Habs #2 on Hockeysfuture organizational rankings

[habmeister]

maybe now we can be done with the same old: "these prospects are no better than any in the past decade, it's always everyone getting excited about all of our prospects like they're sure things..." yada yada yada. we have a great farm system, the 2nd best up from 6th best last season.

there is no denying it anymore and the nhl club will bear the fruits over the next couple of seasons!

its about time!

hockeysfuture.com/articles/9672

[Skilly]

The thing about potential is that it could potentially be bad.

[BadCompany]

Didn't they have us first a few years back, when we had Hainsey, Hossa, Balej, Garon, Chouinard, Ribeiro, Tarasov, Enqvist, Buturlin, and a host of others?

[habmeister]

would you rather we be 30th skilly?

[HabSolute]

skilly said:

The thing about potential is that it could potentially be bad.

I sure prefer OUR potential over the Leafs potential...

[Deleted]

Don't some of you get tired of being constantly negative?

[habmeister]

mattdhf said:

Don't some of you get tired of being constantly negative?

believe it or not buddy, some people live their whole lives that way and actually feed off of it.

please don't psycho analyze that statement, it is what it is. we can choose to let them bring us down, or ignore them and focus on the others on here that are positive. i chose the latter long ago, otherwise i would have left this place permanently.

anyway, can't wait to see saint carey price in between the pipes!!

[Skilly]

habmeister said:

would you rather we be 30th skilly?

No. I would not rather us be 30th. But just because we are 2nd, does not mean the future is guaranteed. It is one person's/organization's opinion on all 30 teams. All I am saying is potential means nothing unless it is realized.

Looking back over the last 10 years, we have had oodles of potential, it has been streaming out of our ears ... and we let it rot in the AHL, and finish 7th, 8th, 9th, or 10th in the standings. What's the good of having Hainsey, Beauchemin, and Robidas in the system if we aren't going to use them? What's the use of having Locke, Grabovski, Kostys, O'Byrne , etc etc if there is no spot for them, or we refuse to use them? What's the use of having Emelin or Valentenko if they aren't coming over? The only two prospects we have had the last 10 years that we "did" anything with has been Balej and Latendresse. Komi might turn into a gold mine too, now mind you .... but the jury is still out.

As of right now, we have, what, 15 "great" prospects? - (you know the farm better than me) ... we have maybe 3 spots on the team, and two may be defense spots. I would prefer to use them to get a player we will use, then to rest on our laurels with potential.

That's all ... and sorry if that offend all the "optimists" .. but if there were no balance (you know ying-yang) than what would be the sense of discussion. And the superstitious guy in me remembers two distinctive "happy go lucky threads" last year, and then ka-boom, the arse feel out of the team ...... balance mon frere.

[Skilly]

habsolute said:

skilly said:

The thing about potential is that it could potentially be bad.

I sure prefer OUR potential over the Leafs potential...

I love our potential too .....

But looking at it from a physics point of view ... potential energy is useless unless you intend to move the object!

[BadCompany]

mattdhf said:

Don't some of you get tired of being constantly negative?

Nope!



In all honesty I think it’s a real bad case of “fool me once…” going on. We’ve missed the playoffs what, 6 of the last 8 years now? What other teams have that record of futility? They keep telling us that things are going to be okay, that the management team is on top of things, that we’ve drafted “the best guys in the draft” that the kids are coming along, that free agents want to play here, that everything is hunky-dory, y’all just chill… After all, our farm team lost in the 7th game of the Calder Cup final not too long ago, surely that means brighter days are ahead? Who was on that team?

But the truth is, we finished a mere four points ahead of the Florida Panthers, with virtually the same goals for and goals against records. The Florida Freaking Panthers. Our free agent signings have been busts, by and large, our trades only marginally better, and while the NHL kids look okay, none is a true franchise player. With the possible exception of Price, none of our AHL guys look like franchise players either. Our free agent situation is “delicate” to say the least. It is going to take some real home runs in the next few months and/or years to get us out of this cycle of mediocrity.

