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Post by CentreHice on Apr 14, 2004 18:02:59 GMT -5
Is the following a fact? The reason it's important to me, is because it's great ammo for anyone who tries to discount the Habs' Cups by saying we had the first two Quebec picks for decades as well as our regular draft pick.
My brother (a fellow Habs' fan) told me that he has just read "Lions In Winter" and in that book they say the "myth" is just that...a "myth.
According to the book, to compensate for expansion in 67, the Habs were granted the first two picks of Quebec's junior draft in lieu of their first two regular draft picks for a period of 5 years, and that the only time it was used was in 1969 when they took Marc Tardif and Rejean Houle. And then it was rescinded. I looked up the 68 draft and it seems they used it there too in picking up Michel Plasse and Roger Belisle. That's why they never got Gilbert Perreault in 70, and why trader Sam had to deal smartly to wind up with Lafleur in 71.
If the myth were true, then Conn Smythe never would have had a shot at Jean Beliveau, but he did. According to the book, Smythe saw big Jean play one game and was not impressed. Jean had the flu and was not up to snuff. Smythe did not believe the scouting reports.
Source: Lions in Winter I'm sure many of you have read it and can verify or challenge this info.
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Apr 14, 2004 20:49:51 GMT -5
Prior to the 1960s, there was no amateur draft. The recruitment of NHL players was simply a matter of first come, first served. The Montreal Canadiens ensured they were first served by establishing perhaps the greatest farm system in sports history, with junior and senior teams on the prairies, minor pro teams in the U.S. and entire leagues in Quebec. The Leafs operated a similar network in Ontario and beyond. The Leafs and Canadiens held a further advantage as well. Each NHL franchise had exclusive rights to players within its 50-mile territorial limits. So the Leafs and Canadiens could browse the neighbourhood rinks near Toronto and Montreal at their leisure, while the Rangers had a lock on the next great goalie from Hoboken. Most of these advantages disappeared in 1963 with the introduction of the amateur draft. But the Leafs and Canadiens continued to benefit from players developed under the old system well into the 1970s. - proicehockey.about.com/library/blquestions_territorialrights.htm |
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Post by CentreHice on Apr 14, 2004 21:30:22 GMT -5
Thank you, Mr. B.
Finally, the truth for all those Leafs fans I encounter who discount most of the Habs' Stanley Cups. It's a myth they'd like to believe to rationalize their impotence. Nice to know they held the same rights in Ontario and beyond. My response to them has been, "Are you saying Quebecois hockey players are superior? Hmmmm....is that what you're saying?"
CHeers.
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Post by LeafSuck on May 4, 2004 7:06:11 GMT -5
Glad that is cleared up. I often here Laff fans complaining that the Habs had first dibs on all French players. Ugh. Like they never got first crack at Ontario kids? Guess it's just more blue and white hypocracy.
Too bad we didn't get first dibs on some of the other French stars of the 60's and 70's. I am sure Bossy, Perreault, Gilbert, Dionne, Potvin would have all looked great in the red, white and blue.
