Bertuzzi Reinstated

[roke]

www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=132827

I still think he should have 20 more games, or at the very least 10 more games...

[Forum Ghost]

I think that he's served enough of a punishment.

Glad to see that he'll be back for the start of the season.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

I wouldn't miss him if he left hockey.

[Forum Ghost]

mrbozo said:

I wouldn't miss him if he left hockey.

How come?

I know that I would miss him. After all, he IS one of the most talented players in the league.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

forumghost2 said:

mrbozo said:

I wouldn't miss him if he left hockey.

How come?

I know that I would miss him. After all, he IS one of the most talented players in the league.

He's a criminal as far as I'm concerned—I wouldn't shed a tear if he disappeared from hockey and ended up working in some field that matches his qualifications.

[Forum Ghost]

mrbozo said:

He's a criminal as far as I'm concerned—I wouldn't shed a tear if he disappeared from hockey and ended up working in some field that matches his qualifications.

Then is Alexander Perezhogin also a criminal?

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

forumghost2 said:

mrbozo said:

He's a criminal as far as I'm concerned—I wouldn't shed a tear if he disappeared from hockey and ended up working in some field that matches his qualifications.

Then is Alexander Perezhogin also a criminal?

No. He was defending himself against a criminal (who had bad aim).

[Forum Ghost]

mrbozo said:

No. He was defending himself against a criminal (who had bad aim).

Bashing your stick against someone else's face hardly passes for self-defence. And even if you want to look at it that way, it was still assault with a weapon.

Both Bertuzzi and Perezhogin were at fault for their actions and both were punished accordingly. They were both horrific incidents so I don't see how you can defend one and put down the other.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

forumghost2 said:

mrbozo said:

No. He was defending himself against a criminal (who had bad aim).

Bashing your stick against someone else's face hardly passes for self-defence. And even if you want to look at it that way, it was still assault with a weapon.

Both Bertuzzi and Perezhogin were at fault for their actions and both were punished accordingly. They were both horrific incidents so I don't see how you can defend one and put down the other.

I can, I have, and I will continue to do so.

Bertuzzi stalked and assaulted Moore.

Perezhogin reacted to continued assault.

Start here for my take on Perezhogin.

In the interest of bandwidth, just so you know, my mind will not be changed on this.

[Cranky]

There is a HUGE difference between premeditated assault and excessive force in the course of self defense.

[Deleted]

forumghost2 said:

mrbozo said:

No. He was defending himself against a criminal (who had bad aim).

Bashing your stick against someone else's face hardly passes for self-defence. And even if you want to look at it that way, it was still assault with a weapon.

Both Bertuzzi and Perezhogin were at fault for their actions and both were punished accordingly. They were both horrific incidents so I don't see how you can defend one and put down the other.

I completely agree. Bertuzzi's was a planned assault, however. The NHL officials have decided that Bertuzzi was actually instructed to take out Steve Moore. Although Perezhogin was merely defending himself, he still retaliated which is as frowned upon as making the initial attack. Both players in that area were disciplined accordingly.

I do wish that Bertuzzi would be out for at least a couple dozen games, but the condition that the NHL passed out is fair, such as Bertuzzi cannot play against an NHL game when Steve Moore is in the line-up. If this happens in the playoffs, it could work out to the favour of Moore and his team.

[CentreHice]

Now, we don't know how many more games Bertuzzi would have received had the 2004-05 season not been cancelled.....BUT.....in actuality, he sat out a grand total of only 13 games at the end of the 03-04 season plus 7 playoff games. (IIHF upholding the ruling doesn't count....this is NHL discipline we're talking here.)

Listening to Bill Watters on Leafs Lunch today, in talking with Bertuzzi's agent, Pat Morris, it was revealed that Steve Moore still will not speak to or be in the same room as Bertuzzi. I wouldn't either. Moore's path to an NHL career was no less arduous or dream-filled than any other player's and to see it stalked and brutally attacked and perhaps permanently hindered if not ended is not compensated by 20 NHL games.

After the interview, Watters said, "If Moore's headshot to Naslund had been dealt with in the first place, we wouldn't have had the Bertuzzi incident. Todd has paid the price for headshots."