I thought last year’s team was capable of big things. So there, I did my optimism thing. Even up until the deadline I was convinced this was a third round team. I still believe that with the right moves made at the deadline, we could have finished sixth, knocked off the Atlanta Thrashers, upset the Buffalo Sabres and faced off against the Ottawa Senators in the Conference Finals. Granted, they would have whupped us, but being a Conference Finalist is a lot more appealing, than just edging out the Florida Panthers for that illustrious 12th overall pick. I believed, and said as much, that the Habs HAD to go for it last year, because last year was their best chance to create some positive energy around the team, to break out of the Florida Panthers/New York Islander/Phoenix Coyotes group we’re currently lumped together with. Winning begets winning. Winning organizations draw winning players. We didn’t win, and yet somehow we expect that things are going to be hunky-dory next year? That the free agents are going to flock here? That the kids are going to break out, that we can trade away the malcontents and underachievers for positive returns, that all will be, again, hunky-dory?

Six playoffs missed, in the last eight years. What category of teams does that put us in with? Florida, Columbus, Phoenix… When was the last time we finished higher than 7th?? 1996-97?? Excuse me while I gag. We don’t need to create any negativity, the team does it all by itself. I am not one of those “remember the dynasty!” types, as I wasn’t even around for them, but I lived through a couple of decades of Expos mediocrity, and I know it’s not an easy cycle to break out of. I’m tired of it, and until they show me otherwise, until they prove things are different… well, no more fooling me.

[Skilly]

badcompany said:

mattdhf said:

Don't some of you get tired of being constantly negative?

Nope!



In all honesty I think it’s a real bad case of “fool me once…” going on. We’ve missed the playoffs what, 6 of the last 8 years now? What other teams have that record of futility? They keep telling us that things are going to be okay, that the management team is on top of things, that we’ve drafted “the best guys in the draft” that the kids are coming along, that free agents want to play here, that everything is hunky-dory, y’all just chill… After all, our farm team lost in the 7th game of the Calder Cup final not too long ago, surely that means brighter days are ahead? Who was on that team?

But the truth is, we finished a mere four points ahead of the Florida Panthers, with virtually the same goals for and goals against records. The Florida Freaking Panthers. Our free agent signings have been busts, by and large, our trades only marginally better, and while the NHL kids look okay, none is a true franchise player. With the possible exception of Price, none of our AHL guys look like franchise players either. Our free agent situation is “delicate” to say the least. It is going to take some real home runs in the next few months and/or years to get us out of this cycle of mediocrity.

I thought last year’s team was capable of big things. So there, I did my optimism thing. Even up until the deadline I was convinced this was a third round team. I still believe that with the right moves made at the deadline, we could have finished sixth, knocked off the Atlanta Thrashers, upset the Buffalo Sabres and faced off against the Ottawa Senators in the Conference Finals. Granted, they would have whupped us, but being a Conference Finalist is a lot more appealing, than just edging out the Florida Panthers for that illustrious 12th overall pick. I believed, and said as much, that the Habs HAD to go for it last year, because last year was their best chance to create some positive energy around the team, to break out of the Florida Panthers/New York Islander/Phoenix Coyotes group we’re currently lumped together with. Winning begets winning. Winning organizations draw winning players. We didn’t win, and yet somehow we expect that things are going to be hunky-dory next year? That the free agents are going to flock here? That the kids are going to break out, that we can trade away the malcontents and underachievers for positive returns, that all will be, again, hunky-dory?

Six playoffs missed, in the last eight years. What category of teams does that put us in with? Florida, Columbus, Phoenix… When was the last time we finished higher than 7th?? 1996-97?? Excuse me while I gag. We don’t need to create any negativity, the team does it all by itself. I am not one of those “remember the dynasty!” types, as I wasn’t even around for them, but I lived through a couple of decades of Expos mediocrity, and I know it’s not an easy cycle to break out of. I’m tired of it, and until they show me otherwise, until they prove things are different… well, no more fooling me.

