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Post by rocky on Jan 15, 2003 11:46:44 GMT -5
Whenever a group of my friends ( fellow old codgers ) get together over a tasty geritol we always end up with who was the greatest this the greatest that etc. etc. Defenseman, Bobby Orr echoes around the room like a spring day in the alps. " wait a minute", I say, " I think that Bobby may have been the greatest hockey player ever, but greatest defenseman, no way". Bobby was a tremendous player, but he merely used his position on D to roam freely without a checker on his tail. The Habs, to their credit, always had real great blueliners with Doug Harvey considered as the best. Some people, even Hab haters feel that Harvey was the best ever. I am barely old enough to remember seeing Doug play so I am grateful for his supporters. For me the ultimate guy was Larry Robinson, he had it all, great physical presence, great hitter, excellent hands, man he was the full meal deal. So, ther really is no answer to the question, its just a matter of personal choice, and big bird is mine.
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Post by NostalgHab on Jan 15, 2003 19:13:46 GMT -5
You said it. Robinson could do it all. He was a great defensive and offensive defenceman at the same time. He was physical but clean and was respected for that. He could crunch opposing players. A lot of you must have seen or heard about the check he through on Gary Dornhoeffer of the Flyers during the 76 Finals. I have it on tape. They had to nail the board back in. Unbelievable! You rarely saw him fight because I think nobody wanted to. He did have to fight early in his career to earn respect and he did. I don't think he ever lost a fight. I have on tape a Robinson-Schultz fight from the 73-74 season. No doubt, Robinson is one of hockey's all-time best. So is Doug Harvey even if I only saw him on tape.  |
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Post by moosehead2 on Mar 14, 2003 3:25:20 GMT -5
Without taking anything away from Larry Robinson who, in my opinion, was the best defenseman of the big three, and should have had his jersey number (19) retired years ago, I saw both play during their whole careers and I believe Doug Harvey was the better of the two.
Doug could change the pace of any game and was simply awesome on the power play. From 1955 to 1962 he won the Norris trophy 7 times out of 8.
The Big Bird played in the NHL during 21 years, from 1971 to 1991. He won the Norris only twice and he was the runner up only once. In the 70's when Bobby Orr won all those Norris trophys, Brad Park was the runner up 6 times.
During Larry's career Raymond Bourque won the Norris trophy 4 times, Denis Potvin won it 3 times and even Rod Langway beat Larry to it twice. Believe me it's Doug over Larry without hesitation. I agree that Bobby Orr was the best hockey player of all-time but Doug Harvey, in my book, is the best dman of all-time.
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Post by clear observer on Mar 14, 2003 20:00:41 GMT -5
Despite the fact I never had the privilege of seeing him play, logic dictates that when you completely and utterly dominate in your position year after year within a 6-team NHL, you have to be considered the greatest of all-time. Doug Harvey did this. He's the best - ever.
Orr was Gretzky on the blue-line. Robinson was brilliant at both ends, but not the greatest ever. Bourque and Potvin, the same. Langway was the best EVER one on one.
Interesting...3 Canadiens there...hehe.
CO
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Post by Cranky on Mar 14, 2003 21:54:38 GMT -5
Now I am only a spring chicken compared to you old foggies...
I saw Bobby Orr do things that I have never seen anyone else do, then or now. He could see the ice like a no one else ever has. Gretzky was good but Orr was magic. He knew how to find the seams better then anyone ever and he created plays better then anyone.
Was he the best defenseman? NO.
Big Bird. Controlled the game. He was feared by all. He knew how to apply liberal doses of pain at will. Not only in checking them but in the little things. A daintily applied errant elbow that would move a nose a few inches. An errand butt end that would reach in and remove a wisdom tooth or two. In fact, the Canadian Dental Association voted him Dental Profits Man of the Year.
What I remember was people staying away from the boards when they came down the wings, unless of course you wanted to become a human stickon. In fact, they had two maintenance crews in the old Forum. One for the glass and one that would scrape leftover body parts of the boards. I swear, I am only exaggerating a bit.
