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Post by Goldthorpe on Sept 2, 2004 16:01:04 GMT -5
I'm surprised to see very little about the World Cup around here. I hope all the habsrus crowd is following the tournament as closely as I am, maybe for the only reason that this may be the best hockey we see on TV before a long time.
I've been very impressed by Team Canada so far. Instead of starting it slowly like they did during the last winter olympic, they've been able this time to quickly adopt an effective system and play very well for the first two games of the tournament. Now, we're assured to play all our remaining games on home ice, and it's gonna be a huge advantage if the Toronto fans proves to be as demonstrative as the Montreal's ones.
Of all the players, I've been specially impressed by Lecavalier and St-Louis. The first because he quickly proves that Gretzky was wrong in prefering Yzerman (!!) over him when he first selected the team. The second because I really, really did not expect him to be a factor, while (IIRC) he leads right now the team in points. St-Louis is proving that his spectacular season wasn't a fluke, and that he can look really good among the bests of the world.
I sure hope than Russia proves to be a more energic opponent than Slovaquia, and that Canada can continue on its success. If we don't loose any more D, I think we're heading for the gold.
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Post by Skilly on Sept 2, 2004 16:43:44 GMT -5
To me the set up is a joke. And for that fact I am not watching it as closely as I would have thought I would.
The last World Cup had
North American Pool : Canada, Us, Slovakia, Russia
Europe Pool: Sweden, Finland, Germany, Czechia
This year its the same thing! How is that fair at all. So in 2 World Cups Russia and Slovakia (where hockey is king) have 0 home games. You say Canada has home ice advantage the rest of the way ...... when did they not have it? A game in the US is just as good to us .... think of what a game in Slovakia could have meant? The least they could do is have home and homes to make it fair, so every team play 6 games in each pool.
Then I have an issue with the seedings. The last World Cup didn't Canada and the US finish first and second? So why are they in the same pool now? So what legitimacy does this tournament have if Canada, Russia, Slovakia, and US always have to be in the same bracket? It is the World Cup and should be treated as so. Right now it is a reaonable hand drawn facsimile of the Canada Cup and is set up to give the best chance of a Canada-US final. Why? Because the NHL and the NHLPA split the profits.
And why Germany? They haven't done much on the world scene in ages. Have they ever beaten Russia? Conversely, Latvia, Belarus, Kazakstan all have thriving hockey programs and all have beaten Russia in the recent past. They should just call the tournament the Big 8 Cup (they'd even have a ready made sponsor).
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Post by franko on Sept 2, 2004 16:56:11 GMT -5
I'm surprised to see very little about the World Cup around here. No rush to watch: 1. The "pre-season" games were played in August; 2. The "season" is even more meaningless than the NHL, where at least only half of the teams make the playoffs. This is just another warm-up for the real thing, as all that they are playing for is seeding. 3. Scrubs was on last night, and I couldn't wrest the remote from my children (not that I tried all that hard, because of reasons 1 and 2). |
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Post by Strummerman on Sept 2, 2004 18:58:41 GMT -5
With Jovo out I think the main weakness for Canada is defence. Why Mccabe or Souray are not on team rather than Hannan or Bouwmeester?
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Post by Rimmer on Sept 3, 2004 2:31:44 GMT -5
And why Germany? They haven't done much on the world scene in ages. Have they ever beaten Russia? Conversely, Latvia, Belarus, Kazakstan all have thriving hockey programs and all have beaten Russia in the recent past. They should just call the tournament the Big 8 Cup (they'd even have a ready made sponsor). because Germany is still ranked the 8th best hockey team by the IIHF: www.iihf.com/news/Ranking2004.pdfR. |
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Post by Tattac on Sept 3, 2004 7:16:03 GMT -5
How is that fair at all. So in 2 World Cups Russia and Slovakia (where hockey is king) have 0 home games. Exactly! Team Russia played its only exhibition game in Europe ... in Switzerland!! No wonder not too many people here care about this World Cup. I would say that only Russian NHL fans give a damn what is going on at this tournament.  |
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Post by Rimmer on Sept 3, 2004 8:03:07 GMT -5
Exactly! Team Russia played its only exhibition game in Europe ... in Switzerland!! No wonder not too many people here care about this World Cup. I would say that only Russian NHL fans give a damn what is going on at this tournament. what an ungrateful bunch...  R. |
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Post by Skilly on Sept 6, 2004 18:03:29 GMT -5
