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Post by PTH on Jun 12, 2023 10:20:27 GMT -5
I'm thinking the relatively hard-line take by the league on Mailloux might be PR-related, given the hockey Canada scandal... they need to have a hard-line precedent for when that investigation gets all wrapped up.
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Post by PTH on Jun 12, 2023 11:00:40 GMT -5
... Not only did they already lose Formenton (he is evidently the central person of interst in the investigation), ... I read the opposite hypothesis: that Formenton is the one player actively cooperating, and the old-school hockey world has circled the wagons, so he got exiled. |
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Post by jkr on Jun 12, 2023 11:44:28 GMT -5
The Mailloux situation - regardless of how good a prospect he is - is just another mess left behind by Bergevin.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jun 12, 2023 14:00:04 GMT -5
The Mailloux situation - regardless of how good a prospect he is - is just another mess left behind by Bergevin. I agree it is a berg mess but if the team fights for this guy, we could way farther ahead. |
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Post by jkr on Jun 12, 2023 14:17:34 GMT -5
Oh I agree.
My point , which I didnt make clearly, was that it's just one more thing along with the bad contracts that demonstrated his lack of foresight.
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Post by seventeen on Jun 12, 2023 14:57:32 GMT -5
Mr Reactive? The guy who didn't give size any thought until Lars Eller got laid out? The only time he was proactive was when he could see his time was coming to an end and decided to saddle whoever came after him with problem contracts galore. If you were to grade GM's for character like one does for draftees, he'd score a 1 out of 10. What a douchebag. Oops, am I allowed to use that word?
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Post by IamCanadiens on Jun 12, 2023 16:50:56 GMT -5
Oh I agree. My point , which I didnt make clearly, was that it's just one more thing along with the bad contracts that demonstrated his lack of foresight. Or did he have enough foresight to know that he could make the mess because he wouldn't have to clean it up? |
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Post by PTH on Jun 12, 2023 16:56:12 GMT -5
Oh I agree. My point , which I didnt make clearly, was that it's just one more thing along with the bad contracts that demonstrated his lack of foresight. Or did he have enough foresight to know that he could make the mess because he wouldn't have to clean it up? I suspect he thought he was keeping a winning team together (bad contracts), and I think he figured that Mailloux was by far the best prospect on the board, he was going to go for the win and pick him and deal with the fallout later. To a certain extent, picking Mailloux is equivalent to picking Michkov now - going for the available player with the highest upside, but with off-ice issues... No one wants those issues, but no one wants to miss out on high-end talent, either. |
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Post by seventeen on Jun 13, 2023 0:24:22 GMT -5
Or did he have enough foresight to know that he could make the mess because he wouldn't have to clean it up? I suspect he thought he was keeping a winning team together (bad contracts), and I think he figured that Mailloux was by far the best prospect on the board, he was going to go for the win and pick him and deal with the fallout later. To a certain extent, picking Mailloux is equivalent to picking Michkov now - going for the available player with the highest upside, but with off-ice issues... No one wants those issues, but no one wants to miss out on high-end talent, either. There are similarities. With Michkov, it's uncertainty over whether he'll come over. With Mailloux, the team is dealing with something similar in that there's uncertainty as to how society will view him, but the talent matter is completely different. Even if Mailloux turns out, he's a 2nd pair dman. If Michkov turns out, he's a 100+ point forward. |
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jun 14, 2023 15:24:02 GMT -5
