End of the playoff road for the Habs?

[Zaphod_Beeblebrox]

Well it has come to this.... Down 2-1 to the "powerhouse" Panthers   Sabres and Caps breathing down their necks. Nice play by Breezer with 10 seconds left!!!   Call me a pessimist, but this loss IMHO is the beginning of the end for the boys playoff run. And whoever was responsible for the lineup gaffe should be tarred and feathered! All in all an embarrassing loss. I've been quiet on the Therrien Bashing front, preffering to give him the benefit of the doubt, but if he was responsible for writing Asham's name in the starting line up he must be held responsible. Damn I'm pissed!

[Gord]

I thought two heads were better than one, Zap?  You wanna blame this on someone, pin it squarely on Quintal for that boneheaded penalty with less than 5 minutes remaining.  He knew it, too.

[habwest]

Didn't watch much of the game, tuned in just in time to see the winning goal. But from what I read and the stats it seems the boys got out husseled for much of the game. If so we might as well tar them too. The whole team, coaches and players, are a pretty sorry lot. Since the break they've had a pretty good opportunity but they're making a hash of it.

Some lack talent and many appear to lack heart. Although I did see Markov go after a guy at the end. Regardless, I'm sure Savard is taking notes on all of this. He may need the underachievers for the short term but they won't be with the team in the long run.

[Gord]

Truth be told, I didn't think they played that poor a game..  They were in it from start to finish, they got many excellent chances on the goalie, and the weren't seriously outworked (in my opinion).  Their chances weren't buried, and Flaherty came up with some huge saves when it was necessary.  Florida played good defense all night, and kept us to the outside for the most part.  

A disappointing loss, to be sure, but the boys certainly played better tonight than more than one of their wins they've "earned" this season.

[BadCompany]

We're done. Finished. Caput. Its all over.

We have said right from the beginning (or at least for the last three months) that it was going to take some team winning 5, 6 or 7 in a row to snare the last playoff spot, and we looked at the schedule and figured it was us. We figured wrong. The Washington Capitals have not lost since the trade deadline (6 in a row I believe), they have the best player in the world, an elite goalie and a supporting cast that we can only dream of having. We're toast.

We play 9 more games? I betcha we don't win more than 3. I can see Pittsburgh passing us. They are only 6 points behind us, they have a game in hand, and they should sweep the home and home we have with them next week.

As an organization, the Montreal Canadiens have failed. From the team president, who doesn't appear to have any real job, to the general manager who gambled heavily on acquiring mediocre, older, veteran players (most signed long term), to a coaching staff that not only cannot implement or devise any sort of system whatsoever, but who does not even know who is on the bench or who should be on the ice, to the players who just don't give a damn. When your best skaters are a near-40 year old (Gilmour), a reject from the Swiss Elite League (Petrov) and an aging 3rd line penalty killing specialist (Juneau), you know there is something wrong.

I said at the beginning of the year, after the Canadiens failed to land Brett Hull, that I thought we would be battling for the 1st pick overall. Were it not for Jose Theodore, we would be. Where would we be if Doug Gilmour hadn't gone on his second half tear, even with Theodore? What does it say about our team that we are desperately hoping for the return of a 33 year old man with one-arm, and a man who is just happy to be alive today, both of them under 5'9?

A defensive team that gives up 40+ shots a game? That's ridiculous. This week we lost to two expansion teams (Nashville and Florida), and just barely managed to tie a 3rd (Tampa). My god! Look at that Florida team! It's pathetic! AND they were playing their second game in two nights, after travelling in a snow storm! They had lost 5 in a row coming into the game, Nicklas Hagman (who?) is their best player AND WADE FLAHERTY was their goalie!!! WADE FLAHERTY! That would be like if we stuck Evan Lindsay into nets for the Habs one game, and beat the Colorado Avalanche. It just shouldn't happen.

No excuses. None. Even if we make the playoffs, we do not deserve to.

I have tried to bite my tongue, and stay positive, and upbeat, and hope for the best, but today I am embarrassed to be a Hab's fan. Embarrassed.

[Gord]

Jeez, relax BC.  You're going to pop a blood vessel there, bud.  Maybe you didn't notice, but those "lowly" expansion teams have been giving the "elite" teams some real trouble lately.  It was all Detroit could do to tie Nashville the other day (Detroit!), and maybe you didn't notice Atlanta delivering a thorough drubbing to Ottawa recently, Minnesota beating St. Louis last night, and division-leading Boston needing overtime to beat Tampa Bay the other day!

These guys have only pride left to play for, and their jobs next year, and they relish their role of spoilers.  

Let's not even get into the fact that arguably the team's two best forwards have been out for the entire season, all but Audette's 5 games.  

We've got one of the best goaltenders in the entire league who gives us a chance to win every single night, and those two players returning imminently.  This season is not over yet.  Frankly BC, to paraphrase Darth Vader, I find your lack of faith disturbing.

[Cranky]

Damn, I just lost an entire article on this to the ether. Damn. And I have no time to rewrite it. "F"

Bottom line. This team is what it is. A collection of third and fourth liners. Theo strung us along for a while but the rest of the miserable failures just could not raise, or did not give enough of a f**k to raise their game.

I am deeply disappointed. My team has let me down. Miserably.

[Johnny Verdun]

BadCompany said:

We're done. Finished. Caput. Its all over....

As an organization, the Montreal Canadiens have failed....

I have tried to bite my tongue, and stay positive, and upbeat, and hope for the best, but today I am embarrassed to be a Hab's fan. Embarrassed.

First, we're not done.  It only looks that way.  The team could rally. They need your support.

Second, the organization has not "failed".  The franchise is in better hands and is better run now than at any time in the last 7 years.  It took us 5 solid years to get into this mess but you want the mess to be fixed in 14 months (like Phoenix?  riggght).

