Subban

[Polarice]

Jun 9, 2019 17:37:36 GMT -5 Disgruntled70sHab said:

Not sure I'd entertain bringing PK Subban back into MTL ... I still like the player and I still like the humanitarian, but the team is nurturing an entirely new dynamic with an entirely different core ... my question is, how would bringing Subban back affect that dynamic ... would he fit right in, or (feeling he has to earn his $9 mil/season) would he revert back to his superstar-in-rent-a-car days ... Subban for Mitch Marner? ... well, both teams would get what they're looking for ... TOR would get a hometown boy with an excellent transition game who also has a great first pass and a bullet from the point ... NAS would get one of the league's younger more dynamic offensive talents in Marner ... there'd probably be more to the deal, but don't like the idea of Subban in TOR, actually ...

Cheers.

I think the dressing room issues went out the door with Patches....I would have to think Subban would fit in perfectly with the likes of Domi, Tatar, etc.

[seventeen]

I think the dressing room issues went out the door with Therrien. making Patches Captain was a mistake but I don't think he was an attitude problem. I've had to deal with people like Therrien before. They're authoritarian, demand control and love manipulating people and personalities iin order to feel that control. It creates chaos, of course, and when people like Subban push back, the knives come out. The only way to deal with them is to eject them. Cave men used to have a great solution...throw them out of the tribe and let the sabre tooth tigers debate with them.

[Boston_Habs]

May 10, 2019 15:30:09 GMT -5 frozone said:

Imo, Subban WAS a Norris level defenseman, but injuries and lack of speed are catching up to him. And although he's a great skater, he's not very fast unless he's got the space to use his cross overs to get going.

Imo, Poile is looking to trade Subban right before the dip, which is great timing if not even a tad late. He did not have a great season and he turns 30 in just a few days... Pains me to say it, but I would not trade for Subban at this stage of his career unless significant salary is held back. Bold prediction: PK will have only two good full seasons left in him before retirement.

That's an interesting take, but he's still on a great contract either for Nashville or someone else. 3 years at $9m per season and the cap will almost certainly go up after the NBC contract expires after the 2020-21 season. Totally reasonable for the player and minimal risk of getting stuck with a guy on the downside. Not like us with Weber.

Nashville got the better player AND the better contract, at least from a cap perspective. Weber is 3 years older and his cap hit runs for another 7 FREAKING YEARS compared to 3 for Subban. I mean, seriously?

[franko]

Jun 10, 2019 14:44:26 GMT -5 Boston_Habs said:

Nashville got the better player AND the better contract, at least from a cap perspective. Weber is 3 years older and his cap hit runs for another 7 FREAKING YEARS compared to 3 for Subban. I mean, seriously?

though PK's hit is going to go up up up

[Boston_Habs]

Jun 10, 2019 14:47:00 GMT -5 franko said:

Jun 10, 2019 14:44:26 GMT -5 Boston_Habs said:

Nashville got the better player AND the better contract, at least from a cap perspective. Weber is 3 years older and his cap hit runs for another 7 FREAKING YEARS compared to 3 for Subban. I mean, seriously?

though PK's hit is going to go up up up

You mean in 3 years? That's another problem down the road, but that's why the Subban contract was a great deal when Bergevin signed it and it's now become a great asset for Nashville. They can either keep PK and try to win with him or trade him knowing that it's a very tradeable contract and should command a solid return. The team getting Subban has a nice 3-year window to win with him and no super long-term commitment. Unlike Weber, who is way harder to move given his age, performance, and sucky contract.

[seventeen]

Interesting that the size of his contract was considered as one reason he was moved. Weber's contract is only better in that the actual money paid to Weber will be $2MM less than PK over the length of each contract. Over the remaining 3 years of PK's contract, Weber gets paid $8M less. I believe that played into Molson's reasoning a lot, in approving the deal. While Mr. Molson says he'll spare nothing in the quest for a cup, he's actually sparing quite a bit. Always follow the money because promises are often broken.

[blny]

Jun 10, 2019 14:51:48 GMT -5 Boston_Habs said:

Jun 10, 2019 14:47:00 GMT -5 franko said:

though PK's hit is going to go up up up

You mean in 3 years? That's another problem down the road, but that's why the Subban contract was a great deal when Bergevin signed it and it's now become a great asset for Nashville. They can either keep PK and try to win with him or trade him knowing that it's a very tradeable contract and should command a solid return. The team getting Subban has a nice 3-year window to win with him and no super long-term commitment. Unlike Weber, who is way harder to move given his age, performance, and sucky contract.