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Post by Strummerman on Jun 1, 2004 17:39:06 GMT -5
Glad that is cleared up. I often here Laff fans complaining that the Habs had first dibs on all French players. Ugh. Like they never got first crack at Ontario kids? Guess it's just more blue and white hypocracy. Too bad we didn't get first dibs on some of the other French stars of the 60's and 70's. I am sure Bossy, Perreault, Gilbert, Dionne, Potvin would have all looked great in the red, white and blue. Then again Bobby Orr Wayne Gretzky Bobby Hull Phil Esposito Brad Park Larry Robinson Bob Gainey would have looked good in a Toronto uniform |
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Post by franko on Jun 1, 2004 20:10:20 GMT -5
I think there are still a lot of sour grapes in Leaf-land (and I don't mean Don Cherry). As I recall, NHL franchises had the rights to all players in thier farm system (hence the Hab purchase of the ____, Beliveau's team -- and yes, shame on me for the brain cramp). The Boston Bruins liked Orr so much that they bought the Oshawa Generals so that they'd have his rights (many teams had salivated over him, as had many agents -- ____ ['nother brain cramp] latched on to him earlier than anyone expected and got his percentage). |
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Post by Strummerman on Jun 6, 2004 22:42:33 GMT -5
I think there are still a lot of sour grapes in Leaf-land (and I don't mean Don Cherry). As I recall, NHL franchises had the rights to all players in thier farm system (hence the Hab purchase of the ____, Beliveau's team -- and yes, shame on me for the brain cramp). The Boston Bruins liked Orr so much that they bought the Oshawa Generals so that they'd have his rights (many teams had salivated over him, as had many agents -- ____ ['nother brain cramp] latched on to him earlier than anyone expected and got his percentage). but you miss the point montreal had first right to the quebec players toronto had to share the ontario players with the other teams |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Jun 7, 2004 4:50:03 GMT -5
but you miss the point montreal had first right to the quebec players toronto had to share the ontario players with the other teams Re-read the second post in this thread, which describes *exactly* the rights the Canadiens and Leafs exercised. |
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Post by Strummerman on Jun 7, 2004 23:03:00 GMT -5
Re-read the second post in this thread, which describes *exactly* the rights the Canadiens and Leafs exercised. somehow jean beliveau from victoriaville made it to the habs- anyone believe a unilingual french player in the Lac ST Jean area could play for any team other than the Habs??? Obviously Ontario players 50 miles from Toronto could play on any team in the United States- I dont know where Parry Sound is but if its 50 miles from Toronto then Bobby Orr was lost and Phil Esposito came from Sault St Marie and... |
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Post by Montrealer on Jun 7, 2004 23:19:18 GMT -5
Without a true draft, anyone outside the territorial area was pretty much fair game.
Since Quebecois players preferred to stay home, that explains that.
Of course, it was a big conspiracy to the Leafs, even though they were able to go after the entire country (as the Habs did) - and their biggest troubles (not winning a cup) began after a true amateur draft was begun.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 15, 2004 19:20:42 GMT -5
Without a true draft, anyone outside the territorial area was pretty much fair game. Since Quebecois players preferred to stay home, that explains that. Of course, it was a big conspiracy to the Leafs, even though they were able to go after the entire country (as the Habs did) - and their biggest troubles (not winning a cup) began after a true amateur draft was begun. It's interesting what teams did to secure their star players. The Red Wings once purchased an entire minor league in order to secure the services of Nick Libett. Also, the Bruins had a lock on a piece of Southwestern Ontario; the Oshawa area more specifically. That's how they got Bobby Orr. However, I remember how many of my friends would complain that Montreal used to get their choice of the top two Francophone players in Quebec every year. That might have been true, but it only if they weren't protected by other teams or if they weren't under a "C" note or paper (something like that) by another team. I'll further define that once I consult my references. Cheers. |
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Post by Toronthab on Aug 19, 2004 19:55:08 GMT -5
Without a true draft, anyone outside the territorial area was pretty much fair game. Since Quebecois players preferred to stay home, that explains that. Of course, it was a big conspiracy to the Leafs, even though they were able to go after the entire country (as the Habs did) - and their biggest troubles (not winning a cup) began after a true amateur draft was begun. Living in Toronto lo these many years, it's great to have the old Montreal advantage canard put to rest. Great question and great answers. My life will be more amusing in the To. pre-game dresssing rooms. Thanks. |
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Post by Strummerman on Sept 2, 2004 18:56:37 GMT -5
Living in Toronto lo these many years, it's great to have the old Montreal advantage canard put to rest. Great question and great answers. My life will be more amusing in the To. pre-game dresssing rooms. Thanks. Well Im glad your satisfied but if you had read my post it is quite clear Montreal had a great advanatage |
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Post by franko on Sept 2, 2004 20:58:19 GMT -5
The advantage may have been that Quebecers wanted to play for the Habs, but just how many players could they dress in any one year? I guess some might have said Habs or nothing, but surely not everyone! And I notice that not every roster player throughout the early history of the Habs had a Franco-name.
What it comes down to is smart leadership/management, something that other teams have since picked up on. You can say that the Habs had an unfair advantage, but the truth is that the Leafs (and other teams in the league) missed thier opportunities.
