Interesting proposal from Harry Sinden

[Boston_Habs]

This from Sunday's Boston Globe. Pretty interesting proposal from Harry Sinden. I've been a proponent of getting rid of the red line, but this idea from Sinden is tantamount to getting rid of the blue lines!

PRO HOCKEY NOTES

An open mind toward change
Offensive revisions to get a practical test

By Nancy Marrapese-Burrell | June 5, 2005

Former National Hockey League general manager Brian Burke is fond of saying that Bruins president Harry Sinden is like E.F. Hutton: When he talks, everyone listens.

Beginning tomorrow morning, the hockey world also will be watching as Sinden puts forth ideas on how to improve the on-ice product once the NHL gets back to work. Sinden and coaching legend Scotty Bowman are among a group that will guide experimental concepts during a three-day research and development camp in Toronto.

Overage junior players, who are free agents, and select Canadian college players will put the theories into practice in front of interested executives and media members. Sinden is excited by the possibilities.

''Seeing I kind of authored the thing, I'm expecting quite a bit," said Sinden. ''It depends on the quality of the player they were able to get -- well, not so much the quality but the skill level they have. We think it's going to be good enough and I thought this type of player would give us the competitiveness that it needs. If we were able to bring in pros, I don't think they'd be competitive at something like this, they'd just fool around with it."

He said his most dramatic idea, the ''open-game concept," came about during discussions he had with Bruins GM Mike O'Connell. The club tested it out at the end of February at the FleetCenter with a group of Providence Bruins.

''The biggest change in the whole thing is there is no more offsides," said Sinden. ''The two-line pass we have today remains the same but there is no offsides entering the other team's zone."

In the open game, there is a passing line 20 feet closer to the net than the blue line, thus creating 40 more feet of neutral zone.

''Once you get over that coming out of your own end, you can pass it all the way to their net," said Sinden. ''It's unbelievable the way it opened the door. It's pretty revolutionary. To say the least, it was intriguing, but to say the most, it was fascinating.

''We only had a 45-, 60-minute scrimmage, so it wasn't enough to convince us, but it sure caught the eye of every single person who watched it. I was expecting that it could possibly be something where you said, 'That looks terrible, that's no good, forget it,' and that's why we did it so we could get it out of our minds if it was no good. But it didn't turn out that way."

The players didn't take long to figure out what they were supposed to do.

''They had never seen anything like it before," said Sinden. ''Within five or 10 minutes at the most, they had a good grasp of it. They were able to give us a pretty good indication that [the idea] shouldn't be discarded. I'm not on a crusade for it at all. It's one of those things that kind of impressed us when we looked at it. It does address the biggest problem in the game, which most people think is the defensive part of the game has overtaken the offensive part and the balance has shifted that way, which is not good for ticket sales. It's something we put together in the hopes that the trap would not be effective any more if you played this way."

If the hockey cognoscenti like it, Sinden said, it could be presented to the Board of Governors (along with other rule changes) as early as next season. Sinden believes the open-game idea could free up the best players in the NHL to display their skills, which would translate into a much more excited fan base.

''When Bobby Orr played, he was able to display his great skills from his own blue line all the way to their net because he'd usually receive a return pass there or he'd come around his net and his skill would let him go all the way up the ice," he said. ''I don't think he could do that in today's game. He'd run into the trap.

''It just may be that we've denied ourselves the chance for these great players to display their skills. No one seemed to be able to solve the trap offensively. What they'd do is adopt it themselves and say, 'Well, we can't beat it, so we may as well do it.' "

But Sinden doesn't want anyone to think he's trying to ram the idea down anyone's throat.

''I'm worried sick that these guys across the hockey business will think this is something I'm going to do a high-pressure selling job to anybody I talk to," he said. ''I'm not. It just looked good enough that I think they should see it, too."

Other concepts to be tested in Toronto are different nets (oval, and 13 percent larger), restrictions on goalies handling the puck, smaller goaltending equipment, no icing on penalty kills, no line changes following an icing, strong enforcement against obstruction, and overtime formats including a shootout.

[Deleted]

No offsides, eh?

Seriously, if they're so against the trap, why don't they ban that instead?

[Boston_Habs]

It's obviously much easier to change the lines on the ice than to outlaw a style of play.

Pretty radical stuff, but Harry Sinden is a serious hockey man so his ideas should be given their due. So the rule would be that that the blue lines would be moved 20 feet closer to the nets, and would be used less as a zone marker than as a passing line - once an attacking player crosses his passing line he can pass all the way to the opponent's passing line. I lke it. It's an alternative to getting rid of the red line, but you would be creating even more neutral zone ice with the Sinden proposal and it would be virtually impossible to "move the trap back" as many have argued in defending the use of the red line.

