|
|
Post by jkr on Nov 30, 2005 23:00:30 GMT -5
The Bruins area better team now but I am glad to see Thornton leave our division. You've got to be kidding. |
|
|
|
Post by HABSLAND on Nov 30, 2005 23:01:06 GMT -5
Christmas has come early in San Jose, what a nice gift by the Bruins, baffles me how they can get no impact player back, I mean hes 26, a big body presence a franchise player, these guys come around 1 every 5 years and they get Sturm back to replace him on offence, I dont know about you but it reminds me of the Roy trade, panic move by O'Connell.
|
|
|
|
Post by blny on Nov 30, 2005 23:05:08 GMT -5
Major surprise. Losing Thornton is a big mistake IMO. First thing I ask myself is does this mean Marleau is on the way out in SJ. Can Wilson keep both around long term? That's a lot of muscle in the middle if he can.
So, Boston get's Sturm, Primeau, and Stuart. Sturm is a good two way guy, but I'm not sure where he fits. Primeau is a bit part. He's a decent utility player, but won't light the world on fire. Stuart is a nice addition on defence. If Leetch is back, that is Leetch, Stuart, Boynton, Slegr, Gill, and a couple of others. It's a good group. I don't think what they got equals Thornton though. Joe is an elite forward. He can lead a team. It's as if Boston chose Samsonov over Thornton. I don't agree with that at all.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Nov 30, 2005 23:11:55 GMT -5
I am going around to some Bruins boards and some are ready to jump out windows.....some are resigning themselves to mediocrity and some just want to be Hab fans now.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2005 23:15:57 GMT -5
I am going around to some Bruins boards and some are ready to jump out windows.....some are resigning themselves to mediocrity and some just want to be Hab fans now. Those who switch allegiances because of a bad move aren't true fans. Shut up. I know I was a Leaf fan once.  |
|
|
|
Post by franko on Nov 30, 2005 23:21:01 GMT -5
Shut up. I know I was a Leaf fan once. Yes, but welcome to sanity. |
|
|
|
Post by CentreHice on Nov 30, 2005 23:27:51 GMT -5
Those who switch allegiances because of a bad move aren't true fans. Shut up. I know I was a Leaf fan once. Have you shared your epiphany with the other lost souls? |
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Nov 30, 2005 23:30:47 GMT -5
Shut up. I know I was a Leaf fan once. Really!?!?!?!? *writes it down in little black book* |
|
|
|
Post by seventeen on Dec 1, 2005 0:43:59 GMT -5
You may be underestimating Stuart, who was once projected to be a stud defenceman. He's a little bit older to still have tons of potential, but the Bruins love swinging for the fences when a young defenceman is involved. Having said that, I don't think Stuart is going to become good enough to make up the difference on a Thornton. Sturm is a good guy, and Primeau's type are a dime a dozen. The edge goes to San Jose, but Boston once gave up Barry Pederson, a top centre, for a first rounder and a project (Cam Neely). Pederson ended up being damaged goods and soon retired, while the Canucks finished 3rd last and Boston also ended up with Glen Wesley. I think Sinden knew Pederson was done, so don't underestimate his deviousness or outright crookedness.
|
|
|
|
Post by NWTHabsFan on Dec 1, 2005 0:58:06 GMT -5
You may be underestimating Stuart, who was once projected to be a stud defenceman. He's a little bit older to still have tons of potential, but the Bruins love swinging for the fences when a young defenceman is involved. Having said that, I don't think Stuart is going to become good enough to make up the difference on a Thornton. Sturm is a good guy, and Primeau's type are a dime a dozen. The edge goes to San Jose, but Boston once gave up Barry Pederson, a top centre, for a first rounder and a project (Cam Neely). Pederson ended up being damaged goods and soon retired, while the Canucks finished 3rd last and Boston also ended up with Glen Wesley. I think Sinden knew Pederson was done, so don't underestimate his deviousness or outright crookedness. Mr Regina Pat, who was traded to the Hitmen, and then went straight to the NHL from the WHL...pretty heady stuff for the 3rd overall pick. Big points in the Dub, big NHL expectations. Geez, we have been there, done that. Interesting to see if this salvage job gets over the fact that the GM alienated the B's top player and team captain during contract negotiations. Not the stuff of which contenders are made. |
|
|
|
Post by Polarice on Dec 1, 2005 6:42:07 GMT -5
Man, am I the only one who thinks this is a great trade for Boston?
