Luongo's days numbered...?

[Deleted]

www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=134403&hubName=nhl

Luongo, Panthers head to arbitration

TSN.ca Staff with files

8/24/2005 11:23:16 AM

The second day of NHL arbitration hearings is under way, and goaltender Roberto Luongo is next on the list.

Luongo and the Florida Panthers met in a salary arbitration hearing Wednesday morning in Toronto.

It its the first case in NHL salary arbitration history in which the club has elected to take a player to salary arbitration. With each side having made its 20-minute presentation, the arbitrator will have 24 hours to make a decision.

According to reports, Luongo's agent Gilles Lupien said the Panthers were offering $3.4 million US per season before filing for arbitration, and have now proposed that Luongo be paid $2.1 million US (Luongo's salary if the 2004-05 season took place) in 2005-06.

Panthers General Manager Mike Keenan told the media that he made a "very fair offer" during the weekend, which according to Lupien, included no specific dollar amount.

Lupien and his client are reportedly seeking a two-year deal at $4 million US per year that would make Luongo eligible for unrestricted free agency in 2007. A longer term, according to Lupien, would require a higher annual salary.

"I think my numbers are right," Lupien told the Palm Beach Post. "I said to Mike, 'Give him four (million) and four (million) and you've got two full years to find out what number you want to give. If you go to arbitration, it's over. You'll have to trade him.'

Luongo enjoyed a career season with Florida in 2003-04, establishing an NHL record for saves in a season with 2,475 while leading the league with a .931 save percentage. He was also a finalist for the Vezina Trophy as the NHL's best netminder.

The Montreal native, who played his junior hockey with Val d'Or, was taken fourth overall by the New York Islanders in 1997 and played 24 games with the team before they traded him and centre Olli Jokinen to Florida for Mark Parrish and Oleg Kvasha.

Luongo has a 80-138-33 record over five NHL seasons.

Forward Alexander Korolyuk is also set to hold an arbitration hearing today with the San Jose Sharks.

Files from the Miami Herald and Palm Beach Post were used for this report.

[chief]

Excellent. Luongo is younger and IMO a more capable goaltender than Theo. AND, he can be had for cheaper than what Theo is demanding.

I think Bob can use this situation in dealing with Theo. He can try to negotiate Theo down to a reasonable level - around 4-4.5 MM. Theo knows that his greatest worth is in Montreal and likely would not get as much elsewhere. Luongo's potential availability makes Theo expendable in Montreal (he can say goodbye to a big bargaining chip). OR, Bob can just dump him and go after Luongo (do it, Bob).

Assuming no contractual complexities come into the mix, this could be good for us!

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

mattdhf said:

Luongo enjoyed a career season with Florida in 2003-04, establishing an NHL record for saves in a season with 2,475 while leading the league with a .931 save percentage. He was also a finalist for the Vezina Trophy as the NHL's best netminder.

...And has two IIHF World Championship gold medals (back-to-back).

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

I.m leavin' on a jet plane
Won't be back again

*

Leaning towards leaving

Sportsnet.ca -- It looks like top money will not be enough to keep Florida's top Cat in his cage.

A source close to Roberto Luongo's arbitration case told Sportsnet the star goaltender, just minutes before this mornings hearing, turned down a five-year, $25 million deal with the Florida Panthers.

Luongo opted to proceed with the club elected arbitration, which is expected to award him far less for next season. Under the new CBA, in two years Luongo will have the mandatory seven years experience needed to qualify for unrestricted status.

Speculation is Luongo is attempting to persuade the Panthers to trade him.

- www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/article.jsp?content=20050824_133008_4908

[chief]

mrbozo said:

A source close to Roberto Luongo's arbitration case told Sportsnet the star goaltender, just minutes before this mornings hearing, turned down a five-year, $25 million deal with the Florida Panthers.

Maybe Luongo can't be had for cheaper as I suggested - my original post doesn't make sense at that price point . Even so, if I had to choose between Theo and Luongo at 5-5.5MM, I'd pick Luongo.

[duster]

At first glance, it looks like Keenan's little mind game may have backfired on him. Unless the goal was to drive Luongo out of town in the first place. If so, why? It makes absolutely no sense.

