Theo Trade?

[Polarice]

Its been a quiet couple of days around the Montreal boards and I've been quite board myself and I think I've been on just about every hockey related site on the net.

The topic that is on most of them is the Theo trade rumor with Tampa. Now I'm dead set against trading Theo for anybody, because its my belief that in order to have a winning franchise you need a franchise goaltender.

However, with the way things have been going in Montreal and the way negations have been going I'm getting the feeling that a trade is in fact coming. You do not treat your star the way Gainey is treating Theo, unless you don't in fact believe he is the one to lead your team or he would have been signed long ago.

So with that in mind, and the fact the we believe that a trade is coming, and with all the rumors out there which rumor do you think would in fact be the best for Montreal.

Some of the more probable rumors are:

1. Theodore for Richards and Graham?

2. Theodore for Zetterberg or Datsyuk along with Osgood or Legace.

3. Theodore for Tanguay and Abeisher.

Now all 3 of these teams are considered weak in net but carry an offensive punch. All three are in some sort of cap trouble and would like to make some sort of trade to help their goalie situation and have lots of talent up front to spare.

Now my question is do we really need more offensive talent right now? Why are all the trade rumors out there talking about forwards, I believe we need defenders if anything especially if we trade down goalies.

If thats the case Colorado would be out of the picture, they have no defense to speak of.

What about Detroit? They have Jiri Fischer and Jason Woolley, not bad but for Theo? How about getting Schneider back?

Tampa, I think has the best defensive core in the NHL, (other than Calgary), Montreal could ask for, Dan Boyle or Pavel Kubina, Cory Sarich, Darryl Sydor or any combination.

My point being that these rumors would be more believable if they included Defensemen.

Thats my thoughts anyway. Any comments are welcome.

[franko]

Slow day (at least morning) so I get to pretend to work while doing something non-productive. Life is good.

Theo for any of the above mentioned:Graham, Osgood, Legace, or Abeisher is a definite downgrade and would have just about everyone calling for BG's head on a platter.

BG had to know a cap was coming, and he had to know what Theo would be asking, so I can't see this quandary/tactic coming as a surprise to him. He's just biding his time.

Besides, if he was going to put Theo on the trade market he'd have kept Garon. Period.

But the discussion keeps life interesting. Next week we talk about prospects. Then . . . let the games begin.

[cigarviper]

Well, hindsight is 20/20 right? I think we can all agree that trading Garon was, well, an error. Maybe not huge one but an error nonetheless as it would serve a purpose in the situation we find BG in now. So can assume that he has looked at his team, sees some missing peices. Looks at his budget. Looks at his cap and decides, "We're years from being serious cup contenders. Let's draft our future star goalkeeper and start heading towards the salary level in today's NHL structure for that position." If that's the case, I can see Theo being traded for some serious defensive end help and/or complementary offence and relying on rookie keepers or 2nd tier puckstoppers until Danis/Price and company flourish into what they COULD be. It's the deepest position we find ourselves in right now, so it should be the one with the least amount of risk attached. Sure, there's risk, but isn't there risk in everything? Just a thought.

[Habit]

I'm surprised a team like NYR or the like haven't offered Theo (a RFA) an offer sheet at about 5M. That would give BG a chacec to match, and get him signed.

And if Bob didn't want to sigh him, he could get 3-4 first round picks instead.

[The Habitual Fan]

I don't see the Garon trade as an error since it got the team a big upgrade in Bonk and a very capable backup in Huiet. It was just unfortunate that Huiet was injured during the summer.
While the rumors of a Theo trade are out there Tampa and Detroit are certainly much worse off with the cap than Montreal and neither could afford to take on a big salary for one more player.
I'm also not sure Theo has been mistreated by anyone since we do not know how the negotiations have been going.
Gainey has made offers and Theo's agent knows where the Habs stand. I think Meehan may have been waiting for Luongo to settle so he could be used as a point in negotiations. He may have misjudged by hoping Luongo would get a much higher payday.

[Cranky]

Don't mistake silence as a prelude to a trade. MeMoi thinks he has the upper hand but in reality, Gainey can sit back and wait. At worse, Theo is going to sign the qualifying offer so we have a solution for this year. Then he can discuss MeMoi long term future after the season begins.

Don't FORGET one thing. The hyena is trying to get MeMoi a raise RIGHT NOW by signing for more then then the qualifying offer.

Look at the numbers....

4.56 now plus 6 mil x 3 = 22.56 over four years.

The hyena wants 4/22.5 RIGHT NOW.