The Weber contract is only a problem for Nashville. Period. Shea won't retire before 2022. Recapture penalties for Montreal, or the team with him, between now and 2023 are nominal. It's after July 2023 that the problems kick in, and they're all on Nashville - even if he isn't a Pred.

www.prohockeyrumors.com/2018/07/the-salary-cap-implications-of-a-shea-weber-early-retirement.html

[folatre]

Right, blny. But a corollary to the story is that a $7.86 million annual cap hit is tough for a contending club (that is what Montreal aspires toward, I hope) if Weber is playing like a 4-5 d-man when he is 37 years old and still has another three or four years on his deal. People always say well it does not matter since Weber has no movement protection so the Habs can trade him whenever they want and also he probably would not bother playing the last two or three years for $1 million per.

That may be true, time will say. But it may be a classic 'rosy scenario' in forecasting that ultimately proves naive and faulty. The first impediment to saying Montreal will cut ties whenever it is in the Canadien interest to do so removes the human element from decision making. Trading for Weber is Bergevin's signature trade and he made Weber captain. Unless Bergevin is relieved of his duties, Weber is not being traded and will definitely be protected in the expansion draft when logic would say why protect a 36 year old with that cap hit. And the notion that Weber is likely to retire after let's say another four seasons is far from guaranteed. If he is just slow but not suffering major health problems and pain, the man is probably going to keep playing because he loves hockey and wants to win a Stanley Cup.

[blny]

Jun 10, 2019 17:20:17 GMT -5 folatre said:

Right, blny. But a corollary to the story is that a $7.86 million annual cap hit is tough for a contending club (that is what Montreal aspires toward, I hope) if Weber is playing like a 4-5 d-man when he is 37 years old and still has another three or four years on his deal. People always say well it does not matter since Weber has no movement protection so the Habs can trade him whenever they want and also he probably would not bother playing the last two or three years for $1 million per.

That may be true, time will say. But it may be a classic 'rosy scenario' in forecasting that ultimately proves naive and faulty. The first impediment to saying Montreal will cut ties whenever it is in the Canadien interest to do so removes the human element from decision making. Trading for Weber is Bergevin's signature trade and he made Weber captain. Unless Bergevin is relieved of his duties, Weber is not being traded and will definitely be protected in the expansion draft when logic would say why protect a 36 year old with that cap hit. And the notion that Weber is likely to retire after let's say another four seasons is far from guaranteed. If he is just slow but not suffering major health problems and pain, the man is probably going to keep playing because he loves hockey and wants to win a Stanley Cup.

I just don't see it. If you can't find someone to take the bulk of the deal, just LTIR him. That said, the cap is only going up. His $7.86 million hit will be tantamount to $5 million in 4 years.

[folatre]

With only three years on his deal, I do not think it would be hard to move Subban for good return. But the clubs that make the most sense are ambitious ones who see a window to make noise in the spring. There are not many d-men who with a huge sample size of post-season games (I think Subban has played 100) who manages to reach and even slightly eclipse his career regular season average in points per game. Subban is a todo terreno who delivers when the stakes matter so if a GM is hungry to build his team for post-season relevance trading for Subban is a good play.

If indeed Nashville wants to move Subban's contract, the problem for Poile is that clubs gearing up for a run are less likely to want to give him quality ready to play in the NHL assets. For example, I believe Chuck Fletcher took the job in Philly with a clear message from ownership that the Flyers have to make the playoffs and the time to win big is now. It would not surprise me if Fletcher picks up the phone and offers Poile the Flyer's first rounder, Rubstov, and a third. That is not an insult of an offer but it just does not make the Predators better. It would make them weaker in 2019-20 in a division that top to bottom is rugged. People may say well then Poile signs Duchene with the Subban money. True, impact player for impact player. But contenders going all in need to add without subtracting.

[NWTHabsFan]

Jun 10, 2019 18:00:04 GMT -5 folatre said:

With only three years on his deal, I do not think it would be hard to move Subban for good return. But the clubs that make the most sense are ambitious ones who see a window to make noise in the spring. There are not many d-men who with a huge sample size of post-season games (I think Subban has played 100) who manages to reach and even slightly eclipse his career regular season average in points per game. Subban is a todo terreno who delivers when the stakes matter so if a GM is hungry to build his team for post-season relevance trading for Subban is a good play.

