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Post by seventeen on Aug 21, 2023 17:33:23 GMT -5
The prevailing thinking is that the 86 team was all about Patrick Roy and that in some respects, we stole a Cup because of luck with opponents. Calgary knocked off an elite Edmonton team. Philly, a pretty good team with 110 points got knocked out in the first round. Another strong team, Washington, got bumped in Round 3, so the Habs ended up playing a lot of teams who finished with the same approximate points as they did, 87. Montreal had a better goal differential (+50) than every other team except the Oilers and Flyers, though, so their points total was deceiving.
They also had players miss a fair number of games. A core of Naslund, Smith, Robinson, Gainey and Carbonneau were healthy all year long, but others missed a lot of games.
Ryan Walter - 11
Mike McPhee - 10
Mario Tremblay - 24
Stephane Richer - 15
Chris Chelios - 39
Brian Skrudlund - 15
Mike Lalor -18
Craig Ludwig - 11
Rick Green - 34
In addition, Claude Lemieux, a rookie, played only 10 regular season games before destroying everyone in the playoffs. The toll on the defense was especially hard. Chelios and Green missed almost half the season each. A defense of Robinson, Chelios, Green, Lalor and Ludwig was a very strong group. Mobile (relatively for the era and Larry and Chris were mobile in any era), strong, tough. They had it all. Strength up the centre with Smith, Walter, Carbonneau and Skrudlund. Nilan and Tremblay were as tough as they come and no one messed with Larry. And, finally, the backstopper, one of the top 3 goalies of all time if not the best.
It was a very underrated team and if they hadn't had so many injuries, especially Chelios, they would have finished with 100+ points easily. I'm never going to agree with them being an undeserving Cup team.
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Post by Willie Dog on Aug 22, 2023 8:46:13 GMT -5
Can't argue with anything you posted 17... the deniers are just haters
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Post by folatre on Aug 22, 2023 19:41:33 GMT -5
Nice post, seventeen. It is a well-researched trip down memory road. I am in my late-40s so the mid-1980s were the beginning of my active Habs fandom.
I agree with the premise that the 85-86 edition of the Canadien has been underrated. I think this ‘underdog’ or ‘middle of the pack team’ winning it all narrative is mostly driven by the fact that the playoff heroes (Roy, Lemieux) were rookies. And it was also driven by the Cup being sandwiched in the middle of the Oilers winning four in five years, so Canada’s collective memory is that without Edmonton getting upset, Montreal could not have won.
But I believe you are right, that upon a deeper dive, smart hockey people see that Serge Savard had assembled a formidable team. Going into the season, none of us knew who Patty Roy was, but the kid was solid all season and then went beast mode in the playoffs. The defense was really stout and good, plenty of skill, plenty of snarl, nice mixture of vets and youth. At face value, the centres did not seem like an obvious strength, but Bobby Smith in his prime years was a 1C; Ryan Walter was solid; Carbonneau was emerging as an outstanding NHLer; and Skrudland played great when it counted most. On the wings, Gainey was still a great player and Nasland was at the top his game, and once everyone got placed in the right seat, the other guys were a handful to deal with too – big, mobile, direct North-South hockey, skilled, nasty.
It is hard to remember exactly where I thought the Habs were on the trajectory of becoming legit contenders going into that magical season because I was like 10 years old, I could not watch all the games on the tele, and the internet did not exist. But in retrospect, I think this season was slightly ahead of schedule breakthrough that Savard was building with his stellar drafting and development.
Man, I loved those Habs teams from the late 80s. I know a lot of fans of other teams thought the Habs should feel grateful for winning in '86, but considering how outstanding the teams from the following three or four seasons were, I feel like Montreal could have won another one in the 80s. I guess credit to Boston and Philly because they iced some very good teams too during that time frame.