An obvious question would be what happens on a power play? Does the center red line become "the zone" that must be cleared by the defending team or would the traditional blue line be retained for purposes of defining the attacking area?

I think the common cry of "enforce the existing rules" isn't enough. There should be nothing sacred about the lines on a hockey rink. If moving and/or eliminating lines promotes a better flowing game, then what's the big deal? Tradition?

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Jun. 6, 2005. 07:23 AM

It's hard to open the game with closed minds
The NHL has never been big on change

DAMIEN COX
HOCKEY COLUMNIST

It wasn't so long ago that the NHL was categorically denying there were any worrisome problems with the brand of hockey played in the league.

To suggest there were such issues would make one the object of Nixonian-like accusations from Gary Bettman's administration, with Bettman himself publicly criticizing those who believed the game needed fixing as having a hidden agenda and an axe to grind.

Some agenda. Some axe.

Today, there is widespread acceptance of the need to extensively refurbish the NHL game, both inside and outside the NHL.

Yet it's troubling to hear influential types — many of them in the league offices — still contend that only a few little changes are required. A little tinkering here, a little line to be moved there.

Given all that has happened, one wonders what, exactly, would convince them real trouble is afoot. Thirty empty arenas? No television coverage anywhere in North America?

But here's the problem. The same people charged with deciding how the game needs to be changed now are the same folks who, two or three years ago, were arguing passionately that nothing of significance needed to be changed.

So how much hope can there be?

This is akin to having Paul Martin's people design a new federal sponsorship program.

Few are likely to admit that they had it all wrong, that when they were arguing the game was just fine they were more misguided in their beliefs than Ricky Williams.

That's just human nature.

So while it's exciting and interesting to hear the NHL will experiment with all kinds of rules this week during a three-day frozen laboratory session in Toronto, one shouldn't expect much of this to actually be applied to the league when it resumes.

The language being used is "research and development," but the likelihood is that this is intended a lot more as "research" than, ultimately, "development," at least in the short term.

"Somewhere down the line there will be a competition committee," said league vice-president of hockey operations Mike Murphy. "We can then direct these ideas to them. I don't think there will be any decisions this week that will be forwarded to the NHL this year."

Some of the stuff they'll be looking at this week is already set to be part of the NHL when it resumes. Shootouts, almost certainly, will be in after years and years of use in other leagues, and the tag-up offside rule will be put back in.

Smaller goalie equipment will be further tested, but it's coming in despite the kicking and screaming and virulent opposition of every goalie and all the netminding alumni in the broadcasting community.

Happily, they've been overruled by the shooters and common sense.

The more unique and unusual will also be looked at this week, such as the "open hockey" concept forwarded by the Boston Bruins which essentially allows the puck to be moved anywhere on the ice once it is outside a line across the top of the faceoff circles, essentially the same as the ringette line. No blue lines or red lines, in other words, and no offsides. Sort of like pond hockey with boards.

The idea is to at least try some of these things out and gather some hard information. Ditto for the bigger nets, two of which will be tried out.

This is all great. But the fear is that there is no real willingness to do anything but look outside the box, that the conservatism in the game will work against anything truly radical being accepted.

Don't forget, the NHL is expert mostly in coming up with ideas, implementing them, and gradually opting not to enforce them.

They knew goalie equipment was way out of control five years ago, and nothing of substance was done. Obstruction and interference has been tamed in the neutral zone, but in the areas from which you can actually score a goal, it's still a jungle out there.

Something big, really big, is needed, and it would be well within the tradition of the NHL.

Once upon a time it was decided to go from six skaters down to three. Just after the war, the red line was instituted, an enormous change.

The most radical change undergone by the NHL in recent years, the institution of four-on-four play for overtime, has been an enormous success.

Why do these people remain so unable to recognize that big changes deliver big results?

[Forum Ghost]

NHL RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT CAMP OPENS


TORONTO (CP) - The offside whistles for the entire three-period scrimmage could be counted on one hand, and Glen Sather had to grin.

''Could you imagine Wayne (Gretzky) and Mario (Lemieux) playing that kind of game?'' Sather wondered. ''They'd have a field day.''

The New York Rangers boss and other GMs and coaches were at an airport-area arena Monday for the first of three days of rules experiments, and things got started with a look at the ''open game'' concept put forth by the Boston Bruins.

