Our Canadian Debt "solution"

[Cranky]

Excellent article in of all places, The Toronto Star.

This is exactly what I thought was going to happen. Also, this meshes with the obscene future level $170 per ton "carbon tax" which is set to force inflate everything in sight....while pouring 10's of BILLIONS into federal coffers.

Think of it this way, in winter, your middle class home will cost you over a thousand a month in electricity and gas. Then add another $2,000 to $3,000 a year extra to run your car. What will be literally hidden is several thousand of extra cost per person as everybody increases their prices to keep up with skyrocketing energy costs.

Net result....to be absolutely clear here, this isn't about the enviroment, this is...FORCED HYPER INFLATION BY EXPLODING ENERGY PRICES MASQUARADING AS "ENVIROMENTAL JUSTICE"

If you dare complain about the inflation caused by those massive increases, then they will cludgeon anyone with "are you a denier? Do you hater? Do you hate our children and their future?".

Sock Boy full intention is to wipe out your savings...while freezing you to the stone ages.

You've been warned....it's happening now and ramping up hard year after year.

Canada’s debt-to-GDP ratio is alarming. What happened the last time we were in this situation?

By Russell NapierContributor

It is a truth far from universally recognized that much of human endeavour is the pursuit of the right answer but to the wrong question.

Human beings hate uncertainty, so we tend to ask questions to which we can provide somewhat certain answers. We would all benefit instead from asking the right questions and accepting that, in a world of uncertainty, all we can hope to get are good answers. Fortunately, in investment and business, good answers are usually enough. Today in a period of huge structural change it is particularly easy to seek the right answers to the wrong questions.

There are often many right questions for those assessing the financial future, but the crucial one for all of us today is, “How are our record high debt-to-GDP ratios to be reduced?” You don’t need the right answer to that question to plan for the future. You just need a good answer. To answer that question about the future we need to answer this question about the past: What happened the last time we were in this situation?

We have been here before. At the end of June 2020 the world total non-financial debt-to-GDP reached 266 per cent. That is to say that, when we add the debt of the government, the debt of households and the debt of non-financial corporations it was 2.66 times the size of the world’s annual economic activity. Total debt excludes the debt of the financial sector as it is assumed to lend only to the other three sectors and we don’t want to double-count debt. Canada’s total non-financial debt-to-GDP is considerably worse than the global average; at a massive 343 per cent it is one of the highest in the world.

We do not have comprehensive data for world private sector debt going back to the Second World War, the last time debt burdens were very high relative to GDP. We do have these private sector debt levels for the United States from 1952, when total government debt was marginally higher than its 1945 level. That the U.S. total non-financial debt-to-GDP ratio was just 121 per cent in 1952, after government borrowing had rocketed to fight the Great Depression and then the war, puts our current world total debt level, at 266 per cent of GDP, in alarming context.

Canada’s government debt at the end of the Second World War was just below 160 per cent of GDP. Although we don’t have the data, it is not possible that the country’s private sector debt-to-GDP ratio in 1945 would have been so high as to push Canada’s total debt burden anywhere near its current 343 per cent of GDP level. The key problem is that across most of the developed world government debt to GDP is rocketing higher at a time when private sector debt-to-GDP is mostly well above record highs. The world’s total debt-to-GDP ratio almost certainly exceeds Second World War levels.

There are a limited number of options for policy-makers aiming to reduce very high debt-to-GDP ratios: very high real economic growth, austerity that reduces government debt levels, debt default, hyperinflation and something called financial repression.

While we are likely to have very high real growth as the passing pandemic releases pent-up demand, the ingredients for sustained very high levels of real economic growth are not present. Some countries, such as Canada, have a greater prospect of producing such a positive solution to their debt problem as immigration keeps population growth high. A productivity revolution would also help to create higher real growth but has proved illusive in recent years and it would have to be a boost on the grandest scale to boost real economic growth to the levels required given current levels of total debt-to-GDP.

Post Second World War even releasing the pent-up demand of the private sector was not alone sufficient to produce the high real growth to reduce debt-to-GDP levels. Austerity, attempted by some governments after the Great Financial Crisis, has been socially divisive and seems to be socially and politically unacceptable. The problem with debt default is that one person’s liabilities are another person’s assets and the writeoff risks major bankruptcies that would reduce growth. Hyperinflation may be tried, or arrive through policy error, but all hyperinflations have created a level of social dislocation that will deter politicians from choosing this option.

Post Second World War excessive debt burdens were reduced by financial repression and that is the policy choice we should expect, given our current circumstances.

In its simplest form a financial repression involves the creation of much higher inflation, but not hyperinflation, while preventing a rise in either short-term or long-term interest rates. The cost of debt remains low while the economy, measured in nominal terms, grows rapidly and the debt-to-GDP ratio declines. Described so simply it sounds easy to achieve, but capping previously market-determined interest rates involves a major shift along the continuum from market economy towards command economy.

After 1945 this did not entail the creation of a command economy but an economy where the flow of credit and capital allocation was strongly controlled or influenced by the government. The French have a good name for that — dirigisme. That system included significant government control over the savings of the population then held by savings institutions. The net impact was to erode the purchasing power of savers while alleviating the burden of debtors. That is financial repression. That is our future

www.thestar.com/business/opinion/2021/02/01/canadas-debt-to-gdp-ratio-is-alarming-what-happened-the-last-time-we-were-in-this-situation.html

[GNick99]

Feb 1, 2021 8:01:25 GMT -5 Cranky said:

Excellent article in of all places, The Toronto Star.

This is exactly what I thought was going to happen. Also, this meshes with the obscene future level $170 per ton "carbon tax" which is set to force inflate everything in sight....while pouring 10's of BILLIONS into federal coffers.

Think of it this way, in winter, your middle class home will cost you over a thousand a month in electricity and gas. Then add another $2,000 to $3,000 a year extra to run your car. What will be literally hidden is several thousand of extra cost per person as everybody increases their prices to keep up with skyrocketing energy costs.

Net result....to be absolutely clear here, this isn't about the enviroment, this is...FORCED HYPER INFLATION BY EXPLODING ENERGY PRICES MASQUARADING AS "ENVIROMENTAL JUSTICE"

If you dare complain about the inflation caused by those massive increases, then they will cludgeon anyone with "are you a denier? Do you hater? Do you hate our children and their future?".

Sock Boy full intention is to wipe out your savings...while freezing you to the stone ages.

You've been warned....it's happening now and ramping up hard year after year.

Canada’s debt-to-GDP ratio is alarming. What happened the last time we were in this situation?

By Russell NapierContributor

It is a truth far from universally recognized that much of human endeavour is the pursuit of the right answer but to the wrong question.