Why would Gainey get off his butt to talk about that? We are all excited and can't wait until the season starts but in reality, outside the normal hockey markets, there is a big snooze fest. Don't mistake the internet frenzy by blind hockey addicts as earthquake support for the "new NHL". With this in mind, if there cap gets lowered next year, MeMoi is not going to get more then 5 million...at best. One must not forget that you still need a full roster so any lowering of the cap is going to hit the high dollar signers DIRECTLY. A drop form 39 million to 35 million means that no intellegent GM can sign ANYONE for more then 5 million without crippling his team.

So Gainey is doing EXACTLY what a smart manager should be doing but we, as hockey fans want some kind of "action" to fill every bored minute of our lives.....

[Ryan]

The way I see it, we still need Theo for as little as one year, and as many as 4.

Danis is not ready this year, but he could be by next year in a pinch in tandem with a veteran if Theo leaves.

On the other hand we could sign him to a 3-4 year contract, which gives Price the needed time to develop. IMO Price needs two more years in junior and 1-2 years in Hamilton to be considered a threat to the starters job.

I think my best case scenario is this. Theo is signed for two years. Danis goes to Hamilton this year and plays every game. That's right, every game. In fact, we won't even dress a back-up. Ok, I've thought about it, and 60-70 games is fine. Next year Danis gets his share of games in Montreal and proves capable of taking over the following year. By then Price is in Hamilton, and hopefully doing well. Danis starts for 2 years in Montreal, and by then Price is ready for primetime and may the best man win. Hey, whaddya know, we're back to Theo vs. Garon.

And then Halak comes in and just dominates...

[jkr]

habitualfan said:

I don't see the Garon trade as an error since it got the team a big upgrade in Bonk and a very capable backup in Huiet. It was just unfortunate that Huiet was injured during the summer.

I agree, I see the Garon trade the same way.

And I don't see Theodore as being mistreated. If he does feel that way he has had the good sense to keep quiet ( unlike Luongo).

This is a case of a strong GM facing one of the best agents around. I don't see Meehan as some hot head like Drew Rosenhaus ( Terrell Owen's agent) who is going to be confrontational and stir the pot. It's not Meehan's style. This is just a process that is going to take some time. I wouldn't read anything else into it.

[legaspesien]

polarice said:

Its been a quiet couple of days around the Montreal boards and I've been quite board myself and I think I've been on just about every hockey related site on the net.

The topic that is on most of them is the Theo trade rumor with Tampa. Now I'm dead set against trading Theo for anybody, because its my belief that in order to have a winning franchise you need a franchise goaltender.

However, with the way things have been going in Montreal and the way negations have been going I'm getting the feeling that a trade is in fact coming. You do not treat your star the way Gainey is treating Theo, unless you don't in fact believe he is the one to lead your team or he would have been signed long ago.

So with that in mind, and the fact the we believe that a trade is coming, and with all the rumors out there which rumor do you think would in fact be the best for Montreal.

Some of the more probable rumors are:

1. Theodore for Richards and Graham?

2. Theodore for Zetterberg or Datsyuk along with Osgood or Legace.

3. Theodore for Tanguay and Abeisher.

Now all 3 of these teams are considered weak in net but carry an offensive punch. All three are in some sort of cap trouble and would like to make some sort of trade to help their goalie situation and have lots of talent up front to spare.

Now my question is do we really need more offensive talent right now? Why are all the trade rumors out there talking about forwards, I believe we need defenders if anything especially if we trade down goalies.

If thats the case Colorado would be out of the picture, they have no defense to speak of.

What about Detroit? They have Jiri Fischer and Jason Woolley, not bad but for Theo? How about getting Schneider back?

Tampa, I think has the best defensive core in the NHL, (other than Calgary), Montreal could ask for, Dan Boyle or Pavel Kubina, Cory Sarich, Darryl Sydor or any combination.

My point being that these rumors would be more believable if they included Defensemen.

Thats my thoughts anyway. Any comments are welcome.

Don't trust the blog.....

From the blog

Late Night Update
Nothing really to report, I just got back from Toronto. I did recieve an email that said the Canadiens' are not showing Theodore the attention he deserves, which has led to some speculation that he could be traded. I'm not trying to start trade rumours, but there are definatly a few teams that would love to get a guy like Theodore or Luongo, and have some younger players that could be dealt due to cap problems. A team like Detroit could package a Zetterberg or Datsyuk along with Osgood or Legace. Tampa Bay could potentially deal Brad Richards and John Graham. What about Colorado sending Tanguay and Abeisher for a goalie? These two goalies are two NHL franchise goalies, and I think if they are on the market, these are the types of offers you are going to see. Teams like Colorado, Detroit and Tampa Bay are weak in net, and are in cap trouble. A team like Colorado, an offensive powerhouse, could afford to lose a guy like Tanguay if they were to get an elite goalie in return.

[Polarice]

legaspesien said:

Don't trust the blog.....

