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Post by Doc Holliday on Oct 24, 2005 12:05:00 GMT -5
...I'll admit I haven't seen one Dogs game this year, but I am certainly concerned (but not surprised) to see that Andrei Kotsisyn has only 1 goal, 2 pts and -3 after 5 games. I guess he follows through from his putrid training camp which followed a pretty mediocre rookie year. When you consider how highly touted this prospect was by our organization, Andrei is severely behind in his development and I'm starting to wonder when and if we're gonna see him put it together in North America.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Oct 24, 2005 12:20:29 GMT -5
...I'll admit I haven't seen one Dogs game this year, but I am certainly concerned (but not surprised) to see that Andrei Kotsisyn has only 1 goal, 2 pts and -3 after 5 games. I guess he follows through from his putrid training camp which followed a pretty mediocre rookie year. When you consider how highly touted this prospect was by our organization, Andrei is severely behind in his development and I'm starting to wonder when and if we're gonna see him put it together in North America. Too soon to label him a bust, but throughout his career he has shown outstanding talent, size, strength and speed; but not production. He player against smaller, weaker slower players and didn't fill the net with pucks. Players like Locke, Hudler and Ribeiro have less ability, size, speed and strength, but have shown more production at every level. I'm certain that Andrei wants to be successful, but he doesn't realize that cruising along on his good looks doesn't get the puck into the net. To Andrei he may think he is working, but lacks the extra effort. Locke sees himself as the #2 scorer in the entire OHL and pushes himself to do better. Hossa didn't lack size or skill. He lacked consistent production through 82 games. |
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Post by Bob on Oct 24, 2005 14:47:42 GMT -5
...I'll admit I haven't seen one Dogs game this year, but I am certainly concerned (but not surprised) to see that Andrei Kotsisyn has only 1 goal, 2 pts and -3 after 5 games. I guess he follows through from his putrid training camp which followed a pretty mediocre rookie year. When you consider how highly touted this prospect was by our organization, Andrei is severely behind in his development and I'm starting to wonder when and if we're gonna see him put it together in North America. Harsh criticism for a guy that basically watched from the bench for the first half of last year and who was absent from the team during world juniors. His first real chance came during the last half of last year. And it was his first year coping with a long schedule in addition to a new culture and new language. Putrid is a word I don't even use on Pierre Dagenais. Now, five games into a season with a team that was thrown together at the very last minute and we wonder why some players are struggling? He may not develop as expected but we should give him as many chances as Marcel Hossa... which means at least another 4 years.  |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Oct 24, 2005 15:40:34 GMT -5
I agree with Bob. A bit early to write off a talented 20-year old.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Oct 24, 2005 17:37:28 GMT -5
Marcel Hossa made a great impression in every camps. He had a strong rookie year and he followed with a very good one the year after. As a 20 year old, Hossa's good play earned him a 10 games tryout, then 34 the season after. Good prospects rarely (I was tempted to use "never" but then there is Micheal Ryder) take 2-3 seasons to establish themselves in devellopment league...
Kostsisyn turns 21 this year and has shown zero so far. It's easy to blame the team, the surroundings and what have you, but other went through what he went through and showed a lot more. As displayed in this year's training camp, the guy is nowhere near the player Timmins advertised on the draft day.
I'm not saying he's a sure bust but in my book he's now a big maybe....
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Post by Bob on Oct 24, 2005 19:52:35 GMT -5
Marcel Hossa made a great impression in every camps. He had a strong rookie year and he followed with a very good one the year after. As a 20 year old, Hossa's good play earned him a 10 games tryout, then 34 the season after. Good prospects rarely (I was tempted to use "never" but then there is Micheal Ryder) take 2-3 seasons to establish themselves in devellopment league... Kostsisyn turns 21 this year and has shown zero so far. It's easy to blame the team, the surroundings and what have you, but other went through what he went through and showed a lot more. As displayed in this year's training camp, the guy is nowhere near the player Timmins advertised on the draft day. I'm not saying he's a sure bust but in my book he's now a big maybe.... First of all you are comparing apples and oranges.... Hossa played for years in North America before turning pro. Secondly, Kostitsyn hasn't taken 2-3 years. In reality, he still has less than one full year of AHL experience. Finally you cannot say that others have gone through what he has gone through. We have no idea of the struggles he faced, the support he had from home and other factors that he would have to cope with. No two players in the league face identical challenges... so I have to dismiss that comment. If he had been a North American player, Kosty would have been an AHL rookie this year and just trying to break into the Hamilton lineup. |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Oct 25, 2005 7:43:52 GMT -5
You are right that not every players are the same, but Kotsysin doesn't have his own set of standards which shields him from comparison. He played a full year in the AHL, his rookie one no matter how you want to avoid calling it that, and will now play his second year. When Timmins and Savard drafted Kots, they said that he was the closest prospect to the NHL and last summer Bob expected Andrei to challenge for a spot in camp which he didn't. Seems to me that either these people had overrated Kots or Kots is playing way below what he can bring.