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Post by Cranky on Aug 23, 2023 4:59:07 GMT -5
Man, I loved those Habs teams from the late 80s. I know a lot of fans of other teams thought the Habs should feel grateful for winning in '86, but considering how outstanding the teams from the following three or four seasons were, I feel like Montreal could have won another one in the 80s. I guess credit to Boston and Philly because they iced some very good teams too during that time frame. If you loved the 80's team, you would of died and gone to heaven with the 70s teams. I'm a generation older then you and now barely remember to the mid 60's. Beliveau, H Richard, Worsley, Plante are still the earliest memories...for now. I'm sure if I had a photographic memory I would of seen M Richard and a lot of the greats players on the '58 Admiral b/w but I simply don't remember them. I do have a flash of a memory sitting on my fathers shoulder in a cup parade when I was 6. Having lived through that, you have to excuse my hard line and impatience with the clusterpuck of the last 30 years. |
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Post by Willie Dog on Aug 23, 2023 8:04:45 GMT -5
Man, I loved those Habs teams from the late 80s. I know a lot of fans of other teams thought the Habs should feel grateful for winning in '86, but considering how outstanding the teams from the following three or four seasons were, I feel like Montreal could have won another one in the 80s. I guess credit to Boston and Philly because they iced some very good teams too during that time frame. If you loved the 80's team, you would of died and gone to heaven with the 70s teams. I'm a generation older then you and now barely remember to the mid 60's. Beliveau, H Richard, Worsley, Plante are still the earliest memories...for now. I'm sure if I had a photographic memory I would of seen M Richard and a lot of the greats players on the '58 Admiral b/w but I simply don't remember them. I do have a flash of a memory sitting on my fathers shoulder in a cup parade when I was 6. Having lived through that, you have to excuse my hard line and impatience with the clusterpuck of the last 30 years. I was born in the early 60s, so the 70s habs spoiled me rotten... I have never been to a cup parade in Montreal but I want to be at one before I kick the bucket, so I am hopefully HuGo are able to build a team that can get me one. When we win a cup, there needs to be a HabsRUs summit in Montréal with t-shirts, posters, signs and scotch... |
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Post by Cranky on Aug 23, 2023 14:51:59 GMT -5
If you loved the 80's team, you would of died and gone to heaven with the 70s teams. I'm a generation older then you and now barely remember to the mid 60's. Beliveau, H Richard, Worsley, Plante are still the earliest memories...for now. I'm sure if I had a photographic memory I would of seen M Richard and a lot of the greats players on the '58 Admiral b/w but I simply don't remember them. I do have a flash of a memory sitting on my fathers shoulder in a cup parade when I was 6. Having lived through that, you have to excuse my hard line and impatience with the clusterpuck of the last 30 years. I was born in the early 60s, so the 70s habs spoiled me rotten... I have never been to a cup parade in Montreal but I want to be at one before I kick the bucket, so I am hopefully HuGo are able to build a team that can get me one. When we win a cup, there needs to be a HabsRUs summit in Montréal with t-shirts, posters, signs and scotch... My REAL fear is that we don't win it in the next 20-25 years and I'm in my 90's. How am I suppose to ride my bike all the way to Montreal? (Talking about biking...I use to put in 100km rides, now I'm struggling on 20kms. So i'm buying an electric bike. If you can't win them, CHEAT!  ) |
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Post by Willie Dog on Aug 23, 2023 15:01:58 GMT -5
I was born in the early 60s, so the 70s habs spoiled me rotten... I have never been to a cup parade in Montreal but I want to be at one before I kick the bucket, so I am hopefully HuGo are able to build a team that can get me one. When we win a cup, there needs to be a HabsRUs summit in Montréal with t-shirts, posters, signs and scotch... My REAL fear is that we don't win it in the next 20-25 years and I'm in my 90's. How am I suppose to ride my bike all the way to Montreal? (Talking about biking...I use to put in 100km rides, now I'm struggling on 20kms. So i'm buying an electric bike. If you can't win them, CHEAT! ) I know guys in their 40s who have those |
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Post by Cranky on Aug 23, 2023 15:23:08 GMT -5
My REAL fear is that we don't win it in the next 20-25 years and I'm in my 90's. How am I suppose to ride my bike all the way to Montreal? (Talking about biking...I use to put in 100km rides, now I'm struggling on 20kms. So i'm buying an electric bike. If you can't win them, CHEAT! ) I know guys in their 40s who have those My last 100k was in my 50's so I'm falling apart, but very slowly...  |
