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Post by Doc Holliday on Mar 19, 2002 20:12:17 GMT -5
Stéphane Fiset?
If Savard wanted a backup goalie, Trevor Kidd was available for nothing off waivers all week long and he's making less then Fiset... As for the insurance factor, Stéphane did not play a single NHL game this year. He was playing in the same league that Garon played in, couldn't even hang on to a starter spot at that level and Garon maintained superior stats then Fiset there (921 vs 902 and 2.63 vs 3.13).
Bill Lindsay?
The guy is NOT an enforcer, not by any stretch of the immagination. He's a 4th line journeymen. Why get him when you have Darby and Poulin in the minors ?
Don't like any of these. Getting other team's crap to push/keep youngsters down our depth chart is the leitmotiv of this team.
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Post by BadCompany on Mar 19, 2002 20:54:41 GMT -5
Ah, its not that bad Doc.
Fiset is nothing, really. It gives Garon a chance to play some games for the Cits, and as le gaspesien pointed out, Cits ownership wasn't all that pleased to see their star player sitting on the bench in Montreal while they, being the Cits, watch the Calder Cup slip away. I doubt Fiset plays at all, and certainly not more than one or two games. His contract runs until next year, but at the club's option, so if they don't want him, they simply let him walk as a UFA. No biggie. The draft pick is probably conditional on whether or not the Habs pick up that option, and I can't see it being much more than a 6th, and probably closer to the 8th Andreas Dackell came over for.
You're right in that Lindsay is not an enforcer, but he is an energy player. 180+ hits in limited ice time. That's 40 more than our "big hitter" Chad Kilger, and close to 100 more than Stephane Quintal. He's a veteran Arron Asham, so to speak. Can't hurt us, doesn't cost us anything but a minor salary, and who knows? If he can bring some life and energy to a listless Habs lineup, it will certainly be worth it. He ain't gonna score 20 goals, and he isn't going to beat up Peter Worrell tomorrow night, but if he can throw a hit or three, show a little spark and maybe motivate a player or two, what's the big deal? He's got more life than either Poulin or Darby afterall.
Sure, they aren't big moves, but we have already made those big moves, with the Audette and Berezin acquisitions. There are only so many trades you can make in a year. Personally, I wasn't expecting Andre Savard to do anything, and here he is picking up two players for essentially nothing. Where's the harm? They are both cheap (most of Fiset's salary is paid for), Montreal isn't on the hook for them long term, and they won't be taking away anybody's spot. Well, maybe Asham or Hossa, but only for the last 15 or so games. Or until Audette and Koivu come back.
I think they were good pick ups, in that they can only help. Why the bitterness?
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Post by The New Guy on Mar 19, 2002 21:06:35 GMT -5
Some people are never satisified...
Seriously though Dis, I think you suffer from a negativity complex. Last season it was that Petrov was getting more ice time than Rucinsky. Now it's that Ribs got sent down to Quebec (and while it'd be great for the kid to get some NHL ice time he doesn't have the speed to use his tools at the NHL level). We aquire someone to (hopefully) replace Odjick, who you've been complaining about, and you complain that he's just some other team's cast offs.
Tell me Doc, who exactly do you think Savard is? Good old J.C.? Think he can turn the water left by years of Houle mismangement into Wine? It just doesn't happen, period. Not in a year and a half. Not with what he's been left.
I've heard people say they'd like the team to go in the direction the Coyotes have gone. Great, wonderful idea - tell me who we have that could net anything prospect wise later than a 3rd round pick? Savage? Don't think so. Rucinski? We were lucky to get Audette for him (and contrary to popular belief, we wouldn't have gotten Malhotra for him because of conference lines). Weinrich? Nah - we might've gotten more than Traverse... but nothing tremendous by any stretch.
