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Post by Doc Holliday on Nov 17, 2002 20:12:55 GMT -5
Are Savard and Therrien sharing a brain?
I mean, the GM has to address the players THREE TIMES in not even a season and a half because they all seem to quit on MT... Almost every vets on the team took a run at the coach at one point or an other... It is crystal clear for everybody that MT has Zero credibility and leadership on that team. Zero. Is our GM connected in some cosmic manner to this coach to be so patient with him? Is Savard so stubborn that he will sink with his coach rather then admit it was a bad choice?
or...
...does Savard simply likes a coach in whose business he can meddle without getting any backlash, something he gets with MT.
BTW, Dany Dube echoed what we all think as he said this team is any coach's nightmare: too many similar veteran players to do the same job... Never a win/win situation, you always have the same flaws and you have to cycle a bunch of guys that won't correct them. Savard must conclude a major transaction and fast...
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 17, 2002 20:14:49 GMT -5
Good points.
I think your 2nd comment is bang on. AS can do whatever he wants with MT at the helm.
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Post by Viper on Nov 17, 2002 20:24:44 GMT -5
Good points. I think your 2nd comment is bang on. AS can do whatever he wants with MT at the helm. except ice a half decent team.
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Post by UberCranky on Nov 17, 2002 20:34:25 GMT -5
Are Savard and Therrien sharing a brain? I mean, the GM has to address the players THREE TIMES in not even a season and a half because they all seem to quit on MT... Almost every vets on the team took a run at the coach at one point or an other... It is crystal clear for everybody that MT has Zero credibility and leadership on that team. Zero. Is our GM connected in some cosmic manner to this coach to be so patient with him? Is Savard so stubborn that he will sink with his coach rather then admit it was a bad choice? or... ...does Savard simply likes a coach in whose business he can meddle without getting any backlash, something he gets with MT. BTW, Dany Dube echoed what we all think as he said this team is any coach's nightmare: too many similar veteran players to do the same job... Never a win/win situation, you always have the same flaws and you have to cycle a bunch of guys that won't correct them. Savard must conclude a major transaction and fast... Obviously you missed the post where I revealed the dirty pictures Therrien has on Savard…. Has Therrien lost the room? Is it THAT obvious? Sheesh. Therrein has lost this team from last X-mas or so and they only play for one another. One does not have to look further then what type of inspiration Koivu supplied to the team when he came back. This version of the Hab’s team can NOT win unless they are putting out 110%. Period. They neither have the horses or the coaching to do anything less then that. Savard is not a fool and I believe he is buying time until he has to do something. Nothing else makes sense. It’s not like Therrein is going to get smarter. There could also be the “comfort” factor involved and often, senior managers will keep their underling fearing the unknown. In MY opinion that is a mistake. I would rather see him do what he needs NOW rather then later. The management machinations that are going on in this team will have us posting to the 23rd century trying to figure them out.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 17, 2002 21:06:29 GMT -5
Plus, there is no media pressure on Savard to can MT. I swear MT has this shell around him that makes him ineligible for any bashing from the media...
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Post by seventeen on Nov 17, 2002 22:33:25 GMT -5
Savard is not a fool and I believe he is buying time until he has to do something. Nothing else makes sense. It’s not like Therrein is going to get smarter. There could also be the “comfort” factor involved and often, senior managers will keep their underling fearing the unknown. In MY opinion that is a mistake. I would rather see him do what he needs NOW rather then later. The management machinations that are going on in this team will have us posting to the 23rd century trying to figure them out. Of course, there is another possibility posed by your statement above. Perhaps Savard is a fool. Looking back on his record, he's pulled off one good trade (with Washington). Other than that, he's either signed some obscure free agents, given up a lot of later round draft choices, stocked the team up with little guys, hired and kept on a coach we all seem to agree should be sent to Albequerque and generally messed up the chemistry on the team. There is remarkably little to be pleased about. His contracts have been exercises in how not to deal with players. Boy, when you sum it up like that, things seem pretty clear. Unless someone sees something I don't, I think we're doubly blessed.
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Post by PTH on Nov 17, 2002 23:48:28 GMT -5
I vote for option #2, and have basically been saying as much for quite a while - ie, even well before the playoffs last year I think.
MT is highly expendable and he knows it, so when his boss says.... "hey, try Bulis with Juneau and Dackell" or "play Traverse some more, he'll come around" - MT listens.