From the blog

Late Night Update
Nothing really to report, I just got back from Toronto. I did recieve an email that said the Canadiens' are not showing Theodore the attention he deserves, which has led to some speculation that he could be traded. I'm not trying to start trade rumours, but there are definatly a few teams that would love to get a guy like Theodore or Luongo, and have some younger players that could be dealt due to cap problems. A team like Detroit could package a Zetterberg or Datsyuk along with Osgood or Legace. Tampa Bay could potentially deal Brad Richards and John Graham. What about Colorado sending Tanguay and Abeisher for a goalie? These two goalies are two NHL franchise goalies, and I think if they are on the market, these are the types of offers you are going to see. Teams like Colorado, Detroit and Tampa Bay are weak in net, and are in cap trouble. A team like Colorado, an offensive powerhouse, could afford to lose a guy like Tanguay if they were to get an elite goalie in return.

This stuff is all over the net, I've read the same stuff on at least 3 different boards.

Remember the old saying where there's smoke there's fire!

[Doc Holliday]

polarice said:

1. Theodore for Richards and Graham?

2. Theodore for Zetterberg or Datsyuk along with Osgood or Legace.

3. Theodore for Tanguay and Abeisher.

Now all 3 of these teams are considered weak in net but carry an offensive punch. All three are in some sort of cap trouble and would like to make some sort of trade to help their goalie situation and have lots of talent up front to spare.

Now my question is do we really need more offensive talent right now?

The teams you mention would be ready to trade offensive talent in order to get prime goaltending... I can't help but wonder why would we go the opposite route and trade prime goaltending (and become weak there) to get some offensive punch (or even defensive punch)?

I could understand a move that would land us a Richards or Lecavalier or Heatly or any other kind of franchise studs but trading a franchise goalie for a weaker goalie and some offensive upgrade reminds me a lot of the Roy trade.

[Forum Ghost]

I would prefer if Theo stayed in Montreal and Gainey signed him to a long-term deal. I don't think that the silence in negotiations should be confused with Theo being treated badly by Gainey.

We have to remember that Gainey already gave Theo a very fair offer of $14M over 3 years. That comes out to few hundred thousand dollars less than $5M per season. Therefore I don't think that Gainey and Meehan are that far off in the numbers. IMO, both men are just playing hardball.

Out of the three proposals, the only one that interests me is the Theodore for Richards and Graham proposal. The other ones aren't enough IMO. The only downside to trading Theo to TBay would be that he stays in the conference. If a Theo trade were to happen I would prefer it to be to a Western conference team.

But like I said, I think the Habs are better off if they keep Theo. Both sides aren't too far off in terms of numbers. Hopefully something can get done by next week so that Theo can show up in time for training camp.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

habitualfan said:

I don't see the Garon trade as an error since it got the team a big upgrade in Bonk and a very capable backup in Huiet. It was just unfortunate that Huiet was injured during the summer.
While the rumors of a Theo trade are out there Tampa and Detroit are certainly much worse off with the cap than Montreal and neither could afford to take on a big salary for one more player.
I'm also not sure Theo has been mistreated by anyone since we do not know how the negotiations have been going.
Gainey has made offers and Theo's agent knows where the Habs stand. I think Meehan may have been waiting for Luongo to settle so he could be used as a point in negotiations. He may have misjudged by hoping Luongo would get a much higher payday.

Agree. Trading Garon was not an error.
a) He was unhappy as a backup playing 15 games a year behind Theo.
b) We have too much talent in goals to protect them all. Danis and Price have more upside potential than Garon who is good but limited.
c) Theo will never de displaced by Garon.
d) We received more than we gave up in trade.
Theodore being unhappy is not a surprise. He is closer to Rat Pack swinger with hells Angels than Milroy style Albert Schweitzer/Mother Tericia and his agent is closer to Don King than Steinberg.
Theodore is high maintenance. We didn't handle Roy the way we shoulda/coulda and we shouldn't make the same mistake with Theo. The TEAM is bigger than any one player and if camp starts without him signed, he loses more than the team does. We shouldn't stick it to him, but we can't capitulate either. If we have to trade him we'll do it and include him in a package for a Richards the way we once talked of trading him to Calgary in a Heart swap. Danis and Price may be rushed, but they're not chopped liver. Somebody on the farm will earn the right to start.
Theo is good, but not that good. His hockey card reads that he once won the Heart and Vezina a long time ago. He hasn't come close to winning them again since then.

[Skilly]

Sweet Gentle (enter expletive here).

A long time ago??? 3 years is now a long time ago? By that rationale, Tampa Bay won the Stanley Cup way back when , and New Jersey won a long time ago. There is rhetoric, and then there is rhetoric!

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

skilly said:

Sweet Gentle (enter expletive here).