If indeed Nashville wants to move Subban's contract, the problem for Poile is that clubs gearing up for a run are less likely to want to give him quality ready to play in the NHL assets. For example, I believe Chuck Fletcher took the job in Philly with a clear message from ownership that the Flyers have to make the playoffs and the time to win big is now. It would not surprise me if Fletcher picks up the phone and offers Poile the Flyer's first rounder, Rubstov, and a third. That is not an insult of an offer but it just does not make the Predators better. It would make them weaker in 2019-20 in a division that top to bottom is rugged. People may say well then Poile signs Duchene with the Subban money. True, impact player for impact player. But contenders going all in need to add without subtracting.

Good observations. We can all relate to this closer to home. I think this definitely applies to the Habs. Berg has made some big splashes with his summer trades (Subban-Weber / Drouin-Sergachev / Domi-Galchenyuk). At best, these moves might be a slight improvement or at least a move that brings in a player more in synch with the team identity he is trying to achieve. The point is that this style of trade is much more lateral than incremental.

Poile has been aggressive in "going for it". But, they are in a very competitive division along with Winnipeg and the Blues. If you weaken your lineup too much, you have to then win two tough series just to advance out of the division (assuming they end up third as those three teams all finished with only one point separating the three teams - and you have Dallas and Colorado chomping to improve not far behind as well). He needs a good return for Subban, even it is a younger prospect/roster player that is highly regarded as part of the deal.

[seventeen]

Jun 10, 2019 17:20:17 GMT -5 folatre said:

Right, blny. But a corollary to the story is that a $7.86 million annual cap hit is tough for a contending club (that is what Montreal aspires toward, I hope) if Weber is playing like a 4-5 d-man when he is 37 years old and still has another three or four years on his deal. People always say well it does not matter since Weber has no movement protection so the Habs can trade him whenever they want and also he probably would not bother playing the last two or three years for $1 million per.

That may be true, time will say. But it may be a classic 'rosy scenario' in forecasting that ultimately proves naive and faulty. The first impediment to saying Montreal will cut ties whenever it is in the Canadien interest to do so removes the human element from decision making. Trading for Weber is Bergevin's signature trade and he made Weber captain. Unless Bergevin is relieved of his duties, Weber is not being traded and will definitely be protected in the expansion draft when logic would say why protect a 36 year old with that cap hit. And the notion that Weber is likely to retire after let's say another four seasons is far from guaranteed. If he is just slow but not suffering major health problems and pain, the man is probably going to keep playing because he loves hockey and wants to win a Stanley Cup.

Well phrased. I brought this up just after the trade was made as a point to consider because of the age difference. Most people thought the contract was not an issue mostly because the risk of retirement all fell on Nashville. There was more to it than retirement risk, of course.

One example to consider is Zdeno Chara, who is now showing his age. Sure he's a lot older than Weber, but he's also a freak of nature. Weber's injury history lately is also concerning, but understandable because of his style and now because of his age. The two are comparable in several ways.

The biggest risk has always been that Weber will regress to a 2nd or 3rd pairing defenseman who has the CAP hit of a first pairing guy. Chara and McAvoy appear to be Boston's top pairing and Chara has a $2MM CAP hit. If you consider that Weber and Chara are equal (and based on the last weeks of the season that would appear to be true), then Montreal is paying nearly $6mm more for the same effectiveness. Sure Weber scores more, but Chara allows Boston to be extra aggressive, something Weber doesn't have. That's a lot of CAP utilized inefficiently. I'd rather have Subban at $9MM for the next 3 years than Weber at $7.8MM. If Weber is truly playing at the level he finished at in 2018/19, he is effectively our second best RHD. No matter how much ice time CJ plays him, Petry is more effective.

I also highly doubt that Weber will retire anytime soon. Even as a 2nd or 3rd pairing guy, he can still play in the NHL. What keeps guys going is not the money, but the love of the game, the enjoyment of being part of a team and simply competing. He'll play even if he's only earning $1mm a year. He's made his money.