AS is an assistant coach at heart, and still likes to tinker, IMO. MT was smart enough last year when things went well to give credit to the whole "hockey operations group" which includes AS, and they as a group make lineup decisions...... in other words, MT never took all the credit when things were going OK, now he can't take all the blame, either.
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Post by montreal on Nov 18, 2002 1:39:16 GMT -5
Of course, there is another possibility posed by your statement above. Perhaps Savard is a fool. Looking back on his record, he's pulled off one good trade (with Washington). Other than that, he's either signed some obscure free agents, given up a lot of later round draft choices, stocked the team up with little guys, hired and kept on a coach we all seem to agree should be sent to Albequerque and generally messed up the chemistry on the team. There is remarkably little to be pleased about. His contracts have been exercises in how not to deal with players. Boy, when you sum it up like that, things seem pretty clear. Unless someone sees something I don't, I think we're doubly blessed. Yea go with that one. Savard is a fool, good one. 1. Trades- Zholtok for Kilger, I liked that one, that year, Theodore had more goals then Zholtok (1). Odjick for Stock, baised here, I hate Stock and if not for the stupid pims by Gino this one would be a no brainer, but Odjick did have a good game in the playoffs, and overall I like this trade. Traverse for Wienrich. I don't have a problem with the trade as much as I did with Savard resigning him, but Traverse did have a decent year in Ottawa, so I guess he saw something I didn't, and Traverse has been ok at times, not the best trade, but for a rookie GM, not the worst either. Zednik Bulis Perezhogin for Liden Zubrus Patesch and some money. I would have to say his best move. I am greatly looking forward to see what Perezhogin can do (I have talked with some guys in Russia that have a lot of good things to say about him). Audette VanAllen for Rosey and Benny. Well I really liked the move, although I hated seeing Brunet go, but it was worth it to rid us of Rosey who I hated towards the end (he was playing like crap). VanAllen, I didn't care much for either way, not a big deal. But Audette was looking very good when we first got him and in the playoffs, leading in playoff goals/points. Not the best trade, but it helped the team, and got rid of Rosey, so it got my thumbs up. Getting Whitehall from NYR, waste of time. Berezin for Savage/3rd '02. I liked the ideal of Berezin with Perreault, and ridding ourselfs of Mr. November, but I hate losing a high pick. Savage sucks and Berezin got our 10,000 goal (I have that on tape against SJ) Not a great trade but no Savage meant a thumbs up from me. Berezin for a 4th '04. Well Berezin is off to a good start while Savage is in the doghouse. Not much difference between Berezin/Chow, lateral move I'll wait to see what the pick gets us. Forgot some. Francis Balanger from Philly was a waste of time. Fiset, from LA not a bad move, made sense. Dackell for an 8th, very good ideal. The Sens coach was saying that there team still misses what Dackell brings to the team. Joe Juneau for "future considerations" Great move, I thought he was nuts getting JJ, but Juneau has been a major part of the team last season and this. Blouin for a 7th, well Blouin has about 0 skill with the puck, but I don't think we have lost a game with him in the lineup, not a bad move. Lindsay off waivers, ok not a trade, but worth the money, not a bad ideal at all. Czerkawski for Asham/5th. Tough one. I understand the ideal, but I have come to really hate Chow. I guess we must have a Rosey/Savage/Berezin/Chow player on our team so I can yell at them for floating. A one time 35 goal score (how did he ever score 35?) for a 4th liner and a 5th, not a bad gamble at all. Chris Dyment for a 5th '03, Don't want to open a can of worms on this one, so I'll leave it at give this one time, to see what both do. Getting Gratton from the Flames, he's the captain of the Bulldogs, but I'm still pissed at him from the playoffs last year. so boo on that one. Eric Landry, I can't remember what the deal was on him, so I wont say, but he did lead Quebec in scoring last season (75pts).
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Post by Vichab on Nov 18, 2002 2:01:23 GMT -5
i'm no big MT fan and would love to see a new coach , even AV back. but let's remeber that the Boys are 2 games over 500 after having a lot of players including Jose not play very well. Don't get me wrong - i don't say that is because of MT that we are ahead of most teams in the conference in fact it is in spite of MT. But that would mean that AS must have put a pretty good team together for a nitwit like MT to have them over 500.
As does not have to make a coaching move yet. I think it is more imperative that he get us the big banging forward who has some sense for the net. A rugged dman with some mobility would be nice as well.
