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Post by folatre on Aug 2, 2018 17:57:17 GMT -5
Carolina receives Cliff Pu, a 2019 2nd rounder, and 3rd and 6th rounders in 2020.
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Post by jkr on Aug 2, 2018 17:58:04 GMT -5
I will delete my thread on this.
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Post by blny on Aug 2, 2018 19:22:10 GMT -5
Seems a little underwhelming. Pu is a third round pick, who's put up good numbers the last 2 years of jr. He's a pro now though. No first round pick in the deal.
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Post by folatre on Aug 2, 2018 19:33:02 GMT -5
This is a curious trade on various levels. It is strange for a team that few people see as ready to make the playoffs actually want to bother with a one year rental. And Buffalo famously has trouble selling guys on the wonders of living in Western New York, so I wonder about how realistic it is to assume they have a good chance of keeping him.
It also feels odd that Dundon, who all spring and summer seemed to be tailoring a message that enough is enough and that the losing needs to stop right now, is trusting Waddell to accept nothing but futures and not exactly sure thing futures for that matter. Waddell traded Hanifin and Lindholm for veteran kind of guys. And I think most people asummed he was trying to move Faulk and Skinner for guys who can push Carolina into the playoff race so that franchise actually sells tickets and Dundon can show everyone how he succeeds at everything he tries. Strictly in terms of the pieces moving, Skinner is a not a multi-dimensional force of a hockey player but he is a legit goal scorer (.352 goals per game for his career) and the return for him is pretty modest as blny said. I have a university mate who is a lifelong Sabres fan and he told me that Pu was not a top 5 prospect in the Buffalo organisation, though he was probably in the #6-8 range. He is a big kid who skates well, though his offensive instincts are far from elite. The second round pick is valuable, the third rounder could be nice, and the sixth is like a penny stock. I guess a couple things surprise me. While I am not saying Skinner is likely to re-sign in Buffalo, why didn’t Waddell dig in and say there has to a conditionality clause in this deal whereby Carolina gets the St. Louis or San Jose first rounder if Skinner re-ups? The other thing that surprises me is teams who need a top 6 left wing like Pittsburgh, Chicago, or Anaheim could not beat Buffalo’s offer. The only thing that I can think of is that Waddell was operating under strict orders (because Carolina is truly revenue challenged) that retaining salary was unacceptable and for some clubs there is not comfortable cap room to add $5.725 million.
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Post by seventeen on Aug 2, 2018 19:38:49 GMT -5
Grasshoppers, listen to Papa 17 and temper your expectations for Pacioretty. Max is better than Skinner but almost 4 years older. At this point I’d keep him and try to resign him to 7mm over 5 years. And give his agent permission to talk to other teams about what they’d offer.
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Post by blny on Aug 2, 2018 19:43:29 GMT -5
Hearing that the return was what it was because Skinner was unwilling to sign extension. Clearly, he'd told Carolina he wasn't signing there either. Might a good year in Buffalo get him to sign? Maybe.
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Post by folatre on Aug 2, 2018 20:08:55 GMT -5
I would certainly be okay with 5 x 7, but I think that Pacioretty and his new agent would turn it down.
I also agree with the premise that Bergevin cannot at this juncture be waiting for a good mid-20s forward who can chip in 20 goals now, a top prospect and a first rounder. That is not even remotely realistic and it is not going to happen.
However, since Skinner moved with no conditionality based on re-signing, the issue about the age difference between Pacioretty and Skinner should not influence anything this summer. Skinner may well (and probably should) receive more term than Pacioretty next summer when he is a UFA, but right now as comparable one year rentals, Bergevin should not get less than this and in reality he should get a little more.
Pacioretty is a slightly more productive sniper than Skinner (.355 gpg vs. .352), he is better defensively, and he is a pretty decent penalty killer. Therefore, my operational assumption is that Montreal should be able to extract a prospect in the #4-6 range from a club with a normal prospect pool and a conditional first round pick (a second and a fourth if Pacioretty walks away next summer). It also bears keeping in mind the ability to retain 50 percent of Pacioretty's salary helps further justify this differential in the rental return between Pacioretty and Skinner.
