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Post by Willie Dog on Nov 26, 2022 9:25:53 GMT -5
Considering the great talent the habs have had in their history the fact the current 1st line did this is amazing
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Post by Skilly on Nov 26, 2022 9:37:59 GMT -5
I'm willing to bet it's the first time in club history with 3 rookie defensemen with 5 or more points after 20 games as well. And I doubt we've ever played with 4 rookie defensemen in the line-up before too. (Guhle, Xhekaj, Harris, Kovacevic)
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Post by habsorbed on Nov 26, 2022 12:12:34 GMT -5
Seeing such records is more a statement of just how depleted this team was after MB's tenure than how good the players are. Have the Habs ever had a first line composed of players under 25 who are also all on the PP. I remember the "Kid Line" (Mario, Doug, and Yvon) but they were the 3rd or 4th line after the vets who were all stars.
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Post by Skilly on Nov 26, 2022 13:01:39 GMT -5
Seeing such records is more a statement of just how depleted this team was after MB's tenure than how good the players are. Have the Habs ever had a first line composed of players under 25 who are also all on the PP. I remember the "Kid Line" (Mario, Doug, and Yvon) but they were the 3rd or 4th line after the vets who were all stars. Ryder-Ribeiro-Dagenais? Although I think Dagenais was 25 The only other under 25 line that I can think of in my lifetime was a second line of Savage-Koivu-Rucinsky (even when Bure played on it, they were all under 25) |
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Post by folatre on Nov 26, 2022 19:31:47 GMT -5
Fore sure, the first line and the rookies are what is making this season entertaining.
Management can obviously see that secondary scoring is a real issue, so looking ahead to 2023-24 it will be interesting to see if Gorton and Hughes simply treat it as a transition year where they opt to keep their powder dry (i.e. eschew top and middle-class UFAs). I suppose that would mean the main developments up front would perhaps be limited to:
-Graduating Slafkovasky to 15-16 minutes a night in a middle six and power play role;
-Giving guys such as Ylonen and Harvey-Pinard a real opportunity in what could be their last real chance to see if they are NHLers in the Montreal organization since 2024-25 should be when kids like Mysak, Mesar, Heineman, and Beck will realistically be ready to challenge for NHL roles.
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Post by habsorbed on Nov 26, 2022 19:53:50 GMT -5
HuGo's biggest task will not be getting mid 6 talent in. It will be getting rid of the players who are paid like top 6 that MB signed: Gally, Josh, Hoff.
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Post by Willie Dog on Nov 27, 2022 9:03:31 GMT -5
HuGo's biggest task will not be getting mid 6 talent in. It will be getting rid of the players who are paid like top 6 that MB signed: Gally, Josh, Hoff. Josh, will not be an issue, lots of teams want him... Hoffman should be easy to move, won't get much but he has 1 year after this at 4.5... bGal is unmoveable.. ltir is the only out Dads should be movable but won't get a lot... the fleecing will come when we move Edmunson and most importantly Monahan... hopefully Monahan can get back more than Chiarot did |
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Post by folatre on Nov 27, 2022 10:51:21 GMT -5
For me Hoffman would be moveable (for modest return) now if Hughes was willing to retain the max. However, Hughes is already on record stating that he will not retain money on non-expiring contracts. Of course, a guy like Edmundson would be a good test case of whether management is willing to modify their 'rule' provided the return was enticing enough.
In the best of times, small soft wingers like Dadonov and Drouin are not near the top of any teams' playoff shopping list. And given how little those two have shown this season, I am beginning to be at peace with the likelihood there will be no market for them even at 50 percent retention.
If Monahan can stay healthy and continue his solid play, there will be many suitors and the return will be substantial.
