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Post by TheHabsfan on Jan 7, 2006 19:04:45 GMT -5
68% of respondants on RDS.ca say yes....what do you say?
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Post by PTH on Jan 7, 2006 19:18:41 GMT -5
Well, it depends.
What for ?
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If we're trading him, IMO we need to get 2 things in return:
-a legit NHL goalie. Someone decent, without being any kind of a star. Aebisher would work, or an equivalent to Garon 2 years ago, or perhaps Biron.
-a legit big-name NHLer, someone who will make a major difference over 82 games.
Roy was supposed to get us Fiset and Nolan back in 1995 (Serge Savard was fired shortly before closing the deal, this isn't speculation or rumour, it's pretty well a fact. The fact that both Fiset and Nolan were traded within a year is an indication of how they were considered trade bait), I'd expect something similar - not as high-level, but something comparable in some way.
If we can't get that type of return, no, we shouldn't trade him. Aebisher and Tanguay is what I'd want for Theo + some (non-AK and non-Ryder) winger.
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Post by jkr on Jan 7, 2006 20:15:53 GMT -5
Aebisher and Tanguay is what I'd want for Theo + some (non-AK and non-Ryder) winger. Anything additional to Theodore for Aebischer & Tanguay is too much IMO. |
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Post by MC Habber on Jan 7, 2006 20:23:04 GMT -5
Aebisher and Tanguay is what I'd want for Theo + some (non-AK and non-Ryder) winger. Anything additional to Theodore for Aebischer & Tanguay is too much IMO. That's what I think too. |
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Post by Cranky on Jan 7, 2006 20:50:18 GMT -5
I have been trading Theo since the dawn of civilization, yet he is still here.....sadly.
PTH, I don't see how you are getting equal value if you are only getting Tanguay plus Aebischer. We need more then that. At this point, Aebischer is worth less then Huet because he is a failed number one. By himself, Aebischer is worth a third round draft choice and maybe a second for a desperate team. Tanguay is not a franchise player. Yes, he accumulates points but in my opinion, he is no back breaking game buster. Besides, he is eligable for free agency the following year and he will cost at least 4 million.
Sooo....any trade for Theo has to be for a franchise player. I would trade him even up for the likes of Richards or Lacavalier or Gagne but not Tanguay.
Or....
I would trade him for a young stud player like BooBooBowmeester or Phaneuf. By the way, why did we draft Kotsy and not give Gainey's left nut to move up one lousy spot and draft somone like Phaneuf? I don't get it. Isn't Savard and Timmins supposed to be hockey drafting Gods?
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Post by olematelot on Jan 7, 2006 22:03:36 GMT -5
My question is who is he going to be traded for. IMO it would have to be for a proven #1 goaltender because we don't have any in waiting. Chances of someone giving up a #1 goalie are slim. My answer to a trade is definitly not
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Post by MC Habber on Jan 7, 2006 22:08:35 GMT -5
At this point, Aebischer is worth less then Huet because he is a failed number one. By himself, Aebischer is worth a third round draft choice and maybe a second for a desperate team. He just won his third straight game and he's not yet 28. I think it's a bit early to label him a failure. |
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Post by Cranky on Jan 7, 2006 22:19:57 GMT -5
At this point, Aebischer is worth less then Huet because he is a failed number one. By himself, Aebischer is worth a third round draft choice and maybe a second for a desperate team. He just won his third straight game and he's not yet 28. I think it's a bit early to label him a failure. It is not the one who label him a failure. It's the Av's management who are trying it trade him for tha last few years. In fact..... Since the Av's management has little confidence in him, it may be that Aebischer is meeting their expectations. Look at Garon, they love him in LA (in a manly kind of way  ) and he has responded with star performances. I don't mind him in net as long as we have a real stud forward (plural?) or defensman come along with the deal and we are developing another Roy or Dryden in the minors. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 7, 2006 22:57:13 GMT -5
The only way you can trade Theodore is if it actually improves the team. And that goes for off-ice contributions as well. Any player or players coming this way would have to be bonafide marketable NHLers.
Couldn't tell you who but that's not why I voted "no." Basically, any team that has playoff aspirations must have a blue-chip goaltender. While Theo hasn't been at that level (yet) this year, he still has it in him. Whatever is holding it back will have to be dealt with.
Besides, one way to bring that out of him would be to trade him. He'd pay immediate dividends to any gaining team. Can you imagine not getting the same in return? Suicide for Gainey.
Don't get me wrong though. While I don't think he'll get to his Vezina/Hart level, I think he'll re-emerge into a reliable goaltender soon enough.
Cheers.
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Post by seventeen on Jan 7, 2006 23:13:08 GMT -5
If Theo dons Superman's uniform and paints a vertical slash over the "S", you'd have the heart of the man. We need someone with a CH on their Chest, not a $.
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Post by HFTO on Jan 8, 2006 12:08:44 GMT -5
Unfortunately the reason were having this conversation is because Theo has basically played like a backup and is not even close to earning his new contract.This obviously has lowered his value around the league and puts alot of pressure on BO to swing a proper deal.
