Price Untouchable - Hughes

[Disgruntled70sHab]

[folatre]

Thanks for sharing, Dis.

Since Hughes is at the very early stage of establishing how each player currently under contract fits into the club's future plans, I would not read too much into any comment.

Price has been the face of the franchise for over a decade so management is going to be respectful as it goes though the information gathering (his health, his desire to stay or go) phase of this process.

In my opinion, Price most likely remains a Hab because his contract (hyper bonus laden) is basically buyout proof and in a contemporary league of devalued goalies it would be nearly impossible to trade him without Montreal retaining fifty percent. And since Montreal does not have a cheap 1G heir apparent right now, retaining fifty percent would be crazy because Hughes would still have go out of throw down no less than $4 million annually to get a starter.

Gorton and Hughes are in a real cap predicament, but my sense is Price will not be the key to resolving it. I believe the dilemma will be resolved by subtracting two veteran wingers.

[habsorbed]

Price is untouchable by the organization because they have no options. Only way Price leaves is if he wants out and another team is prepared to take him on - which is unlikely. While I'm hoping Carey comes back next year and can be a top goalie, I'm starting to think that the quickest way to a rebuild is that Weber and Carey have career ending injuries.

[mikeg]

Price has played a LOT of hockey, I wouldn't be surprised if he goes the Weber route as well and retires earlier or becomes a permanent member of the LTIR club.

His contract is unmovable (thanks Bergy!) so Hughes is doing the right thing here, better to give the appearance of being on the player's side then to outright throw him under the bus.

[Boston_Habs]

Jan 28, 2022 8:00:04 GMT -5 mikeg said:

Price has played a LOT of hockey, I wouldn't be surprised if he goes the Weber route as well and retires earlier or becomes a permanent member of the LTIR club.

His contract is unmovable (thanks Bergy!) so Hughes is doing the right thing here, better to give the appearance of being on the player's side then to outright throw him under the bus.

The better way to put it is Price is untouchable "if he wants to be". I respect the management team for basically saying that if/when Price is healthy and wants to stay in Montreal then that's his choice.

I personally think we can work around Carey when it comes to the rebuild. I'm sure other contracts will get moved and Price, while massively overpaid, may not be as big an anchor on the cap as we might think.

[HABsurd]

I am baffled by this situation. A player cannot play because of a drug problem and this is not considered a breach of contract? What if he continually relapses any thus never plays again?

[seventeen]

Jan 27, 2022 23:00:23 GMT -5 folatre said:

Thanks for sharing, Dis.

Since Hughes is at the very early stage of establishing how each player currently under contract fits into the club's future plans, I would not read too much into any comment.

Price has been the face of the franchise for over a decade so management is going to be respectful as it goes though the information gathering (his health, his desire to stay or go) phase of this process.

In my opinion, Price most likely remains a Hab because his contract (hyper bonus laden) is basically buyout proof and in a contemporary league of devalued goalies it would be nearly impossible to trade him without Montreal retaining fifty percent. And since Montreal does not have a cheap 1G heir apparent right now, retaining fifty percent would be crazy because Hughes would still have go out of throw down no less than $4 million annually to get a starter.

Gorton and Hughes are in a real cap predicament, but my sense is Price will not be the key to resolving it. I believe the dilemma will be resolved by subtracting two veteran wingers.

Good assessment, folatre. Additionally, with the above in mind, isn't the most positive outcome regarding Price, to have him come back and play at a reasonable level? The best way to do that is get him healed and boost his confidence with comments like "Price is untouchable". That's quite different from "Carey, how about we leave you unprotected in the expansion draft?"

I'm liking this Hughes guy.

[Skilly]

I agree Price is untouchable … if you touch him he misses 60 games

[Skilly]

Jan 28, 2022 12:32:25 GMT -5 HABsurd said:

I am baffled by this situation. A player cannot play because of a drug problem and this is not considered a breach of contract? What if he continually relapses any thus never plays again?