Beautiful post ... and I couldn't have said it better myself ... reallyI couldnt

I too was on the "go for it this year bus" and I was THE ONLY person on here that predicted that the Habs were going to win the Norteast. (I was lookinglike a genius early on in the year) ... I did my optimism as well, and now I se the same type of system we had 7-8 years ago when the farm was making runs at the title .... until I see the potential realized in Montreal, I don't see the point in getting excited because another city is reaping the fruits of our labour (Hamilton).

[Disgruntled70sHab]

I won't be making any trips to Montreal unless there's a deal to be had. The base here offers 2nd-level seats, transport to and from Kingston and all you can eat for $90/ticket.

I really wanted to get a HabsRus thing going this year but I can't substantiate paying full price for the ticket, hotel room, et al. In short, I don't have the motivation or desire to do any of this.

Not that I wouldn't mind throwing back a few pints with the HRS brotherhood but it's now up to the Habs to bring me back.

That's at the club level. I won't even start to say what I think about the NHL level.

Cheers.

[habmeister]

this is what i think. we have a wealth of quality prospects that can fill our 2nd-4th lines at prices of less than $1million/season for the next couple of seasons. bob handcuffed us by signing and overpaying a few key players: kovalev, samsonov, boullion and dandy are the four contracts that i really don't like. if he could magically shed those four players and replace them with 4 guys who at the very least are good value for their contracts then we'd be in a lot better situation.

i also don't believe that we have any prospects capable of 40-50 goals, and only a few capable of 30 goals. i don't count ryder as a prospect anymore, he's getting old and close to ufa. what we do have with our prospects is a lot of quality character guys and a lot of really good skill guys who are learning that you have to play both ends and hard to get a callup.

we've seen a lot of prospects get called up the last 2 seasons that not only didn't look out of place but actually looked nhl-ready and now its up to bob to make room for them. i can't remember the last time we had this many prospects get a callup and look really good: higgins, pleks, lats, grabs, lap, kosty... when was the last time we had that many kids that are that good?

i also watch the system closer than most on here, as i get more out of watching junior hockey than the nhl in a lot of ways. i have complete faith in timmins to continue to stock our cupboard with quality players. i would like to see him hit a homerun and take a player this draft year with our 12th pick that ends up being the steal of the draft. we got lats in the 2nd round and that could be considered one of the steals of that draft year. i think it's time for him to stepup and try to hit a home run with every pick this season, we don't need anymore 3rd liners and 4-6th defencemen.

i'm not 100% sold on bob being the best trader when it comes to gm's. proof could be found in him not shopping rivet at all and possibly getting more for him, although i think what he got was very good for what he gave away.

i do believe after watching carey price play 5-7 times over the last few seasons, and watching what he is doing statistically at least in the ahl playoffs that we could have a top 5 goaltender in our pipeline and if that is the case with our wealth of quality prospects a few smart ufa signings, shedding some bad contracts this team is on the upswing in a big way. i don't see how we can possibly go down unless everything goes wrong, the kids that we've drafted in the past 5 years or so are good, and they're proving it.

now let's try not to look backward at what once was, and try to look forward at what they're capable of. this was a year that i consider a writeoff, with the flu and bob's daughter dying, and the turmoil caused by the russian cancers, huet's injury and aebischer's ineptness at stepping up.

i believe that carbo will be better, we will be healthier, higgins, pleks, lats will combine for 70+ goals and kosty will crack 20.

what it will come down to this summer for the immediate season upcoming is what about the defence. we do have good prospects, and i think 1 or 2 may have to be dealt to get 1 or 2 d-men that can play at a high level on our team.

the next 2 months are key to the 07-08 season, i'm not throwing in the towel on it yet.

[Doc Holliday]

badcompany said:

mattdhf said:

Don't some of you get tired of being constantly negative?

Nope!



