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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2020 19:23:24 GMT -5
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Post by seventeen on Sept 22, 2020 20:05:33 GMT -5
The thing I dislike the most about Tortorella (and I'm sure other coaches are the same way) is his insistence on players blocking shots. You wonder how much damage is done by pucks and by drugs designed to reduce the pain caused by pucks. Something that hits an unprotected area at 90+ mph does not just 'sting'. If blocking shots deliberately was not allowed, yeah you might have a few more goals scored (horrors!) but players would be healthier during their hockey careers and afterward. Can they not design a better puck that acts like an otter box?
PS, blocking shots with a stick would be ok, just not allowing players to get their bodies deliberately in the way. You could figure it out somehow.
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Post by Cranky on Sept 22, 2020 21:54:58 GMT -5
If hockey player think they have it tough, then stay away from football. Or rugby.
As for blocking shots, they can wear ankle guards, they can larger shin pads with extended legs high gloves, etc....but most want to take their chances.
I sympathize but only to a certain extent. They are paid on a different level then mere humans so the risk reward is there.
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Post by folatre on Sept 23, 2020 7:05:16 GMT -5
Hockey is downright brutal. The possibilities for being severely injured are numerous. Obviously the stakes are high in terms of winning and losing, as well as the dollars on the table for players, coaches and clubs alike. It is not too difficult to understand why there is an engrained mentality centered on playing with pain.
The role of team doctors is troubling because one would presume given their profession that they would hold themselves to a higher standard. How is it possible that team trainers basically facilitate the unregulated use of toradol and the doctors have nothing to say about such practices?
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Post by jkr on Sept 23, 2020 7:48:34 GMT -5
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Post by seventeen on Sept 23, 2020 12:58:30 GMT -5
The role of team doctors is troubling because one would presume given their profession that they would hold themselves to a higher standard. How is it possible that team trainers basically facilitate the unregulated use of toradol and the doctors have nothing to say about such practices? It's called 'selling out' folatre and has been around forever. That is not new to any of us, but it continues to be really disheartening. In the US right now, there are politicians willing to sell out their country for some personal benefit despite being a 'seat of democracy'. |
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Post by frozone on Sept 23, 2020 14:13:21 GMT -5
The hockey schedule is an absolute killer. It is guaranteed to wear down the body, so there is little in the special that surprises me regarding the overreliance on drugs. That being said, I'm pretty miffed to hear that some training staffs may receive bonuses based on player games played. Hopefully that just isn't the case.
Thanks for sharing the documentary, Mattias. Makes me think of the Byfuglien incident in a new light.
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Post by seventeen on Sept 23, 2020 14:17:02 GMT -5
Above all else (and despite what we might like to think of it), sports is a business and to the owners, players are just one of the inputs. You can't allow yourself to run short of the inputs you need for your product. You have to keep machines running as much as you can, without having to replace them.
Amazing how quickly you can de-humanize things, huh?
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Post by Willie Dog on Sept 23, 2020 15:29:49 GMT -5
The role of team doctors is troubling because one would presume given their profession that they would hold themselves to a higher standard. How is it possible that team trainers basically facilitate the unregulated use of toradol and the doctors have nothing to say about such practices? It's called 'selling out' folatre and has been around forever. That is not new to any of us, but it continues to be really disheartening. In the US right now, there are politicians willing to sell out their country for some personal benefit despite being a 'seat of democracy'. In a league where the players association has some clout, it would make sense for the players association to pay for the doctors and instead of being team physicians they would be player physicians... and act in the best interests of the player... |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2020 21:43:26 GMT -5