Human beings hate uncertainty, so we tend to ask questions to which we can provide somewhat certain answers. We would all benefit instead from asking the right questions and accepting that, in a world of uncertainty, all we can hope to get are good answers. Fortunately, in investment and business, good answers are usually enough. Today in a period of huge structural change it is particularly easy to seek the right answers to the wrong questions.

There are often many right questions for those assessing the financial future, but the crucial one for all of us today is, “How are our record high debt-to-GDP ratios to be reduced?” You don’t need the right answer to that question to plan for the future. You just need a good answer. To answer that question about the future we need to answer this question about the past: What happened the last time we were in this situation?

We have been here before. At the end of June 2020 the world total non-financial debt-to-GDP reached 266 per cent. That is to say that, when we add the debt of the government, the debt of households and the debt of non-financial corporations it was 2.66 times the size of the world’s annual economic activity. Total debt excludes the debt of the financial sector as it is assumed to lend only to the other three sectors and we don’t want to double-count debt. Canada’s total non-financial debt-to-GDP is considerably worse than the global average; at a massive 343 per cent it is one of the highest in the world.

We do not have comprehensive data for world private sector debt going back to the Second World War, the last time debt burdens were very high relative to GDP. We do have these private sector debt levels for the United States from 1952, when total government debt was marginally higher than its 1945 level. That the U.S. total non-financial debt-to-GDP ratio was just 121 per cent in 1952, after government borrowing had rocketed to fight the Great Depression and then the war, puts our current world total debt level, at 266 per cent of GDP, in alarming context.

Canada’s government debt at the end of the Second World War was just below 160 per cent of GDP. Although we don’t have the data, it is not possible that the country’s private sector debt-to-GDP ratio in 1945 would have been so high as to push Canada’s total debt burden anywhere near its current 343 per cent of GDP level. The key problem is that across most of the developed world government debt to GDP is rocketing higher at a time when private sector debt-to-GDP is mostly well above record highs. The world’s total debt-to-GDP ratio almost certainly exceeds Second World War levels.

There are a limited number of options for policy-makers aiming to reduce very high debt-to-GDP ratios: very high real economic growth, austerity that reduces government debt levels, debt default, hyperinflation and something called financial repression.

While we are likely to have very high real growth as the passing pandemic releases pent-up demand, the ingredients for sustained very high levels of real economic growth are not present. Some countries, such as Canada, have a greater prospect of producing such a positive solution to their debt problem as immigration keeps population growth high. A productivity revolution would also help to create higher real growth but has proved illusive in recent years and it would have to be a boost on the grandest scale to boost real economic growth to the levels required given current levels of total debt-to-GDP.

Post Second World War even releasing the pent-up demand of the private sector was not alone sufficient to produce the high real growth to reduce debt-to-GDP levels. Austerity, attempted by some governments after the Great Financial Crisis, has been socially divisive and seems to be socially and politically unacceptable. The problem with debt default is that one person’s liabilities are another person’s assets and the writeoff risks major bankruptcies that would reduce growth. Hyperinflation may be tried, or arrive through policy error, but all hyperinflations have created a level of social dislocation that will deter politicians from choosing this option.

Post Second World War excessive debt burdens were reduced by financial repression and that is the policy choice we should expect, given our current circumstances.

In its simplest form a financial repression involves the creation of much higher inflation, but not hyperinflation, while preventing a rise in either short-term or long-term interest rates. The cost of debt remains low while the economy, measured in nominal terms, grows rapidly and the debt-to-GDP ratio declines. Described so simply it sounds easy to achieve, but capping previously market-determined interest rates involves a major shift along the continuum from market economy towards command economy.

After 1945 this did not entail the creation of a command economy but an economy where the flow of credit and capital allocation was strongly controlled or influenced by the government. The French have a good name for that — dirigisme. That system included significant government control over the savings of the population then held by savings institutions. The net impact was to erode the purchasing power of savers while alleviating the burden of debtors. That is financial repression. That is our future

www.thestar.com/business/opinion/2021/02/01/canadas-debt-to-gdp-ratio-is-alarming-what-happened-the-last-time-we-were-in-this-situation.html

Sounds like costs to heat a home in Canafuan winter is high. $1,000 a month in heat? I have a heat pump, 98% only source of heat we have. My power bill is $250-300 per month in winter.

[Cranky]

Feb 2, 2021 2:11:41 GMT -5 GNick99 said:

Sounds like costs to heat a home in Canafuan winter is high. $1,000 a month in heat? I have a heat pump, 98% only source of heat we have. My power bill is $250-300 per month in winter.

Mine is $200 in winter for natural gas. High efficiency everything.

The point here is that right now, a cubic meter of gas is 10 cents and carbon tax iiis 5.7 cents. Sock Boy will raise the carbon tax to $170 a ton, or 50 cents per cubic meter JUST IN CARBON TAX PLUS you pay GST on that tax.

So a gas bill like mine will go fromm $200 a month to $600-$700 a month. Plus the cost of generating electricity from natural gas will skyrocket electricity prices.

Imagine COSTCO energy bills going from $150k to $200k a year to $600k. Who do you think will pay the difference? Everyone everywhere will shove the cost right back to the consumer. Inflating everything.

Where do you live? If you live in Ontario, your electricity cost for your geothermal will skyrocket. That's because Ontario gets a chunk of it's energy from natural gas power stations. Their production costs will go from 7 to 8 cents a kilowatt to 40-50 cents a kilowatt. It will get far, far worse if they replace some of the nuclear with natural gas power stations.

There is absolutely no way that such a massive energy costs rise won't trigger high to very high inflation. Which is EXACTLY what Trudeau intends.

Remember Trudeaus quote?

“the commitment needs to be a commitment to grow the economy and the budget will balance itself”

The subset of his thinking is...."inflate the economy and the debt impact will diminish".

At $170 a ton, that is exactly what will happen. And again it has nothing to do with the environment, it's only the "how dare you oppose this" cover weapon.

Having lived through high inflation, good luck to getting raises and retirement pensions keeping up. It will really hurt and any savings by retired people will be wiped out.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau today released the government's strategy to dramatically reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 2030 — and its centrepiece is a gradual hike in the federal carbon tax on fuels to $170 a tonne by that year.Dec 11, 2020

[GNick99]

Feb 2, 2021 8:08:26 GMT -5 Cranky said:

Feb 2, 2021 2:11:41 GMT -5 GNick99 said:

Sounds like costs to heat a home in Canafuan winter is high. $1,000 a month in heat? I have a heat pump, 98% only source of heat we have. My power bill is $250-300 per month in winter.

Mine is $200 in winter for natural gas. High efficiency everything.

The point here is that right now, a cubic meter of gas is 10 cents and carbon tax iiis 5.7 cents. Sock Boy will raise the carbon tax to $170 a ton, or 50 cents per cubic meter JUST IN CARBON TAX PLUS you pay GST on that tax.