In all honesty I think it’s a real bad case of “fool me once…” going on. We’ve missed the playoffs what, 6 of the last 8 years now? What other teams have that record of futility? They keep telling us that things are going to be okay, that the management team is on top of things, that we’ve drafted “the best guys in the draft” that the kids are coming along, that free agents want to play here, that everything is hunky-dory, y’all just chill… After all, our farm team lost in the 7th game of the Calder Cup final not too long ago, surely that means brighter days are ahead? Who was on that team?

But the truth is, we finished a mere four points ahead of the Florida Panthers, with virtually the same goals for and goals against records. The Florida Freaking Panthers. Our free agent signings have been busts, by and large, our trades only marginally better, and while the NHL kids look okay, none is a true franchise player. With the possible exception of Price, none of our AHL guys look like franchise players either. Our free agent situation is “delicate” to say the least. It is going to take some real home runs in the next few months and/or years to get us out of this cycle of mediocrity.

I thought last year’s team was capable of big things. So there, I did my optimism thing. Even up until the deadline I was convinced this was a third round team. I still believe that with the right moves made at the deadline, we could have finished sixth, knocked off the Atlanta Thrashers, upset the Buffalo Sabres and faced off against the Ottawa Senators in the Conference Finals. Granted, they would have whupped us, but being a Conference Finalist is a lot more appealing, than just edging out the Florida Panthers for that illustrious 12th overall pick. I believed, and said as much, that the Habs HAD to go for it last year, because last year was their best chance to create some positive energy around the team, to break out of the Florida Panthers/New York Islander/Phoenix Coyotes group we’re currently lumped together with. Winning begets winning. Winning organizations draw winning players. We didn’t win, and yet somehow we expect that things are going to be hunky-dory next year? That the free agents are going to flock here? That the kids are going to break out, that we can trade away the malcontents and underachievers for positive returns, that all will be, again, hunky-dory?

Six playoffs missed, in the last eight years. What category of teams does that put us in with? Florida, Columbus, Phoenix… When was the last time we finished higher than 7th?? 1996-97?? Excuse me while I gag. We don’t need to create any negativity, the team does it all by itself. I am not one of those “remember the dynasty!” types, as I wasn’t even around for them, but I lived through a couple of decades of Expos mediocrity, and I know it’s not an easy cycle to break out of. I’m tired of it, and until they show me otherwise, until they prove things are different… well, no more fooling me.

Bingo.

Being a fan isn't always about blind hope and leap of faiths.

Every year, yes every year, we read about how this guy or that guy is on the way. Not too long ago Perezhogin was a sure shot first line scoring machine, Emelin was a top 4 guy and Kostitsyn was the best pick of the draft. Perez became a marginal 3rd liner and has left the NHL altogether, Emelin has yet to start his NA development (and IMO never will) and Kostitsyn will turn 23 and is still not an NHL fixture, let alone a top 6 contributor, Kostitsyn Jr. could head back to Russia or return in the draft...

Meanwhile...

Ryder and Ribeiro were not suppose to amount to much and both are top 6 NHL players. Halak was on nobody's radar and he carried this team at the footstep of the playoffs, Higgins was a projected defensive 3rd liner and now he's arguably our best offensive winger.

Projections on prospects are for the most part completely random in terms of realization.

[Doc Holliday]

habmeister said:

the next 2 months are key to the 07-08 season, i'm not throwing in the towel on it yet.

I don't think anyone has thrown the towel yet but many are no longer cheeringly spinning the towel in the air based on what may happen...

[Yossarian]

docholliday said:

Being a fan isn't always about blind hope and leap of faiths.

Actually, in a way it is. Fan, short for fanatic, implies a certain degree of irrational thought and behaviour, which is sometimes all about blind hope and leaps of faith.