Or did he have enough foresight to know that he could make the mess because he wouldn't have to clean it up? I suspect he thought he was keeping a winning team together (bad contracts), and I think he figured that Mailloux was by far the best prospect on the board, he was going to go for the win and pick him and deal with the fallout later. To a certain extent, picking Mailloux is equivalent to picking Michkov now - going for the available player with the highest upside, but with off-ice issues... No one wants those issues, but no one wants to miss out on high-end talent, either. Picking MaillouX was the least bad thing he did to the team. Best player available by a long shot. We are living in a woke world where a man can use a womans restroom and expose himself in front of young girls. That used to be a terrible perverse crime. Now it's a crime to embarrass a man in a dress. What Mailloux did was a foolish prank by an underage kid far from home. Hitting a player in the face with a stick is a 5 minute major, 10 minute misconduct and maybe 3 games. Get real Buttman. |
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Post by drkcloud on Jun 14, 2023 19:57:32 GMT -5
I know nothing about Reinbacher but this is an interesting opinion... McCagg obviously doesn't believe Smith or Carlsson are franchise players
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Post by Willie Dog on Jun 14, 2023 21:00:11 GMT -5
I know nothing about Reinbacher but this is an interesting opinion... McCagg obviously doesn't believe Smith or Carlsson are franchise players I guess McCagg and I agree on one thing... that Mailloux will be a top RD for the Habs... |
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Post by Willie Dog on Jun 15, 2023 16:29:39 GMT -5
Hearing lots about Hughes trying to move up... maybe he doesn't want the michov drama... some are saying he's trying to get to #4, others are saying he's going after #2
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Post by Skilly on Jun 15, 2023 17:33:21 GMT -5
I suspect he thought he was keeping a winning team together (bad contracts), and I think he figured that Mailloux was by far the best prospect on the board, he was going to go for the win and pick him and deal with the fallout later. To a certain extent, picking Mailloux is equivalent to picking Michkov now - going for the available player with the highest upside, but with off-ice issues... No one wants those issues, but no one wants to miss out on high-end talent, either. Picking MaillouX was the least bad thing he did to the team. Best player available by a long shot. We are living in a woke world where a man can use a womans restroom and expose himself in front of young girls. That used to be a terrible perverse crime. Now it's a crime to embarrass a man in a dress. What Mailloux did was a foolish prank by an underage kid far from home. Hitting a player in the face with a stick is a 5 minute major, 10 minute misconduct and maybe 3 games. Get real Buttman. You do know there are no urinals in women’s bathrooms, right? #redherring 🙄🙄 |
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Post by habsorbed on Jun 16, 2023 0:11:19 GMT -5
Hearing lots about Hughes trying to move up... maybe he doesn't want the michov drama... some are saying he's trying to get to #4, others are saying he's going after #2 It is odd. Obviously Hawks and Bedard are not in the conversation. So issue is how does HuGo know tha the player they want to trade up for is not going to be around at #5. Hard to beleive they know what the top 4 teams are going to pick. Suppose HuGo want Smith. Do they trade up to get him, even though for all they know Sharks are thinking of taking Michkov. I guess the question is what will HuGo have to add to the #5 pick to get the higher pick. But perhaps HuGo is thinking bigger, Fantilli. Would Ducks give up Fantilli and for what price? I'm thinking this is about getting Smith, given Hughes conection with the guy. Hopefully we don't have to give up not too much - throw in the #31 pick and a prospect? |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jun 16, 2023 9:18:22 GMT -5
Does HuGo not want Michkov or do they want to avoid the risk of NOT taking Michkov?
The psychology here is fascinating. Under normal circumstances, you evaluate a player based on his ceiling, your confidence level that he can reach that ceiling, and other attributes and intangibles. By all accounts, Michkov has the highest ceiling of any player other than Bedard, so it comes down to the uncertainty factor. I'm not sure scouts are second guessing his ceiling (maybe they are?) as much as they are the uncertainty around his status and development timeline.
But you still need to balance that against the alternatives. Ryan Leonard, Zach Benson, and David Reinbacher would score lower on the ceiling factor but higher on the confidence factor. Still, are we really going to regret not taking guys like Leonard and Benson, who seem fine but not all that special? Or is it possible the ceiling on those guys is undervalued?
