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Post by Willie Dog on Nov 18, 2021 10:58:55 GMT -5
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Post by folatre on Nov 18, 2021 12:31:29 GMT -5
Yikes, not sure who this dude is who wrote that piece, but giving up Montreal's supposed 2C (who just cost a first and a second rounder) for a 23 year old d-man (Valimaki) who cannot consistently crack Calgary's lineup is a head scratcher. And, then, just for fun, Montreal takes Lucic.
I am not a big Dylan Strome fan. In terms of his playing style and skill set, he is basically his brother in New York but with less consistency.
The only trade that makes some sense is the Girard one. Maybe something like Girard and a second rounder for Toffoli, Harris, and a 4th.
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Post by Cranky on Nov 19, 2021 0:32:15 GMT -5
Brilliant piece. Let's trade our 2C for a guy who can't crack the line-up.
Strome at a price....fine.
Girard...fine.
But there is a limit to how much we want to pay to get them.
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Post by frozone on Nov 19, 2021 11:25:01 GMT -5
I don't understand how any of these players would come in and improve the team. Sure, having Girard would be great, but isn't Toffoli supposed to be our best winger? Are we really taking a step forward? Perhaps if Girard is the one driving his point totals in Colorado, but I suspect that he's not.
The Strome trade might be the only one that I would bother doing, since trading winger depth for a center could be interesting for our roster distribution. But I don't expect Strome would actually work out here. He may be skilled, but he only improves this team if he drastically improves his gameplay.
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Post by Cranky on Nov 19, 2021 17:43:42 GMT -5
I don't understand how any of these players would come in and improve the team. Sure, having Girard would be great, but isn't Toffoli supposed to be our best winger? Are we really taking a step forward? Perhaps if Girard is the one driving his point totals in Colorado, but I suspect that he's not. The Strome trade might be the only one that I would bother doing, since trading winger depth for a center could be interesting for our roster distribution. But I don't expect Strome would actually work out here. He may be skilled, but he only improves this team if he drastically improves his gameplay. "Normally" someone like Strome would be useful if he had a very good 200 ft game as well as offensive upside. Now, he's just joining a team that has given up. Doubt he puts up points. I'm myself repeating myself....but we need to fix our goalie situation. Either Price comes back and puts his substance abuse behind him or he retires and we get a mid level starter....THEN move forward on trades. No use giving up futures or dismantling the team if we don't have a worthy goalie. Might as well play the kids, not that it's going to turn them into anything great, but at least they get an oversized tryout. |
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Post by folatre on Nov 19, 2021 20:31:16 GMT -5
Fro, it does not necessarily have to be Toffoli. If Sakic wanted Hoffman or Drouin, that would be cool too.
But the basic concept makes sense. Montreal needs a puck moving d-man who can also quarterback the power play. Montreal has a surplus of wingers who need to be cast in offensive top six roles in order to be successful. So I am just reasoning that, whether it happens in season or in the summer, the Habs GM (Bergevin or his successor) needs to move on from one of these wingers.
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Post by seventeen on Nov 22, 2021 14:49:22 GMT -5
I don't understand how any of these players would come in and improve the team. Sure, having Girard would be great, but isn't Toffoli supposed to be our best winger? Are we really taking a step forward? Perhaps if Girard is the one driving his point totals in Colorado, but I suspect that he's not. The Strome trade might be the only one that I would bother doing, since trading winger depth for a center could be interesting for our roster distribution. But I don't expect Strome would actually work out here. He may be skilled, but he only improves this team if he drastically improves his gameplay. From what I’ve seen of Strome, (not much) I’d say he has skating issues. Not quite quick or fast enough. |
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Post by seventeen on Nov 22, 2021 14:51:28 GMT -5
Fro, it does not necessarily have to be Toffoli. If Sakic wanted Hoffman or Drouin, that would be cool too. But the basic concept makes sense. Montreal needs a puck moving d-man who can also quarterback the power play. Montreal has a surplus of wingers who need to be cast in offensive top six roles in order to be successful. So I am just reasoning that, whether it happens in season or in the summer, the Habs GM (Bergevin or his successor) needs to move on from one of these wingers. A puck mover like Girard does not fit the SAHD criteria. Stay At Home Defenseman |
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Post by Tankdriver on Nov 23, 2021 11:11:13 GMT -5
Fro, it does not necessarily have to be Toffoli. If Sakic wanted Hoffman or Drouin, that would be cool too. But the basic concept makes sense. Montreal needs a puck moving d-man who can also quarterback the power play. Montreal has a surplus of wingers who need to be cast in offensive top six roles in order to be successful. So I am just reasoning that, whether it happens in season or in the summer, the Habs GM (Bergevin or his successor) needs to move on from one of these wingers. Could you imagine the Halifax Mooseheads duo of Mackinnon and Drouin in Colorado? If they could find that magic again, Colorado would win the trade hands down. Let's face it, Drouin has very little trade value. |
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Post by folatre on Nov 23, 2021 12:05:34 GMT -5
Drouin is super skilled with the puck on this stick. And notwithstanding the injury that kept him out of some games, he is not off to a bad start this season. But compete level and consistency in production have always been the issues for him since he came into the league. If he could bring it each night with a savvier and more determined brand of hockey, like say Zuccarello, then Drouin would be a really nice roster piece. But, as things stand, I agree with you Tank that his trade value is minimal.