I remember seeing Larry smile after he pretzeled someone. He would sit on the bench, put his head down and crack a big wide smile. Nothing so obvious to the writhing corpse on the ice would notice but obvious to his teammates and “us” fans.
Those were the days. *sigh*
Mind you, how can we forget the immense pleasure we get with our modern day gladiators on sp-ice. Who amongst us does not feel a sense of pride and an adrenalin rush when we see Reverse lay a man to man kiss on each cheek of a grizzled opponent? Who amongst you will deny jumping out of his easy chair when you see Breezy put a deadly hug on them Laffian opponents and then let them go and wave longingly as he score on us? Isn’t that the ultimate epiphany? How can Larry compete with that?
What can I say, the Larry inspired me to be a defenseman. That and the burr in my butt.
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Post by habwest on Mar 14, 2003 22:04:26 GMT -5
Robinson was great but my vote goes to Harvey. He was dominant, did everything, and that was before the age of dmen acting like forwards. He could have played that way as well but that's not the way the game was played then. By the way, for the greatest player ever I vote for Howe. Orr was brilliant but for a relatively short period of time. The Rocket was the more exciting player but Howe was the best all around player and for a long, long time. He was the definitive power forward. In 1961-62 and 1962-63 the Habs had added Lou Fontinato, who was a pretty good heavyweight, for toughness. One night he tried to run Howe, they dropped the gloves and Howe nailed him with one punch, knocked him flat and busted his nose. Actually moved it over, plastered to one side of his face. That was the end of the Lou Fontinato experiment in Montreal. Nobody knew how to create space around himself like Howe. Man he was tough. Cheers |
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Post by Rhiessan on Mar 15, 2003 1:04:35 GMT -5
I started watching and following hockey around 1977 so I never got to watch Harvey and only got to really see Orr near the end. I have to stick with what I know so I would say BigBird for what he did in both ends of the ice but if you want my pick for the guy I would want the most inside my own blueline without a doubt I say Scott Stevens. Habwest, I really enjoyed your story about Leapin' Lou Fontinato. He retired right here in Guelph and is a freind of my dads and I have met him numerous times. One thing I always marveled about Lou was the sheer size of his hands, they are huge. He ran for mayor here aways back and lost but all the good ole boys still call him the "Mayor of Carden street" which is the street that Memorial Gardens is on which of course used to house the former Guelph Platers. It's funny though I've heard him tell alot of stories but for some strange reason he never mentioned that one  Edit:I was talking to my dad this afternoon and he said that Lou apparently to this day blames Howe for ending his career. Something about a cheap hit that damaged his spine. No love lost between those two to this day it seems. |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Mar 15, 2003 1:55:28 GMT -5
I saw Robinson for his entire amazing career.
Harvey I caught in his last season with the Habs, and then the two or so he played with the Rangers.
Oh yeah, he finished his NHL career with St-Louis at the age of 44 in the 1968-69 season. Played 70 games, was 2-20-22, with 30pim.
I used to buy my gear at his store in Notre-Dame-de-Grace (NDG) when I played Montreal city league in the 60s. That and his 7 Norris trophies get my vote.