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Post by seventeen on Aug 25, 2023 12:27:24 GMT -5
I know guys in their 40s who have those My last 100k was in my 50's so I'm falling apart, but very slowly... Kilometres or dividend income? |
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Post by Cranky on Aug 25, 2023 15:49:38 GMT -5
My last 100k was in my 50's so I'm falling apart, but very slowly... Kilometres or dividend income? When you talk to a bike addict, you don't refer to is as 100km, simply called 100k. |
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Post by seventeen on Aug 25, 2023 18:18:25 GMT -5
Kilometres or dividend income? When you talk to a bike addict, you don't refer to is as 100km, simply called 100k. I was being cheeky.  I'd have trouble doing 100k in a day, even on flat land and at a much younger age. My barely cardio workout on my bike is 5k, but with 6 hills of varying difficulty. Up and down my long street twice. It doesn't take long, burns off a few calories and makes me feel less guilty when I sit down with my bourbon. |
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Post by Cranky on Aug 26, 2023 3:23:03 GMT -5
When you talk to a bike addict, you don't refer to is as 100km, simply called 100k. I was being cheeky. I'd have trouble doing 100k in a day, even on flat land and at a much younger age. My barely cardio workout on my bike is 5k, but with 6 hills of varying difficulty. Up and down my long street twice. It doesn't take long, burns off a few calories and makes me feel less guilty when I sit down with my bourbon. Up to my 30s I could put in a sub 4 hour runs in a peleton on my race bike. Then the business came in with 24/7/365 shifts and that end it for two decades. By late 50s I was out of shape but could squeeze 100k...without an ambulance. Now i could probably still do it given enough time but I won't try. I don't want to find out what I can break given how out of shape I am. In comes the ebike for 50k runs. I can pedal, or add a bit of assist or if I get tired or I can make it back with pure power. For my wife, thats a huge benefit. She had a problem keeping up with me but now, she has all kinds of options. That makes our favorite Niagara on the Lake to the Falls 54k run very doable. Probably into our late 70s. On pure power into our 80s. Ebikes will give us back what age wants to steal. |
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Post by Willie Dog on Aug 26, 2023 9:40:31 GMT -5
I was being cheeky. I'd have trouble doing 100k in a day, even on flat land and at a much younger age. My barely cardio workout on my bike is 5k, but with 6 hills of varying difficulty. Up and down my long street twice. It doesn't take long, burns off a few calories and makes me feel less guilty when I sit down with my bourbon. Up to my 30s I could put in a sub 4 hour runs in a peleton on my race bike. Then the business came in with 24/7/365 shifts and that end it for two decades. By late 50s I was out of shape but could squeeze 100k...without an ambulance. Now i could probably still do it given enough time but I won't try. I don't want to find out what I can break given how out of shape I am. In comes the ebike for 50k runs. I can pedal, or add a bit of assist or if I get tired or I can make it back with pure power. For my wife, thats a huge benefit. She had a problem keeping up with me but now, she has all kinds of options. That makes our favorite Niagara on the Lake to the Falls 54k run very doable. Probably into our late 70s. On pure power into our 80s. Ebikes will give us back what age wants to steal. That sounds like a nice getaway... rent an ebike and go from the lake to the falls |
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Post by Cranky on Aug 26, 2023 13:06:25 GMT -5
That sounds like a nice getaway... rent an ebike and go from the lake to the falls It's a GREAT run. Very scenic and you can find benches all along the trail. Then of course you land up on the falls. You also don't have to do the full run. There are maybe 5 spots along the trail where you can park-and-picnic to make the run shorter. You may not need an ebike to make a 6-10k run each way. Full run is about an hour and a bit each way. The ebikes I'm looking at can half that but way too fast (45kmh) on a trail where people are walking, but you can lower the output or use adult common sense. We bring water and a snack, then when we make it back, picnic time. I bought a minivan in 2005 just to be able to make these runs. Still have it. Still love doing it. ---- Hmm...maybe I'll make a video of the trail and review the bikes st the same time. They are about $2,000 each. You can start with $1k bikes which are 95% of what the $2k bikes are. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 26, 2023 15:50:30 GMT -5
