PK is a salary dump!

[habsorbed]

Can't believe PK is a salary dump. Would you have wanted MB to grab him given the asking price - Devils gave up nothing some marginal players and two 2nds.

PK had an off year last year. Question is was it an off year or has he faded. Hard to believe after all the talk on this board, including me, that Shea was going to fade way before PK, that it may be the other way around.

Obvious issue is PK's $9 million salary. I was a huge PK lover and hated to see him go. But I think I've moved on now and would rather keep the salary. I guess most other GMs feel the same way as Preds obviously couldn't get much interest.

[jkr]

When I heard this I thought it was for Hall. A couple of picks? Really?

[PTH]

One of the prospects is highly regarded by NWTHabsfan, so it's not a complete cap dump.

Nashville also freed up cap space, and cap space is a real asset, moreso this year.

[jkr]

Poile is pretty cold blooded. Not afraid to move on from anybody.

[Cranky]

The value seems more like a second pairing then a top 20 defenseman in the NHL.

Not surprised. Likes the flashlight more then his career. I loved him..but not much now.

Still, I would of traded for him because he still has first and second pairing for another 5-6 years.

[PTH]

We wouldn't have the cap room to take him straight for picks and prospects. And even if we made some room, by next season, we'd be in a cap crunch ourselves.

[jkr]

Jun 22, 2019 13:39:29 GMT -5 Cranky said:

The value seems more like a second pairing then a top 20 defenseman in the NHL.

Not surprised. Likes the flashlight more then his career. I loved him..but not much now.

Still, I would of traded for him because he still has first and second pairing for another 5-6 years.

Don't know a lot about the Devils D corps but Subban would probably be a top pairing there.

[folatre]

Poile is definitely not sentimental.

It seems like this deal opens the path to get Duchene signed but nothing more really. And then the following season Josi's salary will more than double so Poile will have figure out how to make Turris go away, which may be nearly impossible because no matter how far-fetched it sounds he still has $30 million dollars (cap space and real dollars) left on his contract. That is scary.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

[jkr]

Engels is forgetting that Subban played 3 years in Nashville with a trip to the Finals & a Presidents Trophy during that period.

There is value in that.

Think before you tweet Engels.

[BadCompany]

I love PK as much as the next guy, but at the end of the day he gave Nashville seasons of 40, 59, and 31 points.

That's a lot for $9 million a year. Even the 59 point season was still only good for 9th in the league, amongst defensemen. Yeah, there were injuries, but you don't get pity points in the NHL.

If PK produced like a $9 million defensemen they wouldn't have traded him, and certainly not for that package.

[folatre]

Engles is okay. But this is kind of a silly inaccuracy.

Like Jkr said, Weber was traded for Subban. In three seasons Subban played 41 playoff games and the Predators won four playoff series. Hockey is a team game and this is not a knock on Weber, but in what sense is it logical to imply this trade did not work out for Nashville when they just enjoyed the the best three year stretch in franchise history?

Engels also ignores that cap space is an asset that can be used to 'buy' real players. Nashville will be introducing Duchene on July 1.

[Forum Ghost]

The point Engels is making is that only 3 years after the trade, Nashville doesn’t have much to show for it in terms of quality assets today. Despite PK’s high cap hit, this is a really weak return for Poile.

[Forum Ghost]

Jun 22, 2019 14:13:00 GMT -5 jkr said:

Engels is forgetting that Subban played 3 years in Nashville with a trip to the Finals & a Presidents Trophy during that period.

There is value in that.

Think before you tweet Engels.

Nashville had a solid team before PK got there, so there’s no way to tell if they would’ve achieved that same success, even if they didn’t have Subban. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn’t have. But seeing as how he was a salary dump today makes me think that Poile doesn’t see PK as the key to his team’s success - otherwise he would’ve kept him and cleared up cap space by trading another player instead.

[folatre]

But if you can only have Subban (30 year old d-man) or Duchene (28 year old centre), not both, then who do you pick?

