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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 8, 2020 20:21:52 GMT -5
... they need cap relief I guess ...
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Post by folatre on Dec 8, 2020 21:31:53 GMT -5
Yeah, Vegas is in a serious cap jam. McCrimmon was making massive signings over the off-season, Pietrangelo and Lehner, without really having the slightest idea how to move Fleury is a flat cap world. There is no liquidity in the system right now.
For me Pacioretty is not the problem. Pacioretty's productivity remains strong (66 points in 71 games) and in reality his contract is far from terrible. Signed pre-Covid, $7 million per for a guy who averages 30-31 goals per 82 games played over the course of his whole career was not bad business, in particular taking into account that his contract expires at age 35. Basically, McCrimmon is jammed up because Fleury is immovable unless they retain 50 percent and perhaps even then the Knights would have to throw in an asset of some sort.
If someone wants a left wing who can rifle the puck, they will just sign Hoffman for a season at a lower number AAV than the one that McCrimmon is out there trying to peddle.
I admire Vegas' ownership for the serious commitment to win but I think McCrimmon got a little too cute over the off-season.
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Post by PTH on Dec 9, 2020 2:41:08 GMT -5
For me Pacioretty is not the problem. Well, in todays NHL, you don't need to be the problem to be moved - you need to be movable. I think Pacioretty is essentially one of the rare big money assets they can move without needing to take serious money in return, or without hurting the team too badly. Wingers aren't core pieces. All that being said, I don't expect LV will be thrilled with the return, but if they get a filler-type winger and a pick or prospect, they might be able to get out of their cap crunch. But you're right - when you need to liquidate players who are performing up to expectations on good contracts, it's because you've messed up along the way. |
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Post by Cranky on Dec 9, 2020 9:24:31 GMT -5
Patches for Tatar and Evans. What? WHAT?
I take Tuch and his 4.75 million of their hands for Lehky or Armia. Serious size and solves a right wing need. Then we can watch Tuch the Younger beat them while Tuch the Older pots them. I can see Tuch times ahead......
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Dec 9, 2020 11:44:25 GMT -5
Patches for Tatar and Evans. What? WHAT? I take Tuch and his 4.75 million of their hands for Lehky or Armia. Serious size and solves a right wing need. Then we can watch Tuch the Younger beat them while Tuch the Older pots them. I can see Tuch times ahead...... Pacioretty for Tatar and Bergevin. We can retain 99% of Bergy salary. |
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Post by Tankdriver on Dec 9, 2020 13:05:05 GMT -5
Pacioretty for Byron and Tatar. Vegas can then deal one of the two.
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Post by folatre on Dec 9, 2020 22:10:29 GMT -5
Jeje, no way Pacioretty is Montreal-bound.
I would hold onto Tatar for 2020-21 because he is a major point producer on the line the coach trusts the most, so basically I would let him ride out his contract unless the Habs fall off the cliff in which case obviously trading him would be the right call. -- Byron is a different case because he has no particular affinity with Danault, Suzuiki, or Kotkaniemi so moving him is not really a clear blow to Montreal's aspirations to be highly relevant. If Tatar goes with Danault and Drouin jumps over the boards with Suzuki, then really what the heck is the difference if Lehkonen plays on Kotkaniemi's left wing instead of Byron? Of course, the problem is Byron is exponentially harder to move than Lehkonen based on age, contract and injury history.