So a gas bill like mine will go fromm $200 a month to $600-$700 a month. Plus the cost of generating electricity from natural gas will skyrocket electricity prices.

Imagine COSTCO energy bills going from $150k to $200k a year to $600k. Who do you think will pay the difference? Everyone everywhere will shove the cost right back to the consumer. Inflating everything.

Where do you live? If you live in Ontario, your electricity cost for your geothermal will skyrocket. That's because Ontario gets a chunk of it's energy from natural gas power stations. Their production costs will go from 7 to 8 cents a kilowatt to 40-50 cents a kilowatt. It will get far, far worse if they replace some of the nuclear with natural gas power stations.

There is absolutely no way that such a massive energy costs rise won't trigger high to very high inflation. Which is EXACTLY what Trudeau intends.

Remember Trudeaus quote?

“the commitment needs to be a commitment to grow the economy and the budget will balance itself”

The subset of his thinking is...."inflate the economy and the debt impact will diminish".

At $170 a ton, that is exactly what will happen. And again it has nothing to do with the environment, it's only the "how dare you oppose this" cover weapon.

Having lived through high inflation, good luck to getting raises and retirement pensions keeping up. It will really hurt and any savings by retired people will be wiped out.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau today released the government's strategy to dramatically reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 2030 — and its centrepiece is a gradual hike in the federal carbon tax on fuels to $170 a tonne by that year.Dec 11, 2020

Gov't has a limit here in Nova Scotia how much power bills can increase. I can't remember what it is but it is highly regulated. Ours won't jump nothing like that.

[Willie Dog]

I guess what they are saying hydro electric dams are the way to go but doesnt that affect indigenous animals?

Alberta was always considered the energy province but they've been decimated so is the plan by Trudeau to make Quebec the "power" province. I had read somewhere that quebec has massive reserves of oil and natural gas but refuse to open them up... I guess federal transfer payments are far more lucrative...

[Cranky]

Feb 2, 2021 17:12:12 GMT -5 Willie Dog said:

I guess what they are saying hydro electric dams are the way to go but doesnt that affect indigenous animals?

Alberta was always considered the energy province but they've been decimated so is the plan by Trudeau to make Quebec the "power" province. I had read somewhere that quebec has massive reserves of oil and natural gas but refuse to open them up... I guess federal transfer payments are far more lucrative...

There just isn't enough dam capacity to get enough energy to heat homes. Plus there is a seasonal variation in available output. Lots in spring, low in fall. The one and only existing way to create that much energy in order to offset natural gas is nuclear. I think my last calculation to offset "fossil feuls" was something like 10 nuclear plants in Ontario alone.

What Trudeau and his spawn want to sell is the lie that solar and wind are the answer. Unlike Trudeau, i have invested in both and the reality of these energy sources is a million miles away from becoming base loads. Of course, they will trot out those unicorn non existent "battery storage". Which if it was ever true, which is never, in order to generate that many megawatts by wind turbines, we literally need giant turbined at the corner of every square mile in ALL of Ontario. From Hudson Bay to Windsor. ALL of it.

If you know the basics of the grid and power conversions, it isn't hard to calculate because all the facts are available on the net. In fact, i can lay it all out here but it will take me a few hours of work and multiple pages of facts and calculations.

Regardless, the $170 a ton isn't about "greening" the economy. It's straight up weapon in forcing inflation on the economy. It's the only weapon they have and can hide under the cover "it's about the enviroment". If you dare complain, you are a denier and a childrens future hater.

Otherwise, there is no government anywhere in the world or in history that can survive "we're inflating tbe economy that will wipe out your savings and make you poorer".

Last Friday i had a close look at the gas bill because i spent the summer upgrading one of the buildings i have to a crazy high tech heating system that's running about 96% efficiency. Engineer, programmer and butt crack plumber all in one sexy package! Put in months of plumbing work and got all the control systems to work just right....only to delve deeper into gas prices and see that the carbon tax will not only wipe out whatever i did, it will make it multiple times more expensive. Fuming Saturday and Sunday why would Trudeau do something so destructive ...then...The the Star article paved the way on why.

I knew the carbon tax was callously inflationary and i knew the low interest rates are to fuel investmemt at the expense of peoples savings. What was an eye opener with the article is the intent of deliberatly causing high inflation despite the damage it will cause AND keeping rates down, decimatining savings and salaries/pensions....by using the carbon tax to force that inflation.

This is now clear and callously intentional....but you know, we the pee'ons are too stupid to figure out what our brilliant Dear Leader is up to...

[GNick99]

Feb 2, 2021 17:12:12 GMT -5 Willie Dog said:

I guess what they are saying hydro electric dams are the way to go but doesnt that affect indigenous animals?

Alberta was always considered the energy province but they've been decimated so is the plan by Trudeau to make Quebec the "power" province. I had read somewhere that quebec has massive reserves of oil and natural gas but refuse to open them up... I guess federal transfer payments are far more lucrative...

Solar will eventually some of it. I think why Elon Musk bought Solarcity.

[franko]

Feb 3, 2021 9:36:04 GMT -5 GNick99 said:

Solar will eventually some of it. I think why Elon Musk bought Solarcity.

the problem with solar and wind is the grid. along with storage. I imagine that they'll work it out eventually if there's money to be made from it.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

We pay an average of $88/month only because we use radiant heat ... we don't have a furnace, we have a boiler that provides heated water to the radiators ... as for electricity, we paid $75 last month, but it varies (there are only two of us) ... I'm not looking forward to seeing the final bill on this but here's an article from BNN Bloomberg (left-of-centre affiliation) ...

Justin Trudeau's gaping deficit begins new
era of debt for Canada
Kait Bolongaro, Bloomberg News

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is set to release his first estimate of the full cost of the effort to buffer Canada from its deepest recession since the 1930s.

Trudeau’s finance minister, Bill Morneau, will provide a fiscal update Wednesday that’s expected to show a current-year deficit of more than $300 billion ($221 billion), or about 14 per cent of economic output, BNN Bloomberg television said. The gap last year was about 1 per cent of gross domestic product.

No other major advanced economy tracked by the International Monetary Fund is expected to record a larger one-year fiscal swing in 2020.

While the massive shortfall has broad political support, it’s dramatic departure for a country with a longstanding aversion to debt and leaves Canada with the prospect of running large deficits for years to come. Morneau, the first finance minister to oversee a credit rating downgrade in 25 years, is under pressure to provide at least cursory assurances the government will return to a more fiscally prudent path once the coronavirus crisis has passed.

The question is “what the next one, two, three years are going to look like and what the appetite is going to be to pull that deficit back down,” Robert Kavcic, senior economist at BMO Capital Markets, said by phone, adding it may be too early for the government to give much guidance.