Thornton, lost his heart and had to go, he was not playing like the Thornton of old, for a big man he didn't like getting into the corners and fighting for the puck. If a player hit him hard, that was it...he would go cry on the bench and whine for the rest of the game.
Since when dose a power forward get 6 minutes in penalties?
Boston dose not need goal scoring that bad when they got guys like Samsonov, Murray, Axelsson, Bergeron who by the way could be very dangerous if he can get a bit more ice time.
In return Boston got some good character guys who will give the team much more depth.
Sturm, Primeau, and Stuart should be a perfect fit for Bostons style of play.
I think this could be very bad news for Montreal, I much rather have Thornton in Boston, come playoffs he just mails it in, he can't handle the pressure.
Anyway, look out for Boston,m they are on their way up.
|
|
|
|
Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Dec 1, 2005 7:02:44 GMT -5
Man, am I the only one who thinks this is a great trade for Boston? There are a few others. He is playing better than the Thornton of old: 23 games, 9-24-33, which projects to 113 points by season's end and would be the most productive campaign of his NHL career. The 6 PIM is a huge positive. One of the few flaws in his game was that of being a hothead and putting his team in penalty trouble. Besides, as we know, you can't score from the sin bin. Thornton's departure from the Bruins is almost entirely based on his acrimonious and very public wrangling over his last contract, during which time Thornton blurted, "I will never play for the Bruins again." That and Jeremy Jacobs' need to keep the servants in their place, and save a buck wherever possible. |
|
|
|
Post by Polarice on Dec 1, 2005 7:15:30 GMT -5
I just wasn't talking about his goal scoring, I was also talking about his leadership.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Dec 1, 2005 7:35:46 GMT -5
Man, am I the only one who thinks this is a great trade for Boston? Thornton, lost his heart and had to go, he was not playing like the Thornton of old, for a big man he didn't like getting into the corners and fighting for the puck. If a player hit him hard, that was it...he would go cry on the bench and whine for the rest of the game. Since when dose a power forward get 6 minutes in penalties? Boston dose not need goal scoring that bad when they got guys like Samsonov, Murray, Axelsson, Bergeron who by the way could be very dangerous if he can get a bit more ice time. In return Boston got some good character guys who will give the team much more depth. Sturm, Primeau, and Stuart should be a perfect fit for Bostons style of play. I think this could be very bad news for Montreal, I much rather have Thornton in Boston, come playoffs he just mails it in, he can't handle the pressure. Anyway, look out for Boston,m they are on their way up. No your not. I drool over Thorny type of players and I have watched him decent into a heartless "points man". This is a TEAM game and those players make the Booins TEAM better. On the other hand, if Thorny playes like he can, IF HE WANTS TO, then the Sharks are big winners. |
|
|
|
Post by Boston_Habs on Dec 1, 2005 7:55:41 GMT -5
Kevin Dupont's column in the Boston Globe pretty much sums it up:
He'll have to his find way in San Jose
By Kevin Paul Dupont, Globe Staff | December 1, 2005
Joe Thornton and California.
That just seems to fit, doesn't it, dude?
Joe Thornton and Boston.
Somehow, it just never worked. Not the way anyone hoped, or expected.
Teen angels, fanboys, and stat geeks will mourn Thornton's trade last night to the Sharks, because he was considered the franchise savior even before he was drafted in 1997, as well as the fact he put up some strong offensive numbers. Even this year, when he often appeared to be playing in a fog, for the most part disengaged and lackluster, Jumbo Joe flirted with the top 10 scorers in the game.