Tell me what we had to offer with for what you're expecting? Our castoffs? Oh - hold on - lets spoon feed our trash to some other team. Or maybe you expected Kaspar. Lets offer say... Hossa & Rivet for Kaspar & a 2nd Rounder. That's about what it would've cost. And lose him at the end of the season. As for Free Agents - you can't force people to come here - and I think we did pretty good all things considered.
I don't mind that you complain Doc, but pick something to complain about. And stop expecting miracles. You have to pick something you want. You want to get good free agents -you've got to make the playoffs. You want to get better slowly - then forget about the playoffs, free agents and making trades that don't involve taking from other peoples trash.
It's that simple. There's no way Montreal is suddenly going to magically become a number one team in the blink of an eye. Right now Savard is working with limited resources, a bad dollar, and a team that was essentially trashed by an idiot who finished his horrible reign less than two years ago. And you know what? The team he's built is in eigth place. Eigth place. Do you remember how long ago it was that we were this high in the standings this late in the season?
It's been awhile.
It's time to start remembering where we were this time last year, and two years ago, and three years ago. It's time to start remembering.
Later
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Post by Doc Holliday on Mar 19, 2002 22:11:28 GMT -5
Why the bitterness... Good question. Am I bitter? I think I am. I'm juggling with a handle change to "A very disgruntled Doc Holliday" !!! But DIS might want copyright money and stuff... Where do I start... I told you why I don't like the acquisitions of Fiset and Lindsay. Sure they don't cost nothing, but the waiver wire is continually filled with cost nothing players so I am not about to do the wave because we picked someone there at the trade deadline. I'll start with Kasparytis which was the real deal we wanted to make. The real thing, something that everyone would have looked at and go "…Wow, the HABS really addressed some serious needs there and got a jump start into the playoffs…". But once again, Savard jumped short. I know, I know you're gonna tell me, "but Doc, he tried and what can you do, we didn't have a Nieminen to spare…" sure. Like Turgeon, Hull and Lapointe that couldn't be convinced to join. Like the Yashin or Reichel deal we couldn't make. Like Lecavalier and Kovalchuck that were untouchables. All good reasons, that we hear after the trades don't happen why it wasn't possible for the HABS to move. So what's left? Apparently, the only time we can acquire a player here is when nobody wants them. We couldn't offload Hackett, didn't address serious defensive problems nor an obvious lack of size on our first 3 lines. Maybe next year. Then there's the youth factor. Again when the year is over what player can we say we really invested in to either get good trade value or carve a niche in the big team? Ribeiro and Garon who'll finish the year in the AHL? Hossa who might see a dozen games? Asham? Markov with who we played yoyo with all year long? Really nobody. I don't buy in the theory that there was only crap in Quebec, nor do I buy the theory that it's so much better for our prospects to play in Quebec until they can prove to have an immediate impact on the team. When all is said and done we just chose to ignore player development and keep filling spots with the Simpson, Van Allen, Lindsay, Whiteall, Traverse, Odjick of this world. Maybe next year Then there is the total mismatch between what the coach does and what the GM does. While Therrien wants to play a defensive trap, Savard puts/keeps in the system Perreault, Berezin, Audette, Gilmour, Zednik, Bulis, Petrov. Again we might say, "..yeah but Therrien is just a bad coach…". Well if he is, then why did he get that extension, if he isn't, then why is he getting players that don't fit his system? But then again maybe Jacques Martin will become available and we'll pick him up? Maybe next year. We'll probably make the playoffs this year for one reason only, Theodore's stellar play. If making the playoffs is all we care about, then Theo got us there, thank you. It's not the 2 dozens of players that Savard moved in 18 months. I know Rome wasn't built in one day and the future could be wonderful, but I'm just not impress with what I see right now. Maybe next year I'll be, so I'll do my praising then. |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Mar 19, 2002 22:24:06 GMT -5
It's time to start remembering where we were this time last year, and two years ago, and three years ago. It's time to start remembering. Well maybe, it's time you start remembering. 2 years ago we were right in the middle of a playoff race and finished 1 point short. HABS were the best team of the second half and THE best defensive team in the league. Players were playing their heart out to get in, not just laying back waiting for their goalie to steal each and every game. Of course Foule couldn't build on that the year after and the rest is history. |
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Post by The New Guy on Mar 19, 2002 22:54:06 GMT -5
BullSaperlipopette Doc. Plain and simple.
