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Post by clear observer on Jun 25, 2019 14:17:52 GMT -5
Prediction: If healthy, Subban will once again contend for a Norris trophy.
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Post by blny on Jun 25, 2019 15:55:02 GMT -5
Prediction: If healthy, Subban will once again contend for a Norris trophy. Agreed. I think the devils are a much better fit. Even without Hughes, they play a more up tempo game. |
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Jun 26, 2019 6:56:21 GMT -5
At the time of "The Trade" a lot of posters were very quick to condemn MB as a horrible GM and Poile as a genius. Poile has been a GM for 30 years and has never been a cup winner who has now painted himself into a corner where he has to unload because of cap reasons and to keep players under contract. I'm not saying MB is a genius by any stretch but maybe Poile isn't either.
As for PK, well there are 23 players on the team and if he was as highly valued as some would like to think then Poile would have found a way to keep him by trading a different defenseman or dumping a couple of lesser players to make up that $9 million. I suspect that PK was offered to every other team and they all passed except for the Devils who said we will take him for peanuts.
PK is not a horrible defensman but more along average with a flair for the dramatic, or more flash than substance. Certainly if he was a UFA this year I don't see anyone giving him anything close to his current salary.
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Post by jkr on Jun 26, 2019 7:44:28 GMT -5
I really doubt Subban was offered to every other team. That's just not realistic; Poile would target teams with cap space & defensive needs.
As far as Subban being average, I disagree, He had 59 points last year, that's a decent number for a 2nd line center & he was again nominated for the Norris. His detractors can keep saying he is over rated but people who cover the game think otherwise.
The other side of this is Weber. At his age ( soon to be 34) and with his contract what would he fetch if he was offered around the league?
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Post by blny on Jun 26, 2019 9:49:23 GMT -5
At the time of "The Trade" a lot of posters were very quick to condemn MB as a horrible GM and Poile as a genius. Poile has been a GM for 30 years and has never been a cup winner who has now painted himself into a corner where he has to unload because of cap reasons and to keep players under contract. I'm not saying MB is a genius by any stretch but maybe Poile isn't either. As for PK, well there are 23 players on the team and if he was as highly valued as some would like to think then Poile would have found a way to keep him by trading a different defenseman or dumping a couple of lesser players to make up that $9 million. I suspect that PK was offered to every other team and they all passed except for the Devils who said we will take him for peanuts. PK is not a horrible defensman but more along average with a flair for the dramatic, or more flash than substance. Certainly if he was a UFA this year I don't see anyone giving him anything close to his current salary. I don't think it's as black and white (pardon the pun) as you make out. 1. At this point in time, Josi is better. They have Ellis and Ekholm under contract. They have a glaring need to add goals and upgrade at center. 2. They needed to clear the whole contract for the clear push for Duchene. That limits who's going to make and offer and what that offer will be. He's anything but average. PK was a Norris candidate in 17-18. He played through injury much of 18-19. If he's healthy, I like the move to NJD for him. Hughes, Hischier, and Hall represent a quality group of forwards. They also play a style more akin to what suits PK. I think he rebounds to Norris form and likely gets further consideration. |
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Post by seventeen on Jun 26, 2019 11:09:34 GMT -5
As for PK, well there are 23 players on the team and if he was as highly valued as some would like to think then Poile would have found a way to keep him by trading a different defenseman or dumping a couple of lesser players to make up that $9 million. I suspect that PK was offered to every other team and they all passed except for the Devils who said we will take him for peanuts. Funny, I was thinking the same thing applies to Montreal. Their highest paid skater is Weber and if Bergevin was in a cap problem, he'd look at the player that is the most expensive and if he has a possible replacement, even if it isn't as good (Fabbro in Nashville's case and Juulsen and Brook in Montreal's) he'd be wise to trade Weber. Neither Weber nor PK are McDavid or McKinnon or someone who you'd keep no matter what their salary. If Poile could have resolved his team's scoring issues without moving Subban I think he'd do it. It's just not possible for him. I believe comparing the results of the two GM's is apples and oranges. Bergevin has had his job for 7 years, with full resources, unlike what Poile had to deal with for most of his career. I have also speculated that maybe Bergevin doesn't have the full CAP available. Maybe Molson has his own CAP that Berg is being forced to follow. If so, that helps explain some of the results, much like Poile's challenges. Most of Berg's success took