and if it fails, hello new washing machine. Obviously 1400 bucks grows on trees for these a holes. Now I'm pissed off since the last machine we bought in 2000 at half the price was far better built. In fact, going to Consumers Research, it looks like a quarter of all the washers have problems within 4 years. I wonder, is there such a thing as any home machine designed to work past its 5 year warranty. Which of course was an extra cost. Bearing failure? Forget it, just scrap the machine. Unlike my old machine, two bearings and a seal, 30 bucks of repairs is now $800 tub replacement. Electronic failure? Scrap the machine. In fact, anything past some odd and ends parts, the cost of repairs go into the 500+ range. Thanks to Costco policy, that wonderful washing machine that was going to improve my sex life went back. Since my better half threatened to chain the latest fashionista washboard around my neck if I didn't get a new machine, of I went to investigate coin-op commercial washing machines, the same ones laundromats use. From the lower end of the commercial units, two machines were represented in laundromats, Speed Queen/Huebsch and Maytag/Whirlpool. BTW, the top washers were out of the question because they use massive amounts of water and don't wash as gently as front loaders. We settled for the Maytag machine (MHN33) because I was impressed with the build quality. Far superior to my old 17 year washer and a completely different universe to the LG. Plus, everything is designed to be replaced. Yes, replaced. Laundromats would not exist if everytime a washing machine broke down, they would need a new one. They have a 5 to 7 year warranty in commercial settings. Basically, they are designed to run 12 to 16 THOUSAND cycles compared to 3 to 4 thousand cycles of regular washers. At over 2 grand, they sound expensive but in reality, they are cheaper in the long run. Probably 1/3 the cost per cycle. For us, at 10 washes a week in winter, that represents about 25- 30 years of washing. The comparison is not even close on longevity or cost per cycle. As for all those sing and dance choice of cycles in the LG? Bunk. BS. Crap. Simply advertising. Three cycle lengths for washing, choice of one or two extra rinses beyond the normal two (which is always the maximum of 4 for us) and water temperature. That's it. The LG created the appearance of more cycles by defining each one under sexy names. My wife or I simply press wash length, temperature and GO. I changed the service options on the control panel so extra rinses are the norm and one has to remove that option. Another thing, one can go into the service menu and select extra water. Something that really annoys us is the "spit and wash" that eco nuts have pushed on every new washing machine. I don't care if Arizona has no water, it's not our problem and never will be our problem. So bottom line, I made a mistake by not following my original instinct of never following the crowd. I should of looked for commercial machines right of the bat. Given my experience with the "best" of the pathetic home market, ultimately, it's cheaper to go with the more expensive but far better built commercial washers then the song and dance controls and crap build quality home machines. As for detergent, we use Costco Kirkland brand of LIQUID soap, no powder or packets. Cost per cycle... Machine amortization...15 cents water....12 cents Soap...11 cents Electricity daytime...4 cents Total....42 cents Clean clothes...priceless That's it for my washing machine adventures... |
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Jun 16, 2017 15:40:35 GMT -5
Machines I'm writing about. No coin box.   |
|
|
|
Post by seventeen on Jun 16, 2017 18:05:24 GMT -5
Two weeks later. Dead. Deader then 17's gigolo career. Dead. Just a metal lump. To be fair, I started that when I turned 60, so I might have missed my window of opportunity. If only I could have lost those extra 30 pounds I always consult Consumer Reports when I have to buy appliances. Last time was 11 years ago and basically bought mostly Kenmore Elite. Fridge, dual fuel stove, dishwasher, washer and dryer. Problems-- had to replace a spring in the dishwasher door twice. They improved the part the last time and no problems since. The washer had one thing that had to be fixed a couple of years ago, a seal, I think. That's it. I've always found it worth the price of a subscription. Or maybe you can check it out at the library. You cheapie you. BTW, what's your favourite wine? Not whine, wine. |
|
|
|
Post by seventeen on Jun 16, 2017 18:06:29 GMT -5
Two weeks later. Dead. Deader then 17's gigolo career. Dead. Just a metal lump. To be fair, I started that when I turned 60, so I might have missed my window of opportunity. If only I could have lost those extra 30 pounds I always consult Consumer Reports when I have to buy appliances. Last time was 11 years ago and basically bought mostly Kenmore Elite. Fridge, dual fuel stove, dishwasher, washer and dryer. Problems-- had to replace a spring in the dishwasher door twice. They improved the part the last time and no problems since. The washer had one thing that had to be fixed a couple of years ago, a seal, I think. That's it. I've always found it worth the price of a subscription. Or maybe you can check it out at the library. You cheapie you. BTW, what's your favourite wine? Not whine, wine. |
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Jun 16, 2017 19:10:21 GMT -5