Drug usage is covered by the CBA. There is a graduated punishment clause. Since Price volunteered to enter the program , he is considered a first time offender.

[Cranky]

Jan 28, 2022 12:32:25 GMT -5 HABsurd said:

I am baffled by this situation. A player cannot play because of a drug problem and this is not considered a breach of contract? What if he continually relapses any thus never plays again?

There are steps in the union agreement before he's in breach of his contract.

And he's playing the media and fans like a pupppetmaster. "His dark place" is code for...you can't question me or my addiction.

[Cranky]

Jan 28, 2022 19:22:20 GMT -5 Skilly said:

I agree Price is untouchable … if you touch him he misses 60 games

No light must enter the darkness.....

[Cranky]

He better not hire Julien. There may be a black hole developing between those two shiney objects...

[The Habitual Fan]

You know just let Carey get his health in order, mentally and physically, and then see what happens. It is a lost season so if he wants to play a few games before the year is over then fine, if not let him stay off until next season. His value right now is almost zero and no team is going to take a chance until he is better.
He needs to come back next season and prove himself, and then maybe he gets moved, but not before that. I wouldn't entertain any offers because they will be lower than his worth.

As for goalies can we send down Primeau and and put Monty on waivers, and bring up Poulin and McNevin? Primeau needs to be playing in Laval and not getting pulled in every game he starts so he can get his confidence back. If Monty clears waivers then send him down too.

Kevin Poulin has NHL experience and was intended to be the back up once. He would love another NHL shot and McNevin doesn't seem to be in the Habs long term plans, so if he gets shelled there is no harm done to a prospect.

Primeau and Monty couldn't win now if they both played in net at the same time.

[jkr]

Love that last line THF.

[CentreHice]

Whose fault is it that we have a dry goaltender pipeline behind Price?

Who continually built rosters which needed Price to be at or near his world-beating best in order to enjoy any semblance of success...and which plummeted in his prolonged absence?

Tired of watching one-dimensional Habs' teams.

The new regime has to eventually "Show me the (elite) players."

[jkr]

Feb 1, 2022 10:08:09 GMT -5 CentreHice said:

Whose fault is it that we have a dry goaltender pipeline behind Price?

Who continually built rosters which needed Price to be at or near his world-beating best in order to enjoy any semblance of success...and which plummeted in his prolonged absence?










Tired of watching one-dimensional Habs' teams.

The new regime has to eventually "Show me the (elite) players."

Maybe it's time for them to look outside the organization for their goaltending future. I dont have a lot of confidence from the guys I've seen this season.

[seventeen]

Feb 1, 2022 8:48:42 GMT -5 The Habitual Fan said:

Y

Primeau and Monty couldn't win now if they both played in net at the same time.

Certainly not with that defense and that disciplined system in front of them. They haven't been good, but wow, is the team giving up great scoring chances or what?

[seventeen]

Feb 1, 2022 10:08:09 GMT -5 CentreHice said:

Whose fault is it that we have a dry goaltender pipeline behind Price?

Who continually built rosters which needed Price to be at or near his world-beating best in order to enjoy any semblance of success...and which plummeted in his prolonged absence?

Tired of watching one-dimensional Habs' teams.

The new regime has to eventually "Show me the (elite) players.

They have always been reactive rather than looking ahead. Ottawa wins a playoff series and they have to get bigger and badder (and slower). They went how long before drafting a centre in the first round (Poehling, after Chucky in Berg's first year). Then it was RHD's, then LHD's and now they're back to being weak at RHD.

Yes, MB had an aversion to elite players. Subban and Radulov didn't last long and he made no effort to keep Markov. No need to discuss his lack of effort at obtaining elite players. He wasn't even willing to trade for a slightly better than average centre to displace Desharnais and move Pleks to #2C.

Then there's his hires as coaches to start his tenure. I can't think of two worse men to handle players than Therrien and Lefebvre.

Whew, the nightmare is over, but we still have to recover from PTSD and that will take a couple of years.