Third, and last, Therrien is a minor irritation, like a rash, and we will be rid of him shortly.  No reason to be embarrassed. You want embarrassment? Go and find a site that lists the Habs transactions in the 12 months leading up to Houle's departure.  This is what you'll see: names such as Richter, Landry, Bertrand, Shannon, Ciccone, Campbell, Deslisle, Bashkirov, Lind, Chouinard and Darby. Then, then I was embarrassed.  This team has 13 points more at this point than they did last year (58 or so). They lost three of their top players for a combined 225 games. But for a clown as a coach, they'd still have a 60/40 shot of snagging eighth. A playoff spot is a bonus, intended as a little gift to the fans to placate and mollify the impatient while the foundation is being poured....

So pull yourself together....the price of cabbage is holding steady.

[BadCompany]

Gord said:

Jeez, relax BC.  You're going to pop a blood vessel there, bud.  Maybe you didn't notice, but those "lowly" expansion teams have been giving the "elite" teams some real trouble lately.  It was all Detroit could do to tie Nashville the other day (Detroit!), and maybe you didn't notice Atlanta delivering a thorough drubbing to Ottawa recently, Minnesota beating St. Louis last night, and division-leading Boston needing overtime to beat Tampa Bay the other day!

These guys have only pride left to play for, and their jobs next year, and they relish their role of spoilers.  <br>
Let's not even get into the fact that arguably the team's two best forwards have been out for the entire season, all but Audette's 5 games.  <br>
We've got one of the best goaltenders in the entire league who gives us a chance to win every single night, and those two players returning imminently.  This season is not over yet.  Frankly BC, to paraphrase Darth Vader, I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Am I overreacting? I don't think so. You talk about Detroit barely tieing Nashville, forgetting to mention that Detroit started their backup goalie in that game, didn't have Steve Yzerman and outshot the Predators 38-20. The "drubbing" of Ottawa by Atlanta was a 3-2 win, in a game, again where Ottawa started their backup goalie (indeed, their 3rd stringer) and still outshot the Thrashers 52-15. Minnesota beat St. Louis last night, despite being outshot 27-17 and having the play in their zone for a full 6 more minutes than in St. Louis'. You talk about Boston barely beating Tampa, but the fact is, they did, and then rebounded to beat Carolina. Buffalo lost Dominic Hasek and Mike Peca, and they look like they will pass us. The Senators lost Alexie Yashin, and didn't miss a beat. The Bruins traded away a top 5 scorer for a couple of 2nd liners and lead the conference.

So what if we are ahead of last year's pace - we should be, we have close to $15 million more invested in the payroll. Injuries? Big deal. Alain Vigneault had worse and had his team just as close and playing with much more fire. Did I want a quick turnaround? An improvement in the franchise? You bet I did. I also would have settled for a plan, an idea for the future. What is the plan for the future? People keep saying that Savard won't give up young players or picks, forgetting that not only did he give up Danius Zubrus, but he offered Mathieu Garon (some say Jose Theodore), Andrei Markov, Mike Komisarek, and Alexie Perezhoughin for one player. Published reports say he handed Rick Dudlely a list of Montreal's players and said "take what you want". Gawd knows what his offer was for Vincent Lecavalier. We gave up at least a 3rd for Sergie Berezin, a 4th for Stephane Quintal, a 6th and PJ Stock for Gino Odjick - I mean come on! Did anybody stop to think that maybe the only reason Savard hasn't traded any more young kids is because nobody else wants them?

Instead, we have one of the older teams in the league (its true), a payroll in the upper half of the league, and a whole lot of veterans signed to long term contracts. We have two good prospects (Hainsey and Komisarek) and a bunch of junior maybes. We have no young, impact players, aside from the goalie. Zednik? He's already 27 you know.

One game, I can take. But this is a pattern, and we've seen it all year. Ask yourself this - do you think we will make the playoffs next year? With Washington gelling now, finally, with the Rangers having all that talent, with Buffalo having all those young and improving kids, with Pittsburgh having Mario back, with Tampa having an elite goalie and an improving Prince Vince, with Atlanta having two superstars? Where is our improvement going to come from? By replacing Gilmour (point-a-game) with Koivu? Replacing Petrov with Audette? Bouillon or Souray with a rookie, Hainsey? We have all seen how well this coaching staff handles young defencemen (Robidas, Markov).

You're darn right I have a lack of faith. Were it not for one player - one player - you'd all be right there with me.

[Yeti]

BC, Zednick turned 26 last January. Koivu is by far our best player and he's 26 or 27. I was  disappointed to see Zubrus go but we did received two young players in that deal. I feel both teams did good. I'm as frustrated as you regarding our current performances but I still think we are on the right track long term. Our best prospects won't be ready for prime time before 2-3 years, at least those up front. Gilmour will be gone for sure. Perreault, Audette and Juneau will be playing their last season.

Yes, Savard did make some mistakes and the honeymoon is over but he's the best GM we had in awhile, he received a clear message from Gillett I think, make the playoffs asap, adding veterans was the only way to do it for this year.

But even if our team is not very talented right now, we can play a lot better than that, at least with more determination. We have been brutal for an entire month now, thus my conclusion that something isn't right between the coaches and the players. Maybe I'm wrong and we just overachieve during the first 6 months...

[Johnny Verdun]

BC, with respect, you're being hysterical.

Savard's iced a competitive team despite injuries as bad or worse (top TWO offensive talents, all season) than those faced by Houle.  Yet you're complaining about a 6th round pick?  Or a 3rd rounder in a weak draft?  Give me a break.  That third (the best pick given up) represents about a one in 15 shot of producing an NHLer for the 2006 season. You know this! The sixth given up for Odjik? This is a betrayal of some creed? Pull yourself together, man!

And don't tell me about what (rumors suggest) Savard might have done, as though that (combined with the hysterical and dramatic review of his "record") amounts to any kind of argument. All it does is reinforce my view that you're just frustrated. Frustrated because you want to see a winning product now and you refuse, for whatever reasons, to acknowledge that there is a plan but that it will deroulée over the course of three years rather than three months.