“We decided to take on that debt to prevent Canadians from having to do it,” Trudeau said at a news conference Wednesday morning in Ottawa. If the government had not provided income support, “what would Canadians have done? They would have loaded up their credit cards. They would have scrambled to try and find ways to pay their bills and pay their groceries and figure out how to care for their loved ones.”

See "Debt Management" ...

[GNick99]

Feb 3, 2021 10:21:44 GMT -5 franko said:

Feb 3, 2021 9:36:04 GMT -5 GNick99 said:

Solar will eventually some of it. I think why Elon Musk bought Solarcity.

the problem with solar and wind is the grid. along with storage. I imagine that they'll work it out eventually if there's money to be made from it.

Elon Musk bought SolarCity, so must think he can do it anyway. He is putting solar panels on roofs to off set costs of electric. Places with lot of sun he is selling back to the grid

[Cranky]

Feb 3, 2021 10:21:44 GMT -5 franko said:

Feb 3, 2021 9:36:04 GMT -5 GNick99 said:

Solar will eventually some of it. I think why Elon Musk bought Solarcity.

the problem with solar and wind is the grid. along with storage. I imagine that they'll work it out eventually if there's money to be made from it.

No they can't. Never. Like NEVER.

As much as they like to scream every time they "set a record" reality is that it's just a fleeting point in time and nothing to fo with constant output. You have to store that wind/solar energy for prolonged periods were wnd and solar don't produce.

You actually need to have two weeks of battery storage in order to be able to supply slow wind/solar time periods. That means that every city block would need an industrial size building to store energy.

Even if you did the above, which is asinine in terms of using land resources, never mind costs, you still have to generate that extra energy beforehand to put it in storage.

Do you know how many turbines and solar panels you need to fo that? We use 20,000 megawatts an hour right now, if you take away "fossil feuls" you need 100,000 megawatts an hour. That alone is enough to plaster the entire province with wind and solar. Wind turbines everywhere you look and huge swaths of forest cut down for solar panels. Or maybe convert farmland, after all, who needs food?

Now comes the fun part, imagine what you need above on a hourly basis and multiply it by 20. Wind turbines are at best, 22% of rated output and solar only 10% of yearly needs. They only output 900 hours of rated capacity out of 8760 hours a year in Ontario. That is why you have to have massively more output and subsequent massive storage when neither are supplying at full output.

Unless of course our society only functions on windy, sunny days and literally freezes to death on those -20C windless winter nights. Maybe that is the plan to get rid of those Mommy Earth destroying bipedals?

The eco wet dream of wind and solar powering our society means....wind turbines on every square mile of Ontario. Huge swaths of forests cut down for solar, industrial sized buildings on every block for storage. The cost would be into the multi trillions and the cost to you? How does $2.00 to cook an egg sound to you? How about $5.00 for a shower? You would literally spend MORE for energy then housing, clothes and food.

The problem with "fossil fuel" free society and solar/wind eco wet dreams is that nobody wants to sit down and put numbers down so the pee'ons can get a real grasp of what their future would look like. Those who know them say nothing because it lines their pockets and the rest won't because it suits their political agendas. They take piss pond superficial numbers like "this turbine powers 5,000 homes" where in fact, if that 500 foot tall massive turbine had to power all the year round energy needs of a "fossil free" house, then it's more like....150 homes. That is why you need one in every square mile of Ontario.

Eco reality isn't as unicorn rosy as you are led to believe...IF you believe.

BTW..I'm not "guessing" at these numbers. I was ready to put tens of millions of my money and over $350 million of a friends money into energy projects here and in the old country. Spend 3 years at it and other then minor projects, walked back. And....I do nothing if I don't have absolute certainty and grasp of ALL the numbers. Including getting multiple energy licenses for Ontario.

Anywho....I really wanted this thread to be about debt and inflation. I'm worried about the debt and even more worried how Trudeau is going to economically clobber us to deal with it with his eco agenda....

[franko]

Feb 3, 2021 18:31:43 GMT -5 GNick99 said:

Feb 3, 2021 10:21:44 GMT -5 franko said:

the problem with solar and wind is the grid. along with storage. I imagine that they'll work it out eventually if there's money to be made from it.

Elon Musk bought SolarCity, so must think he can do it anyway. He is putting solar panels on roofs to off set costs of electric. Places with lot of sun he is selling back to the grid

no, I think that he thinks that he can get more government money. remember, Elon is not in the business of making cars, he's in the business of accessing grants (kinda like Bombardier).

[GNick99]

Feb 3, 2021 18:52:46 GMT -5 Cranky said:

Feb 3, 2021 10:21:44 GMT -5 franko said:

the problem with solar and wind is the grid. along with storage. I imagine that they'll work it out eventually if there's money to be made from it.

No they can't. Never. Like NEVER.

As much as they like to scream every time they "set a record" reality is that it's just a fleeting point in time and nothing to fo with constant output. You have to store that wind/solar energy for prolonged periods were wnd and solar don't produce.

You actually need to have two weeks of battery storage in order to be able to supply slow wind/solar time periods. That means that every city block would need an industrial size building to store energy.

Even if you did the above, which is asinine in terms of using land resources, never mind costs, you still have to generate that extra energy beforehand to put it in storage.

Do you know how many turbines and solar panels you need to fo that? We use 20,000 megawatts an hour right now, if you take away "fossil feuls" you need 100,000 megawatts an hour. That alone is enough to plaster the entire province with wind and solar. Wind turbines everywhere you look and huge swaths of forest cut down for solar panels. Or maybe convert farmland, after all, who needs food?

Now comes the fun part, imagine what you need above on a hourly basis and multiply it by 20. Wind turbines are at best, 22% of rated output and solar only 10% of yearly needs. They only output 900 hours of rated capacity out of 8760 hours a year in Ontario. That is why you have to have massively more output and subsequent massive storage when neither are supplying at full output.

Unless of course our society only functions on windy, sunny days and literally freezes to death on those -20C windless winter nights. Maybe that is the plan to get rid of those Mommy Earth destroying bipedals?

The eco wet dream of wind and solar powering our society means....wind turbines on every square mile of Ontario. Huge swaths of forests cut down for solar, industrial sized buildings on every block for storage. The cost would be into the multi trillions and the cost to you? How does $2.00 to cook an egg sound to you? How about $5.00 for a shower? You would literally spend MORE for energy then housing, clothes and food.

The problem with "fossil fuel" free society and solar/wind eco wet dreams is that nobody wants to sit down and put numbers down so the pee'ons can get a real grasp of what their future would look like. Those who know them say nothing because it lines their pockets and the rest won't because it suits their political agendas. They take piss pond superficial numbers like "this turbine powers 5,000 homes" where in fact, if that 500 foot tall massive turbine had to power all the year round energy needs of a "fossil free" house, then it's more like....150 homes. That is why you need one in every square mile of Ontario.