[Willie Dog]

Feb 1, 2022 13:26:54 GMT -5 seventeen said:

Then there's his hires as coaches to start his tenure. I can't think of two worse men to handle players than Therrien and Lefebvre.

Whew, the nightmare is over, but we still have to recover from PTSD and that will take a couple of years.

BTLSD... Bergevin Therrien Lefebvre Stress Disorder

MTHead
Burgerbrain
Because Clod
Because Dom

The last 3 I have copyrighted. 😊

[Skilly]

Feb 1, 2022 10:08:09 GMT -5 CentreHice said:

Whose fault is it that we have a dry goaltender pipeline behind Price?

Who continually built rosters which needed Price to be at or near his world-beating best in order to enjoy any semblance of success...and which plummeted in his prolonged absence?

Tired of watching one-dimensional Habs' teams.

The new regime has to eventually "Show me the (elite) players."

Once upon a time they drafted Zachary Fucale for this purpose, but refused to put him in net .....then when they lost him, they suddenly needed someone who could play 30-40 games cause poor ol Pricey can't play 60 games anymore.

[Skilly]

Feb 1, 2022 13:18:21 GMT -5 seventeen said:

Feb 1, 2022 8:48:42 GMT -5 The Habitual Fan said:

Y

Primeau and Monty couldn't win now if they both played in net at the same time.

Certainly not with that defense and that disciplined system in front of them. They haven't been good, but wow, is the team giving up great scoring chances or what?

I read somewhere that Ricardo's save percentage in his last 5 games (I think that was the timeframe?) is below 0.750 .... 0.750!!!!!

[Skilly]

Feb 1, 2022 13:26:54 GMT -5 seventeen said:

Feb 1, 2022 10:08:09 GMT -5 CentreHice said:

Whose fault is it that we have a dry goaltender pipeline behind Price?

Who continually built rosters which needed Price to be at or near his world-beating best in order to enjoy any semblance of success...and which plummeted in his prolonged absence?

Tired of watching one-dimensional Habs' teams.

The new regime has to eventually "Show me the (elite) players.

They have always been reactive rather than looking ahead. Ottawa wins a playoff series and they have to get bigger and badder (and slower). They went how long before drafting a centre in the first round (Poehling, after Chucky in Berg's first year). Then it was RHD's, then LHD's and now they're back to being weak at RHD.

Yes, MB had an aversion to elite players. Subban and Radulov didn't last long and he made no effort to keep Markov. No need to discuss his lack of effort at obtaining elite players. He wasn't even willing to trade for a slightly better than average centre to displace Desharnais and move Pleks to #2C.

Then there's his hires as coaches to start his tenure. I can't think of two worse men to handle players than Therrien and Lefebvre.

Whew, the nightmare is over, but we still have to recover from PTSD and that will take a couple of years.

Evaluating Desharnais as a second line centre was not the most egregious evaluation .... evaluating Danault as a first line centre to the detriment of developing draft picks was

[seventeen]

Feb 1, 2022 18:54:02 GMT -5 Skilly said:

Evaluating Desharnais as a second line centre was not the most egregious evaluation .... evaluating Danault as a first line centre to the detriment of developing draft picks was

Yes, it could have been worse, but ideally a centre who could put up more points than Pleks at #1C, Pleks at 2C and then Desharnais would have been much better. The guy wouldn't have to be elite, but our centre spot would have been much stronger. Especially that stretch where we had Subban, Markov, Petry and Price at a high level.

[Cranky]

We don't really have a back-up to Price and I'm starting to think that Primeau is a bottom level future starter.

Price has the Habs wrapped around his pinkie....and no future for the team for the duration of his contract....

[folatre]

I will preface this by saying Montreal is a historically awful team and I am not an expert on the minutia of goalie play. However, I believe that it is premature to say Primeau is not on a trajectory to be a solid 1G in the NHL down the line.