I would agree with that assessment of why which teams are there however I offer the following: 1) The World Cup is not an IIHF event so why use IIHF rankings - but I agree if Germany is eighth they should be there. But if Slovakia, or Czech or anyone slips out of the top eight do you think they would not invite them? 2) If you answered "yes" to the above question, then explain the Olympics which is an IIHF event. In Nagano they chose the teams that qualified automatically based on the previous Olympics and World Championships. If that "system" stayed in place then Belarus should have not had to qualify for the Salt Lake games, and Russia should have had to qualify. But the IIHF changed how they chose the teams. So evenm the IIHF changes the rules to suit its needs. 3) Why is Germany still ranked eighth? I can't remember the last time they won a game internationally. Latvia, Belarus, Kazakstan all have faired better internationally the last 2-3 years than Germany. I may be way off base on this, but Germany was probably originally chosen for the "Big 8" because they had a few NHLer's (they should have persued German born Dany Heatley before he suited up with Canada - offered him the moon) but now there are other countries with just as many or more NHLer's than Germany. |
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Post by Rimmer on Sept 7, 2004 4:06:03 GMT -5
1) The World Cup is not an IIHF event so why use IIHF rankings - but I agree if Germany is eighth they should be there. But if Slovakia, or Czech or anyone slips out of the top eight do you think they would not invite them? there's no way of knowing that, but my guess would be no. as you said, it's not an IIHF event so there's more to it than just ranking. but as I read it, Germany does not have a protected status at the World cup.2) If you answered "yes" to the above question, then explain the Olympics which is an IIHF event. In Nagano they chose the teams that qualified automatically based on the previous Olympics and World Championships. If that "system" stayed in place then Belarus should have not had to qualify for the Salt Lake games, and Russia should have had to qualify. why? Russia was a silver medalist in Nagano so they were better placed than Belarus (0-3-0, last place in their quarter-final group)But the IIHF changed how they chose the teams. So evenm the IIHF changes the rules to suit its needs. I wouldn't know about that. but what I do know is that Slovakia had to go to the preliminary round for the Olympic tournament in Nagano and SLT3) Why is Germany still ranked eighth? I can't remember the last time they won a game internationally. Latvia, Belarus, Kazakstan all have faired better internationally the last 2-3 years than Germany. not true.
2004. WC final ranking:
1 Canada
2 Sweden
3 USA
4 Slovakia
5 Czech Republic
6 Finland
7 Latvia
8 Switzerland
9 Germany
10 Russia
11 Austria
12 Denmark
13 Kazakhstan
14 Ukraine
15 Japan
16 France
notice: no Belarus
2003. WC final ranking:
don't have them, but only Germany and Switzerland made the quarter-finals besides the hockey powers (the USA team did not make it); notice: no Kazakhstan, Belarus relegated
2002. WC final ranking:
1 Slovakia
2 Russia
3 Sweden
4 Finland
5 Czech Republic
6 Canada
7 USA
8 Germany
9 Ukraine
10 Switzerland
11 Latvia
12 Austria
13 Slovenia
14 Poland
15 Italy
16 Japan
notice: no Belarus, no Kazakhstan
2001. WC final ranking:
1 Czech Republic
2 Finland
3 Sweden
4 USA
5 Canada
6 Russia
7 Slovakia
8 Germany
9 Switzerland
10 Ukraine
11 Austria
12 Italy
13 Latvia
14 Belarus
15 Norway
16 Japan
notice: no KazakhstanI may be way off base on this, but Germany was probably originally chosen for the "Big 8" because they had a few NHLer's (they should have persued German born Dany Heatley before he suited up with Canada - offered him the moon) if they had a few NHL-ers at the time, then it is likely they really were the 8th best hockey nation in the worldbut now there are other countries with just as many or more NHLer's than Germany. are you sure? I will name the Germans and you try to find a country that has more NHL-ers than they do.
Germany -> Kolzig, Hecht, Sturm, Seidenberg (63 games), Ehrhoff (41 games), Butenschon (132 games)R. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Sept 7, 2004 8:48:43 GMT -5
I can't seem to put my finger on it, Goldthorpe, but I just can't get pumped for this World Cup. I don't know why, just feel that way.
Having said that though, I've watched Canada here and there in their previous games and I think they can do better. Sure, they've looked impressive, but I'm still not convinced they are the real deal.
The Russians looked very good in all of their games, but like Canada, I think they could be doing much better.
I don't think I'll ever like Sweden.
It was good to see Finland take out Sweden. However, for whatever the reason, they let Germany play their game and were actually outshot by the Germans 28-24.
The USA seems to be trying hard, but they aren't going anywhere just yet. I remember Kovalev's goal against the Americans and I can't remember who the US denceman was, but being totally undressed like that, at that level, just isn't on (it is on, however, if that guy is Tony Almonte as one of the guys a work pointed out). The US made some adjustments, but I don't think we've seen everything they have to offer just yet.
All this is opinion only, GT. Like I was saying, I can't get up for this tournament. Maybe in the elimination rounds I guess.
Cheers.