place early, on the backs of players he inherited. Not exactly sterling work. Since the trade, Nashville's had 41 playoff games and Montreal 6. That trade will be controversial for years to come. It's not balanced, however, to underrate Poile's career when, except the past few years, he's worked for weak franchises that didn't make a lot of money (Washington and Nashville) and still kept them competitive. Poile left the Capitals in 1999, the same year well funded owner Ted Leonsis bought the Capitals. He was hired by Nashville but they had ownership that wasn't rich too. Circumstances worked against Poile for much of his career. Once his new Nashville bosses funded the team properly they've been much more competitive. Will they win the Cup? Maybe not, but it takes luck as well. Look at Rutherford, who I think is one of the worst GM's in the league. He's won the Cup 3 times. The first one time he had to have two opposing teams have their best players taken out by injury. With Pittsburgh, he walked into a situation where he had Crosby, Malkin and Letang. Shero had drafted Dumoulin and Murray who were key parts of those winning teams. Rutherford made a good trade to get Kessel, who could have won the Conn Smythe both years. Is he a great GM? I'd hate to be taking over after he's fired. They have no pipeline and their best players are over 30. Rutherford also benefited from Fiala and Johansen getting injured on Nasvhille before they played Pittsburgh. The guy just has horseshoes everywhere and was inducted into the Hall of Fame. Incredible. |
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Post by Cranky on Jun 26, 2019 13:04:41 GMT -5
I dunno much, nowhere near as smart or spiffy dresser as BargainBinz, but I would take that trade for Subban and move Petry or if a better deal came, Weber. PK better then either of them and that margin will get bigger.
But then, nobody is as smart and as spiffy dressed as our brainiac.
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Post by Cranky on Jun 26, 2019 13:06:49 GMT -5
PK is not a horrible defensman but more along average with a flair for the dramatic, or more flash than substance. Certainly if he was a UFA this year I don't see anyone giving him anything close to his current salary. Blunt reality is that PK is still better the Petry or Weber....and that difference will increase. P.S. Bergy is still a second rate GM. The only thing that saved him from a bottom feeder was the Domi/Tatar trades that worked out, but could as easily gone bad. More critically, if Price catches a cold, this team is chasing another "worst season in history". Seven years in and that's what he's "built". |
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Jun 26, 2019 13:26:42 GMT -5
At the time of "The Trade" a lot of posters were very quick to condemn MB as a horrible GM and Poile as a genius. Poile has been a GM for 30 years and has never been a cup winner who has now painted himself into a corner where he has to unload because of cap reasons and to keep players under contract. I'm not saying MB is a genius by any stretch but maybe Poile isn't either. As for PK, well there are 23 players on the team and if he was as highly valued as some would like to think then Poile would have found a way to keep him by trading a different defenseman or dumping a couple of lesser players to make up that $9 million. I suspect that PK was offered to every other team and they all passed except for the Devils who said we will take him for peanuts. PK is not a horrible defensman but more along average with a flair for the dramatic, or more flash than substance. Certainly if he was a UFA this year I don't see anyone giving him anything close to his current salary. I don't think it's as black and white (pardon the pun) as you make out. 1. At this point in time, Josi is better. They have Ellis and Ekholm under contract. They have a glaring need to add goals and upgrade at center. 2. They needed to clear the whole contract for the clear push for Duchene. That limits who's going to make and offer and what that offer will be. He's anything but average. PK was a Norris candidate in 17-18. He played through injury much of 18-19. If he's healthy, I like the move to NJD for him. Hughes, Hischier, and Hall represent a quality group of forwards. They also play a style more akin to what suits PK. I think he rebounds to Norris form and likely gets further consideration. Obviously we have a difference in opinion on PK's on ice ability. The point was for example Turris and Bonino make a combined $10 million a year. Turris is signed at $6 million for another 6 years which I see as another bad contract. If Subban was seen as a Norris candidate defenseman that can change a game wouldn't Nashville be much better to move the other two players and keep PK and add Duchene to the mix? Turris will likely move down the lineup if Duchene signs there and Bonino is a third line center that could be replaced easily I would think. The fact that no one stepped up wanting to trade for Subban that would give up a significant asset says a lot about his value. |
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Post by Cranky on Jun 26, 2019 14:06:09 GMT -5
It's not that other GM didn't want him, it's that other GMs have different circumstances. They may have younger defensman that are getting better and/or younger defense to begin with. AND they have no cap space.