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Post by habsorbed on Nov 27, 2022 13:44:41 GMT -5
For me Hoffman would be moveable (for modest return) now if Hughes was willing to retain the max. However, Hughes is already on record stating that he will not retain money on non-expiring contracts. Of course, a guy like Edmundson would be a good test case of whether management is willing to modify their 'rule' provided the return was enticing enough. In the best of times, small soft wingers like Dadonov and Drouin are not near the top of any teams' playoff shopping list. And given how little those two have shown this season, I am beginning to be at peace with the likelihood there will be no market for them even at 50 percent retention. If Monahan can stay healthy and continue his solid play, there will be many suitors and the return will be substantial. Is salary retention an issue for Drouin, Dads or Monahan. They're all FAs at the end of the year. I'd retain their entire salary for the 5 or 6 final weeks of the season if the return is good. Indeed, retention will likely be Hugo's biggest asset as many of the Cup contenders will be up against the cap max and will need that as an incentive. These same teams will not be giving up core players we would want as they will want to keep them for their Cup run. So we will be getting picks and prospects which shouldn't impact our cap space. It will be a win/win/win by not having the deadbeats, Drouin and Dads on the team next year, free their cap space, and hopefully get some decent return. |
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Post by Willie Dog on Nov 27, 2022 14:14:41 GMT -5
We'll have 25 mill in cap space if we move and/or don't resign Drouin, Dads, Hoffman, Edmunson and Monahan. Plus Byron is 3.4 coming off the books even though he is on ltir
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Post by Skilly on Nov 27, 2022 16:04:50 GMT -5
For me Hoffman would be moveable (for modest return) now if Hughes was willing to retain the max. However, Hughes is already on record stating that he will not retain money on non-expiring contracts. Of course, a guy like Edmundson would be a good test case of whether management is willing to modify their 'rule' provided the return was enticing enough. In the best of times, small soft wingers like Dadonov and Drouin are not near the top of any teams' playoff shopping list. And given how little those two have shown this season, I am beginning to be at peace with the likelihood there will be no market for them even at 50 percent retention. If Monahan can stay healthy and continue his solid play, there will be many suitors and the return will be substantial. Is salary retention an issue for Drouin, Dads or Monahan. They're all FAs at the end of the year. I'd retain their entire salary for the 5 or 6 final weeks of the season if the return is good. Indeed, retention will likely be Hugo's biggest asset as many of the Cup contenders will be up against the cap max and will need that as an incentive. These same teams will not be giving up core players we would want as they will want to keep them for their Cup run. So we will be getting picks and prospects which shouldn't impact our cap space. It will be a win/win/win by not having the deadbeats, Drouin and Dads on the team next year, free their cap space, and hopefully get some decent return. I'm not sure MTL can do much salary retention. We have $833,000 on Alzner We have $1,100,000 on performance bonuses We are currently using $10,200,000 in LTIR We have $0 cap space projected to the end of the season I wonder how the League would look upon a team using LTIR and retaining salary for another team. That sounds like a big loop hole that needs closing |
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Post by folatre on Nov 27, 2022 18:11:14 GMT -5
Yeah, it is probably complicated with the bonus issues brewing. But that issue was there last season, plus Montreal was using LTIR all year long, and nevertheless Hughes retained money on Chiarot and Kulak.
My opinion is the league prefers to hold its nose because it is already hard enough to make big trades with a hard cap which has trended flat for three straight years and hockey fans like deadline activity.
The number of guys who can be on the books via buyout is three, I believe. And it also so happens that the number of players a club can retain money on is likewise three. So basically Alzner does not affect management's ability to retain on three guys in the runup to the deadline this season.
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Post by habsorbed on Nov 28, 2022 1:35:38 GMT -5
Is salary retention an issue for Drouin, Dads or Monahan. They're all FAs at the end of the year. I'd retain their entire salary for the 5 or 6 final weeks of the season if the return is good. Indeed, retention will likely be Hugo's biggest asset as many of the Cup contenders will be up against the cap max and will need that as an incentive. These same teams will not be giving up core players we would want as they will want to keep them for their Cup run. So we will be getting picks and prospects which shouldn't impact our cap space. It will be a win/win/win by not having the deadbeats, Drouin and Dads on the team next year, free their cap space, and hopefully get some decent return. I'm not sure MTL can do much salary retention. We have $833,000 on Alzner We have $1,100,000 on performance bonuses We are currently using $10,200,000 in LTIR We have $0 cap space projected to the end of the season I wonder how the League would look upon a team using LTIR and retaining salary for another team. That sounds like a big loop hole that needs closing As far as I know there is nothing stopping a team from doing that. And if it is a loop hole as you say, then it is legal. I can't see the league closing the loop hole mid-season. That would be unfair to a GM (HuGo) who may have developed a strategy based on the rules in place. HuGo took advantage of their low cap space when they picked up Monahan. If teams want to max out on the cap, then teams that don't want to should be able to take advantage of the situation. Vegas sure made some hay of the rules with the Weber deal. |