But, at close inspection, to the trained hockey eye, there was just no there there this season with Thornton.
Early on, second week of the season, he had a bad back. For two months, he rarely was spotted in front of the net, where the league virtually hung out a ''vacancy" sign this season, encouraging one and all to work the low slot. Thornton just never registered with the front desk. He was content, comfortable to set up shop behind the goal line or stand along the right half-board, looking to pass, clearly steering away from heavy contact -- or the places one might expect heavy contact.
Is that what we call Bruins? Hardly.
It was, quite frankly, puzzling to the point of disbelief.
It was that level of disinterested, even disconsolate play, that led general manager Mike O'Connell to wheel Thornton out of town. It was a combination of lack of play, real gritty and committed play, and a heavy paycheck, one that accounted for a sizable chunk of the club's $39 million salary cap.
Consider: Thornton over the summer signed a three-year guaranteed deal worth $20 million. Everyone immediately labeled it a no-trade contract. Truth is, as evidenced by this deal, the no-trade did not apply to this season. It begins with the 2006-07 season. All of which means the Bruins had only this season -- the two-thirds that remain of it -- to get out from under the deal if they felt he wasn't worth the money. They watched him play. They looked at the books, as well as the decline in the standings, and for the last two weeks O'Connell worked the phones feverishly to get him gone. They felt he wasn't worth the money.
Clearly, the names Brad Stuart, Marco Sturm, and Wayne Primeau don't have the marquee value of Thornton. Fans love big names in this town, which is why there was such gnashing of teeth not long ago when the Patriots finally dumped Drew Bledsoe and got on to the business of winning, winning, and winning some more. Even with Tom Brady so blatantly in command of the position, the Bledsoe boosters couldn't understand why the Patriots were saying adieu to Drew. Some of the fanboys still haven't recovered.
It will be that way around here, especially on all sports radio, for many weeks, especially if Thornton racks up big numbers out West. Imagine how the radio airways would burn today if this deal had the weight of Phil Esposito being dished to the Rangers for Jean Ratelle and Brad Park 30 years ago. Yeow. Not that anyone in this deal, on either side, is the equal of Mssrs. Esposito, Ratelle, or Park. Not even close.
Stuart can be considered a top-four defenseman, and on the Bruins, desperate for help back there, he projects as a top pairing defenseman. He should be at the point, perhaps with Brian Leetch, on the No. 1 power-play unit.
Sturm, one of the game's legit speedsters, has top-end speed and hands that can keep pace with his legs. That sounds simple, but it is rare. Think of guys such as Derek Plante and Russ Courtnall, brother of ex-Bruin Geoff Courtnall. They both could burn. But in both cases, their impact was rather short, simply because their feet and hands were constantly out of synch. A note of concern with Sturm: He jumped out to a strong start this season, but his production quickly stalled and remained flat. The Sharks figured he would really benefit under the new rules, but it hasn't happened.
Primeau, more or less a throw-in, is a veteran big man (6 feet 4 inches, 230 pounds) who fills the void left in the wake of Dave Scatchard being dealt recently to Phoenix for David Tanabe. He'll get his 10 minutes or so as a fourth-liner, even more if the Bruins are forced to kill a lot of penalties on a given night.
As for cap relief, another essential part of the deal from Boston's perspective, the incoming ex-Sharks make a combined $5 million this year -- one-third of which already has been played. The Bruins will save about $1 million in cap money this season, and about the same next year, when the incoming trio will see their pay boosted to a total of $5.65 million.
We'll begin to find out today how coach Mike Sullivan sorts out who will wear the captain's ''C" left behind by Thornton. The most obvious pick would be Leetch, already more of a presence in the dressing room in two months than Thornton was in seven-plus years. Nick Boynton would be another excellent choice, but his game has struggled this season, and his pair of contract holdouts would make awarding him the ''C" a bit dicey, in management's eyes. Boynton remains the rare breed in today's game, a guy who legitimately burns when his team loses. Also not a Thornton trait.
