The Price of success, now or in the future?

[Cranky]

You can't turn the sports pages or tune in a sports network without hearing about Price. As MVP, he has caught everybodies attention. GREAT.

Now the question is.....

Do we trade Price for a top center line Prince Vince OR do we trade him for a top future player like Eric Stall/Ryan Getzlaf OR do we keep him in the hope that he is the next Saint Patrick?

Can he fetch us the Prince? Yes. Price wont make serious amount of money for the next five years meanwhile Prince Vince is already a huge cap hit. Any GM contemplating such a move will free himself enough money to sign a top twenty center. Maybe not s superstar center, but 5 million will buy you the best from the next year FA crop.

Eric Stall/Ryan Getzlaf are already very young established players with further potential. While Price may show signs of the next great one in the Dryden/Roy mol, he has yet to face NHL competition. On the other hand, a superstar goalie is worth way more then any other tyupe of superstar player. I would take Luongo/Brodear over Thornton. I would take Roy over Lemeux.

Or off the wall, do you trade him to some place like Florida for a package of Bouwmeister/Horton for Price/Ryder/Pleks? Partially but securly filling TWO positions at once? If Markov and Souray bolt for 5-6 million offers, we will be left with the Cube/Rivet putting in 30 minute games. Is anything more frightening then that?

So...

What is your opinion? Keep? Trade? For what?





P.S. I thought that this might be a pretty interesting discussion so that is why I posted it here BUT I will move this to the Trade section in a couple of days.

[franko]

As much as I don't want to trade the (possible) future for the present, the future is now. With the cap and FA as it is, every team will be able to roll the dice every year, and thre are no guarantees that a first round pick will make an impact (see: Montreal's record).

I have no desire for Vinny and his huge cap hit. I have a great desire for a defense corps that is strong: defense can overcome lack of offense but offense without D is pond hockey hope for the best. Staal/Getzlaf begin to fill the need at C but we need D. Cote will not fill the place of the 2 we might lose. Bouwmeester/Horton would be better.

No trade without a top 4 (minimum) D in return.

[seventeen]

I just finished watching the WJC finals and IMO, the reports I heard yesterday were optimistic. I thought Price was nervous for the first half of the game. He really wasn't tested much. He played better after making the good shorthanded save late in the 2nd and was much more confident after that. He did not make a difference when he played in the final game of the U-18 tournament a couple of years ago (I believe the US beat us, but it might have been someone else) and the final this year was not his best game. Also, letting in 4 of 7 shots in the shootout didn't thrill me. There were a few games for Team Canada where he played very well, but I'm not convinced he really raises his game at clutch time. Tournament MVP? I dunno. I thought Toews and any of 4 d-men could have been Canada's best players. In any case, his trade value is the highest its been since we drafted him and we are deep in the goaltending dept. Arguably, Halak will be as good as Price can be and doesn't have near the press clippings or potential value. Let's use Price in a trade for a defenseman or center.

[Anardil1]

While I agree that his trade value is on the rise, I doubt that it is significant enough to interest rival GMs to give up what we're looking for. He would be just 1 part of an expensive package (IMO start with Higgins and/or Komisarek + Price) just to keep the rival GMs from hanging up. Let's remember that Price has yet to prove anything above the junior level. Also, prior WJC best goalies include Al Montoya, Jimmy Waite, and Manny Legace. Will Price be added to this "Illustrious" list, or will he be closer to Martin Brodeur or Patrick Roy? (Last 2 never represented Canada at the WJC)

[oldhabsfan]

I have doubts about how much the GMs of other teams would be willing to give up for a very promising junior goalie who is a few years from the NHL.

I also think we are not very far from a Cup winning team, but I am not willing to give up much to pull ahead on the roster.

How far might we have gone last year if we had had a little luck and Koivu had not been injured? We had the eventual champions
on the ropes.

If we keep the farm we have, along with the drafting team, we will likely be in contention for quite a few years. We may lose some players to free agency, but we will have more proven young players to trade. There will always be the chance that we
rather than some other team will get lucky and go all the way.

If we give away too much this year and don't make it (which is always possible given how much part luck plays in winning the Cup) we may be out of serious contention for several years after.

In the long run as the number of free agents goes up, I expect their price, and the attractiveness of leaving one's old team, will go down severely. Demand (payroll) constant, supply up, price down.

From management's point of view, I think they don't want so much to have a high probability to win the Cup as always to be in serious contention. If we are in serious contention long enough eventually we will win. I think this is also in the long-term interest of the fans. Do we ever want to go through another dozen years out of contention, missing the playoffs or being on tenterhooks to see if we will make it to the playoffs? Not me.