Anyway, people will see (and argue) whatever they want to justify their own gut reaction to a situation. But if you don't start with the conclusion ("we've failed") and instead assess the evidence and THEN decide the outcome, Savard has done a very good job, the team is where it deserves to be (based on talent, injuries, coaching, etc) and the future is pretty bright.  

Sure it would be nice if THIS team made it to the post-season, but it would be in large part a function of the Rangers meltdown, Pens injury woes, Caps sucking mysteriously, and Jersey mediocrity most of the season.  But if those teams had performed as expected, and Savard had iced a team comprised of guys like Descoteaux, Ward, Poulin,  Ribeiro, etc (and including the young "guns" he'd have surely brought back for Rucinsky and Savage!!!), the team would be 12 games below .500 and they'd be playing in front of 16,000 people instead of 21,000.  As we've discussed in the past, that might be okay for you and me, drinking $2 drafts and watching on TV, but it would be decidely less acceptable for people paying $100 (yeah, I know, last night wasn't exactly great value either).

And by the way, the Zubrus (youth) trade brought back a guy who's 25 and will likely finish with 25 goals, and it also brought us a late first round pick in a deep draft.  When did Zubrus last pot 25 goals? How many points would he have now playing with Gilmour instead of Jagr???

[BadCompany]

Johnny, Johnny, Johnny.

Where to begin?

I think you forget just how decimated Vigneault's last team was. You talk about losing Koivu and Audette (and really, Donald played 5 games, how much of an impact did he have on our season?), forgetting that AV's team lost Koivu (as usual), Savage (the broken back), Rucinsky (the infamous Marchment hit), Linden (as usual), Weinrich (broken foot), Brisebois (back spasms), Brunet (the equivalent of this year's Juneau/Dackell) and a host of others. That team had over 550 man-games lost to injury, nearly double what we have lost this year.

You say we have to go with veterans, in order to appease the paying patrons, and your point is well taken. And it is in that respect that Andre Savard failed. His "veterans" are not leading us anywhere. Berezin has been a bust, Audette played 5 games, Quintal's penalty may have cost us a playoff spot, Perrault has disappeared down the stretch, and so on. Long term contracts were awarded or picked up on to Perrault, Quintal, Odjick, Darby, Poulin, Audette, Petrov, Brisebois, Dykhuis. You say they will no longer be on the team - where are they going to go? Nobody wanted Darby, Landry or Poulin, and they are now making big bucks in the AHL. Do you think anybody is going to give us anything for Stephane Quintal, who has been run off of two teams because he said he only wants to play for Montreal? Where is he going to go? He's signed for three more years. Do you know that there is an NHL rule that states a team may only have 50 players under contract? Consider that when talking about signing Balej (who could go back into the draft) or Komisarek, or Perezhoughin or whoever. We have a significant chunk of that 50 locked up in mediocre players.

We have a fundamental difference of opinion here. You think Montreal would be 12 games under .500 if they went with kids, I seriously disagree. Ron Hainsey made this team out of camp, as did Martie Jarventie, but they were both sent down to make room for Stephane Quintal. I ask you, is Quintal THAT much better than Hainsey, or Jarventie, or heck Francis Bouillon? Mathieu Descoteaux, 6'3, 215 lbs, had 43 points in the AHL last year, and his bio says "he likes to hit." He scored in his first NHL game, and had 2 points in 5 games. Is he all that much worse than Patrick Traverse? Why Shaun Van Allen and not Jason Ward or Benoit Gratton? How much better is Van Allen than those guys? Gino Odjick or Francis Belanger? Seriously? Is there a difference?

I am not saying scrap the core, dump Koivu, Zednik (and he ain't going to score 6 in the last 9 games to reach your 25 level) or Bulis. In fact, I wanted more of those guys, to replace the incompentant bozos we have. Everybody knew what Shaun Van Allen brings to the table, its not like they suddenly thought he was going to explode. He is, right now, no better than 3 or 4 guys we have in the AHL. So why not go with our own kids? Ditto for Quintal. I said it right from the beginning - Quintal will not play bad for us, but there are people in the AHL who can play just as well. Are people forking over the $400 it costs for one of them there pricey seats, so they can seen veterans like Van Allen, Lindsay, Odjick and Quintal? Of course not. Why Lindsay and not Asham? Why not both?

How many games do we lose that we won this year, if we had Francis Belanger in the lineup instead of Gino Odjick? I say none. How many games would we have lost, that we won, if we had Manny Malhotra and Barret Heisten instead of Sergie Berezin? Asham instead of Lindsay? Ward instead of Reid Simpson? Hainsey/Jarventie/Descoteaux instead of Traverse? None. Where are the 12 games under .500 going to come from?

And that's where the problem is. I really believe we would be in just as good (or bad) of shape as we are today with the kids, instead of the overpaid vets. I used the picks as examples, not because I value a 6th round pick all that much, but because people say Savard won't give up picks, when he does. In fact, aside from the Kilger/Zholtok deal, I don't think Savard has made a move where he HASN'T given up a pick. And the return he is getting on those picks is nil, with the exception of the Bulis/Zednik deal.

I like Andre Savard, I think he is doing a fine job. But he gambled heavily on making the playoffs this year, and it ain't going to happen. I respect you opinion, and your points are extremely valid, but I maintain my position. Savard didn't bring in 11 over-30 veterans and raise the payroll into the mid-40s just to tied the team over until Josef Balej makes the team (if he ever does). He went for the playoffs, a fine and noble goal, with all kinds of good reasons for doing so. As you pointed out. But I just don't think they are going to make it.

I hope I am wrong, but for about a month now they have looked just terrible.

[Boston_Habs]

Playing guys like Ward, Darby, Hainsey, etc. wouldn't drop us 12 games under .500 IF they were playing on the 4th line, which they would be only if we had guys like Gilmour, Perreault, Juneau, and Dackell playing on the top 3 lines. But if you take Gilmour, Juneau, and Perreault out of the equation, then we definitely would be 12 games under if not more, and it would be UGLY down at the Keg.

