The clock is ticking on MSL

[Cranky]

Here is something I dug up....Games, GF, GA

Vigneault......2000-01---82, 206, 232
MThead.........2001-02---82, 207, 209
MThead/Julien..2002-03---82, 206, 234
Julien.........2003-04---82, 208, 192
Julien.........2004-05---Mercy Killing
Julien/Gainey..2005-06---81, 243, 247
Carbo..........2006-07---82, 245, 256
Carbo..........2007-08---82, 262, 222
Carbo/Gainey...2008-09---82, 243, 247
Martin.........2009-10---82, 210, 214
Martin.........2010-11---82, 216, 209
Martin/Cunney..2011-12---82, 212, 226
MThead.........2012-13---48, 140, 126
MThead.........2013-14---82, 215, 204
MThead.........2014-15---82, 221, 189
MThead.........2015-16---82, 221, 256
MThead/Julien..2016-17---82, 226, 200
Julien.........2017-18---82, 209, 264
Julien.........2018-19---82, 249, 236
Julien.........2019-20---71, 212, 221
Julien/Decharm.2020-21---56, 159, 168
Desh/MSL.......2021-22---82, 221, 319
MSL............2022-23---82, 232, 307
MSL............2023-25---23, 64, 82
Projected......2023-24---82, 228, 292

I went all the way back to pre Price and what we see is something we haven't seen before...a coach who doesn't coach. Not even MThead with his off-the-glass defense is as bad as MSL. And please don't tell me we had a better defense when Patrick Traverse was a "defenseman" (Yes. I'm looking at you BC, ) and Jeff Hackett was in nets.

Anyone wants to argue that it's not MSL fault?

Anyone wants to argue that you are seeing an improvement on year 3?

Anyone wants to argue that defensive system is not important?

As far as I am concern, the clock is ticking. LOUDLY. Either MSL realizes that his job is not cheerleading OR he gets help and puts in defensive system OR he's on his way out. After all, HE is responsible for the results.

Thoughts?

Tears?

[Willie Dog]

I'm not an MSL defender and I blame him for not hiring assistant coaches who can provide what he can't... but between 2011 and 2019, those coaches had Carey Price at his best... Take away Carey and what would the goals against be in those years?

[Cranky]

Dec 2, 2023 18:37:27 GMT -5 Willie Dog said:

I'm not an MSL defender and I blame him for not hiring assistant coaches who can provide what he can't... but between 2011 and 2019, those coaches had Carey Price at his best... Take away Carey and what would the goals against be in those years?

Not as bad as what we are seeing now.

Price wasn't an island. MThead had everyone falling back and relieving the pressure. The off-the-glass defense was that product of that. We had no one that could carry the puck out AND not great at outlet passes (our forwards were less the speedy) so the only solution is to get the puck out of the zone and try to recover it. I'm absolutely NOT saying that MThead was a good coach, far from it, but even a bad coach like him figured out how to best use his limited assets.

Remember Green? He was the meat-and-potatoes guy that implemented it back in 2001. Basically he developed a system around his own NHL limitations. I remember it well because it stuck in my craw as a lousy system that worked because we had an LOUSY team.

What my fear is that players are not put in a system that they can succeed or develop. Players like X are not elite hockey minds so they need structure to limit their choices...and mistakes. Actually, who is that elite minded on our defense? An example is an offensive player is coming down X lane, with no forward support, he has two bad options. Go after the puck carrier and pray he cuts of the passing lane OR stay in between and let the goalie become shooting gallery. Not even Price would succeed if he faced "defensive" system like that.

Cheer leading is good...for cheerleaders (and as long as it's not guys in miniskirts)...but smart coaching and winning hockey is what is important.

[Willie Dog]

Dec 2, 2023 19:01:47 GMT -5 Cranky said:

Dec 2, 2023 18:37:27 GMT -5 Willie Dog said:

I'm not an MSL defender and I blame him for not hiring assistant coaches who can provide what he can't... but between 2011 and 2019, those coaches had Carey Price at his best... Take away Carey and what would the goals against be in those years?

Not as bad as what we are seeing now.

Price wasn't an island. MThead had everyone falling back and relieving the pressure. The off-the-glass defense was that product of that. We had no one that could carry the puck out AND not great at outlet passes (our forwards were less the speedy) so the only solution is to get the puck out of the zone and try to recover it. I'm absolutely NOT saying that MThead was a good coach, far from it, but even a bad coach like him figured out how to best use his limited assets.