The future looks good to me as I imagine Price and Halak in goal;
O'Byrne, Emelin, Valentenko and Fischer on defence with maybe Gleed and Korpikari backing them up; Lapierre, the two Kostitsyns, Grabovski, D'Agostini and Maxwell up front. Sure, some of them won't make it but likely there will be some more Ryders in our future (Ferland?) to balance things out.

[Cranky]

oldhabsfan said:

the Cup)

Demand (payroll) constant, supply up, price down.

I have been thinking about that and I am not sure how it is going to work out that way. The Russians teams are starting to pay some serious, tax free money and their cost of living is substantially cheaper. Why would a mid level player want to play in the NHL for two million when he can play in his country for half as much untaxed? Add the cost of living and he will be just as well off playing for $600,000 for the Dymano.

The ones that will suffer the most will be the jouurneyman of the NHL. Who exactly needs Begin for a million five if a kid can do the same job for a third as much? On the other hand, owners wil lALWAYS be greedy for acup and they will overpay the "stars".

[Cranky]

anardil1 said:

While I agree that his trade value is on the rise, I doubt that it is significant enough to interest rival GMs to give up what we're looking for. He would be just 1 part of an expensive package (IMO start with Higgins and/or Komisarek + Price) just to keep the rival GMs from hanging up. Let's remember that Price has yet to prove anything above the junior level. Also, prior WJC best goalies include Al Montoya, Jimmy Waite, and Manny Legace. Will Price be added to this "Illustrious" list, or will he be closer to Martin Brodeur or Patrick Roy? (Last 2 never represented Canada at the WJC)

It's rare for teams to give up on their "young stars" but it has been done before. Lindros comes to mind. At this point, if Price was on the market, he may fetch a Carter or Umberger from someone like the Flyers. The gave a question mark in goaltending and a potential star/superstar goaltender makes sense. Where are the Mad Mikes when you need them?

I would have no problem to trade him for the right price. Actrually, it goes for any player other then Koivu. Komi for Carter/Getzlaf/Stall? As much as I would hate it, we have no real potential stars at center. In the heriarchy of value, a goaltender over everyone, a center over a defenseman and a defenseman over a winger.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

Huet is 31.
Abeisher is tradeable for some help.
Hamilton has two good goaltenders.
Price was expensive, a #5 draft pick who has shown he can stop pucks at the Jr. level and may be outstanding down the line, maybe.
Big risk, big reward.
Some good goaltenders just pop up without warning like Vokun. I'd keep Price unless we are offered a franchise kid.

[clear observer]

habsaddict said:

Now the question is.....Do we trade Price for a top center line Prince Vince

heh heh heh.....Vincent's Price.......heh heh heh


sorry,
CO

[Doc Holliday]

hmmm... Extremely tough question. Price is the first projected All-Star/High profile franchise player that we've drafted since I don't know when AND he's develloping as planned... This guy may very well be the next Luongo. He has the size, the calm demeanor, the technique and the character. He already showed he can take pressure and carry a team. Many said that he was the best goalie in our summer camp and if he wasn't on such a slow devellopment paced organization he'd be considered really near the NHL. This kind of prospect does not need the mendatory AHL time that the HABS will put in him no matter what and any team not named Montreal Canadiens could bring him in the NHL as early as next year to split duty with a quality veteran and have their goalie coach work on him on a daily basis.

For this guy, I would only consider a trade for a young star franchise forward that would raise the bar and upgrade the quality of the show. Vinny comes to mind for sure but cap wise we'd have to dump a lot of salary for it to happen. Less row boats for 1 more war ship, I'd be all for it.

I definitely wouldn't go for the Horton, Getzlaf, Carter type tough, while these guys are good, they're not superstar level and as I said, I wouldn't trade Price for anything else than franchise level forward.

[chief6]

docholliday said:

This kind of prospect does not need the mendatory AHL time that the HABS will put in him no matter what and any team not named Montreal Canadiens could bring him in the NHL as early as next year to split duty with a quality veteran and have their goalie coach work on him on a daily basis.

The history of 19- and 20-year old goalies making the jump to the NHL is not exactly a fairy tale. The demands on a starting goalie throughout the season are too much for most young guys to handle.

And sure, working with the NHL club's goalie coach, and backing up and learning from the current starter sounds like a great idea, but there's no replacement for playing time. Goalies need to learn the parts of the job that go beyond "get my body on front of the puck," and on-the-fly, at 20 years old, in the NHL, in front of the league's least-forgiving media is not the way to do it.