I still think the potential impact of a guy like Michkov is too good to pass up at #5. The development stuff is overblown IMO (if he's THAT good it doesn't matter) while time/contract factor is a calculated risk worth taking if you believe he's the real thing. Plus there's value in pushing out the start date of his first NHL contract.
Without knowing anything about these players, I will be disappointed if we pass on Michkov at #5 or trade down to add more "good but not great" prospects to the mix. We have plenty of those guys. Elite talent is extremely hard to find and HuGo better know what they are doing if they pass on it. That's why moving up to draft a guy like Smith or Carlsson is partly a hedge against looking like idiots if Michkov turns into a stud and we're stuck with David Savard - I mean David Reinbacher.
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Post by jkr on Jun 16, 2023 12:38:40 GMT -5
Agreed BH. What was the point of tanking the last 2 years? So they could pass on drafting elite talent? This seems too much like something that Bergevin would do. Rationalize drafting Kotkaniemi when Tkaczuk or Quinn Hughes was still out there.
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Post by Andrew on Jun 16, 2023 12:54:14 GMT -5
Does HuGo not want Michkov or do they want to avoid the risk of NOT taking Michkov? The psychology here is fascinating. Under normal circumstances, you evaluate a player based on his ceiling, your confidence level that he can reach that ceiling, and other attributes and intangibles. By all accounts, Michkov has the highest ceiling of any player other than Bedard, so it comes down to the uncertainty factor. I'm not sure scouts are second guessing his ceiling (maybe they are?) as much as they are the uncertainty around his status and development timeline. But you still need to balance that against the alternatives. Ryan Leonard, Zach Benson, and David Reinbacher would score lower on the ceiling factor but higher on the confidence factor. Still, are we really going to regret not taking guys like Leonard and Benson, who seem fine but not all that special? Or is it possible the ceiling on those guys is undervalued? I still think the potential impact of a guy like Michkov is too good to pass up at #5. The development stuff is overblown IMO (if he's THAT good it doesn't matter) while time/contract factor is a calculated risk worth taking if you believe he's the real thing. Plus there's value in pushing out the start date of his first NHL contract. Without knowing anything about these players, I will be disappointed if we pass on Michkov at #5 or trade down to add more "good but not great" prospects to the mix. We have plenty of those guys. Elite talent is extremely hard to find and HuGo better know what they are doing if they pass on it. That's why moving up to draft a guy like Smith or Carlsson is partly a hedge against looking like idiots if Michkov turns into a stud and we're stuck with David Savard - I mean David Reinbacher. Very hard to say with Michkov. Regardless of their stance, the better job Hughes and company can do of concealing their intentions then the better positioned they are should they want to entertain a trade. On 32 thoughts podcast this morning Friedman had some interesting insights. He mentioned that Michkov has been elusive when it comes to being interviewed by teams. There are teams that want to talk to him that haven't been able to get a commitment that he'll meet with them when he's in North America for the draft. Friedman questions whether Michkov has a preference in terms of teams, and he's trying to influence which way things go. www.sportsnet.ca/podcasts/32-thoughts/barbahev/ (32 minute mark) On the topic of Leonard, Pronman was asked in a Q&A to what extent the success of Smith/Leonard/Perreault as individuals was a product of their line mates. Pronman agreed that there's some degree of risk in all three for that reason. I haven't seen any of them plan and have no strong opinion there, but it's something to consider. |
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Post by seventeen on Jun 16, 2023 13:07:04 GMT -5
I know nothing about Reinbacher but this is an interesting opinion... McCagg obviously doesn't believe Smith or Carlsson are franchise players I guess McCagg and I agree on one thing... that Mailloux will be a top RD for the Habs... Grant McCagg is not exactly the Oracle of Delphi, or even the Oracle of Moose Jaw. BTW, he doesn't project Guhle as a first pair Dman, and I certainly do. So who do you trust more?  I also disagree strongly on Carlsson. He has the makings of a Barkov or Kopitar. |