He is 22 years old, which is quite young, and has been quite good in the AHL this season. Goalies generally need plenty of time to hone their craft, accumulate a ton of reps, and learn to overcome the kind of adversity that comes with the position.

Examples abound. At Primeau's age, Demko had not yet played in an NHL game. With zero NHL resume Binnington literally came out of nowhere at age 25. Ben Bishop did not start his 50th NHL game until he was 27 years old. He was big and lanky, and hey he turned out okay. Jack Campbell was 26 years old before he made his 20th start in the league. At the goalie position there are dozens of respectable NHL starters in the 21st century who barely got a cup of coffee in the league before they hit their mid-20s. That is the nature of maturation and development at the position.

Primeau has plenty of work on, don't get me wrong. He clearly needs to track the puck better and cut down on his early movement. But to be honest, I think that Price would be getting lit up in front of this sad sack roster executing God knows what system Ducharme is insisting with.

[Willie Dog]

Feb 1, 2022 19:38:50 GMT -5 seventeen said:

Feb 1, 2022 18:54:02 GMT -5 Skilly said:

Evaluating Desharnais as a second line centre was not the most egregious evaluation .... evaluating Danault as a first line centre to the detriment of developing draft picks was

Yes, it could have been worse, but ideally a centre who could put up more points than Pleks at #1C, Pleks at 2C and then Desharnais would have been much better. The guy wouldn't have to be elite, but our centre spot would have been much stronger. Especially that stretch where we had Subban, Markov, Petry and Price at a high level.

And Patches iirc

[The Habitual Fan]

Feb 1, 2022 22:48:57 GMT -5 folatre said:

I will preface this by saying Montreal is a historically awful team and I am not an expert on the minutia of goalie play. However, I believe that it is premature to say Primeau is not on a trajectory to be a solid 1G in the NHL down the line.

He is 22 years old, which is quite young, and has been quite good in the AHL this season. Goalies generally need plenty of time to hone their craft, accumulate a ton of reps, and learn to overcome the kind of adversity that comes with the position.

Examples abound. At Primeau's age, Demko had not yet played in an NHL game. With zero NHL resume Binnington literally came out of nowhere at age 25. Ben Bishop did not start his 50th NHL game until he was 27 years old. He was big and lanky, and hey he turned out okay. Jack Campbell was 26 years old before he made his 20th start in the league. At the goalie position there are dozens of respectable NHL starters in the 21st century who barely got a cup of coffee in the league before they hit their mid-20s. That is the nature of maturation and development at the position.

Primeau has plenty of work on, don't get me wrong. He clearly needs to track the puck better and cut down on his early movement. But to be honest, I think that Price would be getting lit up in front of this sad sack roster executing God knows what system Ducharme is insisting with.

I agree and my point was Primeau (or Caulfield) should not be in Montreal right now and put in the situation they are. They are not be showcased for a trade but under a lot of pressure to try and play well. Montreal have guys under contract that they never play on developing so put them in the line up and let the other two get lots of top minutes in Laval, away from the spotlight and madness.

[Cranky]

Feb 1, 2022 22:48:57 GMT -5 folatre said:

I will preface this by saying Montreal is a historically awful team and I am not an expert on the minutia of goalie play. However, I believe that it is premature to say Primeau is not on a trajectory to be a solid 1G in the NHL down the line.

He is 22 years old, which is quite young, and has been quite good in the AHL this season. Goalies generally need plenty of time to hone their craft, accumulate a ton of reps, and learn to overcome the kind of adversity that comes with the position.

Examples abound. At Primeau's age, Demko had not yet played in an NHL game. With zero NHL resume Binnington literally came out of nowhere at age 25. Ben Bishop did not start his 50th NHL game until he was 27 years old. He was big and lanky, and hey he turned out okay. Jack Campbell was 26 years old before he made his 20th start in the league. At the goalie position there are dozens of respectable NHL starters in the 21st century who barely got a cup of coffee in the league before they hit their mid-20s. That is the nature of maturation and development at the position.

