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Post by CentreHice on Jun 25, 2020 7:15:04 GMT -5
Players: Marian Hossa, Jarome Iginla, Kevin Lowe, Kim St-Pierre, and Doug Wilson
Builders: Ken Holland
Lowe joins Gretzky, Kurri, Messier, and Anderson as members of the 5-Cup Oilers' team. (Coffey won 3 in Edmonton). The basic line is: While Lowe didn't put up a lot of numbers, he blocked shots, faced the other teams' best, played big minutes, leadership, etc. Like Rod Langway without the Norris.
Lowe won a 6th Cup with the Rangers.
No problem with his induction...BUT...there was another stalwart, shutdown d-man on that 5-Cup Edmonton team who put up MORE points in LESS games--both regular season and playoffs--who will never be considered for the Hall. Charlie Huddy. His stats/leadership abilities will never be analyzed re: his importance to those Cups.
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There are 18 voters on the Induction Committee. (from the Edmonton Sun). 14 votes are needed for induction.
Jari Kurri, Igor Larionov, Bobby Clarke, Luc Robitaille, Ron Francis, Mike Gartner, Anders Hedberg, Brian Burke, David Poile, John Davidson, Mike Murphy, Mark Chipman, David Branch, Cassie Campbell-Pascall and media selectors Mike Farber, Bob McKenzie, Pierre McGuire and Marc De Foy. You need 14 out of 18 voters to gain entry to the HHOF.
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Post by jkr on Jun 25, 2020 7:43:40 GMT -5
I haven't looked at the numbers but at first glance, I have never considered guys like Lowe & Wilson Hall of Fame players. My opinion could change after looking at the stats I guess.
Hockey just seems to have a lower bar then other sports.
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Post by CentreHice on Jun 25, 2020 8:02:47 GMT -5
Compared to Lowe, Wilson put up almost twice the points in approx. 200 less games. Almost 3X the goals. Won the Norris in 81-82.
No Cups in Chicago...but they didn't have the Oilers' firepower.
From the Edmonton Sun article rooting for Lowe's induction, here's a list (exhaustive?) of other players who were up for nomimation.
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With the 2020 vote announced Wednesday, right-winger Jarome Iginla is a slam-dunk in his first year of eligibility. Other than that, it’s up in the air. Winger Marian Hossa maybe leads second pack of contenders which includes Alex Mogilny, Theo Fleury, Daniel Alfredsson, Pierre Turgeon, Dale Hunter, Jeremy Roenick, Alex Kovalev, Keith Tkachuk, Bernie Nicholls, Rick Middleton, Rod Brind’Amour, goalies Mike Vernon and Curtis Joseph and defenceman Doug Wilson.
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Nobody earlier than Middleton?
Claude Provost, the premier shutdown forward of his era...with 9 Cups...appears to be forgotten.
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Post by folatre on Jun 25, 2020 9:32:38 GMT -5
Of this group, Lowe was the only one that made me wonder. He was definitely good at this role, but was he among the top five defensive d-man of his era? Last year I felt confident that if the voters are trying to give the very best defensive stalwarts their due, then Carbonneau deserved it.
Good point about Provost. Being the defensive stalwart of era that proceeds that the voters played hockey in probably means that it would be harder for him to ever get his due.
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Post by seventeen on Jun 25, 2020 11:59:51 GMT -5
I equate Lowe to guys like Terry Harper and Jacques Laperriere. Excellent defensive defensemen who help a SC winner win a Cup, but not H of F material. Not difference makers. But then, Bettman's in the H of F so that gives us an idea of the height of the bar. You have to dig to find it.
IMO, Baseball's standard is extremely high, perhaps too high, but at least if you're in Cooperstown, you know you're in an exclusive club. Baseball and Hockey are like comparing Victoria Cross winners to Purple Hearts. Which, unfortunately, is not kind to the hockey players who deserve to be there.
As an aside, having Lowe in there, but not Paul Henderson, is a travesty.
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Post by CentreHice on Jun 25, 2020 12:40:18 GMT -5
Yep. When you consider the stakes...Canada needed to win the final 3 games.
Henderson got the winner in each of them.
Game 6. 1:23 after Hull tied it at 1, and just 15 seconds after Cournoyer made it 2-1, Henderson catches Tretiak still thinking about it. Very smart play.