[Willie Dog]

Jun 10, 2019 17:20:17 GMT -5 folatre said:

Right, blny. But a corollary to the story is that a $7.86 million annual cap hit is tough for a contending club (that is what Montreal aspires toward, I hope) if Weber is playing like a 4-5 d-man when he is 37 years old and still has another three or four years on his deal. People always say well it does not matter since Weber has no movement protection so the Habs can trade him whenever they want and also he probably would not bother playing the last two or three years for $1 million per.

That may be true, time will say. But it may be a classic 'rosy scenario' in forecasting that ultimately proves naive and faulty. The first impediment to saying Montreal will cut ties whenever it is in the Canadien interest to do so removes the human element from decision making. Trading for Weber is Bergevin's signature trade and he made Weber captain. Unless Bergevin is relieved of his duties, Weber is not being traded and will definitely be protected in the expansion draft when logic would say why protect a 36 year old with that cap hit. And the notion that Weber is likely to retire after let's say another four seasons is far from guaranteed. If he is just slow but not suffering major health problems and pain, the man is probably going to keep playing because he loves hockey and wants to win a Stanley Cup.

I think if Weber was left unprotected he wouldn't be taken... Vegas changed things... they took speed and skill, took on cap hit for quality... I cant see Seattle going back to the old way of expansion drafting... they will follow the Vegas model.

[blny]

Jun 11, 2019 20:51:56 GMT -5 Willie Dog said:

Jun 10, 2019 17:20:17 GMT -5 folatre said:

Right, blny. But a corollary to the story is that a $7.86 million annual cap hit is tough for a contending club (that is what Montreal aspires toward, I hope) if Weber is playing like a 4-5 d-man when he is 37 years old and still has another three or four years on his deal. People always say well it does not matter since Weber has no movement protection so the Habs can trade him whenever they want and also he probably would not bother playing the last two or three years for $1 million per.

That may be true, time will say. But it may be a classic 'rosy scenario' in forecasting that ultimately proves naive and faulty. The first impediment to saying Montreal will cut ties whenever it is in the Canadien interest to do so removes the human element from decision making. Trading for Weber is Bergevin's signature trade and he made Weber captain. Unless Bergevin is relieved of his duties, Weber is not being traded and will definitely be protected in the expansion draft when logic would say why protect a 36 year old with that cap hit. And the notion that Weber is likely to retire after let's say another four seasons is far from guaranteed. If he is just slow but not suffering major health problems and pain, the man is probably going to keep playing because he loves hockey and wants to win a Stanley Cup.

I think if Weber was left unprotected he wouldn't be taken... Vegas changed things... they took speed and skill, took on cap hit for quality... I cant see Seattle going back to the old way of expansion drafting... they will follow the Vegas model.

PK might get selected, were he left exposed. It wouldn't be for speed though. It would be for marketing and merch sales. PK might be faster than Shea, but he's not fast like modern D need to be. He can still make space with his edge work, but he doesn't win many foot races anymore.

[The Habitual Fan]

Jun 11, 2019 12:39:58 GMT -5 seventeen said:

Jun 10, 2019 17:20:17 GMT -5 folatre said:

Right, blny. But a corollary to the story is that a $7.86 million annual cap hit is tough for a contending club (that is what Montreal aspires toward, I hope) if Weber is playing like a 4-5 d-man when he is 37 years old and still has another three or four years on his deal. People always say well it does not matter since Weber has no movement protection so the Habs can trade him whenever they want and also he probably would not bother playing the last two or three years for $1 million per.

That may be true, time will say. But it may be a classic 'rosy scenario' in forecasting that ultimately proves naive and faulty. The first impediment to saying Montreal will cut ties whenever it is in the Canadien interest to do so removes the human element from decision making. Trading for Weber is Bergevin's signature trade and he made Weber captain. Unless Bergevin is relieved of his duties, Weber is not being traded and will definitely be protected in the expansion draft when logic would say why protect a 36 year old with that cap hit. And the notion that Weber is likely to retire after let's say another four seasons is far from guaranteed. If he is just slow but not suffering major health problems and pain, the man is probably going to keep playing because he loves hockey and wants to win a Stanley Cup.

Well phrased. I brought this up just after the trade was made as a point to consider because of the age difference. Most people thought the contract was not an issue mostly because the risk of retirement all fell on Nashville. There was more to it than retirement risk, of course.