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Post by Bob on Oct 25, 2005 8:57:42 GMT -5
You are right that not every players are the same, but Kotsysin doesn't have his own set of standards which shields him from comparison. He played a full year in the AHL, his rookie one no matter how you want to avoid calling it that, and will now play his second year. When Timmins and Savard drafted Kots, they said that he was the closest prospect to the NHL and last summer Bob expected Andrei to challenge for a spot in camp which he didn't. Seems to me that either these people had overrated Kots or Kots is playing way below what he can bring. My guess is he is playing below what he can bring, for whatever reason. Now it is up to Andrei and the Habs to unlock that talent. |
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Post by clear observer on Oct 25, 2005 13:57:23 GMT -5
Let's not discount the always severe effects of "culture-shock" on some of these youngsters.
He clearly needs alot of adjustment-time. Hopefully he'll find his comfort-zone and start to show his "stuff".
Keeping my fingers crossed.
CO
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Post by IamCanadiens on Oct 25, 2005 14:29:43 GMT -5
No surprise that I, as well as most if not all others knew who this thread was about based on the thread title. I think people expect way too much, way too fast from prospects these days. Look at how long it's taken or taking high draft picks too develop these days: Marleau, Legwand, Jokinen, etc.... Give the guy some time.........I think drafting his brother will only help him. Maybe they'll play together next year. He'll have someone to speak his native tongue with and it'll bring a little familiarity. And being upstaged or outworked by your little brother can be quite a kick in the package.
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Post by Forum Ghost on Oct 25, 2005 15:42:08 GMT -5
I remember watching the US vs. Belarus game from last year's WJC and Andrei Kostitsyn was THE best player on the ice. From his skating, to his shot, to his ability to make moves at top speed, Andrei was toying with the US defence every time he ventured into their zone.
I too am disappointed that Kostitsyn has not dazzled us yet, but we do have to consider that he probably went through a huge culture shock last year and that he'll need some time to adjust to the North American game. By comparison, I was disappointed with Perezhogin's play when he first came to North America but, over time, he too adjusted and now he's a point-per-game rookie in the NHL.
These top prospects have a high level of talent and are thrown to the wolves (ie. media and fan pressure) at a young age. Sometimes we have to stop and think about the fact that they're just kids who are learning to play with men who are 10 and 15 years older than them.
Look at the hard time that highly touted Jeff Carter is having in the NHL. But Mike Richards, who was not as highly touted as Carter, is doing fine. Each player is different and each player's learning curve is also different.
I'm not too worried about Kostitsyn. The kid's got game. I've seen it with my own eyes. He just needs time to put it all together.
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Post by PTH on Oct 25, 2005 21:18:01 GMT -5
I can understand the Doc for being frustrated, the guy was hyped pretty heavily and then his development seems below average at best.
Still, I'm thinking that he's roughly on schedule. His first AHL year was learning to play in North America, dealing with a new language, new country, new culture, new everything.
This season though, I expect him to finish the year as a dominant, frontline player. Much like Zhogin did - a year to adjust, then a year to learn how to dominate.
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Post by montreal on Oct 25, 2005 22:01:34 GMT -5
...I'll admit I haven't seen one Dogs game this year, but I am certainly concerned (but not surprised) to see that Andrei Kotsisyn has only 1 goal, 2 pts and -3 after 5 games. I guess he follows through from his putrid training camp which followed a pretty mediocre rookie year. When you consider how highly touted this prospect was by our organization, Andrei is severely behind in his development and I'm starting to wonder when and if we're gonna see him put it together in North America. I'm surprised it took 5 games to see this kind of thread actually. One thing I don't agree with is the "pretty mediocre" season. As one of the youngest players in the league, he was 4th on the team in goals with 12 and more importantly he greatly improved upon his biggest weakness, his defensive game. At the start of last season he struggled to get ice time, but by the end of the season he was on the ice late in the game while trying to hold a lead. I personally was disappointed in his lack of offensive production but the Bulldogs struggled to score as a team and he did score more goals then most of his teammates despite often playing with crappy linemates, not knowing English and not used to playing so many games. No doubt the skill is there but at times I wonder if he will work hard enough. I expect him to put up the points this year but from what I've seen and heard coach Lever will play the guys who work hard and it appears he hasn't been too happy with the efforts he's been getting from Kostitsyn. One problem could be that he thought he would get a spot on the team this year, only to find out that he has to work really hard to get there, and he may not want to work that hard. Guess we'll see. |
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Post by drkcloud on Oct 26, 2005 9:10:05 GMT -5
Parise is looking good in comparison, wasn't he taken after K?