Club president Harry Sinden contends that offences would be liberated and neutral zone trapping obliterated by removing the centre red-line and the blue-lines. Instead he suggests putting thin lines a few feet above the faceoff circles at each end of the ice and allowing passes to go anywhere on the ice once the player with the puck reaches the pass line in his zone.

''I don't know if I'd want to rush into it but I sure like the idea,'' said Sather.

Of course, the Sinden System has about as much chance of being implemented next season as the NHL and the NHLPA had of agreeing on a new collective bargaining agreement before midnight Monday night.

But this camp is all about opening minds and taking a look at whatever bounces out of the brains on board. For three days, anything goes.

''There's a lot of things that have happened since the `80s,'' Sather said. ''Our game has changed from a free-wheeling game to a very tight defensive style.

''A lot of that has got to do with the techniques the coaches have developed. It's a lot easier to defend than create offence. (The Sinden System) is not a lot different from the style of play we used in the `80s - freewheeling, changing lanes, defencemen getting involved. It goes a step further because you've distorted the size of the rink. It becomes a lot bigger without the blue-lines. There's so much skating involved. I think it's exciting. I think it's a great idea.''

It should be tried in the AHL, Sather suggested.

Monday's scrimmage consisted of three 15-minute stop-time periods which each took about 21 minutes to complete because whistles were so infrequent. The final score was 5-2.

The players participating are free agents who have just graduated from major junior and skaters from university teams. They'd never tried the Sinden System so it's not as if it was executed as ingeniously as could be.

The goalies wore leg pads that were 11 inches (28 centimetres) wide - two inches narrower than pads used in the NHL last year, smaller catching mitts than usual, narrower shoulder pads, and sweaters that were tight rather than loose and baggy as seen in the NHL last season so goalies could smother in fabric shots they might have missed.

While the Sinden System probably won't see the light of day, it's lights out on the issue of smaller equipment for goalies. It's a done deal.

''We've worked with the players' association closely on reducing the size of goalie equipment,'' said Colin Campbell, the NHL vice-president in charge of hockey operations. ''We've got to get moving on this now with the manufacturers.''

Compromise solutions to opening up games to allow skilled players to show their stuff probably will be arrived at down the line. Most likely to be implemented is a three-point plan: reduced goalie equipment, reintroduction of tag-up offsides, and elimination of obstruction.

''We should go back to the tag-up rule,'' said Toronto Maple Leafs coach Pat Quinn. ''And we still need a firmer crackdown on interference away from where the puck is so we can get some give-and-go back into the game.

''I don't know what else we can do.''

While Sather liked the Sather System, Quinn was skeptical.

''I don't like the idea that you can throw the puck 160 feet down the ice,'' said Quinn. ''It takes away from teamwork rather than building it.

''I don't want to see a ping pong game. Something this drastic might not be the answer.''

But he's willing to have a look. Why not? He's got nothing else to do.

''You don't know how it's going to work unless you actually try it,'' he said. ''To me, we've got a heck of a game right now.

''We can clean up a few things but, to make drastic changes? I don't know. A lot of us will have to be convinced it'll make our game better and I'm not sure we're there yet until we watch and analyse more. One thing I know is there's no hitting out there, which I don't like.''

He's all for thwarting neutral zone trappers - but not at any cost.

''If we're just going to throw the puck down (the ice) and play like basketball - zone sort of hockey - I'm not interested in that,'' he said.

But, as Campbell reminded, the Sinden System is merely an experiment.

''What we're working on with this experiment is opening up the game,'' he said. ''The trap has stymied our game.

''What the end result of this (experiment) is, I don't know. At least it's an attempt to open up the game.''

Quinn joined the chorus supporting smaller goalie equipment, which had been growing too big for a long time, he said.

''What happened with our goaltenders was not right,'' said Quinn. ''It was less about ability and more about equipment and blocking the net.

''You can look down at the game we're watching right now and you can see (net) space (behind the goalie). That's the way it was in the 1970s and before that.

''We still want them protected properly because guys shoot the puck harder . . . but if we want to increase scoring that's going to be a big step towards it.''

A second scrimmage made use of nets with arced side posts, making net space 17 per cent larger.

''I don't care so much about making bigger nets,'' said Quinn. ''My thoughts were always on make the equipment smaller, and not the nets larger.''

Phil Knapp, a York University forward from Athens, Ont., was one of the skaters taking part.

''There's so much room out there that there's not much checking going on,'' he said. ''It's really open.