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Post by cigarviper on Sept 7, 2004 13:54:47 GMT -5
Why Mccabe or Souray are not on team rather than Hannan or Bouwmeester? Ummm...because they're better, younger and hungrier? |
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Post by seventeen on Sept 7, 2004 21:38:47 GMT -5
Ummm...because they're better, younger and hungrier? If San Jose or Florida offered us either of their two young d-men for Souray, I'm afraid I'd help pack Sheldon's bags. Nothing personal. |
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Post by HabbaDasher on Sept 7, 2004 23:02:00 GMT -5
I'm catching as many games as I can.
Good hockey.
Great players.
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Sept 9, 2004 11:11:34 GMT -5
Exactly! Team Russia played its only exhibition game in Europe ... in Switzerland!! "Those Swiss are vicious. They punched holes in my cheese," - Billy Crystal |
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Post by Skilly on Sept 9, 2004 17:33:51 GMT -5
I am sorry ... I mispoke. In the Salt Lake Olympics they based their rankings on the Nagano Olympics. So if the IIHF holds true to form then Belarus should get an automatic berth. Belarus finished fourth in Salt Lake.
Well then to me, if this is the current world rankings then why wasn't Latvia and Switzerland invited to the World Cup? If they are ranked 7th and 8th. Proves my point that no other country (with the exception maybe of Germany) will be supplanted from this tournament. Even Latvia would have been better this year than Germany.
I believe Belarus has been relagated in both the WJC and the WC into Canada'a group. France and Japan are gone (as is the automatic berth for the far east and Belarus and Slovenia are in) But I never said they are better in the rankings. I said they have faired better internationally. But I should have said faired better against the top six countries. Has Germany ever beaten Russia, Canada, US, Sweden, Finland, or Czechs internationally? Belarus for example in the past 2 years has beaten Sweden with NHLer's.
Germany has 6 NHLer's. Well they actually have 8. You forgot German born Marcel Goc and Dany Heatley. I found a website that said Latvia has 6 NHL'ers, but I can name only five (Ozolinsh, Irbe, Zholtok, Skrastins, Skudra) .... it is an interesting exercise and I will have to research more to do it justice.
EDIT: Vasiljevs and Ashtashenko
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Post by Rimmer on Sept 11, 2004 5:50:53 GMT -5
I am sorry ... I mispoke. In the Salt Lake Olympics they based their rankings on the Nagano Olympics. So if the IIHF holds true to form then Belarus should get an automatic berth. Belarus finished fourth in Salt Lake. well, i don't know when the current ranking system had been introduced, but now the same rules apply to all countries involved. no offense, but to imply that it's introduction had anything to do with Belarus finishing 4th, is, IMO, just speculation without basis. all hockey powers, except Slovakia, made it to the quarter-finals so the new rankings don't change much regarding their status for Torino 2006. the place at the 2006. Olympics will be determined in the following manner: The top eight ranked teams in the 2004 IIHF World Ranking will get an automatic entry to the 2006 Olympic Winter Games. Host Italy (pre-determined ranking 12) will get a direct entry to the Preliminary Round while the remaining three teams will be determined following the Olympic Qualification Tournaments in February 2005.www.iihf.com/news/iihfpr3804.htmyou misunderstood what I had posted last time. those were the final standings (the term 'ranking' may have caused the confusion but it was the term used by the IIHF so I just copy-pasted it) for the last 4 World hockey championships that were meant to show that Germany had more success in the recent international competitions than the countries you had listed. and Germany is currently ranked as the 8th best in the world by the IIHF. |
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Post by Skilly on Sept 11, 2004 9:07:59 GMT -5
Olympics will be determined in the following manner: The top eight ranked teams in the 2004 IIHF World Ranking will get an automatic entry to the 2006 Olympic Winter Games. Host Italy (pre-determined ranking 12) will get a direct entry to the Preliminary Round while the remaining three teams will be determined following the Olympic Qualification Tournaments in February 2005.It will be interesting to see if Russia is forced to qualify for Torino, being ranked 10th. And for that matter if Bettman allows NHLer's in Torino at all. The arguement used against Slovakia for the two previous Olympics has been "we only shut down for 12 days for the Olympics, no more no less". Now Russia can qualify with a rag-tag bunch, we all know that, but when you have to set your rosters by a certain date and most of your roster is in North America playing in the NHL, well it is going to be sticky. Unless they let them replace 23 guys, with a whole new set of 23 guys after they qualify. If the World Cup is for the top eight countries and their is a ranking of those countries in place, then just because a team can field an entire roster of NHLer's should have nothing to do with it. My buddy can do this arguement better than me arguing the pros and cons of Latvia/Belarus vs Germany and Switzerland vs Russia. (I will have to get him to give me the Reader's Digest condensed version and get back to you) I realize the tournament is set up to have "the best hockey players" but they are representing countries and therefore they should have a ranking system to prove that the countries invited are indeed the best countries. |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Sept 11, 2004 10:00:00 GMT -5
My buddy can do this arguement better than me arguing the pros and cons of Latvia/Belarus vs Germany and Switzerland vs Russia. (I will have to get him to give me the Reader's Digest condensed version and get back to you) My, that guy seems to be getting around. |
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Post by Strummerman on Sept 11, 2004 23:32:24 GMT -5
Ummm...because they're better, younger and hungrier? Souray and Mccabe are not that old and pretty hungry and I doubt hannah and Regehr are better. Canada showed defects tonight against the Checks and most of it came from the young defence |
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Post by HabbaDasher on Sept 12, 2004 0:53:12 GMT -5
Canada was slow.