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Post by seventeen on Jun 16, 2023 13:28:15 GMT -5
Very hard to say with Michkov. Regardless of their stance, the better job Hughes and company can do of concealing their intentions then the better positioned they are should they want to entertain a trade. On 32 thoughts podcast this morning Friedman had some interesting insights. He mentioned that Michkov has been elusive when it comes to being interviewed by teams. There are teams that want to talk to him that haven't been able to get a commitment that he'll meet with them when he's in North America for the draft. Friedman questions whether Michkov has a preference in terms of teams, and he's trying to influence which way things go. www.sportsnet.ca/podcasts/32-thoughts/barbahev/ (32 minute mark) On the topic of Leonard, Pronman was asked in a Q&A to what extent the success of Smith/Leonard/Perreault as individuals was a product of their line mates. Pronman agreed that there's some degree of risk in all three for that reason. I haven't seen any of them plan and have no strong opinion there, but it's something to consider. Good assessment Andrew. Regarding Michkov, Habs have an avenue of contact, no? Some relative works for SKA St. Petersburg, who own Michkov's rights, even though he was lent to Sochi last season. If contact has been made, maybe that's the strategy...add even more risk to the Michkov equation to ensure he falls to #5. Moving up also could be a diversion. The cost, according to Basu in The Athletic, is around pick #20 plus their own #5 to move up to top 4. So what would it cost to move 31 up to 20 to afford moving to 4? It doesn't make sense, frankly, but it's another item thrown into the mix. The point about the NTDTP line is valid. The Finnish line of Laine- Aho- Puljujarvi is an excellent example. There's often one primary driver on a line, benefiting the teammates. In the Finns case it was Aho, but he was considered the least important by drafting teams. Laine had the great shot and Puljujarvi.....well... ok, moving on, which player on the US line is the key guy? Right now it's considered Smith, but there are a few scouts who like Leonard better and didn't Perreault outscore them all? We really don't know. I'm not as high on Smith as most (though he's clearly top 7 or 8) because of a comment or two I've read from scouts about his play. I get the feeling he relied on his skating, but I saw him make one play in the U-18's that was all vision, so maybe he isn't weak in that area. I didn't see enough US U-18 games to have an opinion but I'll be that one guy of those 3 will be the real deal, one guy will be ok and the third will be a disappointment. I have no idea which will be which or as Donald Trump Jr. would say "witch will be witch". |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jun 16, 2023 13:31:25 GMT -5
Very hard to say with Michkov. Regardless of their stance, the better job Hughes and company can do of concealing their intentions then the better positioned they are should they want to entertain a trade. For sure. All the chatter seems to suggest that the Habs are moving off Michkov, but that's based on trying to read between the lines of comments made by HuGo. Better to keep people guessing. My fear is they have an "approach" to evaluating prospects, which I support. It's important to have a consistent framework that factors in all of the tangible and intangible factors, but you don't want to be a slave to it either. At the end of the day it's all about assumptions of future performance that are highly variable. The other point I'll make is Habs fans have a longtime respect and admiration for Russian players going all the way back to 1972 and famous 1975 New Years Eve game against the Red Army. That whole generation (Tretiak, Kharlamov, Krutov, etc.) got way more respect in Montreal than in the US cities. Even Alex Kovalev was a huge fan favorite. Other than a local francophone, I think a flashy, exciting Russian would be a perfect fit in Montreal. The fans are starved for a player who can get them out of their seats. |
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Post by jkr on Jun 16, 2023 14:37:04 GMT -5
Some comments I have read see this position Michkov as a red flag. I dont see it it as much different than stanves taken by players like Lemieux or Lindros or even Elway if you want to look at another sport.