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Post by franko on Sept 2, 2004 21:01:50 GMT -5
somehow jean beliveau from victoriaville made it to the habs- Beliveau did not want to play for the Habs, or for any other NHL team, really. But the Habs coveted him so they bought the team he played for, made it a pro team, and then promoted him to the bigs. The Boston Bruins bought the Oshawa Generals (where Bobby Orr was playing) and so he became "theirs". Smart move. The whining that goes on drives me nuts: we weren't smart enough to think ahead, therefore the other teams had an unfair advantage. Balderdash! |
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Post by Strummerman on Sept 3, 2004 14:45:47 GMT -5
The advantage may have been that Quebecers wanted to play for the Habs, but just how many players could they dress in any one year? I guess some might have said Habs or nothing, but surely not everyone! And I notice that not every roster player throughout the early history of the Habs had a Franco-name. What it comes down to is smart leadership/management, something that other teams have since picked up on. You can say that the Habs had an unfair advantage, but the truth is that the Leafs (and other teams in the league) missed thier opportunities. Some of it was shrewd management. However, even today if you take all the players from Quebec and lump them on one team you got a great hockey team. 1) Lecavlier 2) St Louis 3) Gagne 4) Brodeur 5) Damphousse and this is a low point in Quebec stars at one time we had the likes of Mario Lemieux Ray Bourque Patrick Roy Denis Savard Luc Robitaille Claude Lemieux Kevin Lowe etc etc etc playing at the same time. I think that would have been another 5 year cup dynasty for the Habs if they were able to grab all the quebec players |
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Post by Strummerman on Sept 3, 2004 14:48:08 GMT -5
Beliveau did not want to play for the Habs, or for any other NHL team, really. But the Habs coveted him so they bought the team he played for, made it a pro team, and then promoted him to the bigs. The Boston Bruins bought the Oshawa Generals (where Bobby Orr was playing) and so he became "theirs". Smart move. The whining that goes on drives me nuts: we weren't smart enough to think ahead, therefore the other teams had an unfair advantage. Balderdash!Im not sure that is right about beliveau. He enjoyed playing in Quebec city and he was paid about the same as he would with Habs. He finally agreed to join the Habs when they upped the price. However, there was no bidding war with other teams cause Beliveau had no intention of playing with anyone else. One of the few players I remember that didnt play for the Habs that was French was Camille Henry. I never knew why he played for the Rangers. Another one was Marcel Pronovost. The fact they were bilingual may have been a reason |
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Post by franko on Sept 3, 2004 20:14:59 GMT -5
A little searching (doesn't take too much) finds (and this is only one of a number of sites that report the same): 1952-53 saw Beliveau play 3 games with the Canadiens where he scored 5 goals. He finished the season back with the Quebec Aces, where he once again led the league with 50 goals and 89 points.
The Montreal hockey fans were getting restless and they wanted to see Beliveau in the red, white, and blue. Frank Selke was having trouble signing the big centre so he bought the entire Quebec Junior League in the hopes of signing Beliveau. Selke and the Montreal fans got their wish in 193-54 season as Beliveau finally signed with the Canadiens for $20,000 a year. But it wasn't the money Jean was after, as he often made more playing amateur hockey when you included his $15,000 a year salary and added in his appearance fees and his salary from doing a daily radio broadcast. one site |
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Post by franko on Sept 3, 2004 20:16:33 GMT -5
if you take all the players from Quebec and lump them on one team you got a great hockey team. with lots of players left over to go to other teams. Someone else's turn to join the fray. |
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Post by Strummerman on Sept 4, 2004 23:56:01 GMT -5
A little searching (doesn't take too much) finds (and this is only one of a number of sites that report the same): 1952-53 saw Beliveau play 3 games with the Canadiens where he scored 5 goals. He finished the season back with the Quebec Aces, where he once again led the league with 50 goals and 89 points.
The Montreal hockey fans were getting restless and they wanted to see Beliveau in the red, white, and blue. Frank Selke was having trouble signing the big centre so he bought the entire Quebec Junior League in the hopes of signing Beliveau. Selke and the Montreal fans got their wish in 193-54 season as Beliveau finally signed with the Canadiens for $20,000 a year. But it wasn't the money Jean was after, as he often made more playing amateur hockey when you included his $15,000 a year salary and added in his appearance fees and his salary from doing a daily radio broadcast. one site Beliveau knew he would join the habs sooner or later, they showed his biography on the Biography channel |
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