Yes, the league blew the Moore hit on Naslund....but frontier justice still would have been meted out. Perhaps it's time to suspend/fine the referees for blowing calls. Like the ref who allowed Perezhogin to be molested and swung at before his stick swing.

Have to agree with Mr. B-E's assessment.

What's really ironic? Brad May, who put the bounty on Moore's head, has signed with the Avalanche. And is Lacroix ever hearing it from the fans in Colorado. (source: Leafs Lunch)

[MC Habber]

mrbozo said:

forumghost2 said:

How come?

I know that I would miss him. After all, he IS one of the most talented players in the league.

He's a criminal as far as I'm concerned—I wouldn't shed a tear if he disappeared from hockey and ended up working in some field that matches his qualifications.

Not a believer in forgiveness, I see.

I think the whole "stalking" thing is exaggerated - players "stalk" each other all the time. There was nothing abnormal about this incident up until Bertuzzi threw the punch, and there's no strong evidence that the punch was actually pre-meditated. The fact that Colorado has signed Brad May, against whom Moore has filed suit, tells me that even they don't believe the attack was a big conspiracy.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

There was certainly a familiar streak of the old gutlessness, at least when it comes to the league's head office, in the handling of Todd Bertuzzi's reinstatement. The announcement was made under what was effectively the cover of darkness (a news release timed to coincide with Gretzky's news conference in Phoenix; hard to believe the Coyotes and their new coach weren't complicit), and no public explanation was deemed necessary as to why the punishment now fits the crime.

Everybody earning a paycheque in the league, Gretzky included, seemed awfully pleased that Bertuzzi will be back to start the season, and if anyone is still asking the uncomfortable questions about how he came to break Steve Moore's neck in the name of hockey justice, they're doing it quietly.

That's in every way the old NHL, packed full of apologists, unable or unwilling to distinguish between the game's physicality, its toughness and the kind of assault that would be so quickly forgiven in no other sport. Why is there any reason to believe that that deeply ingrained aspect of the game's culture is about to change for the better?

- tinyurl.com/dd6tl

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

machabby said:

mrbozo said:

He's a criminal as far as I'm concerned—I wouldn't shed a tear if he disappeared from hockey and ended up working in some field that matches his qualifications.

Not a believer in forgiveness, I see.

I believe in justice—that does not necessarily entail forgiveness.

I think the whole "stalking" thing is exaggerated - players "stalk" each other all the time. There was nothing abnormal about this incident up until Bertuzzi threw the punch, and there's no strong evidence that the punch was actually pre-meditated.

The videotape of the incident clearly puts the lie to that perspective.

The fact that Colorado has signed Brad May, against whom Moore has filed suit, tells me that even they don't believe the attack was a big conspiracy.

Rocky Mountain News

Some painful reminders

August 9, 2005

You want early winners and losers in the new NHL? Here's a big winner: The conspiracy that broke Steve Moore's neck.

The league reinstated Vancouver's Todd Bertuzzi on Monday, meaning his suspension for a blindside assault on Moore that could prove career-ending was a grand total of 20 games.

The same number, coincidentally, that former Canucks winger Brad May received during the 2000-01 season for a stick to the head of Steve Heinze, then with Columbus.

May, you might recall, announced a bounty on Moore in retaliation for a hit on Vancouver's Markus Naslund during a game in Denver on Feb. 16, 2004.

May would say later he was only joking about the bounty.

Comedy Central still hasn't called.

- entire article

[Forum Ghost]

A question for those who think that Bertuzzi's reinstatement came too early... if you were Bettman, how much longer would you extend the suspension?

[clear observer]

forumghost2 said:

A question for those who think that Bertuzzi's reinstatement came too early... if you were Bettman, how much longer would you extend the suspension?

Until Moore regains health to the point where he resumes his career.


CO

[MC Habber]

mrbozo said:

The videotape of the incident clearly puts the lie to that perspective.