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Post by PTH on Dec 9, 2020 22:20:10 GMT -5
... what the heck is the difference if Lehkonen plays on Kotkaniemi's left wing instead of Byron? Of course, the problem is Byron is exponentially harder to move than Lehkonen based on age, contract and injury history. Yup. I have to say, I didn't mind the Byron re-signing at the time, I didn't think his deal would be a troublesome one, and Guy Carbonneau likes to remind viewers the Byron's numbers often haven't been in the 3d/4th line category. If we have to let go of Lehkonen I'll be disappointed though, I really like his game, and I think with the right center he could pot 30. Then again, if he's getting the ice time to score 30, that's not a good thing for the team. |
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Dec 10, 2020 1:08:00 GMT -5
Jeje, no way Pacioretty is Montreal-bound. I would hold onto Tatar for 2020-21 because he is a major point producer on the line the coach trusts the most, so basically I would let him ride out his contract unless the Habs fall off the cliff in which case obviously trading him would be the right call. -- Byron is a different case because he has no particular affinity with Danault, Suzuiki, or Kotkaniemi so moving him is not really a clear blow to Montreal's aspirations to be highly relevant. If Tatar goes with Danault and Drouin jumps over the boards with Suzuki, then really what the heck is the difference if Lehkonen plays on Kotkaniemi's left wing instead of Byron? Of course, the problem is Byron is exponentially harder to move than Lehkonen based on age, contract and injury history. Tatar has had a great resurgence in Montreal. He is a guy that will help get to the playoffs, but can he help in the playoffs as much? Tough asset to manage, because you can only get value if you trade him at the deadline, but you also want to make the playoffs and go at least a few rounds. Picks and/or kids in return don’t get you there. Byron is starting to be more and more the contract that makes no sense given where the team is heading. In the current FUBAR economic situation, it is also nearly impossible to move. Two really tough asset management challenges for a team shifting to going for it from just treading water in “reset” mode. |
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Post by BadCompany on Dec 10, 2020 9:57:04 GMT -5
Jeje, no way Pacioretty is Montreal-bound. I would hold onto Tatar for 2020-21 because he is a major point producer on the line the coach trusts the most, so basically I would let him ride out his contract unless the Habs fall off the cliff in which case obviously trading him would be the right call. -- Byron is a different case because he has no particular affinity with Danault, Suzuiki, or Kotkaniemi so moving him is not really a clear blow to Montreal's aspirations to be highly relevant. If Tatar goes with Danault and Drouin jumps over the boards with Suzuki, then really what the heck is the difference if Lehkonen plays on Kotkaniemi's left wing instead of Byron? Of course, the problem is Byron is exponentially harder to move than Lehkonen based on age, contract and injury history. Tatar has had a great resurgence in Montreal. He is a guy that will help get to the playoffs, but can he help in the playoffs as much? Tough asset to manage, because you can only get value if you trade him at the deadline, but you also want to make the playoffs and go at least a few rounds. Picks and/or kids in return don’t get you there. Byron is starting to be more and more the contract that makes no sense given where the team is heading. In the current FUBAR economic situation, it is also nearly impossible to move. Two really tough asset management challenges for a team shifting to going for it from just treading water in “reset” mode. A lot of talk about Danault, but Tatar is also a pending UFA, and it's not like we're loaded on left wing. Honestly, I find all this talk about how much depth we now have to be a little overstated. Sure, compared to years past we may have more depth, and yes we have a lot of prospects... but very few of those prospects are available for callups. Ylonen is our only real winger prospect in the AHL and he plays right wing. Maybe Poehling too, if they want to convert him from center. We're only a couple of injuries away from Weal/Belzile/Dauphin... As for Pacioretty, we don't have the cap space to bring him back, not unless we gut our depth so more. Which as I just stated I don't think is as deep as we hope it is. We'd have to dump salary to make it happen, and the only way to do that is to dump NHL players, which again we don't have a lot of. Trade Tatar and Byron to get Pacioretty, and then see Drouin and Anderson go down with injuries? As Scooby-Doo would say, "ruh-roh!" (and of course Bergevin would never bring him back, and I highly doubt Pacioretty would waive his NTC to come back anyways) |
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Post by seventeen on Dec 10, 2020 14:08:14 GMT -5