There is no doubt that AS can tell MT to do what ever AS wants and the lapdog will respond. But As could get alot of other coaches who would do the same. what i would like is some new blood with some new ideas for AS to consider. Losing Carbo really hurt. given the contract AS gave MT, AS has to keep MT as long as possible otherwise it reflects badly on AS and even George will want to know why we are firing a guy we just gave a new deal. As long as the Boys are near 500 MT ain't going anywhere which is a shame as we will never know what these guys are capable of.
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Post by montreal on Nov 18, 2002 2:04:42 GMT -5
Of course, there is another possibility posed by your statement above. Perhaps Savard is a fool. Looking back on his record, he's pulled off one good trade (with Washington). Other than that, he's either signed some obscure free agents, given up a lot of later round draft choices, stocked the team up with little guys, hired and kept on a coach we all seem to agree should be sent to Albequerque and generally messed up the chemistry on the team. There is remarkably little to be pleased about. His contracts have been exercises in how not to deal with players. Boy, when you sum it up like that, things seem pretty clear. Unless someone sees something I don't, I think we're doubly blessed. Part II. The Sigings. Gilmor, well I didn't like it at first, but what a year he had last season. Led the team in assits, and playoffs points. This year, can't seem to get the motor going, but I overall a good signing, IMO. Perreault, tough one. I hate him when he's in our zone, and I cheer when he is hitting those top corners. Led the team in almost every offence catagory last year, and is producing this year. With the loss of Koivu, getting Gilmor/Perreault makes a lot of sense. Eric Fichaud, anyone that saw this one coming, I tip my hat to you. He pulled this one from out of nowhere. So far, a great move, Fichaud hasn't lost a game yet! 1.96 gaa .930 save % and only 27 or so. Randy McKay, man is he slow, but he does have a ton of experience, and knows what it takes to win, a good signing, IMO. Part III. The draft picks no more. Off the top of my head. We lost our 5th '03 for Chow, boo. (but we had 2 5th's '03) We gave up our 7th for Blouin '03, boo but a small one. An 8th '01 for Dacks. A 3rd for Berezin '02 but got a 4th '04, shrugs on that one. A 8th '02 to move up one in '02 draft for Higgins, no biggie. He gave up our 4th and 5th '02 for a 4th to move up a few spots (Lambert), why??? Thats all I can think of. So thats. an 8th '01, a 3rd '02, a 5th '02, 8th '02, 5th '03, 7th '03. and he added a 5th '03 and a 4th '04 plus Dackell, Chow, Blouin, Higgins, Lambert.
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Post by seventeen on Nov 18, 2002 2:06:32 GMT -5
You've summed up my argument pretty well, Montreal. I agree wholeheartedly that the Linden/Zednik deal was a good one, but the rest of your post pretty well backs me up. As far as Zholtok goes, better check this year's stats. That deal looked good in it's first 12 weeks or so, but seems pretty well a wash to me now. Or could it be that Kilger is being handled poorly? Look, I was yanking a bunch of chains with my last post, but you have to agree that if you look at Savard's performance from a certain angle, it can look pretty bad, except for one bright spot. That was my point.
If AS wants to play coach, he should get his hands dirty, don't do it through a puppet. Let's see if he can get more mileage out of that one-dimensional team than MT can. Perhaps a little, cause MT really isn't good at systems and getting players to buy into one. Between the two of them, they're running a team that would miss the playoffs with ease if their goaltending wasn't as great as it is. In Andre's shoes, I'd retire MT, and let Guy Charron have the team for a while. In the meantime, wait until someone good is available. MT's had the same time frame Tremblay had and is doing just as well (or badly). Mario only lasted 2 years and even Reggie had enough sense and guts to encourage him to leave.