Game 7. Bergman was a beast. Goal sequence starts at 2:12 of the clip. Tied 3-3 with around 2:00 left in the third. Dialed in.
We all know what happened in Game 8.
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My dilemma with fully celebrating that series surrounds what happened to Kharlamov. The coaching staff (via Fergie, reportedly) gave the order, and Clarke carried it out.
Do we win Game 7 if Kharlamov's ankle hadn't been fractured in Game 6.
Do we win Game 8 if Kharlamov was even at 80% health? He gave it a good go, assisted on a first period goal, but had to sit out the third period...and we scored the only 3 goals...outshooting the Soviets 14-5.
Then again...Team Canada wasn't treated well in Moscow...the Soviet players were no Lady Byngers themselves...and the officiating was out of control.
The players said it was a war.
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Post by seventeen on Jun 25, 2020 14:03:32 GMT -5
You can play that 'what if game' back and forth, CH. On the Russian side, Firsov wasn't in the line-up because he protested Tarasov not being coach (according to The Athletic), while the WHA and injuries kept Bobby Hull and Bobby Orr from that team. A healthy Orr alone, I think, would have more than equalized any Russian additions. That series certainly opened eyes.
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Post by CentreHice on Jun 25, 2020 14:17:46 GMT -5
All things considered...(I like to consider all things)...I'd have no problem with Henderson's induction.
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Post by seventeen on Jun 25, 2020 14:25:00 GMT -5
Me too. Definitely deserving. Though others don't think so. Henderson was a solid guy, much like Claude Provost, who could play excellent defensive hockey and put up more points than you'd expect. Now you can have a debate whether that kind of player deserves to be in the H of F (would Gainey make it?), but when that player accomplishes a feat that defines the heart of a nation, even if it was only over a month, it is the very definition of 'Famous".
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Post by Tankdriver on Jun 25, 2020 15:19:15 GMT -5
Me too. Definitely deserving. Though others don't think so. Henderson was a solid guy, much like Claude Provost, who could play excellent defensive hockey and put up more points than you'd expect. Now you can have a debate whether that kind of player deserves to be in the H of F (would Gainey make it?), but when that player accomplishes a feat that defines the heart of a nation, even if it was only over a month, it is the very definition of 'Famous". Has anyone here sent a tweet or an e-mail to one of the voters and asked there opinion on Provost.....kind of like plant the seed for future years? I know they aren't allowed to discuss names, so you will never know but fire off enough messages to each one and it might bring up the name in their next discussions. Another name that might come up soon: Tom Barasso. |
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Post by seventeen on Jun 25, 2020 16:35:50 GMT -5
I'm waiting for John Scott's nomination. Time to jazz up the Hall.
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Post by CentreHice on Jun 25, 2020 20:05:22 GMT -5
Me too. Definitely deserving. Though others don't think so. Henderson was a solid guy, much like Claude Provost, who could play excellent defensive hockey and put up more points than you'd expect. Now you can have a debate whether that kind of player deserves to be in the H of F (would Gainey make it?), but when that player accomplishes a feat that defines the heart of a nation, even if it was only over a month, it is the very definition of 'Famous". Has anyone here sent a tweet or an e-mail to one of the voters and asked there opinion on Provost.....kind of like plant the seed for future years? I know they aren't allowed to discuss names, so you will never know but fire off enough messages to each one and it might bring up the name in their next discussions. Excellent suggestion. |
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Post by seventeen on Jun 25, 2020 23:13:32 GMT -5
Good article on the Hall of Fame process by Ken Campbell of the Hockey News. It's so much like everything else is in hockey, full of buddies, no real process and no accountability.
Welcome to the Confounding COVID Hall of Fame Class of 2020
Chairman Lanny McDonald said, "sometimes it's about timing," when it comes to being inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame, but in reality it's all about the whims of 18 people who have no transparency or accountability
By Ken Campbell
June 24, 2020
Shortly after unveiling the newest members of the Hockey Hall of Fame, chairman Lanny McDonald called it “a phenomenal class.” When you have two guys who have waited a combined 45 years to get into the institution, you bet it’s phenomenal.
Welcome to the Confounding COVID Hall of Fame Class of 2020™, one that is all over the map and one that seemed to be intent on making up for previous omissions. How else do you explain Doug Wilson being elected in his 25th year of eligibility and Kevin Lowe in his 20th? It’s not as egregious as Rogie Vachon waiting 41 years to get the call, but it’s getting there.