Having said that, its clear that although the organization is highly regarding in terms of prospect depth, other than Price, there are no potential superstars capable of carrying the franchise. If the team can be molded into the type of the late 80's and early 90's, with exceptional goaltending, and average to above average, but hard working talent otherwise, there is the hope to take the next step. Compared to the mediocrity of recent times, the hope for the future is promising. Stockpiling through the draft and development are how all successful franchises are built.

When Hamilton last went to the finals, it was with a team where key contributors were from Edmonton. It's essentially a lone Habs affiliate now. Things are somewhat different now, (notwithstanding the wasting of Beauchemin and Hainsey from that past finals team). While things looked good then, I would say they are substantially better now.

[habmeister]

yossarian said:

docholliday said:

Being a fan isn't always about blind hope and leap of faiths.

Actually, in a way it is. Fan, short for fanatic, implies a certain degree of irrational thought and behaviour, which is sometimes all about blind hope and leaps of faith.

Having said that, its clear that although the organization is highly regarding in terms of prospect depth, other than Price, there are no potential superstars capable of carrying the franchise. If the team can be molded into the type of the late 80's and early 90's, with exceptional goaltending, and average to above average, but hard working talent otherwise, there is the hope to take the next step. Compared to the mediocrity of recent times, the hope for the future is promising. Stockpiling through the draft and development are how all successful franchises are built.

When Hamilton last went to the finals, it was with a team where key contributors were from Edmonton. It's essentially a lone Habs affiliate now. Things are somewhat different now, (notwithstanding the wasting of Beauchemin and Hainsey from that past finals team). While things looked good then, I would say they are substantially better now.

bingo, it is our prospects that are in the final four, and it is price that is the front runner for playoff mvp. the last few seasons we've been splitting our farm team with the oilers, now that they are solely our prospects they're playing great. this is without either kosty and lats is young enough but not allowed to play on it. i don't think there is any doubt that there are some good players in our systems, some sure things, but no superstars or even stars. that is the problem that can hopefully be solved through free agency. i think it is better to have a bunch of depth prospects rather than 1 or 2 stars. just my opinion.

[seventeen]

I think you have to have the one guy that can score. If Price turns into another Roy or Brodeur, that's going to get us into the playoffs every year. If Carbo improves and learns to handle players a little better, that'll help. But to win the big one, we need a guy who can score. That's why I want us to take a really good run at Brad Richards. Young enough, good enough, and carries it into the playoffs.

[Doc Holliday]

seventeen said:

I think you have to have the one guy that can score. If Price turns into another Roy or Brodeur, that's going to get us into the playoffs every year. If Carbo improves and learns to handle players a little better, that'll help. But to win the big one, we need a guy who can score. That's why I want us to take a really good run at Brad Richards. Young enough, good enough, and carries it into the playoffs.

Price is at least a year or 2 away and even then, as Luongo proved, a franchsie goalie can't do it all. People often point to Roy for our success but Patrick, while an exceptional goalie, has been on very well balanced teams that had some definite fire power to it. I definitely agree with you that we need a warship (or 2) if we want to be competitive. The talent level of teams that made the playoffs is way better than ours and it's gonna take more than the Kostsysin brothers and Grabovsky to get us there.

[insomnius]

yossarian said:

docholliday said:

Being a fan isn't always about blind hope and leap of faiths.

Actually, in a way it is. Fan, short for fanatic, implies a certain degree of irrational thought and behaviour, which is sometimes all about blind hope and leaps of faith.

Yes! Well said!

[Doc Holliday]

yossarian said:

docholliday said:

Being a fan isn't always about blind hope and leap of faiths.

Actually, in a way it is. Fan, short for fanatic, implies a certain degree of irrational thought and behaviour, which is sometimes all about blind hope and leaps of faith.

I agree.

...but over a decade of mediocrity used up all of that certain degree I had.

[CentreHice]

Well said, BC. We've missed 5 of the last 8....6 of the last 12. Still the worst stretch in our illustrious history.

I'm generally an optimistic person....it's the underachieving whiners who drain it out of me when it comes to the Habs.