Our best defenders are 32 and 34, declining and no one in the system that is proven as a top pairing. Taking Subban at a cheap price gives us the ability to trade the older defenseman and get better. At worse, we would have three top 2 pairing for not much more then Mol$ons money.
THAT is good asset management.
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Post by jkr on Jun 26, 2019 15:29:12 GMT -5
I don't think it's as black and white (pardon the pun) as you make out. 1. At this point in time, Josi is better. They have Ellis and Ekholm under contract. They have a glaring need to add goals and upgrade at center. 2. They needed to clear the whole contract for the clear push for Duchene. That limits who's going to make and offer and what that offer will be. He's anything but average. PK was a Norris candidate in 17-18. He played through injury much of 18-19. If he's healthy, I like the move to NJD for him. Hughes, Hischier, and Hall represent a quality group of forwards. They also play a style more akin to what suits PK. I think he rebounds to Norris form and likely gets further consideration. Obviously we have a difference in opinion on PK's on ice ability. The point was for example Turris and Bonino make a combined $10 million a year. Turris is signed at $6 million for another 6 years which I see as another bad contract. If Subban was seen as a Norris candidate defenseman that can change a game wouldn't Nashville be much better to move the other two players and keep PK and add Duchene to the mix? Turris will likely move down the lineup if Duchene signs there and Bonino is a third line center that could be replaced easily I would think. The fact that no one stepped up wanting to trade for Subban that would give up a significant asset says a lot about his value. Subban wasn't just seen as a Norris candidate, he was a Norris finalist. Turris has 5 more years at 6 million, Bonino has 2 more years at 4.1 ( and is 31). It would be a lot more difficult to find takers for those guys, especially Turris. |
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Post by blny on Jun 26, 2019 15:32:42 GMT -5
I don't think it's as black and white (pardon the pun) as you make out. 1. At this point in time, Josi is better. They have Ellis and Ekholm under contract. They have a glaring need to add goals and upgrade at center. 2. They needed to clear the whole contract for the clear push for Duchene. That limits who's going to make and offer and what that offer will be. He's anything but average. PK was a Norris candidate in 17-18. He played through injury much of 18-19. If he's healthy, I like the move to NJD for him. Hughes, Hischier, and Hall represent a quality group of forwards. They also play a style more akin to what suits PK. I think he rebounds to Norris form and likely gets further consideration. Obviously we have a difference in opinion on PK's on ice ability. The point was for example Turris and Bonino make a combined $10 million a year. Turris is signed at $6 million for another 6 years which I see as another bad contract. If Subban was seen as a Norris candidate defenseman that can change a game wouldn't Nashville be much better to move the other two players and keep PK and add Duchene to the mix? Turris will likely move down the lineup if Duchene signs there and Bonino is a third line center that could be replaced easily I would think. The fact that no one stepped up wanting to trade for Subban that would give up a significant asset says a lot about his value. I guess we do. I think you're looking at his "value" in a vacuum. The league knows what Nashville wants to do. They're not about to help them. PK has three years left at $9 million and is one year removed from said nomination. Turris has five at $6 million. Bonino has two years left at $4.1 million. Bonino is moveable. He put up 35 points for his $4.1 million. Turris is a boat anchor. No way anyone takes that term and contract. He's only a couple of months younger than PK. |
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Post by blny on Jun 26, 2019 15:35:50 GMT -5
Obviously we have a difference in opinion on PK's on ice ability. The point was for example Turris and Bonino make a combined $10 million a year. Turris is signed at $6 million for another 6 years which I see as another bad contract. If Subban was seen as a Norris candidate defenseman that can change a game wouldn't Nashville be much better to move the other two players and keep PK and add Duchene to the mix? Turris will likely move down the lineup if Duchene signs there and Bonino is a third line center that could be replaced easily I would think. The fact that no one stepped up wanting to trade for Subban that would give up a significant asset says a lot about his value. Subban wasn't just seen as a Norris candidate, he was a Norris finalist. Turris has 5 more years at 6 million, Bonino has 2 more years at 4.1 ( and is 31). It would be a lot more difficult to find takers for those guys, especially Turris. Beat me to it. |
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Post by Cranky on Jun 26, 2019 16:42:46 GMT -5