Let’s start with the obvious. Jarome Iginla was a slam-dunk first ballot Hall of Famer. On that we can all agree. See how easy that was? Kim St-Pierre was pretty close to a shoo-in as well, even though she’s been eligible for two years. Ken Holland? Three Stanley Cups and a ton of regular season success. Easy choice.
Beyond that, though, there are the almost yearly head scratchers. Marian Hossa was a first-ballot Hall of Famer on the strength of being a second-team all-star once in his career. For all the talk about what a great two-way player he was, he was a Selke Trophy finalist once. Meanwhile, Rod Brind’Amour won two Selke Trophies and he’s not in. Neither are Theo Fleury, Alexander Mogilny or Tom Barrasso.
At the other end of the spectrum were the mystifying than the cases of Wilson and Lowe. It’s completely legitimate to debate their Hall of Fame credentials, which is something the hockey world has been doing for years. It’s not as though this snuck up on the selection committee. What was it about this year that made them worthy of induction over all the other years they had been snubbed? Either they should have been Hall of Famers in a reasonable amount of time or they aren’t Hall of Famers at all. Having them wait this long exposes one of the many flaws in the system that bestows the highest personal honor on NHL players.
Think about this for a second. The pool of voters for the Masterton Trophy this season will be in the hundreds. The pool of people who vote on who gets into the Hockey Hall of Fame is 18 and if 14 of them vote for a player, he or she gets in. There is no Hall of Fame in sports that leaves such a monumental decision to so few people and there is not a Hall of Fame that demands less of its voters than the Hockey Hall of Fame.
The problem with this is that every player’s legacy is at the hands of 18 people who meet for one day and cast a ballot. You could argue that there’s nothing more important in hockey that gets less time than Hall of Fame voting. The other problem is that nobody on that committee is allowed to discuss which players they voted in favor of or against. It essentially gives the selection committee a free pass with none of the responsibility of having to defend their choices. The Professional Hockey Writers’ Association, which votes on the majority of the year-end awards, is not afforded the same privilege. And that’s because, as a group, the writers decided a couple of years ago that they wanted to be accountable and have its ballots made public.
Perhaps McDonald unwittingly expressed it best. When asked about the long waits for both Lowe and Wilson, he essentially acknowledged that it’s pretty much a crapshoot. “People have to understand that you not only have to get 14 of the 18 votes, or 75 percent of the votes, but it’s also sometimes who you’re up against when you’re nominated for that year,” McDonald said. “And I’m not saying whether they were ever nominated before or not. It’s just sometimes it’s timing.”
Of course, the only flaw in that logic is that sometimes there are as many as four players inducted on the men’s side per year and other years there are fewer. Since Wilson became first-time eligible in 1996, there have been a total of 32 open spots that have not been filled. There have been 22 since Lowe’s first year of eligibility. If it was just about timing and competition, Wilson would have been inducted as a first-ballot Hall of Famer in 1996 and Lowe would have been on the first-ballot in 2001.
So it’s pretty clear that guys like Mogilny, Barrasso, Fleury, Brind’Amour and every other guy who’s biding his time before he gets in the Hall of Very Good just has to keep waiting. He might be 50 when he gets in, might be 75, might not even be alive to enjoy the accomplishment. Because when it comes to the Hall of Fame’s selection committee it actually doesn’t come down to timing. It comes down to whims of 18 people who have zero transparency or accountability.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jun 29, 2020 1:18:24 GMT -5
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Post by Skilly on Jul 15, 2020 7:50:46 GMT -5
My yearly rant of the NHL Hall of Lame
For starters. Why does everyone consider Jerome Iginla an automatic first ballot inductee? For years, players have NOT been getting in because they have not won any Stanley Cups. Jerome Iginla has not won any Stanley Cups. If he is getting in based on International Play, then that opens the boat to a lot more players and why they are not in … most notably Paul Henderson.
Jerome Iginla was a good player, no doubt about it, 1300 points is nothing to sneeze at in the NHL, add in his 2 Richard Trophies, his Pearson, and his Art Ross (I know he won a Clancy and a Messier too .. Intangible Trophies are a rant for another day) and that's a fine career, but not a career more deserving of a Hall Induction over other players waiting. Jerome Iginla is in the Hall right now, for one reason, and one reason only … he is a popular Canadian player.