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Post by Willie Dog on Nov 28, 2022 10:30:25 GMT -5
HuGo's biggest task will not be getting mid 6 talent in. It will be getting rid of the players who are paid like top 6 that MB signed: Gally, Josh, Hoff. Josh, will not be an issue, lots of teams want him... Hoffman should be easy to move, won't get much but he has 1 year after this at 4.5... bGal is unmoveable.. ltir is the only out Dads should be movable but won't get a lot... the fleecing will come when we move Edmunson and most importantly Monahan... hopefully Monahan can get back more than Chiarot did Holland is looking for a Kane replacement,. wants an edgy forward www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/oilers-shopping-around-for-edgy-forwards/They are in Win Now mode. lets see if they'll give up their 1st unprotected or a guy like Maximus Warner plus... |
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Post by seventeen on Nov 28, 2022 15:19:28 GMT -5
I don't spend a great deal of time studying CAP, so I'm fairly ignorant on that topic. I think I got the point that you want to get as close to the CAP max before you place someone on LTIR. Does that then give you the option of taking on salary equal to the amount on LTIR? To put it in numbers, if Price and Byron combine for $13.9MM on LTIR (Hughes had us very close to the max), then we can take on additional salary of $13.9MM until one of those guys comes off LTIR and the we have to scramble to move their CAP salary or we're in trouble? Or if nothing has changed, and we place Drouin on LTIR, does that add an additional $5.5MM of CAP space for us to play with? That thinking seems about right cause it would explain Tampa's delay in declaring Kucherov fit for duty until the 2019/20 season ended, gaining them another $10MM in CAP space for the playoffs and cheating the rest of the league. How difficult is it to place someone on LTIR? A physical injury seems relatively easy, providing the NHL believes the team's doctors  , but what do they need for a mental health injury? |
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Post by Willie Dog on Nov 28, 2022 16:04:41 GMT -5
I don't spend a great deal of time studying CAP, so I'm fairly ignorant on that topic. I think I got the point that you want to get as close to the CAP max before you place someone on LTIR. Does that then give you the option of taking on salary equal to the amount on LTIR? To put it in numbers, if Price and Byron combine for $13.9MM on LTIR (Hughes had us very close to the max), then we can take on additional salary of $13.9MM until one of those guys comes off LTIR and the we have to scramble to move their CAP salary or we're in trouble? Or if nothing has changed, and we place Drouin on LTIR, does that add an additional $5.5MM of CAP space for us to play with? That thinking seems about right cause it would explain Tampa's delay in declaring Kucherov fit for duty until the 2019/20 season ended, gaining them another $10MM in CAP space for the playoffs and cheating the rest of the league. How difficult is it to place someone on LTIR? A physical injury seems relatively easy, providing the NHL believes the team's doctors , but what do they need for a mental health injury? The way i understand cap is you can only use ltir when you've used up your cap... Given the current environment I think a mental health claim would be harder to deny imo... |
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Post by Skilly on Nov 28, 2022 17:12:14 GMT -5
I don't spend a great deal of time studying CAP, so I'm fairly ignorant on that topic. I think I got the point that you want to get as close to the CAP max before you place someone on LTIR. Does that then give you the option of taking on salary equal to the amount on LTIR? To put it in numbers, if Price and Byron combine for $13.9MM on LTIR (Hughes had us very close to the max), then we can take on additional salary of $13.9MM until one of those guys comes off LTIR and the we have to scramble to move their CAP salary or we're in trouble? Or if nothing has changed, and we place Drouin on LTIR, does that add an additional $5.5MM of CAP space for us to play with? That thinking seems about right cause it would explain Tampa's delay in declaring Kucherov fit for duty until the 2019/20 season ended, gaining them another $10MM in CAP space for the playoffs and cheating the rest of the league. How difficult is it to place someone on LTIR? A physical injury seems relatively easy, providing the NHL believes the team's doctors , but what do they need for a mental health injury? The way i understand cap is you can only use ltir when you've used up your cap... Given the current environment I think a mental health claim would be harder to deny imo... Every time I think I got LTIR rules mastered, it feels like they get applied completely at cross odds to what I thought I always thought that LTiR could only be applied to the replacement player. For instance, Carey Price’s 10.5 M cap can only be applied to a goalie. Sean Monahan is not replacing Carey Price. Now the Habs could pull some sementics exercises and claim Allen is replacing him, not Montembeault (to get more relief in theory). But it sure feels as if Montreal used Prices cap relief for non goalie purposes this year. We are over 10 million above the cap, and Drouin hasn’t been on LTiR for very long. Another thing is our real cap space must be used up first. So if we are at 78.5 million cap , and we lose a 5 million dollar player to LTIR, and we replace him with a 6 million dollar player we are only 2 million above the cap (we had 4 million available) Conversely if we replaced him with a 3 million dollar player, there is no cap relief. We had the available space for the replacement player. |
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