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Post by BadCompany on Mar 15, 2003 13:24:46 GMT -5
Man, you guys are old.  |
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Post by MPLABBE on Mar 15, 2003 14:44:41 GMT -5
I remember one guy. He was tall. 6'4' tall. He could skate, it wasn't elegant but he got it done. He could pass, man could he pass...to the other team's forwards, in his own zone...he was a terror...for the fans. Other team's forwards were scared to death when they came down that left side. Scared they would get kissed by this d-man. He was a master of throwing it off the glass and playing the 'through'. All of this, in front of the watchful eyes of his GM and his D coach. They sat there and admired his ugly but effective style and wondered why they could not play this guy in their playoff run the year before. One night, this d-man played 28 minutes. Chris Pronger like. He was even named the first star one night after nearly throwing away a point for his team with a stupid icing with 30 seconds to go. The fans booed him. He teamed up with a man named Patrice.They where an unreal combo. Coughing up goal after goal and game after game. Finally and thankfully, once the coach left, these 2 teams were almost never seen together again. These days, this d-man can be seen eating popcorn. Thankfully, it appears he is now banished to the pressbox for a long time. Ladies and gentleman, number 54...PATRICK TRAVERSE ! LOL! seriously...Bourque, Leetch and Lidstrom are the best I have seen with my own eyes... |
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Post by rocky on Mar 15, 2003 19:10:47 GMT -5
 In Atlanta, see Hab jersey in crowd? This kind of hugging is permitted. Once you guys ogle Mrs Markov you'll see what i mean. ;D ;D HA, that's exactlly the way I saw Big Bird, only worded much better that anything i can muster. Want to split on a case of geritol? |
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Post by MPLABBE on Mar 15, 2003 20:02:11 GMT -5
and mrs Theodore(are they married though) ain't too bad either...
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Post by MC Habber on Mar 16, 2003 1:35:20 GMT -5
Someone told me that Doug Harvey wound up living in an abandoned rail car.  Anyone know if this is true? |
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Mar 16, 2003 1:41:41 GMT -5
The greatest defenseman of all time is without a doubt, Bobby Orr.
Doug Harvey was a better defensive defenseman, he controlled the pace of the game like nobody else, but he was not an offensive threat like Orr.
In Doug's day, defensemen were defensemen. They stayed at home and fed passes up the ice. Doug also carried the puck up the ice and nobody touched him. When he got into the other teams zone, he passed to a forward.
Red Kelly was a better offensive threat than Doug and his scoring skill moved him to center when he went to Toronto from Detroit.
Pierre Pilot had more offensive skills too.
Doug did what he was supposed to do and he was the best for a long time. He earned more Norris trophies and Stanley Cups too.
Doug Harvey and I learned to play hockey on outdoor ice. (No, I don't think he and I are in the same class). The hockey season was three months long and we played other sports in the other months. We didn't have the sophisticated coaching and training that kids enjoyed on artificial ice. Harvey could have made the NHL in Orr and Robinson's era, but he wouldn't have been as good as they were. He stood out in the fifties and sixties, but todays game is much faster and all players are more skilled.
It doesn't detract from Doug's greatness in his time, but I do think that Orr and Gretzky changed the game in a way no other players ever did before or since.
Skating...Orr
Shooting...Orr
Stickhandling...even
Defense...Harvey
Vision...even
Speed...Orr by a mile
Checking...Harvey
Longevity...Harvey
Dominance...Orr
Greatness...Orr
Point/Powerplay...Orr
Penalty killing...Orr
Forechecking...Orr
Pokechecking...Harvey
Player to build around...Orr
Overall...Orr
Best player ever at any position...Gretzky
Robinson never dominated the league the way Harvey did, but he was bigger, faster, better shot, more complete. Different eras.