Doug Wilson and Kevin Lowe are joke inductees at this juncture. They are in because in their executive careers, they have managed to find 14 friends.
Tell me they are more deserving than Alexander Mogilny. Mogilny is a member of the Triple Gold club, which has always been the standard for Hall Inductions for most International players. Do you think Igor Larionov is in the Hall of Fame based on 644 career NHL points?? Mogilny, not only was he THE FIRST NHL draftee to defect from the USSR (a feat on its own), he has a career PPG of 1.04 (Iginla's is 0.84), and he would have won a Richard Trophy if it existed in 1993. (and he has an Intangible Trophy as well)
Yes Jerome Iginla is a HOFer. But the push to make him a first ballot inductee, IMO, was a bit too much, if they were leaving off players that are also obvious HoFers. If the class was minus Wilson and Lowe, and included Iginla and Mogilny, I'd be a on board with that. But for Mogilny to be waiting since 2009 is the heights of BS.
Pretty soon all of the USA and Canadian women players will be in the HOF, it is really a two team sport still … not sure what they do then
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Post by Tankdriver on Jul 15, 2020 9:30:01 GMT -5
My yearly rant of the NHL Hall of Lame For starters. Why does everyone consider Jerome Iginla an automatic first ballot inductee? For years, players have NOT been getting in because they have not won any Stanley Cups. Jerome Iginla has not won any Stanley Cups. If he is getting in based on International Play, then that opens the boat to a lot more players and why they are not in … most notably Paul Henderson. Jerome Iginla was a good player, no doubt about it, 1300 points is nothing to sneeze at in the NHL, add in his 2 Richard Trophies, his Pearson, and his Art Ross (I know he won a Clancy and a Messier too .. Intangible Trophies are a rant for another day) and that's a fine career, but not a career more deserving of a Hall Induction over other players waiting. Jerome Iginla is in the Hall right now, for one reason, and one reason only … he is a popular Canadian player. Doug Wilson and Kevin Lowe are joke inductees at this juncture. They are in because in their executive careers, they have managed to find 14 friends. Tell me they are more deserving than Alexander Mogilny. Mogilny is a member of the Triple Gold club, which has always been the standard for Hall Inductions for most International players. Do you think Igor Larionov is in the Hall of Fame based on 644 career NHL points?? Mogilny, not only was he THE FIRST NHL draftee to defect from the USSR (a feat on its own), he has a career PPG of 1.04 (Iginla's is 0.84), and he would have won a Richard Trophy if it existed in 1993. (and he has an Intangible Trophy as well) Yes Jerome Iginla is a HOFer. But the push to make him a first ballot inductee, IMO, was a bit too much, if they were leaving off players that are also obvious HoFers. If the class was minus Wilson and Lowe, and included Iginla and Mogilny, I'd be a on board with that. But for Mogilny to be waiting since 2009 is the heights of BS. Pretty soon all of the USA and Canadian women players will be in the HOF, it is really a two team sport still … not sure what they do then I agree. What are your thoughts on Alfreddson? I think he should of been in by now. |
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Post by franko on Jul 15, 2020 10:49:06 GMT -5
My yearly rant of the NHL Hall of Lame For starters. Why does everyone consider Jerome Iginla an automatic first ballot inductee? For years, players have NOT been getting in because they have not won any Stanley Cups. Jerome Iginla has not won any Stanley Cups. If he is getting in based on International Play, then that opens the boat to a lot more players and why they are not in … most notably Paul Henderson. Jerome Iginla was a good player, no doubt about it, 1300 points is nothing to sneeze at in the NHL, add in his 2 Richard Trophies, his Pearson, and his Art Ross (I know he won a Clancy and a Messier too .. Intangible Trophies are a rant for another day) and that's a fine career, but not a career more deserving of a Hall Induction over other players waiting. Jerome Iginla is in the Hall right now, for one reason, and one reason only … he is a popular Canadian player. Doug Wilson and Kevin Lowe are joke inductees at this juncture. They are in because in their executive careers, they have managed to find 14 friends. Tell me they are more deserving than Alexander Mogilny. Mogilny is a member of the Triple Gold club, which has always been the standard for Hall Inductions for most International players. Do you think Igor Larionov is in the Hall of Fame based on 644 career NHL points?? Mogilny, not only was he THE FIRST NHL draftee