Two weeks later. Dead. Deader then 17's gigolo career. Dead. Just a metal lump. To be fair, I started that when I turned 60, so I might have missed my window of opportunity. If only I could have lost those extra 30 pounds I always consult Consumer Reports when I have to buy appliances. Last time was 11 years ago and basically bought mostly Kenmore Elite. Fridge, dual fuel stove, dishwasher, washer and dryer. Problems-- had to replace a spring in the dishwasher door twice. They improved the part the last time and no problems since. The washer had one thing that had to be fixed a couple of years ago, a seal, I think. That's it. I've always found it worth the price of a subscription. Or maybe you can check it out at the library. You cheapie you. BTW, what's your favourite wine? Not whine, wine. Two weeks later. Dead. Deader then 17's gigolo career. Dead. Just a metal lump. To be fair, I started that when I turned 60, so I might have missed my window of opportunity. If only I could have lost those extra 30 pounds I always consult Consumer Reports when I have to buy appliances. Last time was 11 years ago and basically bought mostly Kenmore Elite. Fridge, dual fuel stove, dishwasher, washer and dryer. Problems-- had to replace a spring in the dishwasher door twice. They improved the part the last time and no problems since. The washer had one thing that had to be fixed a couple of years ago, a seal, I think. That's it. I've always found it worth the price of a subscription. Or maybe you can check it out at the library. You cheapie you. BTW, what's your favourite wine? Not whine, wine. I don't drink. At most I have a beer with a steak and that's it. Guinness Draught. I will drink socially if forced. The LG came from the "Consumer Reports" recommendation from May 2016 issue. Wasn't worth the paper it was written on. The problem with ALL theses testing houses is that they don't test longevity. Any given machine can sing and dance but in the end, if it's not working in 5 years or it cost a lot of money to keep it working, then it's fancy and expensive junk. I bought the current washing machine by searching who had them commercially and how reliable they were. One of the laundromat owners had a lot of them and estimated they had about 6-7 thousand cycles each with very few problems. At 5-8 washes a day in a laundromat where people abuse and cram the hell out of them, that is a far tougher reliability test then throwing 20 cloth samples with various stains on them....and finish testing in a day or two. |
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Jun 16, 2017 19:22:33 GMT -5
I talked to the engineering department who designed these machines. A few things came out of it.
1...Ultra high speeds are BS. in order to give the machine longevity, what commercial washing machine engineers do is use loeer speeds and keep the spin cycle on longer, which achieves the same result as very high speeds but in a shorter time...without the wear and tear,
2....The clothes need room to rotate and plop. it's a combination of forcing water through the cloth and rubbing them together gently. If the machines are packed, none of that happens. Too little is not a problem, too much is simply fails to clean the clothes.
3...Need water to keep dirt in suspension. Too much is no good because it keeps the above conditions from happening (clothes can not rub together) and too little water does not allow the dirt to be suspended.
4....Rinse cycles are very important. They rinse cycle works by pouring water in and then spinning it out. Every cycle removes more and more soap out of the clothing. After 4 cycles, it starts to be diminishing returns because short of taking them down to the local fast running river or hanging them outside and using the garden hose, there is always a bit of soap left behind.
5....always leave the door open to dry out the machine otherwise mold will grow in the hidden tub parts.
It isn't super duper rocket science in washing clothes. Basically wash by rubbing and suspension, then spinning out the water, then successive cycles of adding water, washing action and spin/draining it out. Washing temperature and the amount of times and severity of every cycle is the entire "science" to it.
|
|
|
|
Post by franko on Jun 16, 2017 22:31:53 GMT -5
the last machine we bought in 2000 at half the price was far better built. In fact, going to Consumers Research, it looks like a quarter of all the washers have problems within 4 years. I wonder, is there such a thing as any home machine designed to work past its 5 year warranty. Which of course was an extra cost. Tonight's goal was to replace the 17 year old dishwasher (what is it about old and 17?). piece of cake, I figured . . . the cake was stale. the guy who installed the dead/previous one must have found parts in his garbage bin . . . some odd-sized parts that can't be re-used and a drainage system that the guys at my local hardware store couldn't believe worked. I hold off buying new machines unless I absolutely have too . . . my question: is there such a thing as any home machine designed to work up to its 5 year warranty? the new machine I bought warranties some of its parts for 10 years, but the sales person said that I'll have to replace the machine by then because the other parts will be out of warranty and dead by then.
no wonder our landfills are so full.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Jun 17, 2017 0:21:43 GMT -5
the last machine we bought in 2000 at half the price was far better built. In fact, going to Consumers Research, it looks like a quarter of all the washers have problems within 4 years. I wonder, is there such a thing as any home machine designed to work past its 5 year warranty. Which of course was an extra cost. Tonight's goal was to replace the 17 year old dishwasher (what is it about old and 17?). piece of cake, I figured . . . the cake was stale. the guy who installed the dead/previous one must have found parts in his garbage bin . . . some odd-sized parts that can't be re-used and a drainage system that the guys at my local hardware store couldn't believe worked. I hold off buying new machines unless I absolutely have too . . . my question: is there such a thing as any home machine designed to work up to its 5 year warranty? the new machine I bought warranties some of its parts for 10 years, but the sales person said that I'll have to replace the machine by then because the other parts will be out of warranty and dead by then.
no wonder our landfills are so full.
