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Post by PTH on Aug 15, 2020 16:50:01 GMT -5
I'm having issues with a new pump I installed at the family cottage and am quickly running out of ideas...
1/2 hp, about 15 feet vertical, all primed and no water coming from the lake. I've reprimed it multiple times. Check valve is installed and foot valve as well. Piping between pressure tank, pump and cottage pipes is solid, a few very minor leaks (5 drops per minute or less).
I fear the underground rubber pipe has cracked and I'm only getting air because of that... but before I act on that, I'd like to be sure...
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Post by Cranky on Aug 15, 2020 22:08:20 GMT -5
Dumb question....but how do you know its pumping? 0r wired properly? Or the impeller is turning?
It wouldn't be the first time on impeller spat its key. (Key as in keyway slot). You will get noise...and a ruined shift.
KISS....start with basics. Once you establish that it's actually a pump and running in the right direction, then prime it. If you got nothing, then the prime is dumping into the lake...or not picking up.
Is the pickup IN the lake? Is it clear? Or do you have an expensive vacuum pump? The impellers have too much clearance to establish any meaningful vacuum so you will never know.
I don't have more then that. It's not very deep so there shouldn't be problems priming it. But...
I had a 50 meter deep, 15 hp pump in the old country. It drove me to enjoy moonshine...
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Post by PTH on Aug 15, 2020 22:44:36 GMT -5
Dumb question....but how do you know its pumping? 0r wired properly? Or the impeller is turning? It wouldn't be the first time on impeller spat its key. (Key as in keyway slot). You will get noise...and a ruined shift. KISS....start with basics. Once you establish that it's actually a pump and running in the right direction, then prime it. If you got nothing, then the prime is dumping into the lake...or not picking up. Is the pickup IN the lake? Is it clear? Or do you have an expensive vacuum pump? The impellers have too much clearance to establish any meaningful vacuum so you will never know. I don't have more then that. It's not very deep so there shouldn't be problems priming it. But... I had a 50 meter deep, 15 hp pump in the old country. It drove me to enjoy moonshine... -it's creating pressure, but only air pressure since no water is being pulled up. -pickup is in the lake, seemed fine a few days ago, will check it again tomorrow Got some answers off a facebook group, but nothing that makes me think I was looking at the wrong places beforehand... |
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Post by Cranky on Aug 16, 2020 2:34:17 GMT -5
Creating pressure? Air pressure? At the outlet? You shouldn't have any if there are no restrictions forward of the outlet.
Unless you mean vacuum at the inlet...which means you got restrictions on the line. I would be really surprised if you have a vacuum guage on the inlet.
Think about it....you need a vacuum to get to the water column and then the outflow should have no pressure if you are dumping it at the outlet. If you are creating air pressure from a fairly loose impeller, then you got a "closed" system forward of the outlet. Any vacuum you are creating is limited by the opposing pressure you are creating.
Water pump impellers are not tight fitting by design. You don't want small particles to grind the impeller or the housing. Any small air pressure they create should barely register because it will simply escape back from around the impeller clearances.
Open the outlet and report back...if you got soaked, you problem is forward of the outlet. If you didn't get soaked, then you need to get soaked by checking the screen, pipe and check valve in the lake. Either way, there is wetness in your future....
Also....if your check valve is leaking, you will lose your water column. It's likely a simple ball and seat. Any trapped debry/sediment will keep the ball from seating. Worse, too much sediment can clog the flow around the ball. I hope you designed a union for quick dismantling otherwise more wetness in your future...
BTW...you should have a T with a ball valve to zero any backpressure at the outlet, then when you establish flow, close it. My experience from pumping into irrigation pipes.....trap water in them and when it's time to irrigate, open pipe valve and side drum valve to let it flow back to fill down to the check valve (which always leaked to a certain degree), then start pump. Let drum get filled with water then close side valve to direct all flow to pipes. Voila, lots of oranges to be had. Your mileage may vary but the principles don't....