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Post by seventeen on Aug 3, 2018 0:26:21 GMT -5
If memory serves me (a faulty condition on my part), the only guy who has come out ahead by holding onto his asset without trading it quickly is Joe Sakic. The Duchene deal was a screaming success for Colorado. When one analyzes that, because it goes contrary to what one expects...one realizes that Sakic was dealing with a Class A dummy in Dorion. A guy who was desperate to acquire Duchene as if no one else would do. Dorion priced Duchene to a level that a normal GM simply would not. The point is that Duchene was an outlier....a special case which is highly unlikely to repeat itself. Can you think of a a team or GM who would want Pacioretty so badly they'd give up what Ottawa did... a comparable centre (Turris, a prospect picked in the late 1st round (Shane Bowers), a first round pick that is likely to be top 5 in a deep draft with a franchise centre as the headliner and a throwaway 3rd rounder. That's two first rounders AND an almost comparable centre. Incredible. The Skinner deal is a reality check. Sure, Skinner's NMC may have reduced his value, but he waived it to go to Buffalo! Has that sunk in yet? Does that not make everyone consider that Buffalo just might make the playoffs next year? Lehner was a disaster for them and if Hutton is just average, that's an improvement and we know what decent goaltending can do to a team's attitude (or what crappy goaltending can do to it). Dahlin, Ristolainen, Bogosian and Scandella are a decent top 4 on D. Eichel is a star in the making, MIttelstadt a good prospect, and Tage Thompson, Berglund and Sobotka, solid filler pieces. Add in Reinhart, Okposo and Pominville and you have a solid team, certainly one I'd prefer to the Habs line-up for next season. Brendan Guhle and Alex Nylander are decent prospects who could make the jump and conribute. It's not really a surprise that Skinner agreed to be traded there.
Skinner - Eichel - Reinhart Pominville - Mittelstadt - Okposo Thompson - Sobotka - Berglund Energy line (who cares).
That's a group that can score. Especially if Dahlin and Ristolainen can run that PP.
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Aug 3, 2018 5:56:42 GMT -5
It is a good deal for Buffalo who didn't give up any prime prospects in the deal. They get Skinner for a full season to see if he is a fit or convince him to sign an extension. If none of that works out they can flip him at the trade deadline to a contender looking for scoring for the playoffs and probably get back a 1st round pick in a deep draft pool next year.
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Post by blny on Aug 3, 2018 6:01:42 GMT -5
Grasshoppers, listen to Papa 17 and temper your expectations for Pacioretty. Max is better than Skinner but almost 4 years older. At this point I’d keep him and try to resign him to 7mm over 5 years. And give his agent permission to talk to other teams about what they’d offer. In addition to my earlier response, Pacioretty should fetch more than Skinner because he's a better player than Skinner. Irregardless of the age gap, there's a significant gap in on-ice ability. Skinner wouldn't know where his end of the ice is if you gave him a map. Max may have periods of listlessness, but as far as premier goal scorers go he's a defensive stalwart. Of all the goal scorers at his level, or better - which there are very few - none can boast being better, or as good, defensively.
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Post by folatre on Aug 3, 2018 20:03:18 GMT -5
Good point, blny. Mark Stone is an outstanding defensive forward and just as bad luck would have it he seems almost guaranteed to be on the trading block.
In my opinion, assuming Molson is not going to become involved in the Pacioretty situation, then Bergevin may as well trade him sooner than later. I anticipate that guys like Stone and Panarin will move near the deadline.
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Post by blny on Aug 4, 2018 15:45:57 GMT -5
Good point, blny. Mark Stone is an outstanding defensive forward and just as bad luck would have it he seems almost guaranteed to be on the trading block. In my opinion, assuming Molson is not going to become involved in the Pacioretty situation, then Bergevin may as well trade him sooner than later. I anticipate that guys like Stone and Panarin will move near the deadline. Death knell for Stone in Ottawa is the one year deal. He's as good as gone. He's an excellent two-way player that makes up for a lack of foot speed with an incredibly good stick. He typically leads the league in steals, swatting passes out of the air. He'd be a great winger to add to a line with center who's a sniper.
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Post by franko on Aug 4, 2018 15:57:00 GMT -5
Good point, blny. Mark Stone is an outstanding defensive forward and just as bad luck would have it he seems almost guaranteed to be on the trading block. In my opinion, assuming Molson is not going to become involved in the Pacioretty situation, then Bergevin may as well trade him sooner than later. I anticipate that guys like Stone and Panarin will move near the deadline. Death knell for Stone in Ottawa is the one year deal. He's as good as gone. He's an excellent two-way player that makes up for a lack of foot speed with an incredibly good stick. He typically leads the league in steals, swatting passes out of the air. He'd be a great winger to add to a line with center who's a sniper. If he can stay healthy. Those microfracture can put a player out for . . . minutes!
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Post by Willie Dog on Aug 4, 2018 16:07:27 GMT -5
Death knell for Stone in Ottawa is the one year deal. He's as good as gone. He's an excellent two-way player that makes up for a lack of foot speed with an incredibly good stick. He typically leads the league in steals, swatting passes out of the air. He'd be a great winger to add to a line with center who's a sniper. If he can stay healthy. Those microfracture can put a player out for . . . minutes! Man did Sens fans hate PK after that (they didn't love him before that though) I would tell them Microfracture is a made up word to make Sens fans feel better.
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