Perhaps the best way to go here would be to rotate the ''C" on a monthly basis, the practice made popular by the Minnesota Wild. Shifting it around can create a bond and send a message of shared responsibility. On a team that has had such dramatic roster turnover -- in part because of ownership's demand to burn the roster to the ground at the onset of the Sept. 2004 lockout -- the velcro ''C" could be the answer.
In San Jose, Patrick Marleau is the franchise front man, a bit of coincidence there because Marleau was the No. 2 pick to Thornton's No. 1 in '97. Thornton will arrive with the higher offensive profile, but he won't have to handle the burden of wearing the ''C." He can take a spot comfortably in Marleau's shadow, do his thing, and not be looked upon to lead or be a physical presence. Could work great. Kind of like Bledsoe with the Buffalo Bills, Bledsoe with the Dallas Cowboys, Bledsoe with . . .
The lasting image of Thornton in Boston will be his final moments in the spoked-B Tuesday night in New Jersey. On a faceoff to goalie Andrew Raycroft's right, he was undressed by Devils center John Madden, who pulled the puck directly to Alexander Mogilny behind him. Mogilny ripped it home for the 3-2 win with just over 30 seconds left on the clock. Two points down the drain.
A dismayed Thornton, looking like the guy in Times Square who just found out his pocket was picked, stared up to the rafters in total dismay. Not even 24 hours later, O'Connell sent him packing to the Silicon Valley. He will be remembered on Causeway Street not for what he was, or what he did, but for what he wasn't and what he failed to do. The work forever in progress now can try to get it done somewhere else.
|
|
|
|
Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Dec 1, 2005 8:00:23 GMT -5
Hmmm, to judge by some opinions Thornton is Bonk with a scoring touch. At the devilish salary of $6.66M would he have been worth that much in a Habs jersey?
|
|
|
|
Post by blny on Dec 1, 2005 8:13:34 GMT -5
Sometimes it's never enough.
If Joe became a Mario Lemieux type of player would that be bad? He's producing more than a point a game and doing it playing at less than his usual level. I can't think of any team that would refuse him in their lineup.
After a couple of rocky seasons to start his career, he really became what they wanted. A face, and a player that they could build around. IMO he's still that player. In this day and age, few deals go through without players passing physicals etc. If SJ was worried about his long term health, they wouldn't have made the deal.
|
|
habamaniac
Rookie
Newsy Lalonde the 1st superstar
Posts: 7
|
Post by habamaniac on Dec 1, 2005 8:26:05 GMT -5
Thanks Santa .....next on my list could you please trade Heatley and Alfredsson to western team as well. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D can't help it.
|
|
|
|
Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Dec 1, 2005 8:28:27 GMT -5
Sometimes it's never enough. If Joe became a Mario Lemieux type of player would that be bad? He's producing more than a point a game and doing it playing at less than his usual level. I can't think of any team that would refuse him in their lineup. After a couple of rocky seasons to start his career, he really became what they wanted. A face, and a player that they could build around. IMO he's still that player. In this day and age, few deals go through without players passing physicals etc. If SJ was worried about his long term health, they wouldn't have made the deal. Thornton wants to be the No. 1 player in the NHL. But against the Senators, he wasn’t even in the top 10 forwards on the ice. Thornton has been far more consistent this season, less prone to no-shows like Saturday. But that was a bad night to take off. The question persists: Is the back injury that sidelined him briefly last month an ongoing problem? - bruins.bostonherald.com/bruins/view.bg?articleid=114454&format=text |
|
|
|
Post by Doc Holliday on Dec 1, 2005 8:41:01 GMT -5
Sometimes it's never enough. yep. That's the feeling I got from reading Dupont's article. "...Oh sure the guy is a top 10 player, a franchise center and an offensive dynamo... but he's not where we want him....and he's not enough of a leader...and he's got smelly feet and gna-gna-gna... whiny, whiny, whiny..." If Dupont is happy because his team traded the beef that pulled the plough in exchange for a few chickens, than good for him because he's not done writing article explaining that view... |
|
|
|
Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Dec 1, 2005 9:54:29 GMT -5
McKenzie: Thornton trade pretty unbelievable
12/1/2005 12:49:50 AM
The shock value of a trade like the Joe Thornton to San Jose trade is pretty unbelievable.