You must be watching a different tape than I am. Replace Bertuzzi with Kariya and Moore with Bertuzzi, and Bertuzzi doesn't go down, there are no serious injuries, and nobody thinks anything of the incident. Now, I'm not saying Bertuzzi's size doesn't give him a greater responsibility than others (insert Spiderman quote), nor that he shouldn't be punished in proportion to the injuries Moore suffered; I just think the "conspiracy" and "stalking" have been greatly exaggerated and I remain unconvinced that the punch and what followed did not happen in the spur of the moment.

As far as I know, it has never been the policy in any league to keep such players out for as long as the victim is unable to play. If you make that rule for Bertuzzi then you need to apply it to a lot of players, to the point where I think players would be afraid to play a physical game at all. I might have given him 10 or 20 games at the start of this season, purely for the purpose of "sending a message," but he has already served the longest suspension in league history and faces various other issues. I don't think he really got off lightly.

[seventeen]

I think he got off lightly. I also happen to think Moore should be suspended as long as Bertuzzi. I also think Stafford should have been suspended as long or longer than Perezhogin. Both punished events were the effects of previous causes which were bungled by both the NHL and AHL. I'm generally a pacifist, but I don't think you can allow others to bully you or intimidate you. Stafford was trying to injure Perezhogin. Moore tried to injure Naslund. While I can sympathize with the degree of Moore's injury (which could as easily have happened because of the pile-up of players rather than Bertuzzi's sucker punch) I don't sympathize with the fact that he simply faced the consequences of a very ill-advised earlier action. Shame on the NHL for not acting earlier to deal with a dangerous Moore.

[clear observer]

machabby said:

mrbozo said:

The videotape of the incident clearly puts the lie to that perspective.

You must be watching a different tape than I am. Replace Bertuzzi with Kariya and Moore with Bertuzzi, and Bertuzzi doesn't go down, there are no serious injuries, and nobody thinks anything of the incident. Now, I'm not saying Bertuzzi's size doesn't give him a greater responsibility than others (insert Spiderman quote), nor that he shouldn't be punished in proportion to the injuries Moore suffered; I just think the "conspiracy" and "stalking" have been greatly exaggerated and I remain unconvinced that the punch and what followed did not happen in the spur of the moment.

As far as I know, it has never been the policy in any league to keep such players out for as long as the victim is unable to play. If you make that rule for Bertuzzi then you need to apply it to a lot of players, to the point where I think players would be afraid to play a physical game at all. I might have given him 10 or 20 games at the start of this season, purely for the purpose of "sending a message," but he has already served the longest suspension in league history and faces various other issues. I don't think he really got off lightly.

He missed 10 hours of ice-time and will now resume his career earning millions more....in my books, he got off lucky.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

machabby said:

mrbozo said:

The videotape of the incident clearly puts the lie to that perspective.

You must be watching a different tape than I am.

No, the same one that anyone could have recorded at home.

Replace Bertuzzi with Kariya and Moore with Bertuzzi, and Bertuzzi doesn't go down, there are no serious injuries, and nobody thinks anything of the incident.

I would not be so callous as to reduce the incident to a role play exercise.

Now, I'm not saying Bertuzzi's size doesn't give him a greater responsibility than others (insert Spiderman quote)..

I also would not trivialize the incident with cartoon references.

...nor that he shouldn't be punished in proportion to the injuries Moore suffered; I just think the "conspiracy" and "stalking" have been greatly exaggerated and I remain unconvinced that the punch and what followed did not happen in the spur of the moment.

Then you have not followed the case very closely.

As far as I know, it has never been the policy in any league to keep such players out for as long as the victim is unable to play. If you make that rule for Bertuzzi then you need to apply it to a lot of players, to the point where I think players would be afraid to play a physical game at all. I might have given him 10 or 20 games at the start of this season, purely for the purpose of "sending a message," but he has already served the longest suspension in league history and faces various other issues. I don't think he really got off lightly.

So you advocate assault yet expect forgiveness. Interesting. Do you follow any particular religion?

Bertuzzi has basically been given a thumbs up for breaking someone's neck. In some belief systems this would be looked upon as a "good" thing.

If I broke your neck would you be content if I lost a year's pay and was able to go back to work and earned millions while you were still trying to put one skate in front of the other?

[CentreHice]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Owners know....the players know....the coaches know: a year away has not diminished the blood lust of the majority of fans.....and so teams continue to prepare.