The cap space is the key part of the return.

[folatre]

Turris has negative value. Poile could not trade him without doing a Dubas.

[jkr]

Jun 22, 2019 14:19:13 GMT -5 BadCompany said:

I love PK as much as the next guy, but at the end of the day he gave Nashville seasons of 40, 59, and 31 points.

That's a lot for $9 million a year. Even the 59 point season was still only good for 9th in the league, amongst defensemen. Yeah, there were injuries, but you don't get pity points in the NHL.

If PK produced like a $9 million defensemen they wouldn't have traded him, and certainly not for that package.

He did finish 3rd in Norris voting in 2018 so his play, at least that season, was on a high level.

Weber has produced seasons of 42, 16 and 32 points in the same period. I wonder what value he has around the league?

[Willie Dog]

Poile stated that the Devils were the only team that would absorb the entire cap hit and the preds didnt have to retain salary....

[jkr]

Friedman mentioned this afternoon that the Devils are trying to sign Hall to an extension & they wanted to demonstrate that they are making an effort to upgrade their D.

[blny]

Poile was compelled to move him to create space. They could have kept him and let others leave in 2020 in order to sign Josi. But this isn't about Josi. It's about Duchene. The league knew it, and played hardball. So it looks like a cap dump on the surface, but it's about the other GMs knowing what Poile wants to do and making life harder for him. He needed to remove it all.

[folatre]

Jun 22, 2019 17:50:54 GMT -5 Willie Dog said:

Poile stated that the Devils were the only team that would absorb the entire cap hit and the preds didnt have to retain salary....

Willie, yeah, I think that is the essence of it. There are just not that many clubs who sit around with $9 million of empty cap space on a regular basis and even fewer from that already small subset of clubs who are willing to take the full real dollars on their payrolls, so Poile was selling in a market that did not favour the seller.

I thought Ellis was pretty close to terrible in the playoffs, just getting manhandled physically. Obviously Subban at 3 x 9 was big one on the defense that makes room for Duchene, but long term 7 x 6.25 of Ellis may be worse.

Josi, the Captain, has been insanely underpaid for years so I have to think he will be watching closely what kind of money is put on the table for Duchene. Considering what Karlsson just got, Josi is not taking less than 8 x 9.5. So Duchene will probably have to slot in at a 9 AAV. Johansen may not appreciate ushering in an era where he is made to feel like the 2C but that is how it goes sometimes.

[PTH]

Jun 22, 2019 19:36:19 GMT -5 folatre said:

Jun 22, 2019 17:50:54 GMT -5 Willie Dog said:

Poile stated that the Devils were the only team that would absorb the entire cap hit and the preds didnt have to retain salary....

Willie, yeah, I think that is the essence of it. There are just not that many clubs who sit around with $9 million of empty cap space on a regular basis and even fewer from that already small subset of clubs who are willing to take the full real dollars on their payrolls, so Poile was selling in a market that did not favour the seller.

I thought Ellis was pretty close to terrible in the playoffs, just getting manhandled physically. Obviously Subban at 3 x 9 was big one on the defense that makes room for Duchene, but long term 7 x 6.25 of Ellis may be worse.

Josi, the Captain, has been insanely underpaid for years so I have to think he will be watching closely what kind of money is put on the table for Duchene. Considering what Karlsson just got, Josi is not taking less than 8 x 9.5. So Duchene will probably have to slot in at a 9 AAV. Johansen may not appreciate ushering in an era where he is made to feel like the 2C but that is how it goes sometimes.

Some Preds fans on HFboards noted that Ellis just signed a team-friendly deal; if you move him first, it creates a ripple effect throughout their other contract negotiations.

[folatre]

I can understand that issue about dealing a guy literally before the deal (which management also agreed to) even starts. Guys in the room may certainly think that is a jerk move by management.

But are they also saying they like Ellis' contract?