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Post by Andrew on Nov 23, 2021 14:13:03 GMT -5
I feel like Chairot will be our best trade chip as the season wears on. Playoff hopefuls and contenders will be interested in adding a physical depth defenseman as a rental. He may even fetch a first round pick if MB plays it right (hopefully from a middling team on the playoff cusp rather than a wagon like Carolina). Of course MB will probably do the opposite and sign him to a multi-year extension, holding back tears as he talks about how this is the type of player you win with.
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Post by seventeen on Nov 23, 2021 15:05:47 GMT -5
I think we value Chiarot more than anybody else does. I doubt anyone offers a first rounder, but maybe a 2nd. He would be, after all, only a rental, but as was said, some middling, on the cusp team might admire his toughness and skating and overlook his hockey IQ.
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Post by folatre on Nov 23, 2021 18:06:02 GMT -5
It is hard to know. Winnipeg gave Washington two second rounders for Brenden Dillon. Dillon and Chiarot are relatively similar in my estimation. The Blues gave Montreal a second and a fourth for Scandella (I rate Chiarot more than Scandella).
A first round pick is likely overly optimistic unless there turns out to be a cap tied suitor who really likes Chiarot's overall profile (big, skates, playoff nasty) and is willing to pony up a little more juice in the event that Montreal retains money to help them out.
Chiarot is a great dude and I actually do not dislike him as a player, but I think common sense (hopefully Bergevin sees it) says Montreal is entering a 2-3 year period of cap hell and keeping Chiarot is simply not a "luxury" the roster can afford. Moreover, isn't the point of drafting and developing kids ultimately to replace some vets on the wrong side of 30 with younger, cheaper players?
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Post by Tankdriver on Nov 24, 2021 15:28:34 GMT -5
It is hard to know. Winnipeg gave Washington two second rounders for Brenden Dillon. Dillon and Chiarot are relatively similar in my estimation. The Blues gave Montreal a second and a fourth for Scandella (I rate Chiarot more than Scandella). A first round pick is likely overly optimistic unless there turns out to be a cap tied suitor who really likes Chiarot's overall profile (big, skates, playoff nasty) and is willing to pony up a little more juice in the event that Montreal retains money to help them out. Chiarot is a great dude and I actually do not dislike him as a player, but I think common sense (hopefully Bergevin sees it) says Montreal is entering a 2-3 year period of cap hell and keeping Chiarot is simply not a "luxury" the roster can afford. Moreover, isn't the point of drafting and developing kids ultimately to replace some vets on the wrong side of 30 with younger, cheaper players? That's the way it is supposed to be. Plus with Savard and Edmundson, it makes a 3rd kind of redundant. |
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Post by seventeen on Nov 24, 2021 15:46:42 GMT -5
It is hard to know. Winnipeg gave Washington two second rounders for Brenden Dillon. Dillon and Chiarot are relatively similar in my estimation. The Blues gave Montreal a second and a fourth for Scandella (I rate Chiarot more than Scandella). A first round pick is likely overly optimistic unless there turns out to be a cap tied suitor who really likes Chiarot's overall profile (big, skates, playoff nasty) and is willing to pony up a little more juice in the event that Montreal retains money to help them out. Chiarot is a great dude and I actually do not dislike him as a player, but I think common sense (hopefully Bergevin sees it) says Montreal is entering a 2-3 year period of cap hell and keeping Chiarot is simply not a "luxury" the roster can afford. Moreover, isn't the point of drafting and developing kids ultimately to replace some vets on the wrong side of 30 with younger, cheaper players? That's the way it is supposed to be. Plus with Savard and Edmundson, it makes a 3rd kind of redundant. You can never have enough stay at home defensemen. Last playoffs, they had 4 of them in the top 4. (yes that's sarcasm). |
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Post by Andrew on Nov 25, 2021 12:08:47 GMT -5
The hope is that some GM was enamored with Chiarot's physical game in last year's finals run, imaging that he could bring a missing ingredient to their blueline come spring. That and some combination of injuries or weak rental market could bolster his value.