Remember Green? He was the meat-and-potatoes guy that implemented it back in 2001. Basically he developed a system around his own NHL limitations. I remember it well because it stuck in my craw as a lousy system that worked because we had an LOUSY team.

What my fear is that players are not put in a system that they can succeed or develop. Players like X are not elite hockey minds so they need structure to limit their choices...and mistakes. Actually, who is that elite minded on our defense? An example is an offensive player is coming down X lane, with no forward support, he has two bad options. Go after the puck carrier and pray he cuts of the passing lane OR stay in between and let the goalie become shooting gallery. Not even Price would succeed if he faced "defensive" system like that.

Cheer leading is good...for cheerleaders (and as long as it's not guys in miniskirts)...but smart coaching and winning hockey is what is important.

We agree that MSL cannot do it alone, he needs 2 tacticians one on offence and one on defence... I said it before, MSL could use a Luke Richardson...

[seventeen]

Motivation can go a long way (John Herdman with the Men’s national soccer team). But then you hit a wall where all the hustle in the world isn’t enough. Tactics, strategy and structure matter.

Having said the above, Marty may not be giving a damn about those other things until the roster is good enough and confident enough to matter. Stretching guys to improve their weaknesses may be the goal this year. HuGo snd Marty may feel another high pick is needed (true) so why sweat the ‘small’ stuff. I’d like to see some structure or strategy. Have a good PK or PP at least. I don’t think this is the plan. It’s just weak coaching.

[seventeen]

.727 save % after one period. Allen does not want to be traded. Just watch him after Montembeault is gone.

[folatre]

I agree with the premise that Habs fans should be concerned about the boys lack of discipline and structure under St. Louis. And, yes, that is on him. However, I do not yet think the clock is ticking, so to speak.

For one thing, I do not believe it is warranted to include the 2021-22 season because he had to jump behind the bench (with no training camp or prep time) on the Titanic and St. Louis only coached 37 games, having taken over a group that was 32nd in the league by a wide margin both in terms of points and goal differential.

For me next year is year three and if the Habs are still playing free and easy hockey with minimal progress, then St. Louis should be on the clock. And Hughes should know that hiring someone you are close to like a brother can be complicated because sooner or later you will have to fire him (unless of course you are Pierre Dorion who kept DJ Smith for so long that he himself managed to get fired first).

[habsorbed]

Ya, the clock is ticking, but it ain't anywhere close to midnight. I'd say it's about 3 pm, maybe 4. Marty is in a secure position until late next year and it looks like we won't be making the playoffs. In the meantime, HuGo got to get him some support for his own good. Maybe bring MThead back for the forwards and Julien for the D But seriously, i'd treat it like the NFL with offensive and defensive coordinators who really run the show during the game, with the head coach overseeing everything. A lot of teams have former head coaches as assistance these days. Heck, Jacques Martin might be great for some systems.

As far as comparing Marty to earlier coaches' stats, it's apples to oranges. All those coaches had some experienced talent and teams that had legitimate aspirations to be in playoff contention. Marty took over when we were rock bottom and starting a rebuild which we had never done before. Between the youth and the injuries, I'm not prepared to accept that Marty is a worse coach than those other ones who achieved nothing. It's faint praise I know .

[Boston_Habs]

He needs an experienced ex-head coach as an assistant. I think that’s on HuGo. Not sure why that wasn’t obvious going into this season with Alex Burrows as the primary assistant.

HuGo made an investment in Marty knowing this was going to a full rebuild. It’s still very early but I agree progress needs to be made on things like special teams, discipline, system.

Right now it’s HuGo that’s on the clock. Two high draft picks so far, lots of decent but not special prospects and they haven’t been willing to make any big moves yet. At some point we need to convert some of these prospects and young players into legit contributors.

[Cranky]

There are two reasons I'm an early riser on MSL.

1...Team wins on a solid system.

2...Players develop faster in it.

The first one is not important right now but the later is important for young defenseman. It replaces a bit of the decision making, pressure and a huge relief breaking out.

Remember when goats like Komisarek were servicable defenseman? That was on Markov and coaching of that time.