Primeau has plenty of work on, don't get me wrong. He clearly needs to track the puck better and cut down on his early movement. But to be honest, I think that Price would be getting lit up in front of this sad sack roster executing God knows what system Ducharme is insisting with.

One can easily make a case with a pile of examples that the reverse is true.

So far....not impressed. Can he turn out to be a starter? Probably. A top starter? Only thru hope.

This season was his to prove that he was at least backup material instead of the Monty the Clown, yet here we are. It's not exactly much of a high bar to prove he's better then a waiver wire reject that belongs in tbe ECHL.

Lots of hope...sure....but....at some point it's show me.

[seventeen]

Feb 2, 2022 16:39:51 GMT -5 Cranky said:

So far....not impressed. Can he turn out to be a starter? Probably. A top starter? Only thru hope.

This season was his to prove that he was at least backup material instead of the Monty the Clown, yet here we are. It's not exactly much of a high bar to prove he's better then a waiver wire reject that belongs in tbe ECHL.

Lots of hope...sure....but....at some point it's show me.

True, but goalies are aliens.  A goalie prospect can look great one year, suck the next and then look great again the following year.  I don't try to predict goalie development because it's so variable.  All you can do is draft a lot of them and hope one pans out.  They don't have to be high picks either.  Holtby was a 4th round pick, Binnington a 3rd round pick.  Matt Murray a 3rd round pick, Corey Crawford a 2nd round pick, Jonathan Quick a 3rd rounder and Tim Thomas crawled out from under a rock with a wad of horseshoes up his.....I digress.  Basically except for Vasilevsky, every Stanley Cup winning goalie going back at least 10 years was drafted out of the first round.  Niemi wasn't even drafted, Thomas was a 9th round pick, ergo the horseshoes. 

[The Habitual Fan]

Feb 3, 2022 0:33:41 GMT -5 seventeen said:

Feb 2, 2022 16:39:51 GMT -5 Cranky said:

So far....not impressed. Can he turn out to be a starter? Probably. A top starter? Only thru hope.

This season was his to prove that he was at least backup material instead of the Monty the Clown, yet here we are. It's not exactly much of a high bar to prove he's better then a waiver wire reject that belongs in tbe ECHL.

Lots of hope...sure....but....at some point it's show me.

True, but goalies are aliens.  A goalie prospect can look great one year, suck the next and then look great again the following year.  I don't try to predict goalie development because it's so variable.  All you can do is draft a lot of them and hope one pans out.  They don't have to be high picks either.  Holtby was a 4th round pick, Binnington a 3rd round pick.  Matt Murray a 3rd round pick, Corey Crawford a 2nd round pick, Jonathan Quick a 3rd rounder and Tim Thomas crawled out from under a rock with a wad of horseshoes up his.....I digress.  Basically except for Vasilevsky, every Stanley Cup winning goalie going back at least 10 years was drafted out of the first round.  Niemi wasn't even drafted, Thomas was a 9th round pick, ergo the horseshoes. 

I have been a goalie and around all my life so I am going to disagree with you on this. Granted there are not of goalies taken in the first round mostly because finding an elite goalie is difficult to do. Price is still one of the best technical goalies in the league. Vasilisky, Fleury, Luongo, Samsonov, Rask, Ward, Brodeur were all first round picks.
All of these goalies have been able to carry their teams for years, in many cases taking them from a good/average team to a contender. Would the Bruins or Canes have won a cup without Rask or Ward. Likely not. Would Vegas/Pittsburg, Vancouver, New Jersey and even Montreal have made it deep in the playoffs without their goalies?
Guys like Knight and Askarov and still very elite prospects that will be in the NHL soon, time will tell how they pan out, but I suspect they will do well.
The difference in an elite goalie and a good goalie is probably about 5 wins a year, but those wins are what will separate a good team from a playoff contender year after year. You can compare it to a guy that scores 30 goals a year over a guy that scores 20. Over a year that is very little in percentage difference, but the end result is huge.