Jeje, no way Pacioretty is Montreal-bound. Definitely worth a chuckle. Pacioretty could be the answer to a guaranteed Stanley Cup, a 12 year extension for Bergevin, and record sales in hot dogs and he'd still be persona non grata to the management team. |
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Post by seventeen on Dec 10, 2020 14:34:22 GMT -5
Tatar has had a great resurgence in Montreal. He is a guy that will help get to the playoffs, but can he help in the playoffs as much? Tough asset to manage, because you can only get value if you trade him at the deadline, but you also want to make the playoffs and go at least a few rounds. Picks and/or kids in return don’t get you there. Byron is starting to be more and more the contract that makes no sense given where the team is heading. In the current FUBAR economic situation, it is also nearly impossible to move. Two really tough asset management challenges for a team shifting to going for it from just treading water in “reset” mode. A lot of talk about Danault, but Tatar is also a pending UFA, and it's not like we're loaded on left wing. Honestly, I find all this talk about how much depth we now have to be a little overstated. Sure, compared to years past we may have more depth, and yes we have a lot of prospects... but very few of those prospects are available for callups. Ylonen is our only real winger prospect in the AHL and he plays right wing. Maybe Poehling too, if they want to convert him from center. We're only a couple of injuries away from Weal/Belzile/Dauphin... As for Pacioretty, we don't have the cap space to bring him back, not unless we gut our depth so more. Which as I just stated I don't think is as deep as we hope it is. We'd have to dump salary to make it happen, and the only way to do that is to dump NHL players, which again we don't have a lot of. Trade Tatar and Byron to get Pacioretty, and then see Drouin and Anderson go down with injuries? As Scooby-Doo would say, "ruh-roh!" (and of course Bergevin would never bring him back, and I highly doubt Pacioretty would waive his NTC to come back anyways)There are a few bumps in the road for this coming season, besides all the Covid stuff. 1) Weber is 35, Price is 33 and Petry is 33. 2) We're really counting on a linear progression for Suzuki and KK, but that rarely happens. That's not to say they won't take an extra jump upward, but we don't know. 3) I'm surprised at the amount of hype Romanov is getting. I like him a lot as a prospect, but typically management tones down the hype so as not to prime the fan base for any disappointment. That hasn't been the case with Romanov. Management expects him to play regularly and has said so publicly. I think he will play on the top 6, but I find it odd and somewhat uncomfortable for management to be this optimistic. 4) There are question marks in the line-up but the general feeling I get is that the expectations will all fall on the positive side. We have no idea what kind of player Anderson is. He may well be a budding Cam Neely, or he might be a solid 20 goal scorer who drops the gloves. The expectation I'm feeling from others is that he will be closer to Neely than the other. Will he? Neely 'broke out' at age 21. Anderson is 26. Which Drouin is going to show up? Will Byron stay healthy? Will Armia revert to a 10-15 goal guy now that others are taking up his ice time and PP play? How will Danault play with the kids taking up more of his offensive role. Will Julien actually apportion ice time based on merit rather than on whatever algorithm he currently uses? Will any player on the team take the jump to elite status? If not, the the team is loaded with average or above average players but no one who can break down the opposition. Chiarot had a very good year last year. Is that who he is going forward? Or will he revert to the 3rd pairing guy he was in Winnipeg?
There are a lot of questions and uncertainties with the Habs. Tatar should be ok. Danault should be ok. It's their UFA years, and those are usually strong. The short season should help Weber and Price. Those are a few things fans can count on. Over the long term, I think beating Pittsburgh this summer was the worst thing that could have happened to the team, but that too will take time to determine. |
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Post by folatre on Dec 10, 2020 14:58:05 GMT -5
I think that I heard Vegas' owner came out and said they are not trying to trade Pacioretty. Jeje, I suppose that an attorney would say that is different than going on the record saying they were not trying to trade him.
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Post by seventeen on Dec 10, 2020 22:03:00 GMT -5
Just like Bergevin wasn't trying to trade PK or Poile wasn't trying to trade Weber. The coach's vote of confidence. All kisses of death.
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Post by folatre on Dec 11, 2020 16:08:39 GMT -5
The other day I thought that it was kind of weird that Foley bothered to come out and say anything. Logically, would it not have been McCrimmon's place to come out and deny the story if the organization really felt that a denial was needed?