No wonder. Even the better built older machines need a lot of time and effort to keep them alive. Changing the bearing on the washer took several hours and it wasn't because I lack skill or equipment. I had a full array of tools at home then still had to take the rear of the basket to work, machined two different rings to support the tub housing when pulling the bearings. From an engineering point of view, with very little cost, they could make the bearings easily replaceable...and with a bit more money, do it from the back of the machine without taking it spart......but then....why would you spend another grand if 30 bucks of bearings and seals gave the machine another 5 years of life? That seal cost me $3.75 to replace. Two of those stacked behind each other and a hole between them to relieve any water getting past the first seal would extend the machines life by several years. At the wholesale price, those seals are probably $1.50 and yet, they won't do it. If the seals don't fail, the bearings don't fail. For a buck fifty....you won't spend several hundred in repairs or a new machine. I design and build industrial machines based on process, safety and indusctrability. They design them to get past the warranty period and expensive to repair. Yes, no wonder our landfills are full... |
|
|
|
Post by jkr on Jun 17, 2017 9:15:29 GMT -5
I bought a Maytag HE machine. It lasted less than 4 years before it stopped spinning. Clothes would just be laying in the tub soaking wet. There is no May tag repairman anymore. They have farmed out the service to another manufacturer. It was going to take 2 weeks just to get someone to the house to tell me what's wrong. I called a local guy. He wouldn't come , doesn't look at machines with no agitators. I finally found a repair person from outside of town who would look at it.
He deemed it a piece of crap, recommended a trip to Sears but didn't charge for his time. BTW, my mother's Kenmore washer is 17 years old. I bought something simpler because I felt the Maytag was just going to continue to be a problem.
The newer stuff is just built to fail. I don't need all the technology, just give me clean clothes.
|
|
|
|
Post by franko on Jun 17, 2017 9:37:08 GMT -5
I bought a Maytag HE machine. It lasted less than 4 years before it stopped spinning. Clothes would just be laying in the tub soaking wet. There is no May tag repairman anymore. They have farmed out the service to another manufacturer. It was going to take 2 weeks just to get someone to the house to tell me what's wrong. I called a local guy. He wouldn't come , doesn't look at machines with no agitators. I finally found a repair person from outside of town who would look at it. He deemed it a piece of crap, recommended a trip to Sears but didn't charge for his time. BTW, my mother's Kenmore washer is 17 years old. I bought something simpler because I felt the Maytag was just going to continue to be a problem. The newer stuff is just built to fail. I don't need all the technology, just give me clean clothes. Maytag was bought out by Whirlpool. I started buying Maytag because of the brand name and had nothing but good luck . . . but things are starting to wear out. 5 years ago bought a Samsung fridge; it's well abused and overused due to a home day care, still going but out of warranty in a couple of weeks. Dishwasher runs every day, we'll see how this one lasts. |
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Jun 17, 2017 11:33:20 GMT -5
I bought a Maytag HE machine. It lasted less than 4 years before it stopped spinning. Clothes would just be laying in the tub soaking wet. There is no May tag repairman anymore. They have farmed out the service to another manufacturer. It was going to take 2 weeks just to get someone to the house to tell me what's wrong. I called a local guy. He wouldn't come , doesn't look at machines with no agitators. I finally found a repair person from outside of town who would look at it. He deemed it a piece of crap, recommended a trip to Sears but didn't charge for his time. BTW, my mother's Kenmore washer is 17 years old. I bought something simpler because I felt the Maytag was just going to continue to be a problem. The newer stuff is just built to fail. I don't need all the technology, just give me clean clothes. The machine could stop spinning for something as simple as a belt to as expensive as a failed controller or driver. I'm available for consulting at a reasonable $1,000 per consultation. Plus tax.  Kenmore doesn't make anything, it's just rebranding of existing manufacturers like LG/Samsung/Whirlpool etc. For all you know, it could be whirlpool/Maytag. Repairing is time consuming. For example, to diagnose your stop spinning machine would take 5 minutes to check the belt. Or over an hour to check anything motor related. Even that belt will cost a lot. He has to go get one and come back. That will cost you $20 and $150 in labour. So he finds that you motor is toast. That's $350 plus labour. Include the time that he has to go get the motor then come back to install it. You are up to $550 plus. Are you willing to pay that? Chances are you will say it's time to buy a new one, that is why he said right off the bat, go get a new machine. The reason there are no more Maytag repairmen is that there us no way to justify the cost of repairs against purchasing new. We have arrived at a point where the demand to make machines cheaper has leveled with the ability to keep them running long enough to keep that cycle going. You do have choices. Buy real commercial level and pay twice as much to keep the machine four times longer or buy cheap and keep replacing them. The choices are up to you.... |