Eco reality isn't as unicorn rosy as you are led to believe...IF you believe.

BTW..I'm not "guessing" at these numbers. I was ready to put tens of millions of my money and over $350 million of a friends money into energy projects here and in the old country. Spend 3 years at it and other then minor projects, walked back. And....I do nothing if I don't have absolute certainty and grasp of ALL the numbers. Including getting multiple energy licenses for Ontario.

Anywho....I really wanted this thread to be about debt and inflation. I'm worried about the debt and even more worried how Trudeau is going to economically clobber us to deal with it with his eco agenda....

Musk says he can sell solar power back on the grid. House owners will make money from it. He must know what he is doing. Look at success of SpaceX and Tesla?

[Cranky]

Feb 5, 2021 14:51:52 GMT -5 GNick99 said:

Musk says he can sell solar power back on the grid. House owners will make money from it. He must know what he is doing. Look at success of SpaceX and Tesla?

Well then, we are all going to be rich!

As franko said, Musk is in the business of making money from subsidies. What he's really dreaming about is that Biden subsidizes umpteen hundreds of billions in solar and storage products. After all, he has enormous battery production and nothing would make Musk happier then making enormous profits selling subsidized power banks. And subsidized solar panels. At the taxpayers expense.

Right now, right this minute, you or anyone can go out and invest $30,000 in solar panels and another $10,000 in batteries and sell that excess power to the grid at peak load. When that peak load happens. Problem is that one would lose ones shirt.....and pants.....and socks.

Current IESO price in Ontario, right now, right this minute, at PEAK 5 pm rate......$6.60 a megawatt/hour. Or .66 cents a kilowatt/hour. Less then a penny. We are generating MORE then we need.

Your generating cost on that would be roughly 30 cents a kilowatt/hour.

Does that sound like a good investment?

If it was, wouldn't it be rampant by now? After all, the technology was available years ago.

One can throw "Musk said this" or someone said that, or find glowing eco articles rich in accolades and piss poor in reality/facts...but one needs to do a bit of due diligence and market research first.

[GNick99]

Feb 5, 2021 17:11:09 GMT -5 Cranky said:

Feb 5, 2021 14:51:52 GMT -5 GNick99 said:

Musk says he can sell solar power back on the grid. House owners will make money from it. He must know what he is doing. Look at success of SpaceX and Tesla?

Well then, we are all going to be rich!

As franko said, Musk is in the business of making money from subsidies. What he's really dreaming about is that Biden subsidizes umpteen hundreds of billions in solar and storage products. After all, he has enormous battery production and nothing would make Musk happier then making enormous profits selling subsidized power banks. And subsidized solar panels. At the taxpayers expense.

Right now, right this minute, you or anyone can go out and invest $30,000 in solar panels and another $10,000 in batteries and sell that excess power to the grid at peak load. When that peak load happens. Problem is that one would lose ones shirt.....and pants.....and socks.

Current IESO price in Ontario, right now, right this minute, at PEAK 5 pm rate......$6.60 a megawatt/hour. Or .66 cents a kilowatt/hour. Less then a penny. We are generating MORE then we need.

Your generating cost on that would be roughly 30 cents a kilowatt/hour.

Does that sound like a good investment?

If it was, wouldn't it be rampant by now? After all, the technology was available years ago.

One can throw "Musk said this" or someone said that, or find glowing eco articles rich in accolades and piss poor in reality/facts...but one needs to do a bit of due diligence and market research first.

Never said going to be rich! But a few bucks some be making. Don't have to invest.

Oil and gas need to go. They are ruining our environment.

[Willie Dog]

Feb 5, 2021 17:11:09 GMT -5 Cranky said:

Feb 5, 2021 14:51:52 GMT -5 GNick99 said:

Musk says he can sell solar power back on the grid. House owners will make money from it. He must know what he is doing. Look at success of SpaceX and Tesla?

Well then, we are all going to be rich!

As franko said, Musk is in the business of making money from subsidies. What he's really dreaming about is that Biden subsidizes umpteen hundreds of billions in solar and storage products. After all, he has enormous battery production and nothing would make Musk happier then making enormous profits selling subsidized power banks. And subsidized solar panels. At the taxpayers expense.

Right now, right this minute, you or anyone can go out and invest $30,000 in solar panels and another $10,000 in batteries and sell that excess power to the grid at peak load. When that peak load happens. Problem is that one would lose ones shirt.....and pants.....and socks.

Current IESO price in Ontario, right now, right this minute, at PEAK 5 pm rate......$6.60 a megawatt/hour. Or .66 cents a kilowatt/hour. Less then a penny. We are generating MORE then we need.

Your generating cost on that would be roughly 30 cents a kilowatt/hour.

Does that sound like a good investment?

If it was, wouldn't it be rampant by now? After all, the technology was available years ago.

One can throw "Musk said this" or someone said that, or find glowing eco articles rich in accolades and piss poor in reality/facts...but one needs to do a bit of due diligence and market research first.

I recall ontario used to pay producers not to produce or pay our neighbours to take it off our hands

[Cranky]

Feb 9, 2021 16:37:31 GMT -5 Willie Dog said:

I recall ontario used to pay producers not to produce or pay our neighbours to take it off our hands

Yup. Paid 15 cents a kilowatt on fixed 20 year contracts..and sold it for a penny or two. Occasional even a negative value....meaning we paid to get rid of it.

Mostly about wind energy that comes on and off faster then adjusting the base loads. Wind can literally come on for half an hour and then die down. You can't do that with nuclear and hydro.

Energy is now politically driven, which is absolutely the last thing we need. I walked away from a major Ontario wind project because.....I was worried that a change of government would crush the project. And of course, it happened.

This entire "oil, gas, green" is a feelings driven, vote licking quagmire that will cost Canadians a chunk of their economic future. Some eco fundamentalist will actually celebrate it because they are convinced we are "killing the planet".

Long before it was fashionable to scream about "saving the planet", I wrote a university paper back in the late 70s about converting into a nuclear/hydro powered grid. Electric heating, railroads and just about everything but cars. Still valid today. The basis then was about the economic sense of doing that, not the reverse that is now about punishing people into energy poverty.

Instead of punishment people for living in a modern society, instead of using energy as an excuse to control lives, to drive inflation, it is possible to look at sustainable energy solutions, which is mostly hydro and nuclear.

BTW....the next carbon price increase in Ontario is around the corner....

www.nortonrosefulbright.com/en/knowledge/publications/d58ef644/canada-to-increase-carbon-taxes-by-566#:~:text=The%20Canadian%20federal%20government%20recently,of%20566%25%20over%2010%20years.&text=The%20federal%20carbon%20tax%20in,Pollution%20Pricing%20Act%20(GGPPA).