To the point of the thread: Unless a team blows Montreal away with an offer, they're better off to hold onto Price. Keeping assets until the right deal comes is better than unloading assets just because you have them. Posters on this board are constantly lamenting Ron Hainsey and Francois Beauchemin's departures. Mismanagement of assets at it's finest.

[PTH]

docholliday said:

hmmm... Extremely tough question. Price is the first projected All-Star/High profile franchise player that we've drafted since I don't know when AND he's develloping as planned... This guy may very well be the next Luongo. He has the size, the calm demeanor, the technique and the character. He already showed he can take pressure and carry a team. Many said that he was the best goalie in our summer camp and if he wasn't on such a slow devellopment paced organization he'd be considered really near the NHL. This kind of prospect does not need the mendatory AHL time that the HABS will put in him no matter what and any team not named Montreal Canadiens could bring him in the NHL as early as next year to split duty with a quality veteran and have their goalie coach work on him on a daily basis.

For this guy, I would only consider a trade for a young star franchise forward that would raise the bar and upgrade the quality of the show. Vinny comes to mind for sure but cap wise we'd have to dump a lot of salary for it to happen. Less row boats for 1 more war ship, I'd be all for it.

I definitely wouldn't go for the Horton, Getzlaf, Carter type tough, while these guys are good, they're not superstar level and as I said, I wouldn't trade Price for anything else than franchise level forward.

I agree - and given that no one will want to give up that much for Price, I think we're essentially saying that we don't want to trade him.

Still, something like Komi + Price for Richards or Lecavalier would be hard to say no to - though cap issues might make that moot.

But since the Theo trade we've been thin in net - Danis, Halak and Price are still far off (or just not that good), and Huet and Aeb could be gone by the end of next season, so trading our one high-profile bluechipper would be a gutsy move (gutsy = stupid if it doesn't work out...)

[Toronthab]

admin said:

habsaddict said:

Now the question is.....Do we trade Price for a top center line Prince Vince

heh heh heh.....Vincent's Price.......heh heh heh


sorry,
CO

Heh heh.

If you apologize for that cutie, then I'll have to spend a lot more time apologizing, given my calibre of humor.

[BadCompany]

I'm not all that convinced Price's value is that high, to be honest with you. But then, I've never thought goalies have all that much value on the trade market. Tuuka Rask, for example, drafted in the same year as Price, considered by many to have just as much upside as Price (several draft organizations had him ahead of Price), won the best goalie award at last year's World Juniors (playing behind a defense that was vastly inferior to Price's this year), and yet he was traded for Andrew Raycroft, a decent, but hardly stellar goalie. Perhaps the Leafs goofed big time in making that trade (I personally think they did), but that could be a good indicator of what Price's value is.

I doubt very much you'd be able to get a superstar like Staal for him alone (or, really, for anything), and even guys like Carter and Getzlaf are probably out of reach. It's too easy (or at least perceptively so) to fill a goaltending need, and not so easy to fill a big, talented, center need.

[blny]

I don't think trading Price is smart at this point. I know we've all seen goalies with stellar junior careers have trouble translating that into professional success, but I don't see Jimmy Waite, Trevor Kidd, Stephane Fiset, or Maxim Ouellet when I look at Price.

Carey Price had to do a lot just to get an invite back this year. After a disappointing camp last year he don't go back to junior and sulk. He came in this season focused. He earned the invite back, and he took the opportunity and ran with it.

His play, and his actions off the ice, indicate a much matured athlete in the last year. It's never certain where a player's ceiling is in terms of development, but I think he's got blue chip written all over him.

Look at our goaltending depth right now. Huet, Aebischer, Danis, Halak, Heino-Lindberg, Price. Huet is 31. It's not out of the realm of possibility that he could play another 6 years, but it's rare. It would be even more rare for it to be at the level he's shown the last year. Aebischer won't be our backup for another season. Danis, by many accounts, seems to have hit his ceiling. Halak has potential to improve further. Price is the future of our goaltending at the moment. There certainly isn't anyone in the system with as much potential.

The only way Price should be moved is in a homerun trade. It would have to be something that lands us a premiere talent that can help now and in the future. It's easy to point at the Rask for Raycroft deal. That's JFJ's problem IMO. MLSE would have been better off to sell off assets and rebuild, but instead chose to remain mediocre in a league built for mediocrity. Rask has a great future. Perhaps they felt with Pogge they could afford to move Rask. Still, just because Toronto makes that move doesn't mean we have to.