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Jun 17, 2017 11:41:20 GMT -5
I bought a Maytag HE machine. It lasted less than 4 years before it stopped spinning. Clothes would just be laying in the tub soaking wet. There is no May tag repairman anymore. They have farmed out the service to another manufacturer. It was going to take 2 weeks just to get someone to the house to tell me what's wrong. I called a local guy. He wouldn't come , doesn't look at machines with no agitators. I finally found a repair person from outside of town who would look at it. He deemed it a piece of crap, recommended a trip to Sears but didn't charge for his time. BTW, my mother's Kenmore washer is 17 years old. I bought something simpler because I felt the Maytag was just going to continue to be a problem. The newer stuff is just built to fail. I don't need all the technology, just give me clean clothes. Maytag was bought out by Whirlpool. I started buying Maytag because of the brand name and had nothing but good luck . . . but things are starting to wear out. 5 years ago bought a Samsung fridge; it's well abused and overused due to a home day care, still going but out of warranty in a couple of weeks. Dishwasher runs every day, we'll see how this one lasts. The brand doesn't matter anymore. When Whirlpool makes a home machine, it follows the laws of "make it cheaper" that Samsung does. So they all land up in the same level of crap construction to be competitive and profitable. Most manufacturers do make better and certainly can make better....but it cost more. Consumers want cheap, cheaper and cheapest. Who do you blame? |
|
|
|
Post by PTH on Jun 17, 2017 11:43:53 GMT -5
Maytag was bought out by Whirlpool. I started buying Maytag because of the brand name and had nothing but good luck . . . but things are starting to wear out. 5 years ago bought a Samsung fridge; it's well abused and overused due to a home day care, still going but out of warranty in a couple of weeks. Dishwasher runs every day, we'll see how this one lasts. The brand doesn't matter anymore. When Whirlpool makes a home machine, it follows the laws of "make it cheaper" that Samsung does. So they all land up in the same level of crap construction to be competitive and profitable. Most manufacturers do make better and certainly can make better....but it cost more. Consumers want cheap, cheaper and cheapest. Who do you blame? Also, often multiple "brands" actually come out of the same factory... |
|
|
|
Post by PTH on Jun 17, 2017 11:48:09 GMT -5
I blame lawyers and marketing. Those two together have made it impossible to distinguish junk from quality, since manufacturers can essentially make outlandish claims with impunity, so even if a brand was better than another, they couldn't get the message out through all the noise that's out there.
As consumers, we have only one metric left: price.
That's also one reason I try to get information from people who'll be motivated to dig through the BS to get the best deal.
Cabbies are my reference for cars: a car is litterally a cabbie's livelihood. They love the Prius, warned me about a certain year's Camry suspension issues, and warned me off of all Mitushbishi vehicles (not because they're bad cars, but because parts are a pain to get and lack of parts can keep cars in the shop for a week or more).
|
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Jun 17, 2017 11:48:47 GMT -5
BTW... for any of you who are handy at repairs, word of advise, keep it to yourself. Unless of course your neighbor is really good looking....
|
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Jun 17, 2017 11:56:51 GMT -5
I blame lawyers and marketing. Those two together have made it impossible to distinguish junk from quality, since manufacturers can essentially make outlandish claims with impunity, so even if a brand was better than another, they couldn't get the message out through all the noise that's out there. As consumers, we have only one metric left: price. That's also one reason I try to get information from people who'll be motivated to dig through the BS to get the best deal. Cabbies are my reference for cars: a car is litterally a cabbie's livelihood. They love the Prius, warned me about a certain year's Camry suspension issues, and warned me off of all Mitushbishi vehicles (not because they're bad cars, but because parts are a pain to get and lack of parts can keep cars in the shop for a week or more). OR hunt down laundromat owners to find out about their washing machines... Even if you have my level of engineering knowledge, you can't apply it because you don't have access to their design. A car or a washing machine is 99% based on what you can't see. As for cars, I buy a new Benz every several to ten years. In the long run, it's no more expensive then buying a Camry. All those taxis in Europe can't be wrong..... |
|
|
|
Post by PTH on Jun 17, 2017 12:25:41 GMT -5
BTW... for any of you who are handy at repairs, word of advise, keep it to yourself. Unless of course your neighbor is really good looking.... Same for anyone who is good with computers - without the good looking proviso, since even if you fix a woman's computer, she still won't see you as anything more than a guy who can help with her computer. |
|