That said I agree that he's a good guy and serviceable player. There's just no way we can hang on to him when we already have Savard and Edmundson.
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Post by frozone on Nov 25, 2021 12:58:39 GMT -5
The hope is that some GM was enamored with Chiarot's physical game in last year's finals run, imaging that he could bring a missing ingredient to their blueline come spring. That and some combination of injuries or weak rental market could bolster his value. That said I agree that he's a good guy and serviceable player. There's just no way we can hang on to him when we already have Savard and Edmundson. Not that I think Chiarot will be a lock for a 1st round return, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if we got one. He's no PMD, but he's been a great signing in terms of value. A couple of years ago he scored 9 goals on a shooting percentage which is still very much reproducible. And this year, when his shooting percentage settles back down to earth, I would think that he'll be somewhere around 8 goals again. On top of that, I have a sneaky suspicion that his recent PP time is designed more to boost his stats than it is to win games. It also really helps that he was instrumental in our playoff run last year. So as long as supply/demand works in our favour, Berg has some good leverage for his negotiations. |
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Nov 25, 2021 14:19:50 GMT -5
The hope is that some GM was enamored with Chiarot's physical game in last year's finals run, imaging that he could bring a missing ingredient to their blueline come spring. That and some combination of injuries or weak rental market could bolster his value. That said I agree that he's a good guy and serviceable player. There's just no way we can hang on to him when we already have Savard and Edmundson. Not that I think Chiarot will be a lock for a 1st round return, I wouldn't be at all surprised if we got one. He's no PMD, but he's been a great signing in terms of value. A couple of years ago he scored 9 goals on a shooting percentage which is still very much reproducible. And this year, when his shooting percentage settles back down to earth, I would think that he'll be somewhere around 8 goals again. On top of that, I have a sneaky suspicion that his recent PP time is designed more to boost his stats than it is to win games. It also really helps that he was instrumental in our playoff run last year. So as long as supply/demand works in our favour, Berg has some good leverage for his negotiations. I like Chiarot and think he is a good defenseman depending on your expectations, they are not all going to be Bobby Orr. I also think he is a good team guy for the younger guys to be around and would prefer keeping him over Savard and Kulak. However with his contract status, and the Habs not getting better, I think he would leave anyway as a UFA, so trade him when you can. I would like instead of picking up a dozen more draft picks, try to get a couple of other teams better prospects that are a couple of years older and closer to NHL ready. Quality over quantity. |
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Post by frozone on Nov 25, 2021 18:39:02 GMT -5
Not that I think Chiarot will be a lock for a 1st round return, I wouldn't be at all surprised if we got one. He's no PMD, but he's been a great signing in terms of value. A couple of years ago he scored 9 goals on a shooting percentage which is still very much reproducible. And this year, when his shooting percentage settles back down to earth, I would think that he'll be somewhere around 8 goals again. On top of that, I have a sneaky suspicion that his recent PP time is designed more to boost his stats than it is to win games. It also really helps that he was instrumental in our playoff run last year. So as long as supply/demand works in our favour, Berg has some good leverage for his negotiations. I like Chiarot and think he is a good defenseman depending on your expectations, they are not all going to be Bobby Orr. I also think he is a good team guy for the younger guys to be around and would prefer keeping him over Savard and Kulak. However with his contract status, and the Habs not getting better, I think he would leave anyway as a UFA, so trade him when you can. I would like instead of picking up a dozen more draft picks, try to get a couple of other teams better prospects that are a couple of years older and closer to NHL ready. Quality over quantity. That's not a bad idea. We may have better luck going after another Suzuki than we would have with another #3 pick. |
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Post by folatre on Nov 25, 2021 21:37:13 GMT -5
Boys, I concur. I would rather get a kid that is on a trajectory a bit easier to read moving forward rather than just automatically accepting picks.