It looks like these NHLers that Savard brought in will not carry us to the playoffs. But JV's point is that the playoffs this year would have been nice, and would have kept the dogs at bay, but really had no impact on the 3-year outlook of this team. Gimour and Juneau are not the future, but neither are Asham and Ward.

Yes we have some contract money tied up in some of these guys, but the money is not outrageous, and I don't think it will keep Gillett from taking on more salary in by some miracle Bobby Holik wants to wear the CH. Gilmour will be gone next year, Juneau has one more year with a club option for a 3rd, Dackell is worth every penny. Perreault and Audette have longer deals, but it's not like they are untradeable.

Cheer up. It's not that bad.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

End of the playoff road for the Hab's?

SO WHAT?

Do you really think that this team would change their character if they made the playoffs and played the #1 team. Would Koivu coming back from a long layoff, weakened by his exhausting fight, weighing 126lbs be able to carry the team on his shoulders?
Would Audette carry the team with his one good arm after his layoff?
Would Brisebois and Quintal stop making their sophomoric mistakes? Would Boillion grow 6 inches taller? Would Theo stop 60 Boston shots for a shutout and stop another 30 shots in overtime until Petrov scores a fluke goal? Would he do it again every night?
Would Therrien go to the wizard and get a brain?
I really cared when the Hab's missed the playoffs for the first time in a zillion years. Now it doesn't make a big difference. The franchise is in a sad state, not just because of a loss to a weakened last place Florida team.

[MPLABBE]

Zaphod_Beeblebrox said:

Well it has come to this.... Down 2-1 to the "powerhouse" Panthers   Sabres and Caps breathing down their necks. Nice play by Breezer with 10 seconds left!!!   Call me a pessimist, but this loss IMHO is the beginning of the end for the boys playoff run. And whoever was responsible for the lineup gaffe should be tarred and feathered! All in all an embarrassing loss. I've been quiet on the Therrien Bashing front, preffering to give him the benefit of the doubt, but if he was responsible for writing Asham's name in the starting line up he must be held responsible. Damn I'm pissed!

Yup, MT is the goat...he said it in his press conference...


I compare this loss to the one to Tampa Bay on home ice 2 years ago.We lost 4-3 or 5-3(with an empty netter) and for most of the game we faced another minor league goalie, Rich Parent.That loss cost us our season and this one may do just that.

[MPLABBE]

BadCompany said:

We're done. Finished. Caput. Its all over.

We have said right from the beginning (or at least for the last three months) that it was going to take some team winning 5, 6 or 7 in a row to snare the last playoff spot, and we looked at the schedule and figured it was us. We figured wrong. The Washington Capitals have not lost since the trade deadline (6 in a row I believe), they have the best player in the world, an elite goalie and a supporting cast that we can only dream of having. We're toast.

We play 9 more games? I betcha we don't win more than 3. I can see Pittsburgh passing us. They are only 6 points behind us, they have a game in hand, and they should sweep the home and home we have with them next week.

As an organization, the Montreal Canadiens have failed. From the team president, who doesn't appear to have any real job, to the general manager who gambled heavily on acquiring mediocre, older, veteran players (most signed long term), to a coaching staff that not only cannot implement or devise any sort of system whatsoever, but who does not even know who is on the bench or who should be on the ice, to the players who just don't give a damn. When your best skaters are a near-40 year old (Gilmour), a reject from the Swiss Elite League (Petrov) and an aging 3rd line penalty killing specialist (Juneau), you know there is something wrong.

I said at the beginning of the year, after the Canadiens failed to land Brett Hull, that I thought we would be battling for the 1st pick overall. Were it not for Jose Theodore, we would be. Where would we be if Doug Gilmour hadn't gone on his second half tear, even with Theodore? What does it say about our team that we are desperately hoping for the return of a 33 year old man with one-arm, and a man who is just happy to be alive today, both of them under 5'9?

A defensive team that gives up 40+ shots a game? That's ridiculous. This week we lost to two expansion teams (Nashville and Florida), and just barely managed to tie a 3rd (Tampa). My god! Look at that Florida team! It's pathetic! AND they were playing their second game in two nights, after travelling in a snow storm! They had lost 5 in a row coming into the game, Nicklas Hagman (who?) is their best player AND WADE FLAHERTY was their goalie!!! WADE FLAHERTY! That would be like if we stuck Evan Lindsay into nets for the Habs one game, and beat the Colorado Avalanche. It just shouldn't happen.

No excuses. None. Even if we make the playoffs, we do not deserve to.

I have tried to bite my tongue, and stay positive, and upbeat, and hope for the best, but today I am embarrassed to be a Hab's fan. Embarrassed.

I wonder how many people will be reporting to local hospital's with broken ankles, eh?

Love jumping on and off that bandwagon.. ;D


BC, we are still in the 8th spot...Washington is playing great, but they have faced a bunch of weaker opponents(Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Columbus, Colorado isn't playing great hockey right now)...they have little depth at center and on the blueline.We still have a great chance...


WE JUST NEED TO GET OUT OF THIS SLUMP ASAP!


IF we lose to TB....then, I am going to call them done.

[MPLABBE]

BC has a point. No one can PROOVE we would have been worse with Hainsey instead of Quintal, Bélanger instead of Odjick, Ribeiro instead of Berezin, Descotaux instead of Traverse or Bouillon, Ward instead of Van Allen, Asham instead of Lindsay and so on...


Not only would we probably be just as good, IF NOT BETTER, we would be saving A TON of cash, cash that could be used to go out and sign Theodore long term and sign some good UFA's(not scrap heat nobody wanted...)

[Doc Holliday]

BC, BC, BC....

...what's that you told me 2 weeks ago when I said I wasn't too happy with the plan and direction?

Was it "...mmm! you could be on to something..."

no...no...  it was "...I think I agree..."

no...  wasn't quite that...

Oh yes!  I recall now..."..Gee Doc, why all the bittereness..."

Seems like your facing the same walls...

You...bitter BC, you...

 

[Johnny Verdun]

BadCompany posted:

I think you forget just how decimated Vigneault's last team was....