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Post by Doc Holliday on Oct 26, 2005 18:58:30 GMT -5
No doubt the skill is there but at times I wonder if he will work hard enough. I expect him to put up the points this year but from what I've seen and heard coach Lever will play the guys who work hard and it appears he hasn't been too happy with the efforts he's been getting from Kostitsyn. A Tamba Bay scout said that Kots was one of the most skilled player in his draft but also added that his work ethic and general attitude, had him at the bottom of many scouts lists... When you get a top 10 pick, you expect these guys to be on a faster track, expecially since that pick was taken before values like Carter, Getzlaf, Parise, Bernier... Like for every HABS fans, I will be really happy if/when Kots suddenly breaks out of his shell (if only for a stint) because right now he hasn't given us much to rave about. |
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Post by The Habsome One on Oct 26, 2005 19:37:36 GMT -5
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Oct 26, 2005 21:25:13 GMT -5
Parise is looking good in comparison, wasn't he taken after K? With Parise still there at #10, I thought the Habs were going there based on their pick of Higgins before and their likely good scouting of Zach over the past few years while watching Higgs. With Kostitsyn, I was excited about the potential upside, as it was clearly a swing for the fences high-risk, high-reward bet. I think that upside is worth it, and given that the kid has shown elements of brilliance (the U-18 in 2003 and the US game at the WJC in 2004 for example) that show what scouts drooled over. He also has shown games of disinterest that show what other scouts have passed over. Only time will tell how this 20 year old pans out. I am in no rush, although I really hope he makes a splash at camp next season. I know it must have been tough for some to watch the Flyers and their pre-season Cup Favourite team last night with two 2003 first rounders in the lineup, while our one first rounder from 2003 still toils struggling for first line ice time in Hamilton (Carter and Richards by the way...nice scoop Bobby, you have two good ones). To me, it takes time for some players to adjust, and I really feel that a real task-master like Don Lever in Hamilton may be just what the doctor ordered for Kosty, as he will soon realize what it takes to make the next step. The one I really worry about is Urquhart, who used up our 40th pick in a deep draft and has yet to see his 2nd AHL game in his second pro season. Ouch. Given that Patrice Bergeron, Shea Weber, Patrick O'Sullivan and others including JF Jacques from Edmonton (who has earned top line ice time in Hamilton way ahead of Urquhart) are just a few guys picked later that round who clearly have adapted miles ahead of string bean Cory, methinks scouts missed that one a bit. It is still too early for sure, but Cory has a lot of ground to make up against his peers. His lack of physical play and the fact that he was even benched at times in Long Beach and failed to make a big splash in the ECHL, sure make me wonder. That upside may still be there, but he is dropping like a rock on the Habs' prospect list. Wake up Cory!! |
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Post by montreal on Oct 26, 2005 22:21:22 GMT -5
No doubt the skill is there but at times I wonder if he will work hard enough. I expect him to put up the points this year but from what I've seen and heard coach Lever will play the guys who work hard and it appears he hasn't been too happy with the efforts he's been getting from Kostitsyn. A Tamba Bay scout said that Kots was one of the most skilled player in his draft but also added that his work ethic and general attitude, had him at the bottom of many scouts lists... When you get a top 10 pick, you expect these guys to be on a faster track, expecially since that pick was taken before values like Carter, Getzlaf, Parise, Bernier... Like for every HABS fans, I will be really happy if/when Kots suddenly breaks out of his shell (if only for a stint) because right now he hasn't given us much to rave about. Funny but I personally dont think very highly of Carter or Getzlaf, not saying they won't be good but just never cared for them. Bernier is off to a great start in his rookie year with the Barons, should be interesting to see how he does. But I also think it's a waste of time to see who we "should" or "could" have picked since it's neither here nor there. I also don't think too much should be put into where a player is drafted. The fact is most guys don't make it and your bound to screw up some 1st rounders. I actually agree, Kostitsyn isn't playing that well and it's a concern. Chipchura isn't lighting the league on fire and Carey Price has the worst gaa in the league, has been pulled from at least one game and is on pace to let in over 200 goals, more then the last 2 seasons combined. Last year people were freaking out when Higgins couldn't buy a goal, yet he went on to be Hamiltons' MVP as voted by the players, 2nd on the team in goals behind Pleks. Who knows what will happen with Kostitsyn, the Habs took a gamble and when you roll the dice, you take a big chance that the kid will be able to live up to the hype. When you go back and look at history of the draft (excluding say the last 4 or so drafts) it's funny how they end up. Guys who were so hyped can either be outstanding or never end up to a pile of dung. |
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Oct 26, 2005 23:20:39 GMT -5
Crunch beat the Dogs 3-2 tonight showing the Conklin's "conditioning stint" should not be in the AHL...3 goals on his first 10 shots, welcome home Ty.