One example to consider is Zdeno Chara, who is now showing his age. Sure he's a lot older than Weber, but he's also a freak of nature. Weber's injury history lately is also concerning, but understandable because of his style and now because of his age. The two are comparable in several ways.

The biggest risk has always been that Weber will regress to a 2nd or 3rd pairing defenseman who has the CAP hit of a first pairing guy. Chara and McAvoy appear to be Boston's top pairing and Chara has a $2MM CAP hit. If you consider that Weber and Chara are equal (and based on the last weeks of the season that would appear to be true), then Montreal is paying nearly $6mm more for the same effectiveness. Sure Weber scores more, but Chara allows Boston to be extra aggressive, something Weber doesn't have. That's a lot of CAP utilized inefficiently. I'd rather have Subban at $9MM for the next 3 years than Weber at $7.8MM. If Weber is truly playing at the level he finished at in 2018/19, he is effectively our second best RHD. No matter how much ice time CJ plays him, Petry is more effective.

I also highly doubt that Weber will retire anytime soon. Even as a 2nd or 3rd pairing guy, he can still play in the NHL. What keeps guys going is not the money, but the love of the game, the enjoyment of being part of a team and simply competing. He'll play even if he's only earning $1mm a year. He's made his money.

I don't disagree with your points however if the cap contuse to rise Weber's cap hit becomes less of an issue. I think of Weber's game not based on speed but smart and positioning and hopefully will age more along the lines of Markov and Chelios who as they got closer to 40 were still reliable defenseman because of how they played. No one expects Weber to be a 1-2 guy at the age of 40 and if Montreal can develop players like Romanov, Brook, Juulssen and Mete then he shouldn't be. If Montreal is not a contender in 4-5 years and Weber wants to win a cup then he would likely welcome a trade. I realize that he has no trade protection now and it wasn't his choice to come here but with what his actual payout in salary will be, the fact Montreal could retain part of his cap hit if needed and the qualities he brings to the dressing room I don't ever see moving him or Weber becoming a burden for the team a concern.

[folatre]

I have a random thought related to a potential connection between Nashville and Montreal, though not at all related to Subban to the Habs.

Most hockey men think that it is reasonable to assume that Nashville and Montreal (and surely many other clubs) are interested in Duchene. I would love to know how Poile rates him specifically. I don't mean does Poile prefer Duchene over Turris or Bonino because obviously he does. What I wonder is does he feel strongly enough about Duchene to make him the team's highest paid player? Poile gave up Seth Jones (for me easily top 5 d-man in the league now) to acquire Ryan Johansen and thus for many GMs that move would mean that Johansen is the 1C going forward end of story and other guys need to slot in behind him or at least not eclipse his 8 million AAV.

For me if Poile is willing to bruise Johansen's ego and give Duchene more money, then it would be hard for Bergevin to compete in after-tax dollars even with Molson going all in to help Brisson-Duchene take advantage of the oddities of the tax code. However, if Poile draws the line at 8 million per, then Bergevin may find a way.

[blny]

Jun 12, 2019 8:52:43 GMT -5 folatre said:

I have a random thought related to a potential connection between Nashville and Montreal, though not at all related to Subban to the Habs.

Most hockey men think that it is reasonable to assume that Nashville and Montreal (and surely many other clubs) are interested in Duchene. I would love to know how Poile rates him specifically. I don't mean does Poile prefer Duchene over Turris or Bonino because obviously he does. What I wonder is does he feel strongly enough about Duchene to make him the team's highest paid player? Poile gave up Seth Jones (for me easily top 5 d-man in the league now) to acquire Ryan Johansen and thus for many GMs that move would mean that Johansen is the 1C going forward end of story and other guys need to slot in behind him or at least not eclipse his 8 million AAV.

For me if Poile is willing to bruise Johansen's ego and give Duchene more money, then it would be hard for Bergevin to compete in after-tax dollars even with Molson going all in to help Brisson-Duchene take advantage of the oddities of the tax code. However, if Poile draws the line at 8 million per, then Bergevin may find a way.

That trade at the time looked like a win-win, with both teams getting players at positions they needed filled. Jones has exceeded RyJo since the trade imo. RyJo has had some decent seasons, but his goal-scoring is way down from the two strong seasons he had in CBJ before the trade.