Well, no, I don't. But I can't ignore the seriousness of losing Audette, Koivu, Souray and Hackett for pretty much the entire season.  Of course Audette only played 5 games for us, but he was scrappy and involved and productive and we were (justifiably) counting on him to provide the offence that Rucinsky and Koivu weren't (for different reasons).

You say we have to go with veterans, in order to appease the paying patrons, and your point is well taken. And it is in that respect that Andre Savard failed. His "veterans" are not leading us anywhere.

Gilmour? Juneau? Dackell? Perreault? They're not leading us anywhere?  We may not be safely entrenched in 6th spot, but they've all contributed at least as much, if not more, than we expected when the signings were made.  I was one who was calling for Gilmour to retire in December.  And almost everybody picked the Habs to finish between 9th and 13th in the conference

Long term contracts were awarded or picked up on to Perrault, Quintal, Odjick, Darby, Poulin, Audette, Petrov, Brisebois, Dykhuis.

Let's look at them one by one.  Perreault is our leading goal scorer and is among the best face-off men in the biz.  It's true his production has fallen off but that has a lot to do with Berezin's terrible play and the fact that Gilmour's got the winger's with finish.  And in any event he's shown signs of life lately.  As for the length of his contract, at the amounts involved and with the season he's having, he's easily tradeable if that's what Savard should decide to do.

Quintal? Far from stellar it's true, but with the loss of Souray I'm actually glad he's here.  How much less physical would we be with Jarventie or Traverse in there?  How much less effective with Descoteaux?  The latter is, by the way, almost a failure at this point and is very, very unlikely to become an NHL defenceman.  I think he's 24 by now and he's not considered a solid d-man in the AHL (and certainly no stand out). Quintal is not under contract for three more years but only two and the amount isn't crazy (1.7m).  He could be traded.

Odjick is under contract only for next season and I'll grant you that even that's a bit much.  The contract can likely be bought out for a modest amount, though, and it's still not inconceivable that he might be picked from the waiver wire.

Darby and Poulin are under contract for next season only.  Only one of them is Savard's doing (Darby).  I'm almost sure that Poulin was signed in August 2000 for three years, by Reggie.

I'll do Audette and Petrov together.  Both are decent assets and are signed at prices that make them tradeable.  Audette, at 3 per year, will be a bargain compared to Savage or Rucinsky at similar (or greater) amounts, especially if he continues to put up numbers on the powerplay (which Savage always stopped doing after November 1st.  Petrov is now among the most underrated players in the league and I actually think he'd have helped the Russians at Salt Lake more than Valerie Bure.  I have no problem with him being signed at a million bucks a year.  When he played with Koivu we used to bemoan his lack of finish.  Well, now he has some.

Brisebois and Dykhuis?  No problem with these signings either, except for the amount in Brisebois' case and the no-trade (I think just for the first two years).  Brisebois has gotten his game together, he is a right shooting pp d-man, and he can be useful over the next three years.  Dykhuis is a bargain, frankly, and has just gotten better each of the last three years since he arrived at age 28 or so.

To be continued....

[Johnny Verdun]

Do you know that there is an NHL rule that states a team may only have 50 players under contract? Consider that when talking about signing Balej (who could go back into the draft) or Komisarek, or Perezhoughin or whoever. We have a significant chunk of that 50 locked up in mediocre players.

No problem.  Who goes?  Probably your pet project Descoteaux, Razin, Landry, Deslile (if he's still around) and a handful of others.  Savard will make the space easily and happily.

We have a fundamental difference of opinion here. You think Montreal would be 12 games under .500 if they went with kids, I seriously disagree. Ron Hainsey made this team out of camp, as did Martie Jarventie, but they were both sent down to make room for Stephane Quintal. I ask you, is Quintal THAT much better than Hainsey, or Jarventie, or heck Francis Bouillon? Mathieu Descoteaux, 6'3, 215 lbs, had 43 points in the AHL last year, and his bio says "he likes to hit." He scored in his first NHL game, and had 2 points in 5 games. Is he all that much worse than Patrick Traverse? Why Shaun Van Allen and not Jason Ward or Benoit Gratton? How much better is Van Allen than those guys? Gino Odjick or Francis Belanger? Seriously? Is there a difference?

Well, in most of the cases you mentioned, yes.  Gino Odjick, for example, skates well enough not to be totally out of the play. Not so with Belanger. Unless something dramatic has happened since last year (which I doubt), Belanger has a lot of work to do on his skating if he wants to make it even as a dispenser of thunder in the NHL.  

The Traverse for Jarventie or Descoteaux one is hard to argue with. I simply don't know.  You may be right about that one.

Van Allen has been useful and responsible and Gratton, after all, has been injured.  I think he was injured before the Rucinsky deal that brought Van Allen in.  Ward is not a centerman. The other thing is that Van Allen was both needed because he plays center and Dallas was probably insisting we take his salary on.  In any event, he doesn't fit your model because he's a UFA come July.

I am not saying scrap the core, dump Koivu, Zednik (and he ain't going to score 6 in the last 9 games to reach your 25 level) or Bulis. In fact, I wanted more of those guys, to replace the incompentant bozos we have. Everybody knew what Shaun Van Allen brings to the table, its not like they suddenly thought he was going to explode. He is, right now, no better than 3 or 4 guys we have in the AHL.

Who do you propose can play 4th line center in the NHL better than Van Allen?  Aside from Darby (a doubtful propostion, I don't see anybody else.

[Johnny Verdun]

So why not go with our own kids? Ditto for Quintal. I said it right from the beginning - Quintal will not play bad for us, but there are people in the AHL who can play just as well. Are people forking over the $400 it costs for one of them there pricey seats, so they can seen veterans like Van Allen, Lindsay, Odjick and Quintal? Of course not. Why Lindsay and not Asham? Why not both?