That being said given that the Habs blew the Roy trade which the Habs back a whole decade and counting a trade of Theo has to bring back a major, major return.
Which I agree brings in a more than decent backup and a franchise player on the backend and or up front.
I don't see too many wealthy teams in a position to make such a deal at this moment whom might think that by giving up such players will be nullified by a return to form of Theo.
Had Cloutier not gotten hurt Vancouver may have been an ideal partner if they thought Theo would be the answer on the coast.I wonder if the Florida rumours would surface in this instance,but the Habs may not get the better of the deal if they are the ones sweetening the pot.
Ideally Theo is the guy who has to right this ship or if he can't then the Habs maybe sunk dumping him and hope he doesn't find his groove or be stuck with an under achiever for three more years.
UGGGH!!!!!!!!!........we can't seem to win anymore.
The curse of St.Patrtick
HFTO
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 8, 2006 13:30:06 GMT -5
68% of respondants on RDS.ca say yes....what do you say? Typical. Ask the same question after a win with Theo in nets and 90% will say no. I'm with PTH, just like for anyone's on this team if the team can be made better via a trade that includes Theo than by all means how can I be against it. He carries a heavy salary though and so when thinking of trading Theo, you must include another high salary guy coming the other way. To go HA's way and add fuel to the fire, Tortorella has been really unhappy with his goaltending and he got in a verbal feud with Lecavalier in the dressing room... again. Theo/Zednik/Ribeiro for Lecavalier/Graham/Andreychuck. |
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Jan 8, 2006 13:45:06 GMT -5
Very simply,,,,no Theodore should not be traded. If the team did not think he was a number one goalie then what tetam in their right mind would give up a number one goalie for him??
Montreal does not need a future goalie prospect because they believe that have that in Danis or Price and neither one of them is NHL ready.
If you trade him for a franchise player such as Richards or Lacavlier then that may help plug an offensive hole but opens a huge one in goal.
I really don't care if they sit Theo for the next 10 games and go with a Huet and Danis tandem while Theodore gets extra instruction to get his game back, but I would be more than concerned if Huet and Danis is your goaltending tandem for the next 2-3 years.
As for Luongo, last night he gave up 4 goals on 25 shots and has not looked any better then Theo this year.
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Post by Forum Ghost on Jan 8, 2006 14:09:36 GMT -5
Theo/Zednik/Ribeiro for Lecavalier/Graham/Andreychuck. I like it. And although I've been on the "Trade Theo" campaign for the past few years, the only way I would happy if he was traded is if we get back key components in a deal. Doc's proposal would be great, but the Tanguay and Aebisher one would be a poor deal. Tanguay's a good player, but Aebisher would not be too big an improvement on Huet. |
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Post by Forum Ghost on Jan 8, 2006 14:14:31 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong though. While I don't think he'll get to his Vezina/Hart level, I think he'll re-emerge into a reliable goaltender soon enough. But being just "reliable" is not going to be good enough considering the fact that Theo's earning superstar money. We need him to be a star again and unfortunately, I think that ship has sailed long time ago. I wouldn't mind him being "reliable" if he was earning $2M, but considering he's eating up $5.3M of cap room... |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 8, 2006 14:45:30 GMT -5
I wouldn't mind him being "reliable" if he was earning $2M, but considering he's eating up $5.3M of cap room... I respectfuly disagree. I think money is no object. Montreal fans want to see Patrick Roy in goal and anything below that is not acceptable. TBO was an ok goalie making not too much $$$ when he was with us but the fans and media were grilling him regularely for not standing on his head. Up to a point where the poor kid wanted to be gone ASAP... Heck even Roy was receiving servere critics when he wasn't up to his own standards. Don't be fooled by the bang-per-buck theory. Hockey is entertainment and so fans wanna see top hockey performances, not analyze a quality/price ratio like if they were buying oranges. |
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Post by Yeti on Jan 8, 2006 14:54:04 GMT -5
Huet has a save % of .908 in 58 NHL games. Good enough for me.
Tsn writes that he could never be a no 1 but at the same he's described as a late bloomer. He's 32 I think, maybe he's more mature than Theo between the ears and could handle the pressure for 2-3 years of being no 1a and Danis no 1b.
At least to finish this season and then we'll see next summer.
At the beginning of the year we all thought the Habs could finish 5-8th IF Theodore played like a top 10 goalie. He's so far from that it's not even funny. What should Gainey do? Endure mediocrity until the end of Theo's contract?