Old fogies remember games of the fifties better than we remember last weeks game.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Mar 16, 2003 1:49:02 GMT -5
I saw Robinson for his entire amazing career. Harvey I caught in his last season with the Habs, and then the two or so he played with the Rangers. Oh yeah, he finished his NHL career with St-Louis at the age of 44 in the 1968-69 season. Played 70 games, was 2-20-22, with 30pim. I used to buy my gear at his store in Notre-Dame-de-Grace (NDG) when I played Montreal city league in the 60s. That and his 7 Norris trophies get my vote. Hey Bozo. Did we ever play against eachother. I played Jr. "B" for the NDG Monarchs and one year for the Verdun Maple Leafs after getting cut by the Jr. Canadiens. I might be a little older because I remember the Montreal Royals at the Forum. Jr Canadiens line of Perrault, Tardiff and Houle. Believe it or not, houle was the best of the three in Jr's. "On veut Globenski!" |
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Post by Cranky on Mar 16, 2003 12:41:28 GMT -5
Man, you guys are old. Why do I always get this paternalistic need to educate the young ones? BC, lets do some simple math. You are 30. Subtract 10 years and you have 20. Now take 20 out of 2003 and you get 1983. Yup, you have watched Hab’s hockey from 1983. Lucky you. Now, some more math. Can you handle all this thinking? Subtract 10 from 40 and you get 30. Take away 30 from 2003 and you get 1973. Follow me so far? Now imagine the Hab’s hockey a 40 year old has seen. More math. You still awake? Okay......... try this. An “old and twisted” 50 year old has seen Hab’s hockey since the early 60’s. In fact, the poor 50 year old b*stard has seen the Hab’s on the promised land longer then any human has a right to see. He has seen hockey like you will NEVER see again (Lord, I pray I’m wrong). You don't know what it is to reserve a spot on the pole so you can watch the boys parade by, year after year after year. You don't know what it's like to go down to a Hab's bar and drink with the boys. Beer flowed like the St. Lawrence and pride busted the banks. You drowned in pride. You had so much pride in them that NOTHING could be wrong and you KNEW it would last forever. When you went to Toronto, you didn't have to sneer at them, you just felt sorry for them. A Hab fan was the most hated and inspired more jealousy then is imaginable, in all of hockey. You just don't know. Now please don’t get upset and blame your mother. She is a fine woman, I am sure of that. Blame your Karma, yes your Karma. If you were lucky enough to be as old as us you would be LIKE US. The chosen ones.Son, you need to learn things. You need to bring us our Geritol and our Cognac's so we could get comfortable and relate all this knowledge and wisdom to you. You need to know how the promised land was our birthright. You need to know your Hab's Heritage as it is related first hand. Not from silly text books but from US, the old ones. The chosen ones. Take heed young one, "We pass to you the torch from our failing hands. May it be yours to hold up high.". |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Mar 16, 2003 15:05:29 GMT -5
Whenever a group of my friends ( fellow old codgers ) get together over a tasty geritol we always end up with who was the greatest this the greatest that etc. etc. Defenseman, Bobby Orr echoes around the room like a spring day in the alps. " wait a minute", I say, " I think that Bobby may have been the greatest hockey player ever, but greatest defenseman, no way". Bobby was a tremendous player, but he merely used his position on D to roam freely without a checker on his tail. The Habs, to their credit, always had real great blueliners with Doug Harvey considered as the best. Some people, even Hab haters feel that Harvey was the best ever. I am barely old enough to remember seeing Doug play so I am grateful for his supporters. For me the ultimate guy was Larry Robinson, he had it all, great physical presence, great hitter, excellent hands, man he was the full meal deal. So, ther really is no answer to the question, its just a matter of personal choice, and big bird is mine. Bobby Orr revolutionized the game as we know it today. He could control the flow of an entire game all by himself. He could score, like the 46 goals he potted in '74/75, or the 102 assists he amassed in 70/71. Was he tough? Yes, and he didn't have to prove it. Don Cherry was specific when talking about the rookie, Bobby Orr. It was his first year and a player from the opposing team thought he'd try to take on the new Boston rookie. Bobby laid such a beating on him that he was left alone for most of the remainder of his career. Was he all points and toughness, or could he play defence as well? Orr, routinely blocked shots and if you are fortunate to see some old vintage game tapes of Orr, you'll know that he was absolutely fearless. The '76 edition of Team Canada boasted players like