It seems to boil down to the fact that we may not be comfortable with players exercising their power. I don't have much of a problem with it. At this point, I'm just tired of waiting.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jun 16, 2023 14:43:07 GMT -5
It seems to boil down to the fact that we may not be comfortable with players exercising their power. Well we know prior management had a serious problem with some players (cough-PK-cough) establishing their own brand separate from the team. All you need to do is follow the NBA to see what the era of "player empowerment" looks like. I'm not anti-management or pro player, but the NHL along with MLB are probably the most "old school" in terms of embracing this stuff. If Michkov is trying to send a signal to teams that would draft him that he's not so hot on playing there, then I don't have a problem with that. The fact that he's under contract with the KHL means he will have some leverage when the time comes to sign a pro deal. |
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Post by seventeen on Jun 16, 2023 15:19:16 GMT -5
Michkov might also prefer to go to Washington, give that Ovechkin is there, but will Ovie be there in 2026? With the politics in Russia and the necessary bootlicking that goes along with that you never know and maybe HuGo have read the tea leaves correctly and plan to avoid it. Can't blame them, but I sure would like to lay my hands on a talent like Michkov.
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Post by folatre on Jun 16, 2023 16:13:37 GMT -5
When the quality of life in a country goes to shet, even rich people generally sour on life there. Russia is facing an astonishing demographic decline; entrepreneurs already packed their bags; and living standards are set to plummet as social spending falls off a cliff. And the billionaires, among those who own KHL teams, are apparently facing a new Putin 'patriotism tax' that may dampen their mood for subsidizing ice hockey.
My hunch is Michkov, like any normal person, will be happy to come to North America regardless of which club holds his rights. ELCs are the same everywhere and the sooner he gets the clock ticking on his ELC, the sooner he can start cashing the big $10 million USD check each July 1.
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Post by Skilly on Jun 16, 2023 19:03:20 GMT -5
Does HuGo not want Michkov or do they want to avoid the risk of NOT taking Michkov? The psychology here is fascinating. Under normal circumstances, you evaluate a player based on his ceiling, your confidence level that he can reach that ceiling, and other attributes and intangibles. By all accounts, Michkov has the highest ceiling of any player other than Bedard, so it comes down to the uncertainty factor. I'm not sure scouts are second guessing his ceiling (maybe they are?) as much as they are the uncertainty around his status and development timeline. But you still need to balance that against the alternatives. Ryan Leonard, Zach Benson, and David Reinbacher would score lower on the ceiling factor but higher on the confidence factor. Still, are we really going to regret not taking guys like Leonard and Benson, who seem fine but not all that special? Or is it possible the ceiling on those guys is undervalued? I still think the potential impact of a guy like Michkov is too good to pass up at #5. The development stuff is overblown IMO (if he's THAT good it doesn't matter) while time/contract factor is a calculated risk worth taking if you believe he's the real thing. Plus there's value in pushing out the start date of his first NHL contract. Without knowing anything about these players, I will be disappointed if we pass on Michkov at #5 or trade down to add more "good but not great" prospects to the mix. We have plenty of those guys. Elite talent is extremely hard to find and HuGo better know what they are doing if they pass on it. That's why moving up to draft a guy like Smith or Carlsson is partly a hedge against looking like idiots if Michkov turns into a stud and we're stuck with David Savard - I mean David Reinbacher. Very hard to say with Michkov. Regardless of their stance, the better job Hughes and company can do of concealing their intentions then the better positioned they are should they want to entertain a trade. On 32 thoughts podcast this morning Friedman had some interesting insights. He mentioned that Michkov has been elusive when it comes to being interviewed by teams. There are teams that want to talk to him that haven't been able to get a commitment that he'll meet with them when he's in North America for the draft. Friedman questions whether Michkov has a preference in terms of teams, and he's trying to influence which way things go. www.sportsnet.ca/podcasts/32-thoughts/barbahev/ (32 minute mark) On the topic of Leonard, Pronman was asked in a Q&A to what extent the success of Smith/Leonard/Perreault as individuals was a product of their line mates. Pronman agreed that there's some degree of risk in all three for that reason. I haven't seen any of them plan and have no strong opinion there, but it's something to consider. In addition to what Friedman said, I’ve also read on Twitter that some teams sent staff to Russia to talk to Michkov. And he has not only been eluding them, but when people do manage to track him down , he hasn’t spoken to them for longer than 5 minutes Maybe Komrad Putin has spoken in his ear |