[Deleted]

duster said:

At first glance, it looks like Keenan's little mind game may have backfired on him. Unless the goal was to drive Luongo out of town in the first place. If so, why? It makes absolutely no sense.

It's a real shame if Luongo does leave and they don't bring in a legitimate replacement. They've signed some good veterans to lead a very young, direction-disoriented team.

If Luongo goes for some draft picks, Florida loses. Oh, and I doubt we'll be seeing any Luongo for Theodore deals. Theodore is asking about the same amount of money, and Keenan won't be interested in that kind of contract either.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

No, but Théodore and Rivet for Luongo would be irresistable.

[chief]

Luongo only gets 1 yr at 3.2MM!

Source: TSN.ca
tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=134524

Now, if this doesn't prove that Theo is worth no more than 3.5, I don't know what does.

[Doc Holliday]

duster said:

At first glance, it looks like Keenan's little mind game may have backfired on him. Unless the goal was to drive Luongo out of town in the first place. If so, why? It makes absolutely no sense.

Keenan offered 5yrs, 25mil prior to deciding on taking Luongo to arbitration and Luongo turned it down. 5mil a year for a goalie that has won absolutely nothing in this league was a lot, obviously Roberto had no intention of staying in Florida long term...

I don't think Keenan was unreasonable, arbitration was his only option.

[jkr]

docholliday said:

duster said:

At first glance, it looks like Keenan's little mind game may have backfired on him. Unless the goal was to drive Luongo out of town in the first place. If so, why? It makes absolutely no sense.

Keenan offered 5yrs, 25mil prior to deciding on taking Luongo to arbitration and Luongo turned it down. 5mil a year for a goalie that has won absolutely nothing in this league was a lot, obviously Roberto had no intention of staying in Florida long term...

I don't think Keenan was unreasonable, arbitration was his only option.

You're right - five years/ 25 million is a lot of money for a guy that has won nothing at the NHL level. I know people here are lobbying for him but does Montreal really need another goalie that has an inflated picture of his worth?

[duster]

I agree that Keenan's offer was more than fair. What I don't understand is why did he wait until the last minute to make it? There was ample time to restart negotiations in earnest prior to the hearing. It seems to me that a lot of "grief" could have been prevented.

That being said, I'm not sure I like Lupien and Luongo's greed.

[Yeti]

There's no trust between the Luongo clan and Keenan and I think a trade will happen, either now or next summer. Lupien and Keenan won't negociate together another contract for Luongo. If Keenan is fired (which seem to happen every 2-3 years) then it's another story...

[Disgruntled70sHab]

mrbozo said:

No, but Théodore and Rivet for Luongo would be irresistable.

Sigh! Someone is consistently beating me to the line. Ah well ... speed is the third thing to go at my age me thinks.

This is the thing. Théo is a very good technical goaltender with flashes, flashes mind you, of outright brilliance. But, those flashes are here and there. Other than that, yes, he's a strong starting goaltender who would be hard to push out of a position. I feel him to be one of the top 3/4, possibly 5 (depending on what game it is of course), goaltenders in the game.

Luongo, now, is the goaltender of the future. He has the mobility and the size, and I think size will come into it especially when these new pads come into effect.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Théo won't be effective with these new pads, far from it. But, who would you want in nets down the road?

I don't dislike Théo, that's for sure. But, I just feel Luongo has that much more upside.

Cheers.

[HFTO]

It's hard to speculate what Luongo's intentions are but in his case he hasn't proven he can take a team even as far as the playoffs.In Theo's case he has had one career season and only moderate success in the playoffs.
To be paid as a franchise players both are going to have to atleast take their team to the finals especially as both the teams in front are improving.
HFTO

[seventeen]

hfto said:

It's hard to speculate what Luongo's intentions are but in his case he hasn't proven he can take a team even as far as the playoffs.In Theo's case he has had one career season and only moderate success in the playoffs.
To be paid as a franchise players both are going to have to atleast take their team to the finals especially as both the teams in front are improving.
HFTO

You can't expect to win the Monaco Grand Prix in a Hyundai Pony, and that's what Luongo's been driving.