For example, if Lamoriello called and said 'hey Berg, things are a little tough right now, I'm prepared to give you the Brenden Dillon value deal (two second rounders) for Chiarot.' If I were Bergevin, I would say 'good offer but this is not moving the needle enough. Give me Big Sam Bolduc and a 2023 second rounder for Chiarot, a 2022 fourth, and 2022 seventh.'
In other words, I do not prefer two second picks despite the fact those are nice assets because second round picks ultimately hard to deliver on. Instead, I would try to hold the line in order to get a defined prospect and a pick.
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Post by Cranky on Nov 26, 2021 19:03:06 GMT -5
If Guhle is in the lineup next year, I rather trade Savard then Chiarot. I like Chariot's nastiness and willingness to dish it out.
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Post by folatre on Nov 27, 2021 10:09:25 GMT -5
Savard has three more years on his deal. Chiarot is a UFA in July. And Savard, at least right now with the way things are going, cannot be moved without Montreal retaining a chunk of salary or attaching a sweetener. So it is certainly nothing against Chiarot but inevitably he looks like the one to go.
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Post by jkr on Nov 27, 2021 13:12:41 GMT -5
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Post by jkr on Nov 27, 2021 13:16:29 GMT -5
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Post by folatre on Nov 27, 2021 15:25:51 GMT -5
The problem for Melnyk is that Murray is owed $15 million over the next two years. No one is taking him. And really a buyout in the summer is not going to be to Melnyk's liking either because Murray would get $10 million of the remainder and Ottawa would still have to pay some other goalie to be on the roster.
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Post by Cranky on Nov 27, 2021 17:16:19 GMT -5
Savard has three more years on his deal. Chiarot is a UFA in July. And Savard, at least right now with the way things are going, cannot be moved without Montreal retaining a chunk of salary or attaching a sweetener. So it is certainly nothing against Chiarot but inevitably he looks like the one to go. While true, I still think Chiarot is the better defensman. Probably also age better then Savard. I didn't like the Savard signing but it fell under "better then nothing" since Weber is "somewhat retired". If Weber held on for one more year, we could of had his replacement ready to join (yes, I dream the Guhle dream). |
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Post by Cranky on Nov 27, 2021 17:21:05 GMT -5
That gives us a high 20 pick and a whole lot of question marks if he ever makes it to the NHL. I would beg and add to get Bouchard or Broberg. Even dangle Norlinder to do that. |
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Nov 27, 2021 18:40:54 GMT -5
Savard has three more years on his deal. Chiarot is a UFA in July. And Savard, at least right now with the way things are going, cannot be moved without Montreal retaining a chunk of salary or attaching a sweetener. So it is certainly nothing against Chiarot but inevitably he looks like the one to go. While true, I still think Chiarot is the better defensman. Probably also age better then Savard. I didn't like the Savard signing but it fell under "better then nothing" since Weber is "somewhat retired". If Weber held on for one more year, we could of had his replacement ready to join (yes, I dream the Guhle dream). Guhle is a good dream. He has potential. Much more than Savard. I really hope he can reach his potential. |
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Post by Cranky on Nov 27, 2021 18:46:09 GMT -5
While true, I still think Chiarot is the better defensman. Probably also age better then Savard. I didn't like the Savard signing but it fell under "better then nothing" since Weber is "somewhat retired". If Weber held on for one more year, we could of had his replacement ready to join (yes, I dream the Guhle dream). Guhle is a good dream. He has potential. Much more than Savard. I really hope he can reach his potential. Maybe it's the aftereffect of liberal use of pharmaceuticals.....but I keep seeing Weber 2 in all his talents. Leader, canon of a shot, mean, nasty..... Other then Weber, I rather see him besides Chairot backing him up and showing the finer points of stickwork..... |
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Nov 29, 2021 13:39:13 GMT -5
Instead of the 1st rounder a guy like Raphael Lavoie or Dylan Holloway would be a better asking price. Oilers are deep at forward especially in the top 6 so both these guys could be expendable. Both can play center, are over 6ft and closer to NHL ready. We need guys with skill and not just pluggers. |
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