(cripes, these are 30 to 50 year old memories!)
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Post by Cranky on Aug 16, 2020 3:42:53 GMT -5
PTH...back to basics of well pumps.
You need a check valve to trap a column of water. Then when the pump starts, it pulls the WATER that is trapped by the check valve and that water creates a vacuum behind it to pull the well water. If it pulls a bit of air, fine, it should grab the trapped water column. Unless it's a very shallow well, there simply won't be enough air vacuum to pull the water.
Remember the loose tolerance that makes a difference for air? It means nothing for water because the water forms a half assed seal and the draw is much more powerful.
Plus....
The closer the check valve is to the source, the quicker and higher the vacuum to the well water. In fact, if the check valve is in the water table and there is no leaks, you have a perfect loop.
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Post by GNick99 on Aug 17, 2020 15:46:35 GMT -5
I'm having issues with a new pump I installed at the family cottage and am quickly running out of ideas... 1/2 hp, about 15 feet vertical, all primed and no water coming from the lake. I've reprimed it multiple times. Check valve is installed and foot valve as well. Piping between pressure tank, pump and cottage pipes is solid, a few very minor leaks (5 drops per minute or less). I fear the underground rubber pipe has cracked and I'm only getting air because of that... but before I act on that, I'd like to be sure... I put one in back on March. Must be a fluke because it went well. I was happy when pressure guage started to pump up. I was desperate there for awhile. It was at start of shutdown of Covid. At a remote location and no plumber were working except on emergency. Watched youtube videos was helpful. Manager at home hardware store gave me a few tips also. |
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Post by PTH on Aug 31, 2020 19:43:25 GMT -5
I'm having issues with a new pump I installed at the family cottage and am quickly running out of ideas... 1/2 hp, about 15 feet vertical, all primed and no water coming from the lake. I've reprimed it multiple times. Check valve is installed and foot valve as well. Piping between pressure tank, pump and cottage pipes is solid, a few very minor leaks (5 drops per minute or less). I fear the underground rubber pipe has cracked and I'm only getting air because of that... but before I act on that, I'd like to be sure... I put one in back on March. Must be a fluke because it went well. I was happy when pressure guage started to pump up. I was desperate there for awhile. It was at start of shutdown of Covid. At a remote location and no plumber were working except on emergency. Watched youtube videos was helpful. Manager at home hardware store gave me a few tips also. Youtube is great for copy-paste type installations, but I'm debugging a broken system. Turns out the feeder tube that goes to the lake has completely collapsed under the weight of rock and soil above. I'm essentially rebuilding it all from scratch. |
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Post by PTH on Aug 31, 2020 20:09:43 GMT -5
PTH...back to basics of well pumps. You need a check valve to trap a column of water. Then when the pump starts, it pulls the WATER that is trapped by the check valve and that water creates a vacuum behind it to pull the well water. If it pulls a bit of air, fine, it should grab the trapped water column. Unless it's a very shallow well, there simply won't be enough air vacuum to pull the water. Remember the loose tolerance that makes a difference for air? It means nothing for water because the water forms a half assed seal and the draw is much more powerful. Plus.... The closer the check valve is to the source, the quicker and higher the vacuum to the well water. In fact, if the check valve is in the water table and there is no leaks, you have a perfect loop. Your first post went into more detail than I can understand, but I'm with you here. In my case, the tube is toast, and my attempts at patching something together had too many air leaks so I was just sucking in air. |
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Post by Cranky on Aug 31, 2020 21:04:03 GMT -5
Your first post went into more detail than I can understand, but I'm with you here. In my case, the tube is toast, and my attempts at patching something together had too many air leaks so I was just sucking in air. Water will always "lose out" to an air leak. You can get away with a small hole, but even that will degrade the pump. Go with an ABS tube and a simple check valve as close to the water as possible. You "should" have a means to remove the tube from the water and drain it if it's likely to freeze. In northern Quebec, that could be very deep, as much as 6 feet down. To not worry, you need to be drawing from a pretty deep lake and then keep the pipes buried several feet down until you come up INSIDE the house. You are almost better off with a well because you are going straight down. From what I saw from our friends who have cottages in Quebec (and Ontario), a lot of the stuff was done by "this is what our neighbor did", or "this is how we do it" from the contractors, which is kind of ok, but you need to have knowledge of water tables and freezing depths to actually engineer a robust, year round system. Months into minus 20's and you'd be surprised how thick the ice can get. Anywho...ask away, I will try to help to the best of my understanding and knowledge. |
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Post by PTH on Aug 31, 2020 22:25:18 GMT -5
It's a cottage, so year-round, 100% reliability isn't needed.