[PTH]

Jun 22, 2019 19:54:32 GMT -5 folatre said:

I can understand that issue about dealing a guy literally before the deal (which management also agreed to) even starts. Guys in the room may certainly think that is a jerk move by management.

But are they also saying they like Ellis' contract?

I think everyone agrees he didn't have a great season, but didn't notice anything about the contract.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Jun 22, 2019 14:30:32 GMT -5 Forum Ghost said:

The point Engels is making is that only 3 years after the trade, Nashville doesn’t have much to show for it in terms of quality assets today. Despite PK’s high cap hit, this is a really weak return for Poile.

David Poile couldn't have a 2nd-pairing d-man (at least numbers wise), in PK Subban, making substantially more than his best rearguard in Roman Josi ... Josi becomes a UFA at the end of the 20-21 season and Poile just freed up enough $ to sign him to a long-term deal ... Subban takes his philanthropy and his panache to NJ, and he'll do just fine ... he'll probably see top-pair minutes and if he does he'll have a chance at jump-starting his career again ...

Cheers.

[seventeen]

What I take out of this is the value of CAP space is being appreciated more. Subban is still at worst a good defenceman and when healthy a very good dman. But when you solve a Cap problem for a GM you have to make them pay. Dubas gave up a first rounder to save $7MM a year.

Poile needs to re-sign Josi and take a run at Duchene. Johansen and Turris didn’t work out well enough and Nashville needs offense. Something has to give and PK saves them the most money. Simple as that.

It’s something for Berg to keep in mind if he’s helping out a GM. The return should be more than an Armia.

[Forum Ghost]

Jun 23, 2019 1:36:11 GMT -5 seventeen said:

What I take out of this is the value of CAP space is being appreciated more. Subban is still at worst a good defenceman and when healthy a very good dman. But when you solve a Cap problem for a GM you have to make them pay. Dubas gave up a first rounder to save $7MM a year.

Poile needs to re-sign Josi and take a run at Duchene. Johansen and Turris didn’t work out well enough and Nashville needs offense. Something has to give and PK saves them the most money. Simple as that.

It’s something for Berg to keep in mind if he’s helping out a GM. The return should be more than an Armia.

The general rule of thumb is the lower the cap hit that you’re absorbing, the lower the return from the cap-strapped team. But even with that logic, considering Mason’s cap hit, Berg did very well in getting Armia. Heck, if you compare that deal with yesterday’s Subban deal, Berg got a very useful, proven NHL player, while Poile didn’t even get that and didn’t get a 1st rounder either.

Even when comparing Armia with the return Carolina got for taking Marleau, I would still take Armia. Armia’s a recent former 1st rounder, who is already established in the NHL as a strong 3rd liner and penalty killer. Personally, in these cap saviour trades, I would rather take a known commodity instead of a question mark - i.e. what will turn out to be a late 1st rounder for Carolina, from the Leafs.

In looking back at yesterday’s deals as comparables, it shows to me how well Berg did on the Armia trade last summer.

[blny]

Hall already excited PK aboard.

[seventeen]

Jun 23, 2019 8:38:08 GMT -5 Forum Ghost said:

Jun 23, 2019 1:36:11 GMT -5 seventeen said:

What I take out of this is the value of CAP space is being appreciated more. Subban is still at worst a good defenceman and when healthy a very good dman. But when you solve a Cap problem for a GM you have to make them pay. Dubas gave up a first rounder to save $7MM a year.

Poile needs to re-sign Josi and take a run at Duchene. Johansen and Turris didn’t work out well enough and Nashville needs offense. Something has to give and PK saves them the most money. Simple as that.

It’s something for Berg to keep in mind if he’s helping out a GM. The return should be more than an Armia.

The general rule of thumb is the lower the cap hit that you’re absorbing, the lower the return from the cap-strapped team. But even with that logic, considering Mason’s cap hit, Berg did very well in getting Armia. Heck, if you compare that deal with yesterday’s Subban deal, Berg got a very useful, proven NHL player, while Poile didn’t even get that and didn’t get a 1st rounder either.