We knew that the Boston Bruins were in dire straits. Maybe firing the general manager or the coach wouldn't have surprised anybody. We knew the San Jose Sharks were in dire straits, but what we didn't think was that the Bruins would trade the face of their franchise and their number one overall pick from 1997.
Having said that, as much as this came out of left field for a lot of us, there's been an uneasy relationship between Thornton and the Bruins organization dating back to the 2004 playoffs. There seemed to be a lot of talk this past summer on whether he'd sign a long term deal - it was initially supposed to be a five-year deal, then it went down to a three-year deal - so you wondered if maybe at the end of this year, the Bruins might have chosen to go in a different direction if things didn't work out.
But after 26 games, it's a shock.
I think most people would say they are surprised that the Bruins did not get a number one centre coming back in the deal. They got a very good defenceman in Brad Stuart and a good winger in Marco Sturm and they got a good utility player in Wayne Primeau but they don't have a number one centre on their team. Alexi Zhamnov might be the number one centre now with zero goals in nine games.
But the other thing that really surprised me in talking to a lot of NHL general managers is that they didn't know about the deal. If you've got an asset like Joe Thorton and you're going to move him, you would almost think that the best-case scenario would be an auction situation. Get as many teams bidding on him as possible. But as near as I can tell, that didn't happen.
So the very fact that a lot of general managers I talked to after the deal had no idea that it was going down tells me that this was Boston and San Jose talking almost exclusively to each other and trying to trade each others problems and get both their teams out of a funk.
|
|
|
|
Post by Boston_Habs on Dec 1, 2005 9:57:15 GMT -5
Sometimes it's never enough. yep. That's the feeling I got from reading Dupont's article. "...Oh sure the guy is a top 10 player, a franchise center and an offensive dynamo... but he's not where we want him....and he's not enough of a leader...and he's got smelly feet and gna-gna-gna... whiny, whiny, whiny..." If Dupont is happy because his team traded the beef that pulled the plough in exchange for a few chickens, than good for him because he's not done writing article explaining that view... I agree totally, Doc. So Thornton never emerged as the second coming of Cam Neely. So what? Mario Lemieux was never a physical player either despite being 6-4, 230 lbs. Does that mean he was soft too? Even though he has been "playing in a fog", Thornton still produced 33 points in 23 games. Not too shabby. The object of the game is to score goals. If you can do that with a mean streak they will love you in Boston, but Thornton is still one of the top 10 forwards in the league and a player you can build around. Bad move. |
|
|
|
Post by insomnius on Dec 1, 2005 10:12:23 GMT -5
The Bruins did NOT improve. Can't wipe the smile off my face. Yeah baby! I bet Andrei Markov is grinning too after taking all those spears from that beeyotch - Mark my words - Thornton will be at the Olympics and we will wish he wasn't... |
|
|
|
Post by del on Dec 1, 2005 10:58:36 GMT -5
To bad the bruins didn't talk to Mtl as well, Gainey could have offered them....