Apparently Kosty started wearing a "mask" according to posters on the Dogs fan board, and he really cranked his game up a huge notch. Coach Lever, weld that mask, whatever it is, to his melon and let this kid show off that incredible raw talent each night. I have seen it in spurts live and on TV, and would love to see it in the bleu blanc et rouge for years to come.
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Oct 27, 2005 5:08:21 GMT -5
Apparently Kosty started wearing a "mask" according to posters on the Dogs fan board, and he really cranked his game up a huge notch. Coach Lever, weld that mask, whatever it is, to his melon and let this kid show off that incredible raw talent each night. I have seen it in spurts live and on TV, and would love to see it in the bleu blanc et rouge for years to come. Trick or treat comes early for Kostitsyn the Elder. |
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Post by Gogie on Oct 27, 2005 9:39:05 GMT -5
Crunch beat the Dogs 3-2 tonight showing the Conklin's "conditioning stint" should not be in the AHL...3 goals on his first 10 shots, welcome home Ty. Apparently Kosty started wearing a "mask" according to posters on the Dogs fan board, and he really cranked his game up a huge notch. Coach Lever, weld that mask, whatever it is, to his melon and let this kid show off that incredible raw talent each night. I have seen it in spurts live and on TV, and would love to see it in the bleu blanc et rouge for years to come. AK took a puck in the mouth and was actually knocked out cold for a minute in the first period. He missed the last half of the period and then came back in the second sporting a full face shield. When he first went down it looked like a Ribeiro move. He fell on his butt, hesitated for a second, and then went down on his back with his arms flopped straight out. The way he fell back looked unnatural (almost like it was an act) but when the trainer had to use smelling salts to wake him up it was obvious he had been knocked out. Apparently he lost a tooth - later in the period one of the linesman picked it up and took it over to the Bulldogs' trainer. About the game, the Dogs played very well and dominated offensively for several stretches. Unfortunately Conklin stunk in the first period, letting in three soft goals. Meanwhile, the Dogs couldn't find the back of the net. Could be a long season if a few guys don't improve significantly in the next month or so. |
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Oct 27, 2005 10:29:52 GMT -5
Marcel Hossa made a great impression in every camps. He had a strong rookie year and he followed with a very good one the year after. As a 20 year old, Hossa's good play earned him a 10 games tryout, then 34 the season after. Good prospects rarely (I was tempted to use "never" but then there is Micheal Ryder) take 2-3 seasons to establish themselves in devellopment league... Kostsisyn turns 21 this year and has shown zero so far. It's easy to blame the team, the surroundings and what have you, but other went through what he went through and showed a lot more. As displayed in this year's training camp, the guy is nowhere near the player Timmins advertised on the draft day. I'm not saying he's a sure bust but in my book he's now a big maybe.... First of all you are comparing apples and oranges.... Hossa played for years in North America before turning pro. Secondly, Kostitsyn hasn't taken 2-3 years. In reality, he still has less than one full year of AHL experience. Finally you cannot say that others have gone through what he has gone through. We have no idea of the struggles he faced, the support he had from home and other factors that he would have to cope with. No two players in the league face identical challenges... so I have to dismiss that comment. If he had been a North American player, Kosty would have been an AHL rookie this year and just trying to break into the Hamilton lineup. Old farts like me can remember the Hab's had the #1 draft pick and had to choose between Marcel Dionne who put up great numbers in the OHL and Guy lafleur who put up numbers in the then believed to be inferior QMJHL. We chose Lafleur who sat on the Hab's bench while Dionne played and scored immediately. Give the kid some time, but light a fire under his ass. |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Oct 27, 2005 12:18:51 GMT -5
From a poster on the Dogs site:
he seemed to play better when he realized his brother Sergei (a Montreal prospect) and a bunch of the London Knights were sitting in 114....