Price brings something else we can't take to lightly. At 19 years of age, he's already better at playing the puck and communicating with defencemen than anyone else in our system. I don't say that lightly. I mean it. If you watched the WJC you saw a guy that quickly learned to effectively communicate with players he's never played with. He was aggressive moving the puck, and made smart decisions. I can think of only one mistake playing the puck, and it happened in the goal medal game. In the end it didn't cost us. Even with the changes in rules, having a goalie that can play the puck is an asset.

So, keep Price. Let him grow. I don't think it will be long before we see him in Montreal. My prediction would be by the 2010 games in Vancouver he'll at least be our backup.

[Boston_Habs]

I floated this one before but I'd do this deal today.

Samsonov - $3.5M
Niinimaa - $2.5M
Komisarek - $1.0
Plekanec - $0.5M
Price - $0
Total - $7.5M

Lecavalier - $7.2M

Maybe you can get away with not including Price and ideally I would want to get another dman back in the deal if nothing else for depth purposes but this is a fair trade for both teams. We get the franchise centre we need, Tampa gets some serious young building blocks in Komi, Price, and Pleks plus and is not on the hook long term for Sammy and Niinimma's contracts (they get another year of Sammy - a good thing IMO - and Niinimaa is a UFA at the end of the year).

This deal makes more sense if Tampa fades from the playoff picture and is more inclined to deal one of the Big 3. From our perspective the only painful give-up is Komisarek but his ceiling may be as a very good 3/4 dman but not a top 2 guy. Or he could turn into Scott Stevens. I agree with BC that as good as Price is or may be, the goalie position is one we can address later and like I said we may be able to do this trade without him and give up a draft pick or another prospect instead.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

pth said:

Still, something like Komi + Price for Richards or Lecavalier would be hard to say no to - though cap issues might make that moot.

Apparently that was the deal Gainey offered TB at one point last year. Any deal involving Lecavalier was going to command Komisarek on Montreal's part. If I remember right, the scoop was Komisarek, Price + for Lecavalier.

Interestingly enough, Gainey also enquired about Thornton as well in a deal that would have involved Komisarek too.

Cheers.

[blny]

bostonhabs said:

I floated this one before but I'd do this deal today.

Samsonov - $3.5M
Niinimaa - $2.5M
Komisarek - $1.0
Plekanec - $0.5M
Price - $0
Total - $7.5M

Lecavalier - $7.2M

Maybe you can get away with not including Price and ideally I would want to get another dman back in the deal if nothing else for depth purposes but this is a fair trade for both teams. We get the franchise centre we need, Tampa gets some serious young building blocks in Komi, Price, and Pleks plus and is not on the hook long term for Sammy and Niinimma's contracts (they get another year of Sammy - a good thing IMO - and Niinimaa is a UFA at the end of the year).

This deal makes more sense if Tampa fades from the playoff picture and is more inclined to deal one of the Big 3. From our perspective the only painful give-up is Komisarek but his ceiling may be as a very good 3/4 dman but not a top 2 guy. Or he could turn into Scott Stevens. I agree with BC that as good as Price is or may be, the goalie position is one we can address later and like I said we may be able to do this trade without him and give up a draft pick or another prospect instead.

I really doubt Tampa does that deal. I hate to lose Komisarek, mainly because we're primed to lose others, but we really don't have anyone as effective at the physical part of the game as he is. In the end, Tampa gets Sammy, Pleks, Komi, and maybe Price. Janne is merely a throw in. Without Price and Janne, Komi has the greatest value IMO. Like here, he's instantly in their first pairing.

Truth be told, I've never been sold on Lecavalier. I've always preferred Brad Richards of the two. Maybe that's why I wouldn't do the deal.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Don't know if I'd do any deal involving Price. The first thing championship teams have is outstanding goaltending. Then they have outstanding defence.

Price's potential cannot be underestimated. If it were me I'd hang onto the guy unless an unbelievable opportunity presents itself. Looking at the our goaltending prospects in the system, we can afford to wait a bit.

Cheers.

[Skilly]

bostonhabs said:

I floated this one before but I'd do this deal today.

Samsonov - $3.5M
Niinimaa - $2.5M
Komisarek - $1.0
Plekanec - $0.5M
Price - $0
Total - $7.5M

Lecavalier - $7.2M

Maybe you can get away with not including Price and ideally I would want to get another dman back in the deal if nothing else for depth purposes but this is a fair trade for both teams. We get the franchise centre we need, Tampa gets some serious young building blocks in Komi, Price, and Pleks plus and is not on the hook long term for Sammy and Niinimma's contracts (they get another year of Sammy - a good thing IMO - and Niinimaa is a UFA at the end of the year).