One player I thought was underrated during that playoff run was, Gaston Gingras ... he had one of the most reckless shots in the game, and good luck to you if you got in the way of it ... he scored the opening goal in Game 5 of the SCF against Calgary ... what I remember the most, though, from the '86 Cup winner, was the team starting the year with 8 rookies on their roster ... interesting to read on there, that only Larry Robinson, 34, Bob Gainey, 32, and Doug Soetaert, 30, were the only 30-year-olds on the roster ... saw Brian Skrudland's OT winner in Game 2, from the barracks at CFB Summerside ... good times ... Cheers. |
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Post by seventeen on Aug 27, 2023 13:35:37 GMT -5
One player I thought was underrated during that playoff run was, Gaston Gingras ... he had one of the most reckless shots in the game, and good luck to you if you got in the way of it ... he scored the opening goal in Game 5 of the SCF against Calgary ... what I remember the most, though, from the '86 Cup winner, was the team starting the year with 8 rookies on their roster ... interesting to read on there, that only Larry Robinson, 34, Bob Gainey, 32, and Doug Soetaert, 30, were the only 30-year-olds on the roster ... saw Brian Skrudland's OT winner in Game 2, from the barracks at CFB Summerside ... good times ... Cheers. That was a team that was really easy to love. Tons of youth and a few great veterans. |
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Post by CentreHice on Aug 27, 2023 18:50:55 GMT -5
One of many great highlights of those playoffs. Prince of Wales Finals (Semi-Finals) vs. the Rangers at MSG. Habs, up 2-0 in the series, win 4-3 on rookie Lemieux's 2nd OT goal of the playoffs--the first one knocking out Hartford in the previous series. Many Habs' fans regard that game as Roy's official "arrival". He was spectacular. Found a New York Times article from May 6, 1986--written by Craig Wolff. Interesting to read a report from the Rangers' perspective--being down 3-0 in the semis. Blaming the loss mostly on linesman Ray Scapinello who for some reason was in the middle of the ice on that play and not along the boards. James Patrick ran into him, which allowed Lemieux a clear path down the middle. I see their point--except that Patrick had already turned and was skating forward when he ran into Scampy. ============================================================================ Willie Huber wound up for a shot. The puck skipped over his stick. James Patrick, skating backward, fell over, of all people, one of the officials.
Bizarre happenings conspired at the worst possible moment against the Rangers last night - in overtime - and sent them to one of their harshest losses in recent years.
For just after Huber missed, the Montreal Canadiens' Mike McPhee picked up the puck along the left side. And just as Patrick fell, the Canadiens' Claude Lemieux flew down the middle. McPhee passed to Lemiuex, and Lemieux scored at 9 minutes 41 seconds of the extra session to give the Canadiens a 4-3 victory over the Rangers last night at Madison Square Garden.
Thus the Rangers' Stanley Cup dream was dealt its most severe blow. They now trail the Canadiens, three games to none, in the four-of-seven semifinal round.
A night that began with the usual Garden mania from a crowd of 17,374, and which stayed that way almost unabetted, ended suddenly with Lemieux's shot that went over the left shoulder of the goaltender John Vanbiesbrouck.
The goal ended an overtime period that the Rangers had dominated. And really, it ended an entire game that saw the Rangers more intense than they had been at any point in this series.
''We cannot play any better than we played tonight,'' said Don Maloney.
And from the Canadiens' Larry Robinson: ''This is the Ranger team we were expecting to face all along.''
But it was a game the Rangers were never able to control. Three times they led by a goal. Three times they lost the lead.
In the end, the night produced these heroes - Bobby Smith, who tied the game at 3-3 with just 2 minutes 4 seconds remaining in the third period, and the Montreal goalie Patrick Roy, who made 44 saves on 47 shots, including 13 from the Rangers in overtime. Montreal had just three shots in the overtime, and just four in the third period.
And, of course, it made a hero out of Lemieux, the 20-year-old rookie, who just last week, pushed the Canadiens past Hartford with an overtime goal in the seventh game of that series.
The loss left the Rangers distraught. The defenseman Huber stood at his locker later replaying the final sequence.
''I was at the right point,'' he said. ''The puck was coming to me nicely. But we have the bad ice here. It jumped over my stick. McPhee got it. I tried to hook him. But he got by. Then I see from the corner of my eye James go down.