I'm a big fan of Asham. I think he should be in the lineup a lot.  I want to see Kilger between Lindsay and Asham

How many games do we lose that we won this year, if we had Francis Belanger in the lineup instead of Gino Odjick? I say none. How many games would we have lost, that we won, if we had Manny Malhotra and Barret Heisten instead of Sergie Berezin? Asham instead of Lindsay? Ward instead of Reid Simpson? Hainsey/Jarventie/Descoteaux instead of Traverse? None. Where are the 12 games under .500 going to come from?

And that's where the problem is. I really believe we would be in just as good (or bad) of shape as we are today with the kids, instead of the overpaid vets. I used the picks as examples, not because I value a 6th round pick all that much, but because people say Savard won't give up picks, when he does. In fact, aside from the Kilger/Zholtok deal, I don't think Savard has made a move where he HASN'T given up a pick. And the return he is getting on those picks is nil, with the exception of the Bulis/Zednik deal.

I like Andre Savard, I think he is doing a fine job. But he gambled heavily on making the playoffs this year, and it ain't going to happen. I respect you opinion, and your points are extremely valid, but I maintain my position. Savard didn't bring in 11 over-30 veterans and raise the payroll into the mid-40s just to tied the team over until Josef Balej makes the team (if he ever does). He went for the playoffs, a fine and noble goal, with all kinds of good reasons for doing so. As you pointed out. But I just don't think they are going to make it.

I don't think the payroll is in the mid-40s. Not at all. The lucky insurers and reinsurers are picking up the tab for most of Koivu, Audette, Souray and Hackett.  (that's probably where you get the extra $11,000,000)

I hope I am wrong, but for about a month now they have looked just terrible.

They do look terrible.  It's a mediocre team on the best of nights. Aside from killing penalties at home and goaltending, they are worse than two thirds of the league in every department.  With Saku and Audette in the lineup they'd have generated more offence for sure, and might even have been safely in eigth spot right now.  

At bottom, I just think this is all a way of making sure that a team is out there that can compete for a playoff spot. They're doing that. They may not succeed.  But I don't see that the future has been greatly compromised or prejudiced by giving up a handful of picks between the third and eighth rounds in a draft year that is widely considered to be a weak one, if not the weakest in recent memory.  As I've said before, I'd have been down with the programme if they'd unloaded Rucinsky, Savage, and a few others for picks or Malhotra type uncertainties, and if they'd iced a young but scrappy team this season and even next, even if that team would be more likely than not to finish out of the top eight.  In the long run, it might've been the better way to go, but that approach also involves downside risk, not the least of which is a couple of seasons where things seem (to the casual fan and the media, and the bozos who buy boxes) to be getting worse rather than better.  Gillet and Savard (or perhaps just Gillet and Boivin) decided not to go that route.  I can't blame them.  It's been done in such a way that we'll get where you want to be anyway.  The only difference is that the less casual fan will be less aware of the journey and will suffer less motion sickness as a result.

[Boston_Habs]

As a final thought on "would we be better playing the kids" approach, Scotty Bowman said a long time ago that you need experienced players to be successful.

Certainly not a radical thought, but the point is that young players make more mistakes than veteran players, and mistakes can cost you games, especially for a team that doesn't score a whole lot.

So even though Quintal may not be a more "talented " player than Descoteaux or Jarventie, I am positive those players would make more mistakes over the course of an 82 game season. Some may not result in goals, but some certainly would.  An unfortunate giveaway here, a bad penalty there... and you lose 2-1 instead of winning 2-1, and by the time April rolls around you ARE in fact 12 games under .500 and sitting in 12th place.

[BadCompany]

Doc_Holliday said:

BC, BC, BC....

...what's that you told me 2 weeks ago when I said I wasn't too happy with the plan and direction?

Was it "...mmm! you could be on to something..."

no...no...  it was "...I think I agree..."

no...  wasn't quite that...

Oh yes!  I recall now..."..Gee Doc, why all the bittereness..."

Seems like your facing the same walls...

You...bitter BC, you...

 

Well, you got me there...

In my own defence though, I have stated right from the beginning of the year that I wanted Montreal to pick up young kids - hence my obsession with guys like Jesse Wallin, Adam Mair, Matt Bradley and so on. Personally, I don't get the opposition some people have to this plan. I mean, what has been Savard's best trade? Linden, right? Where he traded an overpaid, veteran player who wasn't producing and who was a declining asset, and snared two young, promising players. Granted, it was a package deal, but you get the point. Did anybody in Montreal know who Richard Zednik or Jan Bulis were? Hasn't that trade worked out great for us (more or less)?

I have always said we should be targetting players who for whatever reason, are not getting the playing time they need or deserve. Zednik was stuck behind Peter Bondra in Washington, and thus didn't get the PP time, nor the #1 center, nor offensive chances, he gets here. Ditto for Bulis. If you do it right, you get some very good players, and the fans are happy.

Also in my own defence, I did state that I wanted Lindsay AND Asham in the lineup at the same time. If I had of known that Lindsay would be replacing Asham (and I guess I should have, given MT's way or working) I wouldn't have been in favor of it.

Oh well.

[BadCompany]

"Well, no, I don't. But I can't ignore the seriousness of losing Audette, Koivu, Souray and Hackett for pretty much the entire season.  Of course Audette only played 5 games for us, but he was scrappy and involved and productive and we were (justifiably) counting on him to provide the offence that Rucinsky and Koivu weren't (for different reasons). "

I don't ignore it either. But I was pointing out that two years ago, with a team with much less depth than the current one, we were in exactly the same position. Only that team had way more injuries. At the end of that season, when Montreal lost its final game to Ottawa and was eliminated, the crowd at the Molson Centre gave them a standing ovation, for a fine, season long effort. If we lose to Buffalo on that last weekend, do you think the crowd will give this team a standing ovation?

"Gilmour? Juneau? Dackell? Perreault? They're not leading us anywhere?  We may not be safely entrenched in 6th spot, but they've all contributed at least as much, if not more, than we expected when the signings were made.  I was one who was calling for Gilmour to retire in December.  And almost everybody picked the Habs to finish between 9th and 13th in the conference."