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Post by Cranky on Sept 24, 2020 0:28:06 GMT -5
Above all else (and despite what we might like to think of it), sports is a business and to the owners, players are just one of the inputs. You can't allow yourself to run short of the inputs you need for your product. You have to keep machines running as much as you can, without having to replace them. Amazing how quickly you can de-humanize things, huh? Utterly disagree. The players aren't some disadvantaged group who must play to put food on the table. They are part and parcel of a lucrative industry which they freely and lucrativly join and benefit from. That is true of all major sports. Billy-Bob Gagnon will work three lifetimes just to make one year of the average NHL salary of 2.78 million USD. I repeat...the AVERAGE salary is 2.78 MILLION. Unless you can show me some law, contract or iron leg chains that turns players into peasants at the mercy of the Lords, I'm not buying the "poor little players and evil rich owners" meme. |
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Post by Cranky on Sept 24, 2020 0:53:02 GMT -5
In a league where the players association has some clout, it would make sense for the players association to pay for the doctors and instead of being team physicians they would be player physicians... and act in the best interests of the player... NHL contracts do not supercede Canadian labor laws. No player can be forced to "go back to work" while injured. On the other hand, players are are constantly getting physical abuse that is parcel to their working conditions. While they can legally claim that their injuries keep them from playing, in practice, they are paid millions and injury/pain is part of that enormous compensation. So...yes, they can get their own doctors to declare when they are fit to work and the Canadian labour laws will back them.....but how long will it be before the salaries reflect the 20 game season that are "100% pain free"? Further to this, while we can be all woke and caring in this thread, are we ready to see a 20 game season after season from Price for 10 million a year? Is Price prepared to get 2 million to play "only at 100% pain free"? Are we ready to see 30 man rosters with liberal call, ups from the AHL? How about on any given game, only 20% of the regular NHLers playing with journeyman and beer leaguers filling the game roster? Just being real here.... |
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Post by GNick99 on Sept 24, 2020 6:40:24 GMT -5
Above all else (and despite what we might like to think of it), sports is a business and to the owners, players are just one of the inputs. You can't allow yourself to run short of the inputs you need for your product. You have to keep machines running as much as you can, without having to replace them. Amazing how quickly you can de-humanize things, huh? Utterly disagree. The players aren't some disadvantaged group who must play to put food on the table. They are part and parcel of a lucrative industry which they freely and lucrativly join and benefit from. That is true of all major sports. Billy-Bob Gagnon will work three lifetimes just to make one year of the average NHL salary of 2.78 million USD. I repeat...the AVERAGE salary is 2.78 MILLION. Unless you can show me some law, contract or iron leg chains that turns players into peasants at the mercy of the Lords, I'm not buying the "poor little players and evil rich owners" meme. Tenacity to agree |
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Post by jkr on Sept 24, 2020 6:52:53 GMT -5
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Post by Skilly on Sept 24, 2020 7:49:59 GMT -5
I have to somewhat agree with Cranky
The players are not being forced to sign their contracts.
The players are not being forced to play.
The decision to take the drugs is the players, even under duress or coercion, no one is tying them down and making them take it and sending them out to play
Another aspect of this, is that the NHL is the only league where contracts are guaranteed. If Billy-Bob Gagnon gets hurt in the course of his job, he falls back onto Workers Comp. If an NHL player gets hurt doing his job (or not doing his job sometimes too) they still get every penny of their mutli-year multi-million dollar contracts.
While I think it is wrong that they feel they have to do this … is there anyone amongst us who wouldn't take 10 million dollars, knowing we will have headaches, or kidney issues, or a limp 10 years from now?