[jkr]

seventeen said:

hfto said:

It's hard to speculate what Luongo's intentions are but in his case he hasn't proven he can take a team even as far as the playoffs.In Theo's case he has had one career season and only moderate success in the playoffs.
To be paid as a franchise players both are going to have to atleast take their team to the finals especially as both the teams in front are improving.
HFTO

You can't expect to win the Monaco Grand Prix in a Hyundai Pony, and that's what Luongo's been driving.

Until he actually wins something, I will stick with Theodore.

Luongo has had one great season & is now trying to cash in. This is the same thing that posters are trashing Theodore for.

[jkr]

disgruntled70shab said:

mrbozo said:

No, but Théodore and Rivet for Luongo would be irresistable.

Sigh! Someone is consistently beating me to the line. Ah well ... speed is the third thing to go at my age me thinks.

This is the thing. Théo is a very good technical goaltender with flashes, flashes mind you, of outright brilliance. But, those flashes are here and there. Other than that, yes, he's a strong starting goaltender who would be hard to push out of a position. I feel him to be one of the top 3/4, possibly 5 (depending on what game it is of course), goaltenders in the game.

Luongo, now, is the goaltender of the future. He has the mobility and the size, and I think size will come into it especially when these new pads come into effect.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Théo won't be effective with these new pads, far from it. But, who would you want in nets down the road?

I don't dislike Théo, that's for sure. But, I just feel Luongo has that much more upside.

Cheers.

I have to disagree. As I said in my posts in the Pin the Salary on Theo thread, I believe that Theodore has accomplished more in a much more pressure filled environment. He is only 2.5 years older than Luongo and has won a World Junior Chanpionship as well as the Hart & Vezina.
Luongo can hide behind the fact that he plays on a poor team. He remains a mystery at the NHL level. To date, he has not played in the NHL playoffs.

You are right about the size issue. Luongo is 3-4 inches taller than Thoedore and this may be an issue but we all have to wait and see how the goalie equipment scenario plays out.

I will stick with the devil we know for now.

[Skilly]

mrbozo said:

mattdhf said:

Luongo enjoyed a career season with Florida in 2003-04, establishing an NHL record for saves in a season with 2,475 while leading the league with a .931 save percentage. He was also a finalist for the Vezina Trophy as the NHL's best netminder.

...And has two IIHF World Championship gold medals (back-to-back).

Why would Florida want to compensate him for non-NHL achievements? Rest assured, that international stats and accomplishments do not enter the arbitration debate.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

skilly said:

mrbozo said:

...And has two IIHF World Championship gold medals (back-to-back).

Why would Florida want to compensate him for non-NHL achievements? Rest assured, that international stats and accomplishments do not enter the arbitration debate.

Who said they should? I was merely providing as complete a portrait of Luongo's ability and achievements as I could.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

jkr said:

Luongo can hide behind the fact that he plays on a poor team. He remains a mystery at the NHL level. To date, he has not played in the NHL playoffs.

Good piont JKR, thanks. I honestly don't believe Luongo is hiding behind anything to tell you the truth. It's fact he does play on a very weak team. You said yourself, he's never played in the playoffs. But, he too, has represented his country at last year's World Cup. And, it has to be said, he did very well when replacing Brodeur. And, if you look at his statistics they'll show you he did remarkably well given the circumstances.

I will stick with the devil we know for now.

I'm not willing to move Théodore immediately, but I would be willing to move his off-ice problems. Right now he's turned downed Gainey's initial offer. I know what he's won in the past and he's in the Olympic Team camp also. But, I thought Gainey's offer was fair considering what Théo's done since winning his Hart and Vezina. Besides, Luongo is in Olympic team camp as well.

The only thing that irks me is that Luongo had to go to arbitration. If he did that with Florida he's sure to do that with Montreal (or any othe club for that matter) as well. If not now, then surely later.

As I was saying, I'm looking to move Théo just yet. But if Luongo were to become available I think Gainey would seriously have to look at it.

And, if it came up, I'd probably get the deal done. But, that's just me. Thanks.

Cheers.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

disgruntled70shab said:

jkr said:

The only thing that irks me is that Luongo had to go to arbitration. If he did that with Florida he's sure to do that with Montreal (or any othe club for that matter) as well. If not now, then surely later.