Sure those guys have been leading the team. They were also acquired for free. The assets Savard did have, Savage and Rucinsky, he used to acquire similar players. Free agency is used to plug holes with veterans - which Savard did admirably - but trades should be used, especially for a rebuilding team, to build for the future. Audette, Van Allen, Berezin, for Rucinsky, Savage, Brunet and (at least) a 3rd. Do you honestly believe that is maximizing our assets?

"Let's look at them one by one.  Perreault is our leading goal scorer and is among the best face-off men in the biz.  It's true his production has fallen off but that has a lot to do with Berezin's terrible play and the fact that Gilmour's got the winger's with finish.  And in any event he's shown signs of life lately.  As for the length of his contract, at the amounts involved and with the season he's having, he's easily tradeable if that's what Savard should decide to do."

Perrault had disappeared long before Berezin arrived. He is our leading scorer, and I don't mind having him on the team, but again he was acquired for free. Perreault has also been traded twice in his carreer; once for a 4th rounder, and once for Jason Podollan and a 3rd. The Leafs tried to trade him at the deadline last year to upgrade for the playoffs, and found no takers. He is what he is, and there aren't a lot of teams that are going to give up a lot for him.  

[BadCompany]

"Quintal? Far from stellar it's true, but with the loss of Souray I'm actually glad he's here.  How much less physical would we be with Jarventie or Traverse in there?  How much less effective with Descoteaux?  The latter is, by the way, almost a failure at this point and is very, very unlikely to become an NHL defenceman.  I think he's 24 by now and he's not considered a solid d-man in the AHL (and certainly no stand out). Quintal is not under contract for three more years but only two and the amount isn't crazy (1.7m).  He could be traded."

I disagree on Descoteaux. He had a great year in the AHL last year, and looked fine in a brief callup to Montreal. This year, for whatever reason, Montreal management pulled the rug out from under his career. Why? I don't know. But from the end of last season, to the beginning of this season, Descoteaux saw Markov (who started the year in the AHL), Hainsey,  Jarventie and Bouillon moved in front of him on the AHL depth chart. All are powerplay specialists (Descoteaux's forte). No wonder his stats fell off. Earlier this year, Pat Burns, doing commentary for the Manchester Monarchs, said that Descoteaux was the Citadelles best defenceman (ahead of Hainsey). We will never know if he could have done a better job than Quintal, but I think he could have. As for trading Quintal, to who? He told the New York Rangers - after taking all their money - that he didn't want to play for them, and he only wanted to play for Montreal. He was traded to Chicago, where he last less than half a season, before demanded to be traded to Montreal. Plus, if I am not mistaken, Montreal had to add an extra year to his contract, in order for him to take the reduced salary. Again, who is going to want this guy, after he refused to play for two other teams?  

"I'll do Audette and Petrov together.  Both are decent assets and are signed at prices that make them tradeable.  Audette, at 3 per year, will be a bargain compared to Savage or Rucinsky at similar (or greater) amounts, especially if he continues to put up numbers on the powerplay (which Savage always stopped doing after November 1st.  Petrov is now among the most underrated players in the league and I actually think he'd have helped the Russians at Salt Lake more than Valerie Bure.  I have no problem with him being signed at a million bucks a year.  When he played with Koivu we used to bemoan his lack of finish.  Well, now he has some. "

I'm just not sold on Audette. As I have said before, the guy has averaged just over 20 goals a year for close to 7 years now. Hardly elite. He will be 34 next year, making $3 million, and if ain't producing (which would be why we would want to trade him) there won't be a huge market for him. He's old, slow, doesn't play defence, averages 20 goals a season, is injury prone, and is making over $3 million (until he willl be 36). Can't see teams lining up for him either. Petrov is one of the most underrated players in the league, but I doubt anybody would give up anything for him. If we could get a Sergie Zholtok-like return, I would be ecstatic.

[BadCompany]

"Brisebois and Dykhuis?  No problem with these signings either, except for the amount in Brisebois' case and the no-trade (I think just for the first two years).  Brisebois has gotten his game together, he is a right shooting pp d-man, and he can be useful over the next three years.  Dykhuis is a bargain, frankly, and has just gotten better each of the last three years since he arrived at age 28 or so."

I don't really have a problem with these deals either, to be honest with you, but threw their names in there because it fits the pattern. Long term contracts to older players.  

"No problem.  Who goes?  Probably your pet project Descoteaux, Razin, Landry, Deslile (if he's still around) and a handful of others.  Savard will make the space easily and happily."

Sure he will. But we are rapidly running out of players to dump. Last year he didn't offer a contract to Alexander Buturlin, and only managed to keep him because of loophole in the rules. He let Tyler Hanchuk and Peter Chjvoka go, even though he could have retained them for two more years. Descoteaux and Ward will be gone, perhaps Dyment too, and quite frankly, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Josef Balej is allowed to go back into the draft. He just recently signed Matt O'dette. Why? I don't know. We are a Canadian team, and thus faced with the limitations and problems all Canadian teams face. In my mind we can't go wasting assets all the time like this.

"Who do you propose can play 4th line center in the NHL better than Van Allen?  Aside from Darby (a doubtful propostion, I don't see anybody else."

Darby scored 12 goals for us last year, killed penalties, and is making a mockery of the AHL. He could very easily play 4th line center. So could Chad Kilger, who in my opinion, should be groomed there for a 3rd line defensive specialist spot. Van Allen is a decent player, but saying we couldn't replace him... Though you are right in that Dallas probably insisted we take on his salary.  

"I don't think the payroll is in the mid-40s. Not at all. The lucky insurers and reinsurers are picking up the tab for most of Koivu, Audette, Souray and Hackett.  (that's probably where you get the extra $11,000,000)"

I added it up just yesterday, using the salaries from NHLPA.com. It came out to $38. (something) million, and that did not take into account the $2 million we are paying for Trevor Linden's salary, the $1.3 million for the combined salaries of Darby and Poulin (one-way), nor the salaries of Garon ($850,000), or Ribeiro ($950,000), who are also both one-way. We are also paying about $350-400,000 for Fiset. That comes out to mid-40s, if I am not mistaken. I hear fans always talk about "insurance", but I never hear that officially confirmed, and instead I also hear about managers complaining that they are hamstrung by having so much salary on the injury reserve.