We've had "two in the bush" for quite a while, it seems....but have trouble getting that "bird in the hand".

I think the future is bright....we just need the on-ice attitude vampires out of the way.

[habmeister]

can someone explain to me how you can lump reggie houle's gm record in with bob's?

[Skilly]

habmeister said:

can someone explain to me how you can lump reggie houle's gm record in with bob's?

Certainly mon frere ....

Those who fail to acknowledge the past, are doomed to repeat it.

[habmeister]

skilly said:

habmeister said:

can someone explain to me how you can lump reggie houle's gm record in with bob's?

Certainly mon frere ....

Those who fail to acknowledge the past, are doomed to repeat it.

i wanted an explanation, not a famous quote skilly. so if we look to the past to see how mr. gainey did with his last team, i sure hope he not only acknowledge's but repeats it. that was a powerhouse he built, that is still rolling along nicely.

[habmeister]

centrehice said:

Well said, BC. We've missed 5 of the last 8....6 of the last 12. Still the worst stretch in our illustrious history.

i take what you are saying and spin it with: its hard to compare missing the playoffs when there were 16 of 21 making it and now only 16 of 30 make it. you're right, i'm getting used to missing the playoffs or barely squeaking in, the problem was management, i think that has been straightened out. that along with our scouting staff is a heck of a lot better now that it has been in recent memory.

i hope and believe that this will turn the franchise around. i believe last season, all excuses aside, that whatever could go wrong did go wrong, and i'm hoping that our team with be healthy both mentally and physically for the next few seasons.

come on up, the price is right!

[Skilly]

habmeister said:

skilly said:

Certainly mon frere ....

Those who fail to acknowledge the past, are doomed to repeat it.

i wanted an explanation, not a famous quote skilly. so if we look to the past to see how mr. gainey did with his last team, i sure hope he not only acknowledge's but repeats it. that was a powerhouse he built, that is still rolling along nicely.

The explanation is that although Houle was considered a bad GM by many, he had a good farm system (Robidas, Garon, Ribeiro, Ward, Beauchemin, Markov, Ryder, Hainsey, Hossa, Balej) .... the farm competed, had a few runs at the Calder Cup, and kept the local fans entertained. Of that bunch, only Ryder (who was never a prospect, an 8th rounder can't exactly be called a prospect) and Markov are still with the team and we virtually gave away Robidas, Ribeiro, Beauchemin, Hainesy and Hossa. The only prospect we used to try and bolster our roster for something we needed (a big centerman who can shut down the big dogs) was Garon.

Now today we have a full cupboard again. The same premise holds true ... we lack defense and we lack a scoring forward. Do we let these prospects rot, or do we either use them or trade them to bolster the roster. Right now we are at the cross-roads were we might lose prospects for nothing again (Locke, Perezhogin, both Kostys, Urquhart, Emelin, Valentenko, Linhart, Mikus). It all looks good on paper, but there s only so much room and if they aren't helping the Montreal Canadiens win, then they are bust picks IMO and no better than what happened in Houle's reign.

[habmeister]

yes i grant you that. the biggest difference between then and now is that in the new salary cap system its important to have young players that play for peanuts in your lineup. we shouldn't have a lack of nhl worthy youngsters for many years, so its now up to bob and the scouting staff to find us some scoring/defence. i believe that higgins, pleks, kosty and possibly grabovski/d'agostini will outscore ward/ryder/hossa/balej in their careers. what really bothers me is losing robidas and beauchemin for nothing. we can't have any more big mistakes like that if we want to move forward.

call me the rose coloured glasses boy if you will, but we do have a lot of quality prospects, we just don't have the superstars in the system. that needs to be fixed by taking bigger risks at the draft table. i think that started last season with fischer. i hope it continues in 07 and 08 and we get that gem that gets us 40+/season.

emelin is good enough to play in the show, i believe that after watching him 1 1/2 years ago at the world jrs here. valentenko i can't tell you much about, neither with o'byrne although timmins is high on him.