I agree with you post Dis, but I must clarify one point.

Keenan took Luongo to arbitration, not the other way around. Luongo/Lupien were quite willing to continue negotiation. Hence Luongo's subsequent disillusionment and bitterness.

[duster]

This is how I see it as well. If Keenan would have made his $25 million offer, let's say, two weeks ago, I'm pretty certain that arbitration and the subsequent ill will would have been avoided in the first place. Lupien's position of 4 million per annum over the next two years was an initial negotiating position and not a final offer.

Things changed when Keenan announced his intent to take Luongo to arbitration before his contract offer. Waiting to make the said offer minutes prior to the meeting is simply a mind game, imo. Carrot and stick, vintage Keenan.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Mathias Brunet talks to Luongo and Lupien

[Disgruntled70sHab]

mrbozo said:

disgruntled70shab said:

jkr said:

The only thing that irks me is that Luongo had to go to arbitration. If he did that with Florida he's sure to do that with Montreal (or any othe club for that matter) as well. If not now, then surely later.

I agree with you post Dis, but I must clarify one point.

Keenan took Luongo to arbitration, not the other way around. Luongo/Lupien were quite willing to continue negotiation. Hence Luongo's subsequent disillusionment and bitterness.

Thanks Mr. B. I even read that earlier in the week. Pretty good business move by Keenan I have to say.

Cheers.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

disgruntled70shab said:

mrbozo said:

disgruntled70shab said:

I agree with you post Dis, but I must clarify one point.

Keenan took Luongo to arbitration, not the other way around. Luongo/Lupien were quite willing to continue negotiation. Hence Luongo's subsequent disillusionment and bitterness.

Thanks Mr. B. I even read that earlier in the week. Pretty good business move by Keenan I have to say.

Cheers.

Gainey may wish he'd done the same with Théodore.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

mrbozo said:

disgruntled70shab said:

mrbozo said:

Thanks Mr. B. I even read that earlier in the week. Pretty good business move by Keenan I have to say.

Cheers.

Gainey may wish he'd done the same with Théodore.

Just curious, but I wonder if Gainey considered this already? Given Théodore's achievements it might just go either way with the arbitrator. At least when you compare him to Luongo.

Cheers.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

disgruntled70shab said:

mrbozo said:

disgruntled70shab said:

Gainey may wish he'd done the same with Théodore.

Just curious, but I wonder if Gainey considered this already? Given Théodore's achievements it might just go either way with the arbitrator. At least when you compare him to Luongo.

Cheers.

Gainey, as we have seen, is very circumspect when dealing with his players at the negotiating table. The thought surely merited some consideration on his part, but, as the current negotiation status would indicate, was dismissed when weighing the other factors.

As for the comparison of Luongo and Théodore, HabsRus readers are well aware of my assessment of the relative merits and potential of the two goalies. Suffice it for me to say that a salary of $3.5M would make Théodore the 6th highest paid goalie in the league—ample remuneration for recent services rendered.

However, due to the albatross of his previous contract the QO of $4.56M is likely the least he will earn.

As long as he delivers satisfactory bang-per-buck, no matter his salary, I'll be content.

[Forum Ghost]

mrbozo said:

As long as he delivers satisfactory bang-per-buck, no matter his salary, I'll be content.

Same here. I don't have a problem with Theo the goalie or Theo the person, but I do have a problem with him holding the team for ransom whenever his contract is up and then not living up to the big bucks. But if he lives up to the big-money contract, then great. There won't be any complaints from me.

For being among the league's best goalies in the NHL, he should be compensated accordingly, but nothing outrageous. In other words, he shouldn't get greedy.

Prior to signing his deal, Marian Hossa compared himself to Iginla and said that he should be paid something close to what Iggy is making. According to reports, Muckler did not want to pay any Senator more than what Alfredsson is making. Long story short... Hossa got greedy and got moved from a team that is challenging for the Cup to a team that might not even make the playoffs.

[insomnius]

forumghost2 said:

Hossa got greedy and got moved from a team that is challenging for the Cup to a team that might not even make the playoffs.

Good thing for hijm Heatley needed a change of scenery!


/sarcasm off