"At bottom, I just think this is all a way of making sure that a team is out there that can compete for a playoff spot. They're doing that. They may not succeed.  But I don't see that the future has been greatly compromised or prejudiced by giving up a handful of picks between the third and eighth rounds in a draft year that is widely considered to be a weak one, if not the weakest in recent memory.  As I've said before, I'd have been down with the programme if they'd unloaded Rucinsky, Savage, and a few others for picks or Malhotra type uncertainties, and if they'd iced a young but scrappy team this season and even next, even if that team would be more likely than not to finish out of the top eight.  In the long run, it might've been the better way to go, but that approach also involves downside risk, not the least of which is a couple of seasons where things seem (to the casual fan and the media, and the bozos who buy boxes) to be getting worse rather than better.  Gillet and Savard (or perhaps just Gillet and Boivin) decided not to go that route.  I can't blame them.  It's been done in such a way that we'll get where you want to be anyway.  The only difference is that the less casual fan will be less aware of the journey and will suffer less motion sickness as a result."

I can't blame them either, and if they had of suceeded, they would be considered geniuses. But if they don't, then what? Its another year without the playoff revenue, another year without free agents, another year of declining ticket sales, another year of less TV exposure, and so on. Only our payroll is higher, we have an old team, and no young kids to dream about. I ask again, was there a huge backlash when unknowns like Kilger, Zednik and Bulis were acquired? Or did people love those moves?

Good debate, by the way.

[Johnny Verdun]

Yeah.  Good debate.

We do have young kids to get excited about, it's just that they're not in the NHL right now.  Next year we should have Hossa, Hainsey and perhaps even Milroy in the lineup.

Who goes?  Good question.  I see the following guys being released, bought out, waived or traded:

1. Berezin.  He may not even be signed.  The third we gave would hurt, but it was a legit play for scoring punch down the stretch.  

2. Odjick.  One way or the other, I see his roster spot opened up.

3. Van Allen.  Useful guy but Gratton is hungrier, cheaper and scrappier.

4. Ribeiro. He gets seconded to a Second Cup franchise to add some muscle.   We get back a pick and a blueberry scone.

5. Gilmour.  Depending on the FA market, his option may not be picked up.  I recall your post on the subject and it may be advisable to keep him,  but it's not a lock.

6.  Traverse. One way or another, Savard's got to do the honourable thing, 'fess up and get rid of Patrick, if need be by taking him out behind the shed and tatooing him with an old iron bar...

7. Robidas.  Trade.  He can play.  Just not here.

8. Bouillon.  Ditto.

9. Rivet or Quintal.  Whichever is easiest to move.  The other guy gets to watch a video of the Traverse mercy killing to make sure he gets the message.

That gives us:

at center: Koivu, Perreault, Juneau, Gratton
at LW: Zednik, Bulis, Lindsay,
at RW: Audette, Petrov, Dackell, Asham

at RD: Brisebois, (say) Rivet,
at LD: Dykhuis, Markov, Souray,

Plenty of room for Hossa, Hainsey (maybe Descoteaux or Jarventie), and maybe Milroy or Ward.  Those 3 or 4 guys will drop our average age and give us some jump, no? If this is our October roster, would you say we're on track:

Zednik/Koivu/Audette
Bulis/Perreault/Petrov
Hossa/Juneau/Dackell
Kilger/Gratton/Asham

Milroy, Ward, Lindsay

Brisebois/Dykhuis
Rivet/Markov
Souray/Hainsey
Descoteaux

Theodore
Garon

[PTH]

I gotta say I'm with BadCo on this one....

The cheap pickups and UFAs have done their jobs, but it's the trades to bring in more ageing guys that worry me. We can whine about Perrault, but it was him or Éric Landry in the lineup.

It's the trades to get a small, injury-prone, slow ageing winger (Audette) signed to a big money contract for 3 more seasons, and the one to get a lazy, selfish scoring winger who can't score (Berezin) that get to me.

I don't want to make a list of all the players we'd be "better off without", I just think the team could have a few more youngish players in the lineup, and be about the same. And then we might have a few more roster spots we won't have to re-fill within a year or two.

We can't have a 100% turnover every two years, yet going from UFA to UFA to fill gaps will do that.

Gratton instead of Van Allen, a guy like Bulis (ie - forward not getting a chance) should have been acquired for Savage, and another for Rucinsky. The team would be in basically the same situation as it is now, yet it wouldn't be looking like a team stuck in such a dead end.

Now that we have to face the fact that we could miss the playoffs, we have people making up lists of 8 or 9 guys that have to go - we can't be doing this over every summer...

Savard's plan has failed IMO, not through not making the playoffs, but through not rebuilding at all, just re-tooling.... we do this a couple more times, and Theo turns 31 and decides to go to a team that actually has front-line talent, and then, we're REALLY screwed !!

[Johnny Verdun]

This is not Savard's program for the future, but rather a one-off to buy some time and sell some tickets while the youth gets a little less youthful and readier for the NHL.  Anybody who can't see that is guilty of willful pessimism and ought to be banned from this site.

[Johnny Verdun]

And by the way, do you actually think that Savard ever had long-term plans for Robidas, Bouillon, Van Allen, and Berezin?  Go get more guys like Bulis? I'm with you.  Do you think Savage and Rucinsky, with the time remaining on their contracts measured in days, would get you a player of Bulis' calibre and upside? A player we had to giveup Linden (not a pending UFA) for last year?  Trade Savage for Bradley!  Trade Rucinsky for Bartecko.  Get real.  He's trying to get us in the playoffs.  This isn't a rotisserie league where you can just dump for a year or two.  This is Montreal after 5 years of Houle!