Bobby Hull, Phil Esposition, Guy Lafleur, Larry Robinson, Serge Savard, Guy Lapointe, Denis Potvin, et al, in addition to Orr. Though Roggy Vachon was our team MVP, the tournament MVP was none other that BobbyOrr. And it was for good reason. Though his knees were horribly scared, he was arguably the most dominate player of the tournament. There are accounts by players on the team commenting on how confused they were that Bobby could even walk into the dressing room, let alone dominate the tournament. There are few other examples in sports where athletes have dominated a game as much as Orr did in hockey. Pele in soccer, Cassius Marcelus Clay (AKA Mohammed Ali) in boxing, Michael Jorden in basketball, and even Gretsky and Mario Lemeiux deserve mentions. But Orr was by himself in the early years. Don't get me wrong, guys; Harvey, Robinson, Potvin were all excellent dominating defensemen. But, the one guy who stands alone is Orr. Just my opinion. Now, talking of the Big Three, I would take any and/or all on my squad any day of the week and twice on Sunday. However, if I were to choose only one, Serge Savard would have been my choice. Don't ask me why, just a preference. I like the topic. I could go on all day. Cheers. |
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Post by rocky on Mar 16, 2003 16:10:32 GMT -5
 Anyone ever read this book? I imagine most public Libraries have a copy on hand or perhaps can get one for you upon request. Like I said at the start of this thing, (under the cover of 'rocky') I did see him play, by my God I couldn't stop watching Jean Beliveau and Rocket Richard long enough to notice this imortal. One of my closest friends who ( even older than moi) is a life-long Wings fan and Hab hater swears that Doug had no equal, period. But for me that's very nice, but I worshipped Big Bird. ps- please be nice to your librarian . We have to clean up the computers after all the pervs leave, yeach |
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Post by clear observer on Mar 16, 2003 22:10:21 GMT -5
Robinson was great but my vote goes to Harvey. He was dominant, did everything, and that was before the age of dmen acting like forwards. He could have played that way as well but that's not the way the game was played then. By the way, for the greatest player ever I vote for Howe. Orr was brilliant but for a relatively short period of time. The Rocket was the more exciting player but Howe was the best all around player and for a long, long time. He was the definitive power forward. In 1961-62 and 1962-63 the Habs had added Lou Fontinato, who was a pretty good heavyweight, for toughness. One night he tried to run Howe, they dropped the gloves and Howe nailed him with one punch, knocked him flat and busted his nose. Actually moved it over, plastered to one side of his face. That was the end of the Lou Fontinato experiment in Montreal. Nobody knew how to create space around himself like Howe. Man he was tough. Cheers I know this story well, however I'm pretty sure Fontinato was a Ranger at the time and not a Hab. You're right about the mitts on this guy...definitely not "surgeon's hands"! Ever see a young Gordie Howe photo with his shirt off...sloping shoulders akin to Mt. St. Anne? What a player! CO |
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Post by NostalgHab on Mar 16, 2003 23:26:00 GMT -5
Speaking of Fontinato, I have his career ending neck(spine) injury on tape. Goes head first in the boards in a game against the Rangers at the Forum. I also have footage of Fontinato with a cast that goes up over his head...
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Mar 22, 2003 17:37:31 GMT -5
Hey Bozo. Did we ever play against eachother. I played Jr. "B" for the NDG Monarchs and one year for the Verdun Maple Leafs after getting cut by the Jr. Canadiens. I might be a little older because I remember the Montreal Royals at the Forum. Jr Canadiens line of Perrault, Tardiff and Houle. Believe it or not, houle was the best of the three in Jr's. "On veut Globenski!" I think you've got a handful of years on me. I played for Patricia Park (a good toughening process as you can imagine) and Terrebonne Park. All games outdoors, unless you made the playoffs. I remember one game against Benny Farm; -20º, our goalie didn't show, I volunteered to don the pads, we lost 5-2. Then entered sex, drugs and rock 'n roll. I was weak. I succumbed. Of course, but by age 16 I'd already had two concussions (which some claim explains my present behaviour) and a dislocated knee (the loudest pop I ever heard when it was put back in place). I was a defensive forward and d-man. I was reckless. My parents didn't approve. Hell, my girlfriend didn't approve. But yeah, those Saturday afternoon matinées with the Junior Canadiens. Killer! And they would sometimes outdraw the big team. LOL! Alan Globensky, where is he now!? |
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Anyone know if this is true?