to defect from the USSR (a feat on its own), he has a career PPG of 1.04 (Iginla's is 0.84), and he would have won a Richard Trophy if it existed in 1993. (and he has an Intangible Trophy as well) Yes Jerome Iginla is a HOFer. But the push to make him a first ballot inductee, IMO, was a bit too much, if they were leaving off players that are also obvious HoFers. If the class was minus Wilson and Lowe, and included Iginla and Mogilny, I'd be a on board with that. But for Mogilny to be waiting since 2009 is the heights of BS. Pretty soon all of the USA and Canadian women players will be in the HOF, it is really a two team sport still … not sure what they do then I agree. What are your thoughts on Alfreddson? I think he should of been in by now. ah, the yearly popularity contest. iirc the first "H" is supposed to stand for "Hockey", not "the brass' NHL favourites plus a few scattered other favourites" . . . but what do I know? this is Alfreddson's first year of eligibility and with a limited number of inductees there's no way he could have made it in, his career compared to Wilson's and Lowe's.  |
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Post by Skilly on Jul 15, 2020 13:31:53 GMT -5
My yearly rant of the NHL Hall of Lame For starters. Why does everyone consider Jerome Iginla an automatic first ballot inductee? For years, players have NOT been getting in because they have not won any Stanley Cups. Jerome Iginla has not won any Stanley Cups. If he is getting in based on International Play, then that opens the boat to a lot more players and why they are not in … most notably Paul Henderson. Jerome Iginla was a good player, no doubt about it, 1300 points is nothing to sneeze at in the NHL, add in his 2 Richard Trophies, his Pearson, and his Art Ross (I know he won a Clancy and a Messier too .. Intangible Trophies are a rant for another day) and that's a fine career, but not a career more deserving of a Hall Induction over other players waiting. Jerome Iginla is in the Hall right now, for one reason, and one reason only … he is a popular Canadian player. Doug Wilson and Kevin Lowe are joke inductees at this juncture. They are in because in their executive careers, they have managed to find 14 friends. Tell me they are more deserving than Alexander Mogilny. Mogilny is a member of the Triple Gold club, which has always been the standard for Hall Inductions for most International players. Do you think Igor Larionov is in the Hall of Fame based on 644 career NHL points?? Mogilny, not only was he THE FIRST NHL draftee to defect from the USSR (a feat on its own), he has a career PPG of 1.04 (Iginla's is 0.84), and he would have won a Richard Trophy if it existed in 1993. (and he has an Intangible Trophy as well) Yes Jerome Iginla is a HOFer. But the push to make him a first ballot inductee, IMO, was a bit too much, if they were leaving off players that are also obvious HoFers. If the class was minus Wilson and Lowe, and included Iginla and Mogilny, I'd be a on board with that. But for Mogilny to be waiting since 2009 is the heights of BS. Pretty soon all of the USA and Canadian women players will be in the HOF, it is really a two team sport still … not sure what they do then I agree. What are your thoughts on Alfreddson? I think he should of been in by now. Well, seeing as you asked let's review the curious case of Daniel Alfredsson! No Cups. Calder Trophy winner King Clancy Winner Mark Messier winner Olympic Gold Medal 0.93 PPG 124 playoff games, 100 points (Iginla has 81 playoff games and 68 points) He has a few fluffy distinctions as well to pad the resume First European Captain to play in the NHL finals Scored the first shootout goal in NHL history Alfredsson was eligible to be elected in 2017, and on the surface it would appear that he is just as deserving as Iginla based on NHL play. Iginla gets the edge in International play playing on powerhouse Team Canada's where he got 22 points in 36 games. (4 golds) and a gold in WJC. Alfredsson has 74 points in 88 games (1 gold, 3 silver, 3 bronze). Alfredsson did not play in the WJCs I'd be more happy seeing Alfredsson, Mogilny and Iginla going in, based on very similar careers … then just selecting the good ol Canadian Boy EDIT So let's review who got in over Molgilny and Alfredsson in recent memory 2019 - Carbonneau, Nedomansky, Zubov 2018 - Yakushev 2017 - Andreychuk, Kariya, Recchi |
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Post by franko on Jul 15, 2020 15:19:49 GMT -5
Alfredsson was eligible to be elected in 2017 oops. |
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Post by CentreHice on Jul 15, 2020 19:49:01 GMT -5
Great to see the case for Provost. Biggest oversight of the Hall, IMO. |
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