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Oct 28, 2005 20:52:31 GMT -5
Our bust has two goals and one helper so far in a crazy game in Syracuse tonight.
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Post by seventeen on Oct 28, 2005 22:28:41 GMT -5
Someone should have bopped him in the head a while ago. Seems to have woken him up. Am very glad to hear he's picking it up as I really like the kid. PS. That's how he ended up in a 7-6 Dogs win. Got the comeback going with the first of 3 straight Hamilton goals in the 3rd when down 6-4. Hainsey got 4 assists and seems to be picking up a lot of points this year. ahl.leaguestat.com/stats/game-summary.php?game_id=1001127 |
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Post by montreal on Oct 29, 2005 0:55:18 GMT -5
I watched the game and he had some flashy moves. His first goal was setup by hard work from Lapierre who kept it in and skated down low, firing a hard pass right to Kostitsyn who blasted a one timer. even the camera guy couldn't keep up with the pass.  That was one crazy game, I couldn't keep track of how many lead changes there were, so many power plays. |
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Post by seventeen on Oct 29, 2005 1:23:51 GMT -5
Was he using other players, Dan? And how was his 2nd goal? Do you think there was tangible improvement and he can keep it up?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2005 9:59:58 GMT -5
Should we just dump him and keep an eye on Sergei?
Hopefully Andrei will look at how his brother is doing in junior and light a fire under his rear.
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Post by montreal on Oct 29, 2005 13:06:42 GMT -5
Was he using other players, Dan? And how was his 2nd goal? Do you think there was tangible improvement and he can keep it up? At times he would still try and do it all on his own (and almost had a beauty of a goal if it had worked) but other times on the PP he was making some nice passes. His 2nd goal was a nice shot from in close if I recall. There was improvement, it was the best game I've seen from him so far (out of 4 games) but can he keep it up I have no idea. My biggest concern is that he doesn't try hard enough at times and maybe has questionable hockey smarts. There's things about him that remind me a bit of Hossa, since they both can show flashes of great skills but other times don't really seem all that interested in playing hard. I'm not comparing them by any means cause to me Hossa never really showed he wanted the puck and Kostitsyn shows at times he doesn't want to give it up. I assume it comes from playing in the EEHL/RSL-2 where he was the man and could lit up goalies and make defensemen look silly with his flashy moves. Now those moves rarely work and he's got to learn more of a team game. The learning curve seems to be a bit longer with him but when you consider that this should be his rookie year and not his 2nd year, hopefully over time he picks it up. I'd actually rather have Jarvis in Hamilton since he teaches a system game more, but in the "new" AHL it appears it will be more open and coach Lever wants to open up the offense, which is great for fans and people that follow prospects by stats but who knows how much it will help Kostitsyn become a more rounded hockey player. I know people want to see him score goals and make flashy plays, and I have full confidence he will do that this year, but what good is it when he makes it to the NHL and can't fit into Julien's system? Not saying this will happen cause i don't know, but it will be very interesting to see how it all pans out. To me he's always been easily one of the most skilled prospects I have ever seen in the Habs system and as much as I like Perezhogin, I felt that Kostitsyn might have more offensive skills but never worked as hard as Alex and NEVER came close to having the all round game of Alex. If Kostitsyn can put it all together (repeated for Hossa and Hainsey year after year) then the Habs future is that much brighter, considering you got Perezhogin, Higgins and Pleks just getting their feet wet. It's still very very early in a long season, so we'll see what happens. I expect him to put up a good amount of points and be one of the team leaders in goals but hopefully by the end of the season we'll see more improvement in his overall game and see what kind of progression he's made in other areas, as it likely will take a while for him to keep improving/rounding out his game. Perhaps he will never get it, or perhaps he picks it up faster then expected and ends up seeing a few games with the Habs this year, should be fun to see what happens. |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Nov 21, 2005 22:43:45 GMT -5
...8 pts in 18 games and -6 WTF...  |
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