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Post by Willie Dog on Sept 24, 2020 22:19:14 GMT -5
In a league where the players association has some clout, it would make sense for the players association to pay for the doctors and instead of being team physicians they would be player physicians... and act in the best interests of the player... NHL contracts do not supercede Canadian labor laws. No player can be forced to "go back to work" while injured. On the other hand, players are are constantly getting physical abuse that is parcel to their working conditions. While they can legally claim that their injuries keep them from playing, in practice, they are paid millions and injury/pain is part of that enormous compensation. So...yes, they can get their own doctors to declare when they are fit to work and the Canadian labour laws will back them.....but how long will it be before the salaries reflect the 20 game season that are "100% pain free"? Further to this, while we can be all woke and caring in this thread, are we ready to see a 20 game season after season from Price for 10 million a year? Is Price prepared to get 2 million to play "only at 100% pain free"? Are we ready to see 30 man rosters with liberal call, ups from the AHL? How about on any given game, only 20% of the regular NHLers playing with journeyman and beer leaguers filling the game roster? Just being real here.... Maybe if Carey played 20 games in a season we could have more playoff success 😁 |
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Post by seventeen on Sept 25, 2020 0:47:00 GMT -5
Above all else (and despite what we might like to think of it), sports is a business and to the owners, players are just one of the inputs. You can't allow yourself to run short of the inputs you need for your product. You have to keep machines running as much as you can, without having to replace them. Amazing how quickly you can de-humanize things, huh? Utterly disagree. The players aren't some disadvantaged group who must play to put food on the table. They are part and parcel of a lucrative industry which they freely and lucrativly join and benefit from. That is true of all major sports. Billy-Bob Gagnon will work three lifetimes just to make one year of the average NHL salary of 2.78 million USD. I repeat...the AVERAGE salary is 2.78 MILLION. Unless you can show me some law, contract or iron leg chains that turns players into peasants at the mercy of the Lords, I'm not buying the "poor little players and evil rich owners" meme. I re-read my post and didn't see anything referring to the players or what I thought of them. My focus was purely on the owners, and because it is a business, I don't think they see players as human beings...just another input into their manufacturing (entertainment) process. If a machine isn't working right you fix it or replace it. It's unnecessary to have any feelings toward a machine (other than being really ticked off when it breaks down). What do I think of Players taking pain killers? It's dumb. Necessary perhaps for their livelihood, but as in so many things in life, I don't believe they have all the information and all the costs at their fingertips before they make a decision. When the consequences are a long ways down the road and nebulous, the true costs are minimized. If the owners shared in those costs later in life, different decisions might be made. Here's an example of something that bugs the hell out of me and is completely unrelated to sports but is analogous to the above point. I drive down the highway and hit rough pavement, cracks, and grooves in the lane. I know it's caused by logging trucks and freight trucks and those guys probably pay larger licencing fees than I do. But I bet they don't pay anywhere near enough the cost to repave or repair that road. The general population does. Maybe someone can argue that food and paper and lumber costs are lower as a result, but I doubt it. But roads don't break right after a truck uses it. It takes a few years and then it has to be repaired/replaced/repaved. And we pay. Not the guy causing the problem. The owners don't pay for health issues incurred by players 2 decades later, but they helped cause them. Just my 2 bits. |
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Post by Skilly on Sept 25, 2020 13:33:39 GMT -5
Utterly disagree. The players aren't some disadvantaged group who must play to put food on the table. They are part and parcel of a lucrative industry which they freely and lucrativly join and benefit from. That is true of all major sports. Billy-Bob Gagnon will work three lifetimes just to make one year of the average NHL salary of 2.78 million USD. I repeat...the AVERAGE salary is 2.78 MILLION. Unless you can show me some law, contract or iron leg chains that turns players into peasants at the mercy of the Lords, I'm not buying the "poor little players and evil rich owners" meme. I re-read my post and didn't see anything referring to the players or what I thought of them. My focus was purely on the owners, and because it is a business, I don't think they see players as human beings...just another input into their manufacturing (entertainment) process. If a machine isn't working right you fix it or replace it. It's unnecessary to have any feelings toward a machine (other than being really ticked off when it breaks down). What do I think of Players taking pain killers? It's dumb. Necessary perhaps for their livelihood, but as in so many things in life, I don't believe they have all the information and all the costs at their fingertips before they make a decision. When the consequences are a long ways down the road and nebulous, the true costs are minimized. If the owners shared in those costs later in life, different decisions might be made. Here's an example of something that bugs the hell out of me and is completely unrelated to sports but is analogous to the above point. I drive down the highway and hit rough pavement, cracks, and grooves in the lane. I know it's caused by logging trucks and freight trucks and those