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Post by montreal on Nov 18, 2002 2:20:26 GMT -5
Of course, there is another possibility posed by your statement above. Perhaps Savard is a fool. Looking back on his record, he's pulled off one good trade (with Washington). Other than that, he's either signed some obscure free agents, given up a lot of later round draft choices, stocked the team up with little guys, hired and kept on a coach we all seem to agree should be sent to Albequerque and generally messed up the chemistry on the team. There is remarkably little to be pleased about. His contracts have been exercises in how not to deal with players. Boy, when you sum it up like that, things seem pretty clear. Unless someone sees something I don't, I think we're doubly blessed. Part IV. Small players, Kilger, Odjick, Balanger, McKay, Blouin, Lindsay (not that big but grittys gota count for something), Quintal, Traverse (well he sure is tall) and Bulis, but Zednik isn't so small, not big but not small either. Little guys, Gilmor, Perreault, Chow, Gratton, Landry, Audette, Dackell. Looks like he's added balance. Plus he drafted, big guys, Archer, Komisarek, Deveaux, Ferland, Lambert, Linhart, in 2 drafts. Part V. Coach MT. Yes he is not liked, but he has never been fired as a coach before. He has a memorial cup and a calder cup. He has gotten into the 2nd round, and he is over .500. Not great, don't get me wrong, but not the worst coach ever. Now Green on the other hand, I'm not so sure of, and wouldn't mind seeing him replaced. Rollie the goalie, good move their keeping him on board. Charron, I like his experience, but his record any that great. (Plus he's in charge of the PK, ouch!) too early for me to say. Tevor Timmins, I have heard a lot of great things about him, but its too early for me to say. I do find it strange that most of the scouts are still around from the Houle days, unless I am mistaken on that one. Jodin, I can't say either, its too early but our PP is 18th right now, so I wont say anything bad yet. I am pleased about our prospects for sure, much better then just Ribs, Chewy and Ward. Part VI. Players contracts. Oh boy, this is a tough one. Brezzy, I like due to the later years, as 4M right now is a high, but with salaries increasing in years 3 and 4 it should be a good deal. Rivet. Not his best one their, but UFA's get dollar dollar bills for sure. I think its an average of 2.7M, on the high side, but it doesn't start till next year, so I'll wait and see if he improves. I thought last years numbers were a big of a fluke. Theodore. BOOOO I hated this deal, but when your goalie gets the MVP and Vezina its time to pay up. Way to much money, as Theo held us up at gun point. Now he's getting the big bucks, he better start playing like the superstar he's getting paid to be. How do you go from 1.65M to 5.3M in one year. I know MVP/Vezina, but still thats a lot of dough for one great season. Dackell, I forget, I think its 1.6M ? can't say since I'm too lazy to look it up. But I must say I did like the one year deals for the RFA's Garon, Ribeiro, Gilmor, Fichaud, etc... But O'dette 2 years? why even sign him. Traverse is in year 2 getting 800k, no biggie. Zednik worried me over the summer, but it looks like he is going to break out, YEA. Brain's tried can't think of any more reason, why I like Savard. Oh yea the prospects, wait I already said that, well I count them twice cause he did a great job, Way To Go Savard!
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Post by UberCranky on Nov 18, 2002 8:19:03 GMT -5
BC, did you ever think ANYONE could write even longer posts then us? Sheesh..
Montreal, write your posts in word and then cut and past them so they appear as one.
By the way, Spiro pay's by the word so if you want to make as much money as us you need to negotiate with him. Don't ask me the secret rate because I will easily reveal it.
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Post by BadCompany on Nov 18, 2002 12:46:46 GMT -5
BC, did you ever think ANYONE could write even longer posts then us? Sheesh.. Bah. I write posts like that before breakfast.
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Post by DougalMaCleod on Nov 18, 2002 15:27:15 GMT -5
Well I think montreal said it best when he pointed a finger in Green's direction. How can this team consistently get shelled and nobody question their Defensive coach? It's scary. We NEED a system. Please fire Green and hire....BC. he does more by 06:00 am than Green does all day! Or was that he post more....
Andre (alias Saint) Savard. I was slow to give him much credit, however now that the Saint is in trouble I'd have to say I'm satisfied with his work. It's not easy trading our garbage for something good and many of his trades and signings were a result of UFAism. He got something for what he would have lost and got nothing in return, if you could call Traverse something. (I HATE THIS GUY!). We do have tradable assets, however, we should move some of our vets before they are no longer tradable, i.e Audette, Gilmour if someone will take him. Juneau, although he's played well for us...Breezby, Quintal...you get the picture, before they slow down completely and we get nothing. Of course, these are trade deadline moves...
Agree on the MT front. I wonder how many decisions are his, i.e. bench this guy and that guy. I hope their not coming from above. I have a hard time understanding many of the decisions which are being made. I , like many other's have felt there must be a trade pending, why else would he do this or that, no trades have come, did they fall through? Was he instructed to showcase certain players, sit other's make smurf lines? misuse players? who knows? If these things are his doing alone, then buy him a burrito factory and let him go.