One of the rule changes to improve the game would have addressed the issues of goon tactics and frontier justice....but it seems we're still on the path toward "Rollerball". Remember that flick?

Name one other professional sport where marginal talent like Tie Domi attains and maintains millionaire and hero status. Alas, his re-signing with the Leafs was a TOP story in Toronto...worthy of a press conference.

The rules are already in the book. Unless referees send the message via the penalty box and gain the perception necessary to sense escalating behaviour...AND unless the league deals with threats and "bounties" issued from coaches and players....someone will be killed. But of course...no one will mean for it to happen.

[MC Habber]

mrbozo said:

So you advocate assault yet expect forgiveness. Interesting. Do you follow any particular religion?

As far as I can see, I have not advocated assault anywhere in this thread. Certainly, that was not my intention. I suggest that you read Bettman's decision in it's entirety as he explains his rationale quite well.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

machabby said:

mrbozo said:

So you advocate assault yet expect forgiveness. Interesting. Do you follow any particular religion?

As far as I can see, I have not advocated assault anywhere in this thread. Certainly, that was not my intention. I suggest that you read Bettman's decision in it's entirety as he explains his rationale quite well.

This is what I saw as well (you claim that you saw something else):

Subsequent to that game, several Vancouver players, including Mr. Bertuzzi, were quoted as having made public statements specifically regarding Mr. Moore's hit on Mr. Naslund, and promising retaliation. Colin Campbell, Executive Vice President, Director of Hockey Operations, called Brian Burke, then-General Manager for Vancouver, to discuss such statements, and decided to attend the next scheduled game between Vancouver and Colorado. Mr. Campbell attended the March 3, 2004 game between the teams in Colorado, as did I, which game was played without incident.

Five nights later on March 8, 2004, the Canucks and Avalanche played the final regular-season game between the two teams in Vancouver. In the third period, with the score 8-2 in favor of the Avalanche, Mr. Bertuzzi attempted to confront Mr. Moore, but Mr. Moore ignored Mr. Bertuzzi's advances, instead remaining intent on following the play. Having been unable to engage Mr. Moore in a mutual confrontation, at 8:41 of the third period, Mr. Bertuzzi grabbed Mr. Moore's sweater from behind and then punched him in the neck, from behind, with his right gloved fist, jumped on Mr. Moore's back, and drove Mr. Moore down to the ice, face first. Mr. Bertuzzi then again attempted to hit Mr. Moore, but was restrained from doing so by various players from both teams who had already intervened in the altercation. Mr. Moore required immediate medical assistance and was subsequently removed from the ice on a stretcher.

Bertuzzi's "suspension" is an insult to Moore and his family. 17 months? This obviously includes the lockout, during which time not only Bertuzzi but all 700+ NHL players did not play—were all of them as well being punished for attacking Moore?

Bertuzzi should get "closure" when/if Moore gets "closure". In the meantime ban him from the NHL.

[MC Habber]

mrbozo said:

This is what I saw as well (you claim that you saw something else):

I might as well clarify my position, I suppose. What I meant to say was that there was nothing abnormal about what happend on the ice up until Bertuzzi swung at Moore from behind. Also, the statements about Moore's hit on Naslund don't prove anything - it isn't exactly unheard of for players to call for revenge after what they perceive to be a dirty hit. Had Moore and/or Bertuzzi not been on the ice, I doubt so much would have been made of those statements.

I'll again make the point which I made when this happened: if there was really a big conspiracy to "get" Moore, why on Earth would the Canucks choose Bertuzzi - one of their 2 most important players - to do the dirty work? Why not use Brad May or one of several other players they could more easily do without in the playoffs? I don't know what Bertuzzi or anybody else intended, but it just doesn't make any sense to think that Crawford sent Bertuzzi to do that to Moore. I could maybe believe that Crawford sent Bertuzzi to fight Moore (though it still seems like May would have been a better choice), but then what happened is still a reaction by Bertuzzi and not part of a conspiracy.