guys probably pay larger licencing fees than I do. But I bet they don't pay anywhere near enough the cost to repave or repair that road. The general population does. Maybe someone can argue that food and paper and lumber costs are lower as a result, but I doubt it. But roads don't break right after a truck uses it. It takes a few years and then it has to be repaired/replaced/repaved. And we pay. Not the guy causing the problem. The owners don't pay for health issues incurred by players 2 decades later, but they helped cause them. Just my 2 bits. But you can do things to extend the life of pavement. Like adding a polymer additive that increases the elasticity and recovery of the asphalt mat, banning studded tires, etc … In the same vein, the players see taking pain killers as a way of extending their shelf life … I bet if the players took an anonymous poll, where the question was "Your contract value(s) will not change over the course of your career, but your career will be 4-6 years without drugs and 10-12 years with drugs. Do you take the drugs knowing the drugs could lead to health issues after your career is over" I bet you 80+% say they will take those drugs |
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Post by Cranky on Sept 25, 2020 13:42:58 GMT -5
Utterly disagree. The players aren't some disadvantaged group who must play to put food on the table. They are part and parcel of a lucrative industry which they freely and lucrativly join and benefit from. That is true of all major sports. Billy-Bob Gagnon will work three lifetimes just to make one year of the average NHL salary of 2.78 million USD. I repeat...the AVERAGE salary is 2.78 MILLION. Unless you can show me some law, contract or iron leg chains that turns players into peasants at the mercy of the Lords, I'm not buying the "poor little players and evil rich owners" meme. I re-read my post and didn't see anything referring to the players or what I thought of them. My focus was purely on the owners, and because it is a business, I don't think they see players as human beings...just another input into their manufacturing (entertainment) process. If a machine isn't working right you fix it or replace it. It's unnecessary to have any feelings toward a machine (other than being really ticked off when it breaks down). What do I think of Players taking pain killers? It's dumb. Necessary perhaps for their livelihood, but as in so many things in life, I don't believe they have all the information and all the costs at their fingertips before they make a decision. When the consequences are a long ways down the road and nebulous, the true costs are minimized. If the owners shared in those costs later in life, different decisions might be made. Here's an example of something that bugs the hell out of me and is completely unrelated to sports but is analogous to the above point. I drive down the highway and hit rough pavement, cracks, and grooves in the lane. I know it's caused by logging trucks and freight trucks and those guys probably pay larger licencing fees than I do. But I bet they don't pay anywhere near enough the cost to repave or repair that road. The general population does. Maybe someone can argue that food and paper and lumber costs are lower as a result, but I doubt it. But roads don't break right after a truck uses it. It takes a few years and then it has to be repaired/replaced/repaved. And we pay. Not the guy causing the problem. The owners don't pay for health issues incurred by players 2 decades later, but they helped cause them. Just my 2 bits. In the first post...you come across as "poor little players and evil owners".....your second post is "evil owners" and "dumb players". Neither is true. The "owners" invested in a product that people want to pay for and the players are fully, utterly and massively informed on the consequences of their actions. To alleviate your complaint, you (and i) should stop watching because you and i are creating the product we see. I'm pretty sure there is no market for extra woke and benign owners who attach lifelong contracts and field teams with 64 year olds. To be clear, there is no "business" without a market, even in the unicorn world of sports. Common sense and The Law of Economics is very clear on this. As for players, I'm also pretty sure they are fully aware of the actions they take. As fully aware as the multimillion dollar checks they cash. There are no "innocents" or "victims" in hockey. From owners to players to the fans that demand a certain product they will pay for, it's a well defined loop of willing participants. As for the roads....sure, trucks should pay by the mile and weight. But of course, your next mattress will cost $200 more for shipping. The next loaf of bread will cost 30 cents more for shipping. The next bag of milk will cost 40 cents more. The next watermelon will cost $1.50 more. Etc. The poor will REALLY get hammered by paying more for every single good they need. Meanwhile, I'll invest in trucking because it's going to get very, very profitable. EDIT....to add something about trucking. As long as it's a minor cost of the product, there will be bulk shipping hidden in the product. If we make trucking bleed for every part of the road infrustructure, there will be a shift to "retail" shipping and charging. Your next loaf of bread will have "shipping" charges through it's entire transport range. From the farm to the grain silo to the trains to the factory to the trucking to get to retail store....EVERY inch of transport will be added as a "shipping charge". Do you have any idea what it costs to get a truck from California with produce on it? Quadruple that when they pay by the weight and mile. Those heads of lettuce will be $2 for produce and $4 for shipping. And the poor will suffer even more. So next time you are on the road....close the radio....put on a solemn face...and thank your God/prophet/SpaghettiMonster for people like moi, Cranky, who fight transport companies for every penny they charge. Thank you. |
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