[Willie Dog]

Jun 12, 2019 13:01:59 GMT -5 blny said:

Jun 12, 2019 8:52:43 GMT -5 folatre said:

I have a random thought related to a potential connection between Nashville and Montreal, though not at all related to Subban to the Habs.

Most hockey men think that it is reasonable to assume that Nashville and Montreal (and surely many other clubs) are interested in Duchene. I would love to know how Poile rates him specifically. I don't mean does Poile prefer Duchene over Turris or Bonino because obviously he does. What I wonder is does he feel strongly enough about Duchene to make him the team's highest paid player? Poile gave up Seth Jones (for me easily top 5 d-man in the league now) to acquire Ryan Johansen and thus for many GMs that move would mean that Johansen is the 1C going forward end of story and other guys need to slot in behind him or at least not eclipse his 8 million AAV.

For me if Poile is willing to bruise Johansen's ego and give Duchene more money, then it would be hard for Bergevin to compete in after-tax dollars even with Molson going all in to help Brisson-Duchene take advantage of the oddities of the tax code. However, if Poile draws the line at 8 million per, then Bergevin may find a way.

That trade at the time looked like a win-win, with both teams getting players at positions they needed filled. Jones has exceeded RyJo since the trade imo. RyJo has had some decent seasons, but his goal-scoring is way down from the two strong seasons he had in CBJ before the trade.

The interesting thing is if Poile doesn't deal Jones and he becomes the stud D man he is, it makes Weber expendable and Poile could have traded him to the Oilers for a top forward not named McDavid... Can you picture Taylor Hall on the Preds? We know Chiarelli would have done that deal in a heartbeat.

[seventeen]

Except part of he reasoning for giving up Hall for (LOL) Larsson, was that Larsson's cap hit was just $4.16MM nd he was signed for 4 years, so there was some very expensive certainty. Weber would have been a much higher CAP hit for a much longer time and I don't think Edmonton had the space for it. Otherwise, yeah, Chiarelli does a happy dance and signs on the dotted line.

I believe there had been some discussions at the time between Bergevin and Edmonton about Subban and the Oiler's 4th overall pick, but PK's CAP hit got in the way again. It wouldn't have worked anyway because Habs wanted Dubois and once he was gone at #3, the deal would have fallen apart. But Chiarelli would have been much smarter to move Hall for Subban if he could have solved the CAP issues. If he keeps Eberle and doesn't sign Lucic, that team looks a lot different. A defense of Subban, Nurse, Klefbom and Sekera isn't a bad start. PK's long bombs would make McDavid a crazy threat.

[seventeen]

Jun 12, 2019 8:02:10 GMT -5 The Habitual Fan said:

Jun 11, 2019 12:39:58 GMT -5 seventeen said:

Well phrased. I brought this up just after the trade was made as a point to consider because of the age difference. Most people thought the contract was not an issue mostly because the risk of retirement all fell on Nashville. There was more to it than retirement risk, of course.

One example to consider is Zdeno Chara, who is now showing his age. Sure he's a lot older than Weber, but he's also a freak of nature. Weber's injury history lately is also concerning, but understandable because of his style and now because of his age. The two are comparable in several ways.

The biggest risk has always been that Weber will regress to a 2nd or 3rd pairing defenseman who has the CAP hit of a first pairing guy. Chara and McAvoy appear to be Boston's top pairing and Chara has a $2MM CAP hit. If you consider that Weber and Chara are equal (and based on the last weeks of the season that would appear to be true), then Montreal is paying nearly $6mm more for the same effectiveness. Sure Weber scores more, but Chara allows Boston to be extra aggressive, something Weber doesn't have. That's a lot of CAP utilized inefficiently. I'd rather have Subban at $9MM for the next 3 years than Weber at $7.8MM. If Weber is truly playing at the level he finished at in 2018/19, he is effectively our second best RHD. No matter how much ice time CJ plays him, Petry is more effective.

I also highly doubt that Weber will retire anytime soon. Even as a 2nd or 3rd pairing guy, he can still play in the NHL. What keeps guys going is not the money, but the love of the game, the enjoyment of being part of a team and simply competing. He'll play even if he's only earning $1mm a year. He's made his money.