This deal makes more sense if Tampa fades from the playoff picture and is more inclined to deal one of the Big 3. From our perspective the only painful give-up is Komisarek but his ceiling may be as a very good 3/4 dman but not a top 2 guy. Or he could turn into Scott Stevens. I agree with BC that as good as Price is or may be, the goalie position is one we can address later and like I said we may be able to do this trade without him and give up a draft pick or another prospect instead.

Lecavalier's salary is 7.167 million or 7.2 million as you said ... but his cap-hit is only 6.875 million.

And Tampa is right up to the edge in salary cap as it is now ... I believe they have somewhere in the vacinity of $500,000k available.

Montreal's package would be Komi (0.947), Niinimaa (2.47), Samsonov (3.525) and PLeky (0.45) .... which is 7.392 million.

That's a difference of $517,000 .... and with half the salaries already paid is doable leaving about $250,000 under the cap, but it makes no sense for a team to try and shed a player to make cap room and take on more salary. It is easy to say the will be rid of Niinimaa, but they will have Komi as a RFA who will command in the 2 million range, and Pleky is also a RFA who will be looking at a raise. There goes your Niinimaa savings ...

IMO, the deal makes no sense from a cap point of view.

EDIT: also missing from this is the players that will have to replace the players we lost. We'd have lost 2 defensemen and 2 forwards from our regular line-up ... and only getting one forward back. So we'd have to add Lapierre (for argument's sake) and that costs us $225,000. (the money we saved in the deal presumably) .... but leaves us very little wiggle room for injuries, sickness, etc.

[franko]

bostonhabs said:

I floated this one before but I'd do this deal today.

Samsonov - $3.5M
Niinimaa - $2.5M
Komisarek - $1.0
Plekanec - $0.5M
Price - $0
Total - $7.5M

Lecavalier - $7.2M

I don't understand why TBay would take Sammy and Niinimaa off our hands, even if they get another year of Sammy and Niinimaa is a UFA at the end of the year. They still get stuck with one underacheiver and one on-his-last-legser. As a favour for Bob? I think not.

[Boston_Habs]

In a capped world, expiring contracts and/or short money contracts have real value. It happens in the NBA all the time - teams actually LIKE having overpaid vets on their last year of a contract since it allows them to include them in trades to other teams and allows the acquiring team to unload long term money in exchange for financial flexibility.

In that sense acquiring $2.5MM of Niinimaa's expiring contract gives them $2.5MM next season to pay UFA's or give increases to existing players. It also allows them to either keep Samsonov and his $3.5MM or trade it to another team looking to get out from under a long term deal. This assumes of course that they want to deal Vinny's long term deal and use the money to spread around to other players and add more young talent.

[Doc Holliday]

bostonhabs said:

I floated this one before but I'd do this deal today.

Samsonov - $3.5M
Niinimaa - $2.5M
Komisarek - $1.0
Plekanec - $0.5M
Price - $0
Total - $7.5M

Lecavalier - $7.2M

Maybe you can get away with not including Price and ideally I would want to get another dman back in the deal if nothing else for depth purposes but this is a fair trade for both teams. We get the franchise centre we need, Tampa gets some serious young building blocks in Komi, Price, and Pleks plus and is not on the hook long term for Sammy and Niinimma's contracts (they get another year of Sammy - a good thing IMO - and Niinimaa is a UFA at the end of the year).

This deal makes more sense if Tampa fades from the playoff picture and is more inclined to deal one of the Big 3. From our perspective the only painful give-up is Komisarek but his ceiling may be as a very good 3/4 dman but not a top 2 guy. Or he could turn into Scott Stevens. I agree with BC that as good as Price is or may be, the goalie position is one we can address later and like I said we may be able to do this trade without him and give up a draft pick or another prospect instead.

It's too much IMO.

You give them a franchise goalie AND a young dmen that has all the look and feel of a defense general. I like Vinny and all but that deal would hurt you for years IMO.

Komi would be off the table if we're talking Price and vice versa.

[Boston_Habs]

I would tend to agree if the deal includes both Komi and Price. I think you could get away with offering another prospect or pick in place of Price. As far as Komi is concerned I would swallow hard on that one but I just don't know if he's going to be elite - he's not an offensive guy so his impact on the PP is minimal and although he's improving I don't know if he will be a superior skating/puck moving type player. He brings size, potential leadership, and toughness which are great attributes, but you gotta give to get. Tough call but I think it's clear that any deal for an elite centre will include Komisarek.