I absolutely think Bertuzzi should have to pay a lot of money to Moore. It might be a good idea for the NHL to force players who injure other players through clearly illegal acts to pay them a big percentage of their salaries for the rest of their careers. But I don't think Bertuzzi's career should be over (though it remains to be seen whether he'll be able to play like he used to).

[Forum Ghost]

machabby said:

I absolutely think Bertuzzi should have to pay a lot of money to Moore. It might be a good idea for the NHL to force players who injure other players through clearly illegal acts to pay them a big percentage of their salaries for the rest of their careers.

I like that idea. It's a nice compromise. It's a little bit unrealistic to say that Bertuzzi should sit out as long as Moore is out.

A big complaint is that Moore is rehabbing while Bertuzzi is out making millions. If Bertuzzi gives a significant portion of those millions to Moore every year, then it seems like a fair compromise.

[CentreHice]

machabby said:

I'll again make the point which I made when this happened: if there was really a big conspiracy to "get" Moore, why on Earth would the Canucks choose Bertuzzi - one of their 2 most important players - to do the dirty work? Why not use Brad May or one of several other players they could more easily do without in the playoffs? I don't know what Bertuzzi or anybody else intended, but it just doesn't make any sense to think that Crawford sent Bertuzzi to do that to Moore. I could maybe believe that Crawford sent Bertuzzi to fight Moore (though it still seems like May would have been a better choice), but then what happened is still a reaction by Bertuzzi and not part of a conspiracy.

Just a quick hop over to espn.com gives you game summaries. Guess who was on the ice when Bertuzzi attacked Moore at 8:41 of the third period? Brad May....oh yes....he received a 5-minute fighting major and two 10-minute misconducts with Kurt Sauer. Both Bertuzzi's linemates were in that game (Morrison and Naslund) and the Canucks were NOT killing a penalty. So why did Crawford have both Bertuzzi AND May out there at the same time? Down 8-2 (largely due to the Canucks putting "hockey" on the back burner for that game) it's obvious, at least to me, what Crawford and Co.'s intentions were.

Another look at the game sheet shows that Moore had already accepted a fight with Matt Cooke at 6:36 of the first period. Not enough payback I guess as Moore was able to skate into the penalty box.

[MC Habber]

It's a big leap to infer from May's presence on the ice with Bertuzzi that Crawford had planned to have Bertuzzi break Moore's neck (and be without his star forward for the playoffs).

[MC Habber]

centrehice said:

What's really ironic? Brad May, who put the bounty on Moore's head, has signed with the Avalanche. And is Lacroix ever hearing it from the fans in Colorado. (source: Leafs Lunch)

I wonder what would have been the reaction had the Canadiens picked up McLaren after the Zednik hit (which it was strongly rumoured they were going to do).

[CentreHice]

machabby said:

It's a big leap to infer from May's presence on the ice with Bertuzzi that Crawford had planned to have Bertuzzi break Moore's neck (and be without his star forward for the playoffs).

It's a big leap to infer that I'm inferring they wanted his neck broken. No one wanted Moore's neck broken. They did, however, want him hurt....obviously they were not satisfied with Cooke taking him on in the first period.

You argued in your post that if there was a plan to get Moore then "why not use Bray May....." I'm just pointing out that May WAS on the ice, and even though May had both Vancouver goals, I doubt Crawford wanted him to get the hat trick.

Having Bertuzzi and May on the ice at the same time doubled the chances of payback. Maybe one of them begged Crawford to be out there....who knows? But Crawford had the final say.

That game was out of control at 5-0 Colorado after the first period. The Canucks weren't interested in hockey that night, seeing as how they played a brilliant and clean 5-5 game in Colorado the week before...when Bettman and Co. were in attendance, babysitting.

I respect your opinion but we're just not going to agree on this one.

I've said it before, I totally agree that Moore's headshot on Naslund was blown by the refs and the league. Any deliberate blow to the head should be an automatic 15-game suspension IMO....and upwards from there depending upon the severity of the injury.

I also have no trouble believing that Bertuzzi just wanted to lay a good old-fashioned beating on him, as was evidenced by trying to get Moore to turn around. But resorting to a full-force punch to the temple and subsequent face-drive to the ice from behind is flat out criminal. He snapped....and he almost killed a guy.

20 games is not enough.