''When the puck leaves your end, you can just stand there in front of the other team's net.''

At first, defencemen were standing up at their blue-line as if the blue-line setup was normal. But forwards began circling in behind them to get breakaway passes so the defencemen began staking territory further back towards their goalie's crease.

The smaller equipment wasn't too big a handicap for goalie Brad Topping of London, who played for the Ontario Hockey League's Windsor Spitfires.

''The smaller equipment is definitely a disadvantage for the goalies,'' he said. ''You have to play like you did in your minor-hockey days when you were smaller.

''You have to come out and challenge the shooters and play your angles well and use your reflexes.''



www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=127157&hubName=nhl

[Forum Ghost]

I liked this quote:


''The smaller equipment is definitely a disadvantage for the goalies,'' he said. ''You have to play like you did in your minor-hockey days when you were smaller.

''You have to come out and challenge the shooters and play your angles well and use your reflexes.''

*

Huh? Am I missing something? Aren't these what goalies are supposed to do anyway? Are they being forced to do these things just because they have to suffer with smaller equipment?

It's funny how goalies who have gotten used to their robot gear, see challenging shooters, playing your angles and using your reflexes, as extra work.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

That quote struck me pretty much the same way.

The goalie has no clothes. No more Michelin stars.

[HFTO]

That quote is pretty striking,isn't it!
A goalie having to be athletic,isn't that what there supposed to be?.You might as well stick the goalie guard we played with as kids if they allow the equipment to stay as big as it is!
Now as far as the Sinden line goes,if it didn't turn the game into a glorified game of shinny then they could look at it seriously.
The danger is if they get to radical and trick the game up I'd have no intrest.
The game is fine but they've allowed to many things to creep into the game that was never there.
One rule I did like from this years world juniors,was at anytime you lay the stick on an opposing player that was a penalty.
The parade to the penalty box would be ridiculous at first,but forcing guys to skate after there opponent?.... well that may just be to novel and simplistic of an idea?
HFTO

[franko]

Pity the poor goalie, who is actually going to have to be skillful.

As to the Sinden game, go wild in theory but pull back in practise; wind up somewhere between the traditionalists and the Fox Network.

[Boston_Habs]

franko said:

Pity the poor goalie, who is actually going to have to be skillful.

As to the Sinden game, go wild in theory but pull back in practise; wind up somewhere between the traditionalists and the Fox Network.

Somebody explain to me the purpose of the blue lines and red line the context of promoting or hindering a style of play, other than the pat response of "that's how the game has been played for years." Seriously, i would like someone to explain the technical and aesthetic virtues of the current system.

The architects of the neutral zone trap have exploited the placement of the red and blue lines to create a defensive system that chokes off the advancement of the puck through the neutral zone. EVERYONE admits this is a systemic problem with the game. So why not change the lines? When you think about it, the red line is probably the least "intuitive" part of the game, but folks seem divided on whether the trap would be even worse without it. I think removing the red line AND moving the blue lines back is a way of eliminating this risk and virtually making the off-side whistle a thing of the past. More uninterupted play, more skating, more transition opportunities, more "fast break" opportunties... I love it. I think the hitting would still be there once people get used to it - the one thing I would still want to preserve is the physical play in the offensive zone, the cycling down low, applying pressure with the dmen working the points - that's real hockey too in addition to the open ice play.

I hope this concept at least goes as far as a full testing with NHL players. Once the league comes back, you could have a mini-tournament in the offseason with say 4 teams of randomly selected players or volunteers.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

We don't need stinkin bigger nets.
We don't need any stinkin smaller pads.
We don't need any stinkin shootouts.
We don't need any stinkin blue line changes.
We need Bettman and Goodenow changes!

What good are rule changes if there are no players on the ice?

Making changes to the game to attract Nascar fans to hockey is wrong to all the people who watch the game in Canada, Detroit and Europe. This isn't WWF, Fear Factor or Celebraty Hockey made for TV.

[Forum Ghost]

hfto said:

One rule I did like from this years world juniors,was at anytime you lay the stick on an opposing player that was a penalty.

The parade to the penalty box would be ridiculous at first,but forcing guys to skate after there opponent?.... well that may just be to novel and simplistic of an idea?

It's a radical suggestion, but I don't really mind it. With the amount of behind-the-scenes stick work that's done in today's NHL, implementing a strict rule such as this one is probably what the NHL needs.