It seems however, based on something Dreger was saying, that there is some unhappiness among Golden Knights players regarding how guys barely get the ink dry on their contracts (Schmidt, Stastny, Fleury, Pacioretty) and management is already busy chasing new big ticket players. Maybe Foley was hearing those grumblings too and maybe that is why he saw fit to speak about the Pacioretty situation.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 16, 2020 9:32:59 GMT -5
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Post by jkr on Dec 16, 2020 9:49:42 GMT -5
Nice find Did. That's funny. |
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Post by jkr on Dec 16, 2020 9:55:33 GMT -5
The other day I thought that it was kind of weird that Foley bothered to come out and say anything. Logically, would it not have been McCrimmon's place to come out and deny the story if the organization really felt that a denial was needed? It seems however, based on something Dreger was saying, that there is some unhappiness among Golden Knights players regarding how guys barely get the ink dry on their contracts (Schmidt, Stastny, Fleury, Pacioretty) and management is already busy chasing new big ticket players. Maybe Foley was hearing those grumblings too and maybe that is why he saw fit to speak about the Pacioretty situation. I think McCrimmon is digging holes for himself. He signs Lehner before he has an option for Fleury. Does he really think his fellow GMs are going to help him out?He's like the kid with the credit card that can't resist that shiny new object, in this case it was Pieterangelo. I don't follow these things with the same scrutiny as some here. Is AP really a big upgrade on Nate Schmidt? |
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Post by Tankdriver on Dec 16, 2020 10:40:46 GMT -5
The other day I thought that it was kind of weird that Foley bothered to come out and say anything. Logically, would it not have been McCrimmon's place to come out and deny the story if the organization really felt that a denial was needed? It seems however, based on something Dreger was saying, that there is some unhappiness among Golden Knights players regarding how guys barely get the ink dry on their contracts (Schmidt, Stastny, Fleury, Pacioretty) and management is already busy chasing new big ticket players. Maybe Foley was hearing those grumblings too and maybe that is why he saw fit to speak about the Pacioretty situation. I think McCrimmon is digging holes for himself. He signs Lehner before he has an option for Fleury. Does he really think his fellow GMs are going to help him out?He's like the kid with the credit card that can't resist that shiny new object, in this case it was Pieterangelo. I don't follow these things with the same scrutiny as some here. Is AP really a big upgrade on Nate Schmidt? Yes. The problem was they shouldn't of signed Lehner. Take that 5 or 5.5 million away and a lot of their issues disappear. They could of signed a Craig Anderson, Mike Smith kind of guy for around 1.5 million to give Fleury a rest. |
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Post by folatre on Dec 17, 2020 9:28:01 GMT -5
I hear you, Tank. And it is not a slight on Lehner. It has been remarkable the way that guy has turned his career around. It is just why would Vegas get involved in the high end of the goalie market during the middle of a pandemic when any half-way smart executive would have known there was no way to get rid of Fleury.
Pietrangelo is clearly a more complete d-man than Schmidt. I get it. But, again, Vegas did not get value for Schmidt, who is a definitely a good second pair guy in the prime of his career. I mean, a third rounder was absolute robbery but that is what happens when you buy the shiniest most expensive toys every season.
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Post by GNick99 on Jan 2, 2021 16:11:34 GMT -5
When rumours we may trade Pacioretty, I offered him to Vegas fans for Glass. He refused, said Glass was untouchable for Patches. Offered me Suzuki and late first instead. Wonder if he regrets that?
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Post by seventeen on Jan 3, 2021 14:40:28 GMT -5
I hear you, Tank. And it is not a slight on Lehner. It has been remarkable the way that guy has turned his career around. It is just why would Vegas get involved in the high end of the goalie market during the middle of a pandemic when any half-way smart executive would have known there was no way to get rid of Fleury. Pietrangelo is clearly a more complete d-man than Schmidt. I get it. But, again, Vegas did not get value for Schmidt, who is a definitely a good second pair guy in the prime of his career. I mean, a third rounder was absolute robbery but that is what happens when you buy the shiniest most expensive toys every season. another really good example of how valuable cap space is. Which brings up the realization that Bergie spent much of his cap space on Anderson and Edmundson and then filling out with Perry Frolik and Toffoli. Edmundson was signed on September 12, while Schmidt was traded to the Canucks on Oct 12th, a month later. What would the Habs defense look like now with Schmidt instead of Edmundson? Sure, there's a $2.5MM CAP difference, but that's not that tough to deal with. Schmidt went for a 3rd rounder. Could we have beaten that?   . It would have taken some patience and for those who would argue that there's no way Berg could have known Vegas would need to move someone out, I beg to differ. GM's are supposed to be tuned into what's happening. He knew Pietrangelo was going to move on and someone would pick him up, almost surely a contending team. CAP space would prove its value at that point. It would have been a gamble. Edmundson - sure thing for a 5th rounder. Schmidt (or some other guy) a gamble but probably cheap as well. Why am I even discussing this as it's clear as hell, Berg goes for the sure thing that is guaranteed to get you no where. The gamble, which would go light years to improving your team gets discarded without a second thought. It's what distinguishes great GM's from the chaff. The downside? We lose out on Edmundson (pitchforks and torches come out --- not). This is another piece to check out as the year goes along...the comparison between Schmidt and Edmundson. Maybe Berg is right, but I'd put money on Schmidt having more of an impact for the Canucks than Edmundson having any for the Habs. But its ok...Schmidt is just a good skating, transition LHD. We don't need one of those. |
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Post by Cranky on Jan 3, 2021 19:40:19 GMT -5
Bbinz wanted a bigger, tougher team, Schmidt didn't do that for us.