Even when comparing Armia with the return Carolina got for taking Marleau, I would still take Armia. Armia’s a recent former 1st rounder, who is already established in the NHL as a strong 3rd liner and penalty killer. Personally, in these cap saviour trades, I would rather take a known commodity instead of a question mark - i.e. what will turn out to be a late 1st rounder for Carolina, from the Leafs.

In looking back at yesterday’s deals as comparables, it shows to me how well Berg did on the Armia trade last summer.

I guess we differ in valuing players. I value a first round pick much more than Armia. Let me ask. If you offered Armia around the league would you get a first round pick in the 20-30 range (where that Marleau pick will likely end up, in a good draft)? I have trouble thinking you'd get a second round pick.

Another way to measure it is to consider what happens if Armia gets injured. Does it damage the team? Can they replace him without it costing much or by inserting a prospect? I like Joel. I think he's an ok 3rd line player and a very good 4th line player. He's not a natural scorer. He's very good at protecting the puck and along the boards. If he could shoot, Kotka would have 10 more assists. I think he's replaceable, without too much difficulty. Which brings us back to the trade. My opinion is that Berg used his cap space in an ok manner, but passed up the possibility of getting a better return. Not necessarily with Chevaldayoff because he's a shrewd GM, but perhaps with others. As we're seeing, CAP space is precious. Vancouver's Benning settled for too little in the recent JT Miller trade. He shouldn't have offered more than a second round pick because he resolved a real headache for Brisebois, so why do it cheaply? Handing over a first was stupid. If I was Briseblois I might have done that even if I didn't have a CAP problem. Vancouver's first for Miller? Pretty close.

What Carolina has done twice now, is leverage CAP risk into a good return, and not just for a third line, replaceable player. That's what I'd like to see. Swing for the fences. If you miss, ok, not a huge loss other than money. If you hit a homer, like Terevainen, you're good for years.

But there's that one stipulation, right?....it only costs money. To you and I who don't have to write the cheque, no big deal. Molson may think otherwise. And that adds another factor into the equation. Why do it for Armia? Sure he's a useful guy, but still a 3rd liner. Its like signing him as a free agent and paying him way more than you should.  Why pay more than you should for a 3/4 line player?

Bryan Bickell was being paid $4MM a year and when Carolina took his contract he had 3 years left. Mason was paid $4.1MM a year with 2 years left. So Carolina got Terevainen for $12MM, and what turned into Artur Kayumov and Keith Petruzzelli. Part of that is Chicago's drafting of course, but it boils down to Chicago giving up Terevainen for $12MM. Sounds good to me. Winnipeg gave up Armia for $8MM. $4MM more buys you 46 more points per year. That's the opportunity cost in this example. And now Carolina has paid $7MM for a low first round pick. Once again....I'm in on that one.

One can't fault Berg for getting Armia, but there are better possibilities out there. Carolina keeps proving it. I'm hearing that Berg and Dubas had a long talk on the floor and who knows what it was about, but it could have been about Marleau. Did we turn down a similar deal? We have the CAP space or could easily create it. Oh to be a fly on the wall.

[GNick99]

Jun 22, 2019 12:37:45 GMT -5 habsorbed said:

Can't believe PK is a salary dump. Would you have wanted MB to grab him given the asking price - Devils gave up nothing some marginal players and two 2nds.

PK had an off year last year. Question is was it an off year or has he faded. Hard to believe after all the talk on this board, including me, that Shea was going to fade way before PK, that it may be the other way around.

Obvious issue is PK's $9 million salary. I was a huge PK lover and hated to see him go. But I think I've moved on now and would rather keep the salary. I guess most other GMs feel the same way as Preds obviously couldn't get much interest.

His contract is why Montreal dumped him in first place. Why go back there? At Subban salary you don't want any negatives tied to you or you will be a deterrent to your team. Subban has many negatives.