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jun 17, 2023 0:10:24 GMT -5
Very hard to say with Michkov. Regardless of their stance, the better job Hughes and company can do of concealing their intentions then the better positioned they are should they want to entertain a trade. On 32 thoughts podcast this morning Friedman had some interesting insights. He mentioned that Michkov has been elusive when it comes to being interviewed by teams. There are teams that want to talk to him that haven't been able to get a commitment that he'll meet with them when he's in North America for the draft. Friedman questions whether Michkov has a preference in terms of teams, and he's trying to influence which way things go. www.sportsnet.ca/podcasts/32-thoughts/barbahev/ (32 minute mark) On the topic of Leonard, Pronman was asked in a Q&A to what extent the success of Smith/Leonard/Perreault as individuals was a product of their line mates. Pronman agreed that there's some degree of risk in all three for that reason. I haven't seen any of them plan and have no strong opinion there, but it's something to consider. In addition to what Friedman said, I’ve also read on Twitter that some teams sent staff to Russia to talk to Michkov. And he has not only been eluding them, but when people do manage to track him down , he hasn’t spoken to them for longer than 5 minutes Maybe Komrad Putin has spoken in his ear I am hopeful that this talk about moving up is a Red herring to make teams think we don’t want to be stuck at 5 with Michkov. If teams think we don’t want him they may pass on him too. I don’t believe a thing Hugo says, I just believe what he does. It will be a very long time before we get a chance to draft a superstar like Michkov ever again. After Bedard we can get a very good NHL’er or take a chance on greatness. Drouin, Leblanc, Tinordi; nothing is guaranteed. |
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Post by Skilly on Jun 17, 2023 8:49:14 GMT -5
Michkov might also prefer to go to Washington, give that Ovechkin is there, but will Ovie be there in 2026? With the politics in Russia and the necessary bootlicking that goes along with that you never know and maybe HuGo have read the tea leaves correctly and plan to avoid it. Can't blame them, but I sure would like to lay my hands on a talent like Michkov. Then you select him, and trade his rights to Washington for their next three first rounders (unprotected of course) ... |
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Post by habsorbed on Jun 17, 2023 12:05:07 GMT -5
It's hard to know what to make of Michkov's shanningans with interviews etc. But one thing is sure, the kid ain't maing these decisions. It's his 'handlers', whoever they are. Obviously it's not his dad, so no Carl Lindros in the background. Perhaps it's the folks he has looking after him in the KHL who certainly don't want him going anywhere for their own selfish reasons. Or perhaps it's that villain from a Bond movie who runs the Wagner group  In any event, hopefully HuGo have a good sense of the kid and the real situation from earlier dealings behind enemy lines. If he's not all that interested in the NHL would he even come over for the draft which i'm reading he will attend? And if he does attend, perhaps Hugo should tell Michkov the story of the Stastny brothers who lived happily ever after, and give the kid a train ticket from Nashville to Mtl. And if the kid has certain teams he is prepared to play for then he should tell the other teams who are showing interest. Would be better for everyone. Of course Mailloux did that and look where it got him. I wonder if Maillloux would be going through all the red tape Bettman is currently putting him through if MB had let well enough alone and let the kid skip the draft that year. |
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Post by Cranky on Jun 17, 2023 14:06:45 GMT -5
Michkov has enough red flags on him to warrant a lot of suspicion on his intent. Then there is Putler the Genius.
IF we select him and he is a no show, it will be a huge blow to this season, which already has been a disaster.
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In any event, hopefully HuGo have a good sense of the kid and the real situation from earlier dealings behind enemy lines. 