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Post by MC Habber on Jan 8, 2006 14:58:27 GMT -5
Doc, you have a point, but ultimately the fans want the team to win, no matter whether it's by relying on a great goaltender or scoring enough goals to win with an average goalie. If we had an average goalie making average goalie money and used the difference to bolster our forwards or defense we might be a better team.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 8, 2006 15:07:40 GMT -5
Doc, you have a point, but ultimately the fans want the team to win, no matter whether it's by relying on a great goaltender or scoring enough goals to win with an average goalie. If we had an average goalie making average goalie money and used the difference to bolster our forwards or defense we might be a better team. Agreed. As I've said, if we can make the team better with a trade involving Theodore, than nobody would be against it. My point was that if Theo was average at 2mil people would want him gone as bad as if he would be average at 4.5mil That being said, Huet is a backup. He can get out there and look ok when called to replace the Starter, but no serious team would think about going deep in the playoffs with Huet in nets. No way. |
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Post by PTH on Jan 8, 2006 15:17:55 GMT -5
Don't be fooled by the bang-per-buck theory. Hockey is entertainment and so fans wanna see top hockey performances, not analyze a quality/price ratio like if they were buying oranges. Don't be fooled by the bang-per-buck theory. Hockey is entertainment and so fans wanna see top hockey performances, not analyze a quality/price ratio like if they were buying oranges. I agree. Especially since we had Roy, our teams have always had goalies analyzed and over-analyzed, making it very difficult for us to go with a second-tier starter. We'd rather go for a guy like Theo who can be outstanding at times, than save ourselves the grief and going for a truly lesser goalie. IE: We'd rather have a Malakhov and pay him like a Pronger than Weinrich and pay him as such. --- That being said, if Roy was worth Nolan and Fiset, I don't see how we could ask for more than Aebischer and Tanguay (or equivalent value) for Theo, who isn't a two-time Cup winning goalie in his prime, like Roy was. He's an overpaid above-average goalie who's shown varying results in pressure situations. But hey, if we can get Lecavalier back for him, I'm game ! |
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Post by seventeen on Jan 8, 2006 15:23:20 GMT -5
Theo/Zednik/Ribeiro for Lecavalier/Graham/Andreychuck. Nah. Grahame isn't an improvement on Huet or Danis and Andreychuk is just an anchor contract. Theo for Vinnie, period. |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 8, 2006 16:41:23 GMT -5
I agree. Especially since we had Roy, our teams have always had goalies analyzed and over-analyzed, making it very difficult for us to go with a second-tier starter. We'd rather go for a guy like Theo who can be outstanding at times, than save ourselves the grief and going for a truly lesser goalie. IE: We'd rather have a Malakhov and pay him like a Pronger than Weinrich and pay him as such. --- That being said, if Roy was worth Nolan and Fiset, I don't see how we could ask for more than Aebischer and Tanguay (or equivalent value) for Theo, who isn't a two-time Cup winning goalie in his prime, like Roy was. He's an overpaid above-average goalie who's shown varying results in pressure situations. But hey, if we can get Lecavalier back for him, I'm game ! I agree that Theo's value is nowhere near what Roy was. Mind you, Nolan, was, at the the time, a young power forward with character, that was scoring at a 40gs per game pace... Pretty rare commodity... I don't like the idea of acquiring Tanguay because a) I think his style of play would make him an instant scapegoat. Finess players are often seen as "lazy" in Montreal. b) His goal totals are pretty ordinary for a guy that has played all his life with a future HOFer. You are right that Theo on his own wouldn't fetch a spectacular return wich is why I think that pairing him with Zed or Ribs (or Komi) could land us something much more interesting. |
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Post by Forum Ghost on Jan 9, 2006 0:50:26 GMT -5
I respectfuly disagree. I think money is no object. Montreal fans want to see Patrick Roy in goal and anything below that is not acceptable. Depends how highly touted the goalie is. Carey Price, for example, has very high expectations on him. But if the Habs were to acquire someone like Dwayne Roloson, I doubt that people would expect Patrick Roy type of play from him. Do fans expect Kovalev to play like Lafleur? Absolutely not. Did we expect Jeff Hackett to play like Roy? Again, no. And I disagree with you that money is no object. It maybe wasn't considered by fans in previous decades, but in this day and age, a player's contract is very important because fans expect a player to live up to his contract. The reason Theo gets so much heat is because, during contract talks, he wants to be paid like an elite goalie but during the season he plays mediocre. If he asked for mediocre and played mediocre, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't get slammed as much as he does. T-Bo's situation is unique. He had high expectations because he was stepping in Roy's skates right after the trade. And on top of that, he wasn't even a decent goalie. If he had provided us with even Jeff Hackett type of goaltending, he wouldn't have gotten ripped as much. He was awful while playing for the Habs. IMO, worse than Lalime for the Sens. You can't compare fan treatment of Hab goalies solely based on how they treated Jocelyn Thibeault. I disagree again. Fans want to see their team win. They also want to see players earning their paycheques. I was listening to the Team 990 after the Habs loss to New Jersey and one of the main points repeatedly being brought up by fans was how Theo is overpaid and not earning his paycheque. If Kovalev wasn't hovering around a PPG pace, fans would say the same thing about him. Bonk gets that criticism as well. In today's NHL I think that fans absolutely analyze a player's contribution in relation to how much he makes. I don't know about you, but hockey fans I talk to do it all the time. |
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) and he has responded with star performances. 