I don't disagree with your points however if the cap contuse to rise Weber's cap hit becomes less of an issue. I think of Weber's game not based on speed but smart and positioning and hopefully will age more along the lines of Markov and Chelios who as they got closer to 40 were still reliable defenseman because of how they played. No one expects Weber to be a 1-2 guy at the age of 40 and if Montreal can develop players like Romanov, Brook, Juulssen and Mete then he shouldn't be. If Montreal is not a contender in 4-5 years and Weber wants to win a cup then he would likely welcome a trade. I realize that he has no trade protection now and it wasn't his choice to come here but with what his actual payout in salary will be, the fact Montreal could retain part of his cap hit if needed and the qualities he brings to the dressing room I don't ever see moving him or Weber becoming a burden for the team a concern.

The rising CAP would mitigate the pain to some degree, but the bottom line is that you'd be paying an adequate 4th Defenseman or a good 3rd pairing guy almost $8MM a year, which is wasting about $5-6MM a year in CAP space. That's like another Alzner anchor to bear.

[folatre]

I agree, blny. Jones developed into an elite #1 d-man, whereas Johansen given his age (27 this summer) seems to have plateaued at what seems more accurate to classify as very good.

Another thing for Poile to consider is what Josi's next contract is going to look like. The captain is an elite #1 d-man and he has been significantly underpaid for years so I doubt he plans to leave any money on the table. He will be 30 when he hits UFA status next summer so maybe Nashville holds the line on term (likely no more 6 or 7 years) but I would bet he easily gets 9.5 million per, which means that even if Poile moves Subban now he needs to exercise some caution in this summer's UFA market.

[Boston_Habs]

Jun 12, 2019 18:29:17 GMT -5 folatre said:

I agree, blny. Jones developed into an elite #1 d-man, whereas Johansen given his age (27 this summer) seems to have plateaued at what seems more accurate to classify as very good.

That was a good trade for Nashville, even though Johansen hasn't really turned out to be a star. They were in a position to deal from strength and get something they didn't have, which was a prime offensive player.

And they're in a position to do that again this year. The Preds have arguably the best top 4 D in the league with Josi, Subban, Ellis, Ekholm but it hasn't been enough. Which is why PK's name is being thrown around - if they could get a top line forward in return for one of their D then that would solve Nashville's scoring problems. They'd probably want to lock up Josi in the process since he'll be UFA and they can't afford to lose him and also trade away one of the other top 4.

That's part of Bergevin's problems. He just doesn't have a whole lot to trade that anyone wants. You could argue we have a bit of a surplus of smallish forwards (Domi, Drouin, Gallagher, Tatar) but none of those guys really command much at this point and we need those guys to be successful. We have Price and Weber but neither is very tradeable either.

I go back to the Drouin-Sergachev trade and how that was such a smart hockey move by Tampa. They didn't need Drouin anymore because they had done such a good job building a great core of young forwards. So they picked up a potential top 4 D without missing a beat on offense. For MTL it was basically a lateral move. Drouin still hasn't found a groove yet and we still have a gaping hole on the left side D. It's like whack-a-mole.

[The Habitual Fan]

Jun 12, 2019 15:34:25 GMT -5 seventeen said:

PK's long bombs would make McDavid a crazy threat.

Provided PK could have learnt how to hit the net by then

[blny]

Jun 12, 2019 14:51:53 GMT -5 Willie Dog said:

Jun 12, 2019 13:01:59 GMT -5 blny said:

That trade at the time looked like a win-win, with both teams getting players at positions they needed filled. Jones has exceeded RyJo since the trade imo. RyJo has had some decent seasons, but his goal-scoring is way down from the two strong seasons he had in CBJ before the trade.

The interesting thing is if Poile doesn't deal Jones and he becomes the stud D man he is, it makes Weber expendable and Poile could have traded him to the Oilers for a top forward not named McDavid... Can you picture Taylor Hall on the Preds? We know Chiarelli would have done that deal in a heartbeat.

Agreed.

[seventeen]

Jun 12, 2019 20:32:44 GMT -5 The Habitual Fan said:

Jun 12, 2019 15:34:25 GMT -5 seventeen said:

PK's long bombs would make McDavid a crazy threat.

Provided PK could have learnt how to hit the net by then

I was referring to passes to McDavid as in a football long bomb. He seems to hit the net often enough and PK is an elite passer.

[blny]

[Willie Dog]

Miss that guy in Le Tricolore

[Cranky]

Obviously PK is working out for his Norris Trophy career......