[GNick99]

Feb 9, 2021 17:17:11 GMT -5 Cranky said:

Feb 9, 2021 16:37:31 GMT -5 Willie Dog said:

I recall ontario used to pay producers not to produce or pay our neighbours to take it off our hands

Yup. Paid 15 cents a kilowatt on fixed 20 year contracts..and sold it for a penny or two. Occasional even a negative value....meaning we paid to get rid of it.

Mostly about wind energy that comes on and off faster then adjusting the base loads. Wind can literally come on for half an hour and then die down. You can't do that with nuclear and hydro.

Energy is now politically driven, which is absolutely the last thing we need. I walked away from a major Ontario wind project because.....I was worried that a change of government would crush the project. And of course, it happened.

This entire "oil, gas, green" is a feelings driven, vote licking quagmire that will cost Canadians a chunk of their economic future. Some eco fundamentalist will actually celebrate it because they are convinced we are "killing the planet".

Long before it was fashionable to scream about "saving the planet", I wrote a university paper back in the late 70s about converting into a nuclear/hydro powered grid. Electric heating, railroads and just about everything but cars. Still valid today. The basis then was about the economic sense of doing that, not the reverse that is now about punishing people into energy poverty.

Instead of punishment people for living in a modern society, instead of using energy as an excuse to control lives, to drive inflation, it is possible to look at sustainable energy solutions, which is mostly hydro and nuclear.

BTW....the next carbon price increase in Ontario is around the corner....

www.nortonrosefulbright.com/en/knowledge/publications/d58ef644/canada-to-increase-carbon-taxes-by-566#:~:text=The%20Canadian%20federal%20government%20recently,of%20566%25%20over%2010%20years.&text=The%20federal%20carbon%20tax%20in,Pollution%20Pricing%20Act%20(GGPPA).

Well then we are doomed aren't we. Ruined earth with new viruses popping up left, right and center.

[Willie Dog]

If I had family in Spain, Greece or elsewhere in the Mediterranean, where the cost of living is the same or lower, I would move there because the cost of living as person in the middle class will become more and more difficult... in the UK the middle class has been decimated, in the US it's getting bad, and it's going to get that way here very soon imo

Australia would be awesome but the cost of living there is higher... by about 10 percent..

[Cranky]

Feb 12, 2021 3:52:55 GMT -5 GNick99 said:

Well then we are doomed aren't we. Ruined earth with new viruses popping up left, right and center.

Who is the "we" part? If those are YOUR fears, YOU are entitled to them.

One liners about your feelings......

[Cranky]

Feb 12, 2021 17:26:08 GMT -5 Willie Dog said:

If I had family in Spain, Greece or elsewhere in the Mediterranean, where the cost of living is the same or lower, I would move there because the cost of living as person in the middle class will become more and more difficult... in the UK the middle class has been decimated, in the US it's getting bad, and it's going to get that way here very soon imo

Australia would be awesome but the cost of living there is higher... by about 10 percent..

Yup. The middle class in England has entered the age of "energy poverty". They are now spending a large part of their income for the crime of living in a modern society. We are heading there in a matter of years.

Greece is offering a 10 year flat tax rate regardless of income. I think it's 7%. You don't have to live there year round, just one day past half the year to be a "tax resident". Since I normally visit there twice a year for about a month, it's not a stretch.

It's a bit of a myth that these countries are "cheap" to live in. House acquisition is way cheaper then our inflated market and house taxes are about half of what they are here. The food cost and general cost of living is about the same....so far. If we start to inflate our energy cost into energy poverty, that will change in a hurry. As for a "foreigner" living there, it's pretty easy. There are of course a million details that by speaking the language, it simplifies things, but nothing overwhelming.

The worse one is navigating their medical system, which is you are a foreigner, it's foreign. It's NOT up to our simplified level. So getting sick there is not recommended. The treatment is available, but we are not use to taking care of our own WITHIN the hospital. They simply don't have the nursing care level we have. Or do we? That may be a perceived myth and since I don't care to have a personal experience, it will remain so. Visiting hours are on a 24 hour basis where you can give a loved one, lots of personal care and love. Or grief. Had both parents in their system and because I can afford it, had 3 nurses aid look after them around the clock. Not so easy if you can't afford $200 a day in nurses aids.

If you really want a breakdown from someone who has "lived there" foot in both countries and no visitor coloured glasses, by all means, open a thread.

[Willie Dog]

Feb 12, 2021 17:43:56 GMT -5 Cranky said:

Feb 12, 2021 17:26:08 GMT -5 Willie Dog said:

If I had family in Spain, Greece or elsewhere in the Mediterranean, where the cost of living is the same or lower, I would move there because the cost of living as person in the middle class will become more and more difficult... in the UK the middle class has been decimated, in the US it's getting bad, and it's going to get that way here very soon imo

Australia would be awesome but the cost of living there is higher... by about 10 percent..

Yup. The middle class in England has entered the age of "energy poverty". They are now spending a large part of their income for the crime of living in a modern society. We are heading there in a matter of years.

Greece is offering a 10 year flat tax rate regardless of income. I think it's 7%. You don't have to live there year round, just one day past half the year to be a "tax resident". Since I normally visit there twice a year for about a month, it's not a stretch.

It's a bit of a myth that these countries are "cheap" to live in. House acquisition is way cheaper then our inflated market and house taxes are about half of what they are here. The food cost and general cost of living is about the same....so far. If we start to inflate our energy cost into energy poverty, that will change in a hurry. As for a "foreigner" living there, it's pretty easy. There are of course a million details that by speaking the language, it simplifies things, but nothing overwhelming.

The worse one is navigating their medical system, which is you are a foreigner, it's foreign. It's NOT up to our simplified level. So getting sick there is not recommended. The treatment is available, but we are not use to taking care of our own WITHIN the hospital. They simply don't have the nursing care level we have. Or do we? That may be a perceived myth and since I don't care to have a personal experience, it will remain so. Visiting hours are on a 24 hour basis where you can give a loved one, lots of personal care and love. Or grief. Had both parents in their system and because I can afford it, had 3 nurses aid look after them around the clock. Not so easy if you can't afford $200 a day in nurses aids.

If you really want a breakdown from someone who has "lived there" foot in both countries and no visitor coloured glasses, by all means, open a thread.

I wont start a thread because I dont have any family there... I have some family in Lebanon but that place is a permanent dumpster fire.

I would think about a permanent move to Australia though... I hate winter...

[Cranky]

Feb 12, 2021 18:12:23 GMT -5 Willie Dog said:

I wont start a thread because I dont have any family there... I have some family in Lebanon but that place is a permanent dumpster fire.