A long time ago??? 3 years is now a long time ago? By that rationale, Tampa Bay won the Stanley Cup way back when , and New Jersey won a long time ago. There is rhetoric, and then there is rhetoric!

2001-2001 is a long time ago.
Over four years ago we rejoiced that Jose Theodore, the first Montreal Canadiens MVP since Jesus was wearing short pants was going to lead the improving team to the promised land. At last we were going to forget Patrick Who?
It didn't happen. Jose was a one year wonder! He improved a mediocre career battling with Ti-bo and winning the starting spot. He came from nowhere to win the MVP. He continued his career as a good goaltender, better than average, but not close to repeating as MVP. He battled anually with his contract demands and his off ice antics that nearly caused him to be traded for Iginla (we now wish).
If he was half as good as he thinks he is, he would be worth the money he is asking for. He's good, but he isn't better than Luongo and hasn't been since April 2001.
The team is more important than any one player.
The team is better with him in nets than without him in nets.
The team is better off with Price or Danis in nets if they want to be there and Jose doesn't.
I like Ryder too and want to see him signed, but it's still August and we only have two players unsigned. We are a long way from a team that is full of holdouts and limping into the start of a new season.
How many posters would like to see Iginla here instead of Theo?
I believe that caving in to the demands of a single player would be more disruptive to tha team than starting the season with Theo unsigned or signed to a one year offer.

[habmeiseter]

Am i the only one that thinks that he WILL win a stanley cup. He has proven to be a big game goaltender through his whole career and won an MVP for god sakes. If he is just better than average why was he invited to the Team Canada Olympic camp? Cloutier wasn't.

[Skilly]

habsfaninla said:

skilly said:

Sweet Gentle (enter expletive here).

A long time ago??? 3 years is now a long time ago? By that rationale, Tampa Bay won the Stanley Cup way back when , and New Jersey won a long time ago. There is rhetoric, and then there is rhetoric!

2001-2001 is a long time ago.
Over four years ago we rejoiced that Jose Theodore, the first Montreal Canadiens MVP since Jesus was wearing short pants was going to lead the improving team to the promised land. At last we were going to forget Patrick Who?
It didn't happen. Jose was a one year wonder! He improved a mediocre career battling with Ti-bo and winning the starting spot. He came from nowhere to win the MVP. He continued his career as a good goaltender, better than average, but not close to repeating as MVP. He battled anually with his contract demands and his off ice antics that nearly caused him to be traded for Iginla (we now wish).
If he was half as good as he thinks he is, he would be worth the money he is asking for. He's good, but he isn't better than Luongo and hasn't been since April 2001.
The team is more important than any one player.
The team is better with him in nets than without him in nets.
The team is better off with Price or Danis in nets if they want to be there and Jose doesn't.
I like Ryder too and want to see him signed, but it's still August and we only have two players unsigned. We are a long way from a team that is full of holdouts and limping into the start of a new season.
How many posters would like to see Iginla here instead of Theo?
I believe that caving in to the demands of a single player would be more disruptive to tha team than starting the season with Theo unsigned or signed to a one year offer.

For starters, he was awarded the Hart and Vezina Trophy in July of 2002. This is August 2005, heck let's say September 2005 (for the sake of 1 day). That is 3 years and 2 months ago, maximum.

What has happened in those years? The first year he had a bad year. It happens.

The second year he had a solid year. Same basic numbers as his "career year", but not good enough when compared against his peers.

The third year nobody played hockey.


If you want to go back through history, there has been a plethora of goalies who had bad years after a great year and went on to win more hardware or Cups in subsequent years. Crucifying Theo now after 2 seasons since his "career year" is foolish. We know what he can do and the team is not only "better with him in the nets" they are contenders with him there. Without him in goal, we are hoping for our bingo ball to come out first!!

Danis and Price aren't ready. Danis couldn't even handle AHL pressure (with some NHL content). I for one am not hoping to say "I told you so", and the goalie bashing will be ten times worse if we don't have Theo ....... I still don't get why alot of people on here like losing, we don't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning without Theo.

[jkr]

[quote author=skilly board=Trades thread=1125407526 post=1125491074Danis and Price aren't ready. Danis couldn't even handle AHL pressure (with some NHL content). I for one am not hoping to say "I told you so", and the goalie bashing will be ten times worse if we don't have Theo ....... I still don't get why alot of people on here like losing, we don't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning without Theo.[/quote]

You're right. The team needs him right now and he knows it.

The Habs could qualify Theodore for a year and let him walk next season as some people have suggested and then get nothing for him. Then Montreal gets into the free agent pool with everyone else and prays they can sign a quality goalie.

It's a huge gamble and can't be allowed to happen. It is too much like the leafs "plan" for 2006.