I think many of us (management and players included) expected we would be a high scoring team this year and we are forced to reassess our team. We are still, IMO not using our players well, and i cannot understand what criteria Terrien uses to asses players performances. However, if we forget about being an "offensive" team (hahaha no pun intended) and play a strong / stronger defensive / positioning game we should do just fine. It is of course, the coaches responsibility to have his players ... well positioned and defense aware.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 18, 2002 16:03:47 GMT -5
Get Big Bird to replace Green.
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Post by montreal on Nov 18, 2002 16:31:15 GMT -5
BC, did you ever think ANYONE could write even longer posts then us? Sheesh.. Montreal, write your posts in word and then cut and past them so they appear as one. By the way, Spiro pay's by the word so if you want to make as much money as us you need to negotiate with him. Don't ask me the secret rate because I will easily reveal it. That sounds complicated. Maybe I just write shorter posts. Never did the whole cut and paste thing. I don't know how to post a link either. And I have a college degree, go figure.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 18, 2002 16:44:28 GMT -5
post a link?
just copt and paste it and it will appear...
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Post by HFTO on Nov 18, 2002 17:50:19 GMT -5
Doc, Michel the puppet maybe smarter than we think otherwise ther is no way in HELL he survives this long. By letting AS in the dressing room on a regular basis he is able to plod along. The time for a change in both personal and the coach is long overdue,AS's honeymoon is over as far as I'm concerned.He has painted himself into this corner he'll have to paint himself out.If he's scared he may bungle the next stage in this teams development then he's not the right guy.I believe Savard is scared to miss the playoffs but if it is going to put os on the proper course I think he should be willing to pay the price. With the current team he still will be life and death to make the playoffs and to me if he crashes and burns with this lot he maybe at greater risk. HFTO
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Post by seventeen on Nov 18, 2002 22:16:54 GMT -5
Part V. Coach MT. Yes he is not liked, but he has never been fired as a coach before. He has a memorial cup and a calder cup. When did our favourite whipping boy win the AHL championship, (Calder Cup), Montreal?
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Post by montreal on Nov 18, 2002 23:21:57 GMT -5
When did our favourite whipping boy win the AHL championship, (Calder Cup), Montreal? There was a great article on Therrien at faceoff.com a while back, I'll try and find it. I'm 80% sure he won the calder, but after 5 years of college, my memory does play tricks on me. The thing that stuck out the most was that he was never fired from any coaching job. It also talked about him and AV being friends, and how it was tough for him to take over, since it was his friends job. I'll try and find the article, and if not I'll ask around. I could be wrong it happens more then I like it too.
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Post by montreal on Nov 19, 2002 1:00:16 GMT -5
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Nov 19, 2002 2:55:43 GMT -5
If Therrien is fired by Savard, how many teams will fire their NHL coaches and sign Therrien to replace them? About as many as Alain Vignault? Who tried to sign Houle? Savard is working on his 15 year plan to get a Stanley Cup and it's unlikely MT will still be around. (I don't think AS will still be around either.)
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Nov 19, 2002 2:56:30 GMT -5
Get Big Bird to replace Green. Get Big Bird to replace Therrien.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 19, 2002 9:15:15 GMT -5
If he wants the job...why not...
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Nov 19, 2002 16:15:52 GMT -5
Is Savard so stubborn that he will sink with his coach rather then admit it was a bad choice? or... ...does Savard simply likes a coach in whose business he can meddle without getting any backlash, something he gets with MT. I would have to disagree with you on both these points. Savard has shown in the past that he will admit to his mistakes and correct them when possible as he did with the Savage - Berezin trade. When Breezin showed he was not going to be the kind of player needed he was quickly moved out. Also Savard is not meddling as GM as some other GM's tend to do, such as Sather while in Edmonton or Muckler while in Buffalo. Since it is not public knowledge what was said, by going down and "chatting" with his players he may have given his coach a vote of confidence and "reminded" the team that either they follow the system the coach laid out or they could get players that will. Not for a minute do I believe they have a system to lay out, but I do think Savard was in his rights to speak to the players with or without the coach present.
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Post by Vichab on Nov 20, 2002 1:13:35 GMT -5
Getting Larry would be a major coup. Not only would we bring back some of the winning tradition which houle tried to do unsuccessfully with Mario, Yvan and Steve but Larry has a proven track record as a coach in the NHL. He is also a leader and commands respect. MT possesses none of the above. Boy would seeing Larry behind the bench make me happy. And when are they going to retire his number?
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