I would think about a permanent move to Australia though... I hate winter...

I have family there...but it will certainly NOT be the reason I would make that my "summer" home.

It's not easy moving away from familiar surroundings. It's not one thing, but a million little things that make life predictable and comfortable. And it's certainly not about money because as it is, Ontario and particularly the GTA is not that cheap to live in. Especially if you are on a fixed retirement income. Can ANYONE live a middle class life in a city on regular government pension?

Which brings me full circle on why I started this thread and why I'm getting pissed off by ANOTHER massive, inflationary tax that will make it even harder, far harder to live on a fixed income. It does not affect us at all, but the same can not be said by any of my middle class neighbors who are now retired baby boomers and hoping to live a little bit reduced, but the same life from their savings. Saving that the Trudeau has full intent of evaporating as quickly as possible to pay for the enormous over-reactive debt he incurred.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Feb 12, 2021 17:26:08 GMT -5 Willie Dog said:

If I had family in Spain, Greece or elsewhere in the Mediterranean, where the cost of living is the same or lower, I would move there because the cost of living as person in the middle class will become more and more difficult... in the UK the middle class has been decimated, in the US it's getting bad, and it's going to get that way here very soon imo

We looked at some options and decided to vacation here and there, instead ... military pensions are based on time served, so the longer you serve, the better the pension ... the norm is 2%/year, so a 20-year pension earns you 40% of your six-best years, 30 years of service equals 60%, etc ... for a lot of the "other ranks" (ORs) this equates around $1,200/month ... it's not enough to live on here in Canada, so you'll need to work after release ... however, all the Panamanian government is asking for is proof that you draw a minimum of $1,200/month from the government of Canada ... I don't know what that gets you, but I'm fairly sure it won't be enough to retire super comfy on ... you'll (probably) still live alright, but you also have the privilege of living in Panama, which has extremely high crime ... I was in Cyprus back in 1982/83, and there were a few Canadian soldiers who met Cypriot women, and stayed there living off their pensions ... more recently, two years ago I used to golf with a veteran at my golf course, and he was packing everything up and moving back to Cyprus, which is where his wife was from ... Canada is generally 25% more expensive to live than Cyprus, but he went there with the intent of retiring, so I'm sure he did his research before taking the Nestea Plunge ... and make no mistake, Cyprus has a lot to offer being the 'European Florida' ...

Australia would be awesome but the cost of living there is higher... by about 10 percent..

We found it to be very expensive ... restaurants can be a tad more expensive, but in general, the Aussies know how to do specialty burgers ... sushi houses are literally everywhere, and very affordable ... yet, where Canada ranks 24th, Australia is ranked as the 11th most-expensive place to live on the planet ... one factor that makes it more expensive is their minimum wage ... as of July 1st, 2020, the minimum wage in Australia was $19.84/hour, and while that looks like an attractive amount to make, the higher minimum wage the higher consumer prices across the board ... check out what it costs for a case of beer at Dan Murphy's, in Sydney ... we noticed the same pricing in Brisbane, as well ... still Australians seem to make it work ... would love to go back, but it'll cost a chunk of dineros, err ... so to speak ...

Cheers.

[Cranky]

Dis,

Our expenses are about $40,000+ cash. That's not including vacations or cars or any none essential major purchases. No debts. We are very frugal bulk buyers and have no vices other then my occasional "fancy" car. Which even then is based on buying and keeping for a looong time. Doesn't sound like a "rich" lifestyle....and it isn't.

That puts us outside the funding of our "full" pension plans. Notice, our, like two pension plans. One isn't enough to live in a two room "efficiency" prison cell.

Sooo...here is the problem as I see it. Some people have a bit of money put on the side. mostly by saving for it all their lives, so they can retire a bit more comfortably. Certainly not cashes of crypto currency and high yield stocks....or those mythical Greek mattresses filled with cash. Nor getting "rich" from 1% interest from the banks.

What are those people going to do when faced with a TRIPLE slam of crazy rising energy prices AND suppressed interest rates AND forced inflation? People, meaning the VAST majority of retired Canadians aren't going to feed themselves on feelings and bullcrap agenda spewing media stories about our "virtues" Canada.

THAT is my concern. And it's not theoretical......

[Disgruntled70sHab]

HA, Mrs. Dis and I were lucky insomuch as, we had the opportunities when we were younger that helped us better plan for retirement ... I won't get into details, but I will say that we're both very grateful for those opportunities ... I know what you're saying about being frugal ... we check all the flyers, and we have three options all within a 2/3 kms from the house ... yet, that said, we have friends who didn't have the same opportunities, and are going to be working for more years ... that said, in comparison to other countries, Canada literally is a land of 'milk and honey', but it comes with a hidden price tag, and I see that price every time I get served by a senior when I pull up to a Tim Horton's or a McDonald's (much better coffee) ... growing up, the average age for people working in fast-food was about 17 (I'll find the ref later), and those jobs were viewed as opportunities ... nowadays the average age in fast-food is 29 (NY Times) but many of those employees are seniors who are there because they have to be ... their pensions simply aren't enough either, and it's going to get worse them as the final bill on Coronavirus comes due ... don't get me wrong, all of us will be affected by this, but the seniors are going to get hit particularly hard ... Denmark is a socialist democracy, and it's routine for citizens to pay 50% + in taxes ... it seems to work for them, and while I don't want to necessarily see it here, we in Canada, are approaching this more and more ... just an opinion ...

Cheers.

[GNick99]

Feb 12, 2021 17:36:09 GMT -5 Cranky said:

Feb 12, 2021 3:52:55 GMT -5 GNick99 said:

Well then we are doomed aren't we. Ruined earth with new viruses popping up left, right and center.

Who is the "we" part? If those are YOUR fears, YOU are entitled to them.

One liners about your feelings......

The we are people here on planet earth

[Cranky]

Feb 12, 2021 22:19:17 GMT -5 Disgruntled70sHab said:

HA, Mrs. Dis and I were lucky insomuch as, we had the opportunities when we were younger that helped us better plan for retirement ... I won't get into details, but I will say that we're both very grateful for those opportunities ... I know what you're saying about being frugal ... we check all the flyers, and we have three options all within a 2/3 kms from the house ... yet, that said, we have friends who didn't have the same opportunities, and are going to be working for more years ... that said, in comparison to other countries, Canada literally is a land of 'milk and honey', but it comes with a hidden price tag, and I see that price every time I get served by a senior when I pull up to a Tim Horton's or a McDonald's (much better coffee) ... growing up, the average age for people working in fast-food was about 17 (I'll find the ref later), and those jobs were viewed as opportunities ... nowadays the average age in fast-food is 29 (NY Times) but many of those employees are seniors who are there because they have to be ... their pensions simply aren't enough either, and it's going to get worse them as the final bill on Coronavirus comes due ... don't get me wrong, all of us will be affected by this, but the seniors are going to get hit particularly hard ... Denmark is a socialist democracy, and it's routine for citizens to pay 50% + in taxes ... it seems to work for them, and while I don't want to necessarily see it here, we in Canada, are approaching this more and more ... just an opinion ...