After all, the only reason players tug at other players who have the puck is to slow them down. The logic is that if your skates can't keep up with them, maybe your stick will. Well a rule that prohibits players from being able to hook and hold skill players, with their sticks, would be a rule that would allow these skill players to skate and use their speed, no? And once they're allowed to skate freely, without being obstructed left and right, it should lead to more creative plays and scoring chances.

Or atleast that's how I see it.

[seventeen]

When I watch 'Classic' games, the biggest difference I see is the lack of hooking and holding. So I have a simpler solution, a 5 minute major for hooking or holding. Do it a second time and you get a game misconduct. I think you'd see some initial problems, but by game 10, they'd be ironed out and the game would flow. The good skaters could skate. The lummoxes would end up in the ECHL. Say, isn't that where they used to be back in the 70's and 80's?

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

June. 8, 2005. 08:46 AM

NHL brass skip camp in droves
Management types a surprising no-show
Absentees are missing `great opportunity'

KEN CAMPBELL
SPORTS REPORTER

If the NHL's research and development camp was supposed to be the seminal event of the non-season, you wouldn't know it by taking attendance.

Through the first two days of the camp, just 14 GMs and six coaches made an appearance. That means that of the 58 GMs and coaches in the NHL (the Mighty Ducks of Anaheim currently don't have a GM and Darryl Sutter handles both duties with the Calgary Flames), more than 65 per cent of them have chosen not to attend.

And while a number of teams have dispatched assistant GMs or scouts to view the proceedings, nine teams haven't bothered to show up at all. The Philadelphia Flyers, Pittsburgh Penguins, Chicago Blackhawks, Colorado Avalanche, Los Angeles Kings, Phoenix Coyotes, Tampa Bay Lightning, Nashville Predators and Carolina Hurricanes did not have an employee at the event for the first two days.

Not exactly a sterling attendance record for an event that is supposed to chart the future of the on-ice product and re-package itself to NHL fans, "after spitting at them for the last 12 months," as New York Islanders GM Mike Milbury put it.

NHL director of hockey operations Colin Campbell, who organized the event, said part of the reason for the no-shows is the fact that the summit was organized just three weeks ago and a number of hockey people were already committed to other things. But as Milbury pointed out, he changed his schedule so he could be at the camp.

"We provide this and if they don't want to come, hey, it doesn't bother me," Campbell said. "It doesn't disappoint me. Down the road, if people want to make comments, they should have been here."

Another GM summed up those sentiments, saying those who didn't show have little right to complain.

"That's what I told Colie Campbell today," the GM said. "How can these guys stand up at a GMs meeting and bitch and complain when they weren't even part of the process?"

Those who have attended have found it very enlightening and many have discovered they've become more open-minded to new approaches to the game. There probably wasn't a GM in the league who went into the meetings supporting a larger net and while it's likely the league will try almost anything before making the nets bigger, there has been a positive response to the concept because of the camp.

"There are people who are not here for good reasons, but I think anyone who is not here is missing a great opportunity," said Buffalo Sabres GM Darcy Regier, "because it's not just about what's taking place on the ice, it's being able to sit down in small groups and come up with things. You've got a pretty broad spectrum of hockey people and it's a pretty good way to brainstorm and think, to create a think-tank."

All GMs and coaches will receive a videotape of the games in the camp and will be free to give their input. The concepts will then go to the league's competition committee, which will make recommendations to the board of governors for rule changes.

Milbury hopes the competition committee will have the authority to act without having to worry about petty politics and interference from teams promoting their own interests.

"This committee should be able to say, `We're doing this because ... and whatever we come back with, you will accept because you've given us the authority,'" Milbury said. "Let's not go have a beer and talk about it. We've done that for 10 years."

Hall of fame coach Scotty Bowman, whose idea for a reconfigured rink was used in yesterday's afternoon session, said he wants to see his idea attempted with higher-calibre players.

"I personally would like to see them try this in the pre-season," Bowman said. "Try it with high-skill players. It's not easy for these players here."

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

What's wrong with hockey? (choose one)

1. The goalies pads are too wide?

2. The nets are too small?

3. Ties aren't decided by shootouts?

4. The NHL isn't playing?

Why is the NHL wasting time fiddling with the rules that work, when the real problem is Bettman and Goodenow aren't working. They can't agree how to share the revenues and the revenue pot keeps shrinking while they fight. Television revenue is dropping faster than Angelina Jolies undies. Under Bettmans leadership, most teams are losing money and in danger of folding, players mistrust of owners has never been greater, the rich get ticher and the poor get poorer. If Bettman and Goodenow were postal workers they would have been fired by now, and firing a postal worker is almost impossible.