The likely outcome is a near-surface tube with a heating element, heading into the basement pump room, which is heated year round. Frost is about 18inches of ice, so if I have the tube in 3 feet of water or more, I should be ok.
Strangely, a tube can freeze with no ill effects, as long as at least one end is open.
I'm going to have a check valve in the pump room and a foot valve in the lake.
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Post by Cranky on Sept 1, 2020 0:28:31 GMT -5
Huh? Only 18"? My frost line cab be two plus feet in southern Ontario. A few years back, a pylon that was only down 24" heaved. We had about a month of -12 to -23 and the frost reached it. When I went ice racing in Quebec, way back in the late 70s, I'm pretty sure the waited for 24" plus of ice on a deep lake. It was near Quebec City.
Recheck your frost line info.
There is no problem with surface mounting as long as can run out the water. Pipes break when they are full of water and the ice expands and cracks them. An open end on a sloping pipe should empty it.
Burying pipes needs $$$ for a backhoe. Upside is if the house is 10' above the water line, opening pipe on top will drop the water to lake level and no need for winter heating...and power failures. Also zero concerns about freezing pipes.
Aren't cottages "fun"? When we were in Montreal our friends wanted us to buy a place out in Sainte Agathe. We declined because...more maintenance and costs for a fes weeks of use. So we used theirs in exchange for.....compliments. lol
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Post by GNick99 on Sept 2, 2020 19:37:09 GMT -5
I put one in back on March. Must be a fluke because it went well. I was happy when pressure guage started to pump up. I was desperate there for awhile. It was at start of shutdown of Covid. At a remote location and no plumber were working except on emergency. Watched youtube videos was helpful. Manager at home hardware store gave me a few tips also. Youtube is great for copy-paste type installations, but I'm debugging a broken system. Turns out the feeder tube that goes to the lake has completely collapsed under the weight of rock and soil above. I'm essentially rebuilding it all from scratch. You get decent water out of the lake. Mine is discoloured. We don't drink it. Could be ok though. Never tested |
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Post by GNick99 on Sept 2, 2020 19:39:22 GMT -5
Huh? Only 18"? My frost line cab be two plus feet in southern Ontario. A few years back, a pylon that was only down 24" heaved. We had about a month of -12 to -23 and the frost reached it. When I went ice racing in Quebec, way back in the late 70s, I'm pretty sure the waited for 24" plus of ice on a deep lake. It was near Quebec City. Recheck your frost line info. There is no problem with surface mounting as long as can run out the water. Pipes break when they are full of water and the ice expands and cracks them. An open end on a sloping pipe should empty it. Burying pipes needs $$$ for a backhoe. Upside is if the house is 10' above the water line, opening pipe on top will drop the water to lake level and no need for winter heating...and power failures. Also zero concerns about freezing pipes. Aren't cottages "fun"? When we were in Montreal our friends wanted us to buy a place out in Sainte Agathe. We declined because...more maintenance and costs for a fes weeks of use. So we used theirs in exchange for.....compliments. lol Runs some money. I was born outdoors person. Had many years of fun there. Kids growing up. Real estate is high here. I probably could make major coin on it. But not sure as never kept track what I spent over the years. |
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