Cheers.

Some stats...

The CIBC survey found the average amount Canadians have already saved for retirement is $184,000, while 19 per cent of respondents have saved less than $50,000 and 30 per cent have no retirement savings at all.

Here is the problem. That $184,000 is only going to yield $1,800 interest at the bank. Not enough to cover the gross shortfall of at least $10,000 per year for a frugal middle class lifestyle. FRUGAL.

Inflation steps up into the 5%-6% annually, that money evaporates in 12-13 years.

Dear Leader shoves his $170 a ton agenda on us, that money evaporates in less then ten years. While he will spout rebates, everything around us will rise and directly cost us BESIDES driving up the cost of living on everything.

When COSTCO see their store heating/cooling bills rise from $150,000 to $500,000, they will pass those energy cost to us AND add massivly on top since everything they touch will be far more expensive. Their municipal taxes, labor, expenses, everything will cost them far more...and WE will pay for that. Same thing for the food manufacturers/producers. WE will pay for that too.

Then what? Walmart greeters at 75? Sell everything and move into 15x20 concrete cells?

Dear Leader plan is to do both at the same time. In fact, use the energy hikes to fuel inflation. Literally, deliberately and callously wipe out our retirement savings and go far beyond that.

THAT is his and his party clear agenda that is masquerading as "saving the planet". THAT will be our future.

Sadly, there will be people who will celebrate that and worse, people who think that it's the "other guy" that will pay or suffer. The frog never realizes that it's in the same pot, getting cooked...slowly...

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Feb 13, 2021 8:26:03 GMT -5 Cranky said:

Feb 12, 2021 22:19:17 GMT -5 Disgruntled70sHab said:

HA, Mrs. Dis and I were lucky insomuch as, we had the opportunities when we were younger that helped us better plan for retirement ... I won't get into details, but I will say that we're both very grateful for those opportunities ... I know what you're saying about being frugal ... we check all the flyers, and we have three options all within a 2/3 kms from the house ... yet, that said, we have friends who didn't have the same opportunities, and are going to be working for more years ... that said, in comparison to other countries, Canada literally is a land of 'milk and honey', but it comes with a hidden price tag, and I see that price every time I get served by a senior when I pull up to a Tim Horton's or a McDonald's (much better coffee) ... growing up, the average age for people working in fast-food was about 17 (I'll find the ref later), and those jobs were viewed as opportunities ... nowadays the average age in fast-food is 29 (NY Times) but many of those employees are seniors who are there because they have to be ... their pensions simply aren't enough either, and it's going to get worse them as the final bill on Coronavirus comes due ... don't get me wrong, all of us will be affected by this, but the seniors are going to get hit particularly hard ... Denmark is a socialist democracy, and it's routine for citizens to pay 50% + in taxes ... it seems to work for them, and while I don't want to necessarily see it here, we in Canada, are approaching this more and more ... just an opinion ...

Cheers.

Some stats...

The CIBC survey found the average amount Canadians have already saved for retirement is $184,000, while 19 per cent of respondents have saved less than $50,000 and 30 per cent have no retirement savings at all.

Here is the problem. That $184,000 is only going to yield $1,800 interest at the bank. Not enough to cover the gross shortfall of at least $10,000 per year for a frugal middle class lifestyle. FRUGAL.

Inflation steps up into the 5%-6% annually, that money evaporates in 12-13 years.

Dear Leader shoves his $170 a ton agenda on us, that money evaporates in less then ten years. While he will spout rebates, everything around us will rise and directly cost us BESIDES driving up the cost of living on everything.

When COSTCO see their store heating/cooling bills rise from $150,000 to $500,000, they will pass those energy cost to us AND add massivly on top since everything they touch will be far more expensive. Their municipal taxes, labor, expenses, everything will cost them far more...and WE will pay for that. Same thing for the food manufacturers/producers. WE will pay for that too.

Then what? Walmart greeters at 75? Sell everything and move into 15x20 concrete cells?

Dear Leader plan is to do both at the same time. In fact, use the energy hikes to fuel inflation. Literally, deliberately and callously wipe out our retirement savings and go far beyond that.

THAT is his and his party clear agenda that is masquerading as "saving the planet". THAT will be our future.

Sadly, there will be people who will celebrate that and worse, people who think that it's the "other guy" that will pay or suffer. The frog never realizes that it's in the same pot, getting cooked...slowly...

What's the solution ... it's an honest question, HA, because I don't have it ...

Cheers.

[Cranky]

Feb 13, 2021 9:53:50 GMT -5 Disgruntled70sHab said:

[What's the solution ... it's an honest question, HA, because I don't have it ...

Cheers.

Eco side...

I don't buy the "we are killing the planet"...but if we are serious about creating a "greener" enviroment without crippling modern civilization, then move away from worthless and unscalable solution like wind and sloar to hydro and nuclear. Ontario at this minute creates 60% of it's energy from two nuclear plants.

Scale that up. Every year or two bring another 5 gig nuclear on line and change the infrustructure. Electric cars, electric railroad and start shifting residential heat. 20 year project and a trillion dollars later, you got oil/gas down to manufacturing plastics and using it where you can't do without it.

That is a plan that requires no unicorn technology and is easily doable. In fact, there are massive improvememt in nuclear and scalability ready to go.

Instead of Dear Leaders....hurt them so bad they have to stop using evil fossil feuls. On top of Dear Leaders stripping us of our savings and livelyhoods to give it to his friends. You know, the ones that kick back all those donations.

I've written several times....the president of the ontario liberal party became the CEO of an offshore company that put up wind projects.

Imagine how much more corruption they will foster while stripping us of our economic lives...with no plan other then pain.

On the debt....

Start taxing house sales over a million. 10% tax on the first million. 20% tax on the second million.

Tax vehicles over 2 tons. SUVs and trucks..10% tax.

2% rise in GST.

Every penny of the money raised goes into the debt.

Of course it will never happen because Dear Leader and company wont get votes on taxing people. Much more vote licking can be had by giving away what too many stupid people think is "free ice cream".

I've lived inside the mentality of "free ice cream" society that is Greece...and people never, ever want to give up what they think is their right..and the right to MORE. It's ALWAYS the other guy that will pay....ALWAYS the other guy who is at fault and undeserving ...despite seeing the economic devastation around them.

Sadly...Dear Leader and company know this....so they will NEVER stop bribing the populace with more expenditures and entitlements. It works. It keeps them in power.

There are solutions....