What I saw from the Philly team was size and the lack of the Habs to contain them or live in their zone. It wasn't about those superstar on that team...it was about size and toughness.
Edmy brings that...Schmidt doesn't.
It's also the main argument about why he didn't wait to get a "better player for less money". None were available in the 3 million range. He wanted the TPA...not A BPA. T MEANS...toughest.
We diss Bbinz for a lot of things, which he deserves, but in this case, he had a vision for what he wanted to create and went out and did it. In this case I saw the same thing he did. And would take the same route.
Let's see if he's right....
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Post by folatre on Jan 3, 2021 20:28:59 GMT -5
I will give a Bergevin a pass on Schmidt because he made the trade for Edmundson and then convinced Edmundson to sign when no one thought Pietrangelo was leaving St. Louis and that Vegas would land him and thus precipitate a fire sale (man, a third rounder is a puny return) of Schmidt.
The problem with the flat cap probably being in effect for the entirety of this CBA is that it makes having a bunch of middle class players making good pre-Covid coin more than just a mosquito bite issue for clubs. True stars have to get paid. That's just the way it is. Difference makers are rare and special. But I am a little concerned that Seattle might just take a cheap NHLer like Mete or Fleury and get their pricier vets from other clubs, thus leaving Bergevin with this raft of well paid middle class vets (Edmundson, Allen, and Byron to name just three) that no one is going to take off his hands.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 4, 2021 19:10:20 GMT -5
Bbinz wanted a bigger, tougher team, Schmidt didn't do that for us. What I saw from the Philly team was size and the lack of the Habs to contain them or live in their zone. It wasn't about those superstar on that team...it was about size and toughness. Edmy brings that...Schmidt doesn't. It's also the main argument about why he didn't wait to get a "better player for less money". None were available in the 3 million range. He wanted the TPA...not A BPA. T MEANS...toughest. We diss Bbinz for a lot of things, which he deserves, but in this case, he had a vision for what he wanted to create and went out and did it. In this case I saw the same thing he did. And would take the same route. Let's see if he's right.... Do you have MBvid-19 bud??? You been singing his praises lately... are u ok? |
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Post by Cranky on Jan 4, 2021 19:12:10 GMT -5
Bbinz wanted a bigger, tougher team, Schmidt didn't do that for us. What I saw from the Philly team was size and the lack of the Habs to contain them or live in their zone. It wasn't about those superstar on that team...it was about size and toughness. Edmy brings that...Schmidt doesn't. It's also the main argument about why he didn't wait to get a "better player for less money". None were available in the 3 million range. He wanted the TPA...not A BPA. T MEANS...toughest. We diss Bbinz for a lot of things, which he deserves, but in this case, he had a vision for what he wanted to create and went out and did it. In this case I saw the same thing he did. And would take the same route. Let's see if he's right.... Do you have MBvid-19 bud??? You been singing his praises lately... are u ok? BBINZ STOLE MY BRAIN!!!!! |
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Post by GNick99 on Jan 6, 2021 10:19:22 GMT -5
I picked Pacioretty in fantasy pool have with 10 buddies. Got him in 5th round. I thought it was good pickup.
I didn't select until 8th overall. So, I never had a shot at a Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid type. My first pick was Tampa goalie. He was first goalie picked. I figure in a weak division he may shine. Almost took Isles goalie because they play so well structure in front of him. But they in tough division.
I got Drouin as my last pick. I figured with Suzuki he played well at end of playoffs. If Anderson plays on their line could be homerun as last pick. Weber I picked up. He's usually good for 15 goals. My rookie I rolled the dice with Robertson. Wish I went with Cozens now.
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