Subban wasn't just seen as a Norris candidate, he was a Norris finalist. Help me out here because old age is misfiring those memory cells.......when was Weber and Petry a Norris finalist? |
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Jun 26, 2019 20:14:51 GMT -5
Subban wasn't just seen as a Norris candidate, he was a Norris finalist. Turris has 5 more years at 6 million, Bonino has 2 more years at 4.1 ( and is 31). It would be a lot more difficult to find takers for those guys, especially Turris. Beat me to it. You are kind of making my point and if PK is so valued he should be in higher demand, I am not sure he is even the best defenseman on Nashville. If Nashville does sign Duchene you can look at as trading one player for the other. If he doesnt sign Duchene then Poile probably made a huge mistake |
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Post by seventeen on Jun 26, 2019 21:31:48 GMT -5
You are kind of making my point and if PK is so valued he should be in higher demand, I am not sure he is even the best defenseman on Nashville. If Nashville does sign Duchene you can look at as trading one player for the other. If he doesnt sign Duchene then Poile probably made a huge mistake Couple of things at play here. I think there's still some uncertainty over PK's situation with his back. It was believed he played through a herniated disc a couple of seasons ago and there's still a question mark there. Secondly, concerning Bonino and Turris. Yes, it looks like they're now both bad contracts (unless they turn it around and have good seasons this year), but trading them would involve giving something up, like an Armia. They don't have enough value on their own because of the contracts. Andrew Berkshire did a good analytics story for Sportsnet on PK. He's still above average in all categories, but it is down from being in elite territory before. At least from that data driven, unbiased standpoint, he still is a pretty good defenceman. I have thought for a while that he's not been 100%. His passing is still great and he still defends well, but I think his mobility is not as good as it was. I'm curious as to whether the rest this summer will make a difference. |
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Post by Skilly on Jun 27, 2019 12:51:09 GMT -5
I really doubt Subban was offered to every other team. That's just not realistic; Poile would target teams with cap space & defensive needs. As far as Subban being average, I disagree, He had 59 points last year, that's a decent number for a 2nd line center & he was again nominated for the Norris. His detractors can keep saying he is over rated but people who cover the game think otherwise. The other side of this is Weber. At his age ( soon to be 34) and with his contract what would he fetch if he was offered around the league? In an interview with the Devils GM, he said that Poile offered Subban to 3 teams only. Poile apparently gave up on waiting for the Leafs offer and traded him to the Devils |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jun 27, 2019 14:30:30 GMT -5
Prediction: If healthy, Subban will once again contend for a Norris trophy. I agree. Poile is rolling the dice a bit, but he's clearly trying to create cap space to make a run at Panarin or Duchene. If that works, then all of a sudden it's PK Subban for Matt Duchene or Panarin plus picks/prospects and the Subban trade looks completely different. The Preds had the best top 4 D in hockey, but it wasn't enough. They need more up front so one of the D had to go. Subban made the most sense IF they could find someone to take the cap hit, which they did. It's funny how the press and Subban haters saw this as a salary dump or evidence that Subban is overrated. I saw it completely opposite. The value of cap space in the NHL is huge, it provides options and flexibility, so moving a guy like Subban is as much about what Poile can do with the cap space as it is about Subban the player. The money changes things. That said, PK had a down year by his standards and there's nothing I'd like more than to see him in the Norris trophy hunt again next year. NJ could be a fun place for him with some young studs and new energy. I wouldn't be shocked if he had a great year there. |
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Post by PTH on Jun 27, 2019 15:46:29 GMT -5
Prediction: If healthy, Subban will once again contend for a Norris trophy. ..... I wouldn't be shocked if he had a great year there. Well, it's also a question of NJ not having a great D, so he'll get 30 minutes of prime ice time, and will keep on getting ice time even if he screws up or takes needless risks, as he is prone to do, so it's to be expected he'll have a strong season: he'll have a lot of rope. |
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Post by Cranky on Jun 27, 2019 19:25:07 GMT -5
I'm waiting for the argument that Petry is better then PK. Or Weber.
Even if one wanted to make the case for Weber, he's is 4 years older and has far harder miles on him.
Bottom line, PK would instantly be our best defenseman...which by definition makes the other two tradeable.
Last but not least, this is about BargainBinz and feelings. Nothing to do as a hockey move.
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