.........Joese Theortndore....in return....straight up!
|
|
|
|
Post by TheHabsfan on Dec 1, 2005 11:01:56 GMT -5
I wonder what it would take to see him in a Hab's uniform? Ryder, Perez and Komo or sure. ...how about Koivu, Souray and Bulis... How about NO THANK YOU!!! Koivu is half the size and has twice the heart...we saw that in the playoffs. Thornton is a big, talented player, but he is in no way, a winner. THF |
|
|
|
Post by Boston_Habs on Dec 1, 2005 11:51:44 GMT -5
Just poor asset management by Boston as well. Payroll issues aside, take a look at the nucleus Boston had in the 2000-01 season compared to where they are today:
2000-01
Forwards: Thornton, Allison, Guerin, Samsonov, Rolston, Knuble
Defense: McLaren, Gill, Boynton, Sweeney
Goalie: Dafoe, Raycroft
2005-06
Forwards: Murray, Samsonov, Bergeron, Sturm, Zhamnov, Axelsson
Defense: Stuart, Boynton, Gill, Leetch
Goalie: Raycroft, Toivonen
The B's went from having 2 big offensive centres in Thornton and Allison, a power forward in Bill Guerin, a dynamic winger in Samsonov, a future 30-goal power forward in Mike Knuble, and a couple of solid 2-way guys in Rolston and Axelsson. Now they have Murray, Bergeron, and Samsonov and that's about it. The blueline is a bit better but the talent pool in Boston has gone way downhill. Part of that is due to money issues and it's OK to let guys walk but you need to put the money to good use. They basically turned Jason Allison into Glen Murray, which has worked out, but they let Guerin walk, they let Rolston walk, they bombed on the McLaren trade (Jeff Jillson), they let Knuble walk, and they just traded their 100-120 point franchise centre for a good but not great dman, a 2nd line winger, and a throw in.
I live in Boston and drove into work this morning to the sounds of irate fans just ripping the Bruins organization. Ordinarily it would be a welcome sound but I don't hate the Bruins as much as I used to in the 70s and 80s and I generally like to see all the Original 6 teams do well (except for Toronto, of course).
|
|
|
|
Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Dec 1, 2005 12:09:26 GMT -5
Hmmm, to judge by some opinions Thornton is Bonk with a scoring touch. At the devilish salary of $6.66M would he have been worth that much in a Habs jersey? If Boston thought Thornton was not producing the way a 6"4" center should, what would they think of Bonks production? I don't like teams that trade for ageing stars at the end of their careers, but in no way is Thornton at the end of his career. Looking forward to the next series of Montreal Boston games, even if they won't be playoff games. Compare the ages of Kovalev and Thornton. Compare their production. Hmmmmmmmm............. |
|
|
|
Post by BadCompany on Dec 1, 2005 12:09:46 GMT -5
I guess after missing out on his first choice to bolster his defense, O'Connell must have felt he had no choice but to trade Thornton to get Stuart. Losing out on Hainsey
O'Connell acknowledged he had had interest in ex-
Mass-Lowell defenseman Ron Hainsey, acquired via
waivers yesterday by Columbus. Picked 13th overall by
the Canadiens in the 2000 draft, the 6-foot-3-inch
Hainsey had been demoted to the minors and was
lucked by the Blue Jackets upon being called up by the
Habs. ''Yeah, we liked him," said O'Connell, ''and his
price made him even more interesting." Hainsey, due
$550,000 this season, will be paid by both Columbus
and Montreal, per rules of the new CBA, and the clubs
will split the hit to their cap.www.boston.com/sports/hockey/bruins/articles/2005/11/30/disappointed_mceachern_awaits_next_move/?page=2 |
|
|
|
Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Dec 1, 2005 12:12:35 GMT -5
The trade put San Jose's payroll at $30M. No idea about Boston's cap situation.
IMO this trade was about, in no particuler order: 1) Jacobs putting that pissant Thornton in his place, 2) O'Connell and Sullivan desperately trying to save their own necks, 3) Money. Less to do with Thornton the hockey player.
|
|
|
|
Post by habernac on Dec 1, 2005 12:18:17 GMT -5
Koivu is half the size and has twice the heart...we saw that in the playoffs. Thornton is a big, talented player, but he is in no way, a winner.
Yep. Same injury as Koivu last time in the playoffs. Saku was mvp-like and Joe was invisible. That said, I still don't like this trade for Boston.
Also, Oc'connell didn't even shop him to most of the league. Idiotic, as he could have had more elsewhere.
|
|