''Why was he there? Why was the linesman not along the boards? I don't know.''
Huddled in his locker stall, Vanbiesbrouck said, ''The goal was a nightmare.''
Ranger Coach Ted Sator, at the postgame news conference, said: ''I'm almost to the point where I'd like to say I have no comment, but that wouldn't be professional. I would like to get beat by a goal that is earned.''
Then Sator went to his office. Assistant Coach Jack Birch, holding a remote control switch, played and replayed the last moments on a television set. The footage showed Huber fanning, then falling, then trying to bring McPhee down At the top of the screen, it showed Patrick falling over Linesman Ray Scapinello. The pair hooked up just before the red line and a blue face-off circle, which meant that the collision occurred 18 feet away from the boards, along which a linesman is usually situated.
Scapinello and Referee Denis Morel declined to comment on the play. League rules do not stipulate any sort of provisions for a collision involving an official, which is one of the reasons Sator said he would send the tape to the league office in hope for a rules change. Clearly it was not the only reason.
''We'll send it to them and say, 'Thank you very much,' '' said Sator.
He was asked why he would bother, and he replied: ''Why bother? We should let this go? Why bother? I think the Stanley Cup is a pretty good reason.''
Bob Brooke's goal with 7 minutes 6 seconds remaining in the third period had given the Rangers a 3-2 lead. It seemed that this would be the finishing touch of an evening that began with Kelly Miller's goal at 3:15 of the first period. But Stephane Richer scored when his wraparound shot deflectd off Vanbiesbrouck's left skate and in at the 6-minute mark for a 1-1 tie. The back-and-forth pattern kept up. Mike Ridley scored with 5:03 left in the second. Mats Naslund scored at 5:06 of the third creating a 2-2 tie.
The Rangers could never break out because Roy kept coming up with one brilliant save after another as the crowd taunted him with chants of ''Roo-wah, Roo-wah.'' In overtime, he stopped Tomas Sandstrom twice and also Bob Brooke, among several outstanding saves.
That set up the last moment's pearl, which the Rangers will remember frightfully. ----Only two teams have come back from a 3-0 deficit in playoffs: Toronto over Detroit in 1942 to win the Stanley Cup and the Islanders over the Penguins in 1975.============================================================= Bobby Smith with a quick, strong, accurate, CLUTCH backhand to tie it at 3-3 with just over 2:00 to go. |
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Post by CentreHice on Aug 27, 2023 18:57:13 GMT -5
Round 1 that season....sweeping the Bruins in 3 games.
Highlights of Game 3's 4-3 win in Boston.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Aug 28, 2023 10:38:51 GMT -5
Thanks for the memories on this 17. I forgot how many guys were injured that year, but that's pretty much the same team that became a juggernaut in 1988-89, which is still by far my favorite Habs team that didn't win the Cup. I just loved that group - Naslund, Smith, Carbo, McPhee, Skrudland, Richer, Lemieux, Chelios, Ludwig, a great balance of skill and grit, youth and veterans. Looking back the 1993 team looks more like a unicorn besides Patrick Roy. Just about all of the core from 1986-1990 was gone by then, as Savard ended up relying more on trades (Damphousse, Muller, Bellows, Savard) to build that 1993 team.
In the end those late 80s teams, even the 1988-89, 115 point squad as balanced as it was, lacked that extra gear of offensive talent. Naslund and Smith were declining by then - Mats was was the leading scorer that year with only 33 goals while Calgary had two 50-goal scorers in Mullen and Nieuwendyk along with studs like Doug Gilmour and Al MacInnis. They were just better than us. Our most talented forward in those years was Stephane Richer who scored 50 goals in 1987-88 and 51 goals in 1989-90 but only 25 goals in 1988-89. We really needed prime Stephane Richer in the 89 run.
Also worth noting that Richer is still the last Hab to score 50 goals.... that's 33 years ago. Good golly. People kind of forget him because he was a bit of a head case and inconsistent, but on his game, Stephane was an elite level right winger. Fantastic wheels, a hard accurate shot (so good he played point on the PP), great hands and control in tight quarters, and really strong. He's listed as 6'0, 190 lbs on hockeydb but he played much bigger than that to my memory.
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