Get a new generation Rick Green for all i care, but do it instead of expecting extra hugs to win games.

[jkr]

I'm with BH on this one. Hughes and Gorton need to be held to account. Let's be honest - the two high draft picks are inspiring more angst than anything else. And the special teams have been abysmal for years. I was expecting changes to the coaching staff after last season yet they've just come back with the same inept group.

We all talk about player growth and development but what about the coaches? They need to progress too and I haven't seen much of that this season.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

This kind of reminds me of Alain Vigneault's predicament from back in the day ... his teams had back-to-back, injury-filled seasons, and, even though injuries were out of his control, Vigneault was dismissed by Rejean Houle, a move that was made more to appease the mob, than it was about his coaching abilities ... from the NY Times ...

“Sometimes, a coach gets fired and players are happy — they wanted him out, they wanted change ... not in this situation. We really felt bad for him because it’s not what he deserved.”
- Karl Dykhuis

As with Vigneault back in the day, St. Louis' team is decimated by injuries ... that said, I really believe St. Louis is trying his best with what he has just as Vigneualt did back in the day ... that said, this is where I see the team ... losing Kirby Dach had the same effect on the team the same way losing Saku Koivu or Andrei Markov had all those years ago ... those teams suffered a lot when these guys went down and, it was the same with losing Dach ... still, if Dach ever gets depressed over his injuries, he needs to only look at Koivu and Markov to see that there is light at the end of the tunnel ... both of these guys recovered from serious injuries to have successful NHL careers ... oh yeah, St. Louis; he's signed until the end of the 2024-25 season and I see him completing that contract ...

Cheers.

[seventeen]

Dec 3, 2023 15:50:23 GMT -5 Disgruntled70sHab said:

This kind of reminds me of Alain Vigneault's predicament from back in the day ... his teams had back-to-back, injury-filled seasons, and, even though injuries were out of his control, Vigneault was dismissed by Rejean Houle, a move that was made more to appease the mob, than it was about his coaching abilities ... from the NY Times ...

“Sometimes, a coach gets fired and players are happy — they wanted him out, they wanted change ... not in this situation. We really felt bad for him because it’s not what he deserved.”
- Karl Dykhuis

As with Vigneault back in the day, St. Louis' team is decimated by injuries ... that said, I really believe St. Louis is trying his best with what he has just as Vigneualt did back in the day ... that said, this is where I see the team ... losing Kirby Dach had the same effect on the team the same way losing Saku Koivu or Andrei Markov had all those years ago ... those teams suffered a lot when these guys went down and, it was the same with losing Dach ... still, if Dach ever gets depressed over his injuries, he needs to only look at Koivu and Markov to see that there is light at the end of the tunnel ... both of these guys recovered from serious injuries to have successful NHL careers ... oh yeah, St. Louis; he's signed until the end of the 2024-25 season and I see him completing that contract ...

Cheers.

He's a guy learning on the job and it shows. I don't question his hockey knowledge, his creative and critical thinking or his motivational abilities. I also don't doubt he will complete at least this first contract. His job will get easier as he accumulates more assets. If Mathieson is pooping the bed, who do you replace him with? Next year he might have the choice of Hutson or Engstrom. If Kovacevic or Barron or Savard are failing, (It's a given Lindstrom won't be there) he'll be able to look to Mailloux or Reinbacher. Right now, he's fighting fires.

Having said all that, structure is something that should go on all the time. I'm only guessing, but I don't think it's a priority with the coaching staff. It might very well be starting next year or the year after. Right now it's a mess. On Detroit's first goal, Monahan is standing 15 feet in front of Allen and there's no Red wing there. Everyone is covered except for Veleno who is wide open, of course. So....is Monahan supposed to be in front of the net in those situations or is he supposed to look for the uncovered opponent to check? It was bad luck how the puck got to Veleno (and that's a subject for an entirely new thread), but we should be minimizing dangerous opportunities. What was Monahan doing? A further example is our zone exits, or should I say our zone non exits. The Wings seemed to know exactly where the puck was going and were on our guys immediately. Good teams either have Plan B's and C's, or they execute faster and beat the forecheck that way. This could simply be lack of talent. Slaf seemed to be able to get the puck out and moving better than most, so it may just be talent. Lindstrom, Anderson, Stephens, Pearson, Kovacevic, Dvorak, Armmia. That's 7 guys (a third of the roster) who won't or shouldn't be on the team in 2 years time. Lindstrom and Armia actually had good games yesterday, but we know that's just variance.