The Czechs, to a man, are skilled and fast.
Their passive trap should have won.
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Post by blaise on Sept 12, 2004 1:01:44 GMT -5
In 2 years, Russia will have a strong young team with Datsyuk, Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Malkin, Kostitsyn, Perezhogin, Zherdev, etc., as well as a more experienced Bryzgalov. Canada will have Crosby but no Lemieux, Sakic, Foote, and others.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Sept 12, 2004 4:03:52 GMT -5
In 2 years, Russia will have a strong young team with Datsyuk, Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Malkin, Kostitsyn, Perezhogin, Zherdev, etc., as well as a more experienced Bryzgalov. Canada will have Crosby but no Lemieux, Sakic, Foote, and others. Will they lose any Chechins? |
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Post by Rimmer on Sept 12, 2004 6:19:52 GMT -5
It will be interesting to see if Russia is forced to qualify for Torino, being ranked 10th. I must be missing something here. how and where is Russia ranked 10th?  R. |
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Post by Rimmer on Sept 12, 2004 6:21:39 GMT -5
In 2 years, Russia will have a strong young team with Datsyuk, Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Malkin, Kostitsyn, Perezhogin, Zherdev, etc., as well as a more experienced Bryzgalov. Canada will have Crosby but no Lemieux, Sakic, Foote, and others. you never know, but i doubt Kostitsyn will ever play for Russia having played for Belarus already. R. |
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Post by blaise on Sept 12, 2004 9:09:47 GMT -5
you never know, but i doubt Kostitsyn will ever play for Russia having played for Belarus already. R. Were those games in under-age tournaments, and does that experience disqualify him? Even without Kostitsyn, the contingent of young Russians is strong. |
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Post by Skilly on Sept 12, 2004 11:28:02 GMT -5
My, that guy seems to be getting around. Not sure what you mean. I refer to a guy I graduated with in this thread. There isn't a trivia question, score, or sporting event the man doesn't know ....... I just feel to do Rimmer's debate justice I should stop talking generally (about time huh?) and get a little specifics. |
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Post by Skilly on Sept 12, 2004 11:41:30 GMT -5
I must be missing something here. how and where is Russia ranked 10th? R. You wrote: And then: In the ranking above Russia is 10th. But I think you meant how they finished not the ranking, but all I saw was ranking. Like I said I am going to do some thinking to attempt to voice a better argument. If I can't do a good job, then my opinion on this has been changed by your persuasive points. |
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Post by Rimmer on Sept 13, 2004 2:10:23 GMT -5
Were those games in under-age tournaments, and does that experience disqualify him? he played for the Belarussian senior team as well and that, according to the rules, disqualifies him from playing for any other country unless certain criteria is met. I think a player must play for 5 years in the league(s) of another country before he is allowed to play for their national team and in that time he cannot play for his home country. of course, rules can change or in some cases avoided (Nabokov played only 4 seasons in Russia, IIRC, but was granted the right to play for Russia recently) you are right about that. what seems to bother them is the lack of quality goalie prospects. I'm surprised nobody wants to be Tretiak anymore... R. |
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Post by Rimmer on Sept 13, 2004 2:16:59 GMT -5
In the ranking above Russia is 10th. But I think you meant how they finished not the ranking, but all I saw was ranking. you are right. that's what i meant. I wrote an explanation in my previous post but you obviously missed it. here it is: you misunderstood what I had posted last time. those were the final standings (the term 'ranking' may have caused the confusion but it was the term used by the IIHF so I just copy-pasted it) for the last 4 World hockey championships that were meant to show that Germany had more success in the recent international competitions than the countries you had listed. and Germany is currently ranked as the 8th best in the world by the IIHF. sorry for the confusion. cheers, R. |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Sept 13, 2004 3:45:56 GMT -5
you are right about that. what seems to bother them is the lack of quality goalie prospects. I'm surprised nobody wants to be Tretiak anymore... R. The politicking surrounding the selection of coaches and coaching staff has been a continual thorn in the side of their international program, and has been one of the chief reasons top tier players have frequently refused to become involved. Perhaps Tattac can explain this situation in more detail. |
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