And don't get me started on Anderson. I swear that if he touches the puck, you might as well just have handed it to the opposition, because that's where it's going. I bet his turnovers are not the worst in the league, but they should be. They probably don't count the number of times he shoots it in, goes to forecheck, but the defenseman has gotten to the puck ages before Anderson arrives and they are already transitioning the other way. If the other team owns the puck within 2-3 seconds of you touching it, over and over, there's a problem. Yet, there he goes, day in, day out, nary a consequence to his play. It is truly depressing watching him step out. It's like having a flagellation scheduled and you have to repeat it every 5 minutes. Such anticipation.

[folatre]

Yeah, Vigneault turned out to be the guy with professional competence and, as a result, had a long successful career behind the bench. Houle not so much.

The injury issue is real and it has impacted the on ice product in 2022-23 and 2023-24, but at some point next season if no real progress is being made, then it would not make sense for Gorton and Hughes to endorse a contract extension for St. Louis.

Aside from praying that the roster is not full of guys who are injury-prone moving forward, the non-negotiable for next season is to get an experienced systems guy as an Assistant in order give the kids a better chance to grow as pros.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Dec 3, 2023 17:36:22 GMT -5 seventeen said:

And don't get me started on Anderson. I swear that if he touches the puck, you might as well just have handed it to the opposition, because that's where it's going. I bet his turnovers are not the worst in the league, but they should be. They probably don't count the number of times he shoots it in, goes to forecheck, but the defenseman has gotten to the puck ages before Anderson arrives and they are already transitioning the other way. If the other team owns the puck within 2-3 seconds of you touching it, over and over, there's a problem. Yet, there he goes, day in, day out, nary a consequence to his play. It is truly depressing watching him step out. It's like having a flagellation scheduled and you have to repeat it every 5 minutes. Such anticipation.

Why Josh Anderson hasn't ridden the pine to this point is puzzling ... even a demotion to the lower lines would be warranted ... yet, I first heard this story from Stu Cowen on YouTube then, I found some of the dialog ... from Marc Dumont ...

“With the goalie situation, it seems like it has been a three-headed rotation, almost like starting pitchers in baseball,” said Cowan. “Is that going to be the plan moving forward?”

St-Louis responded by shaking his head and saying the following.

“I don’t really know. Taking it week-by-week,” he said at 14:42 of the post-game press conference ...

... It’s an understandable position.

Coaches love clarity, and for a coach like St-Louis, providing clarity for his players is very important. But he’s not the one keeping three goaltenders in the lineup, and therefore he’s at the mercy of general manager Kent Hughes, just like his goaltenders.

So, dare I ask, does Hughes also have a say in the amount of Anderson's ice-time ... 

Cheers.

[folatre]

Well, under-fire DJ Smith has a new 'special adviser,' Jacques Martin, to help sort through the multitude of problems that Ottawa's owner/GM undoubtedly see with the way the Sens play a casual brand of hockey.

It would not have been a bad thing, in my estimation, for Hughes and Gorton to have gone after Martin in order to help the Habs improve. I am sure St. Louis believes in guys like Burrows and Robidas, but it certainly seems there is a major void right now on the staff.

[Cranky]

Dec 6, 2023 18:13:18 GMT -5 folatre said:

Well, under-fire DJ Smith has a new 'special adviser,' Jacques Martin, to help sort through the multitude of problems that Ottawa's owner/GM undoubtedly see with the way the Sens play a casual brand of hockey.

It would not have been a bad thing, in my estimation, for Hughes and Gorton to have gone after Martin in order to help the Habs improve. I am sure St. Louis believes in guys like Burrows and Robidas, but it certainly seems there is a major void right now on the staff.

Did you hear that loud shingle lifting sigh? That was me.

One of the greatest problems any organization can have is to be satisfied with the status quo. I was fortunate to work for a owner who kept asking..."what have you done today to earn your salary?". He expected better every day and he would actually quiz/discuss that. Not in an offensive or nasty way, just to make sure there was always a fire lit.

If HuGo is happy with the results and doesn't see anywhere he can improve on his management team...we are ******.