I said remember because I wanted you to remember what Savard is working with. Yeah - we came close tow years ago. But we NEVER EVER had control this late in the season. Never. It's always been someone elses to drop, and now it's ours... I dunno. That means something to me...
As for your "Why didn't we go out and get Turgeon/Hull/Lapointe". Simple answer. They didn't want to. We offered what we could afford and we were either outbid OR they simply didn't come here. We'll never know - but I'd suspect it was a little of both. You complain about how we didn't get Kaspar. Fine. Like I said, would you be willing to give up Hossa and Rivet for a couple weeks of Kaspar? I'll come out and say I wouldn't. Why because we're rebuilding.
Maybe you forgot that. We're working for the future and we want to develop our youth. Yeah - you complained about how we're not giving our youth a chance blah blah blah - but then you'd turn around and trade our best prospects away for for six weeks of a guy.
You talk a good line, but you want it both ways. Youth, major D-day pick ups. It just doesn't work like that. You want to pick up some good FA's, but then think we should forget about playing experience for mistake prone youth ALL the time.
Face it Doc. Savard doesn't have the use of the jedi mind trick. He's not going to really swindle anyone. He doesn't have the money to make things work like that.
You have to start making some choices in what you support Doc if you want to be reasonable.
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Post by Bobs_HABit on Mar 20, 2002 0:42:49 GMT -5
TNG, I agree with Doc 100%. I think that it's you that want it both ways. What some of us naysayers are saying is that either build with youth or make a run, don't sit in the middle. Don't tell me you tried to make better deals then parade out two questionable NHLer's at this stage in their career and tell me we've improved. I didn't read anywhere in Doc's post where he wanted Kasper at all costs, he just stated that this staff always seems to be a little short when acquiring players which they seem to be leaning on. How long are you prepared to allow Savard that crutch? 1 more season, 2 more??? I'm reading a lot of comments about today's pickups and personally I think they're both terrible moves. We hear all this talk about money, yet we added $3.3 million to the payroll and Fiset won't play a minute and Lindsay will play roughly 120 minutes and will contribute 1 point and 30 pim's. These two pieces of deadwood are 1/3 the cost of Bure for the final 13 games whom we could have had for an extra pick plus 2 of our d-men and a trip to the postseason would have more than covered Pavel's cost for the rest of the season. If you were worried about Pavel's salary beyond this year then you trade him at the draft to a team that is desperate after failing in this spring's playoffs or an expansion team who now needs a star, I guarantee at the worst you get your picks back. Just a quick look at each move through my demented mind  ... You're basically trading Fiset for Garon on the roster Ya, send Garon down to QC he's getting stagnant so now Tarasov won't see the ice for the rest of the season. Makes very little sense to me. Why not just switch positions with the two goalies every two weeks. Heaven forbid Theo gets hurt but don't you think Garon will be our starter, I hope so. I've always liked Fiset but at this stage in his career he's holding on by a thread. People questioned giving Hackett even one start, a month ago now you're ready to give Fiset a few. You're trading Lindsay for Asham (I'm guessing he loses ice time) and for sure you can forget about seeing Ward maybe ever again in a Hab uniform. Sure he's only making 600,000 but we have two versions of him right in our own depth charts and they're younger with upside. People expect Lindsay to hit and I, for one am anxious to finally see if it's under coaches orders that we don't hit. Look, one thing is for sure we all want the team to get back to the promised land and a trip to the postseason this year would be a nice step. There is just some disagreement about the way we are getting there and I think Doc, myself and a few others can't help but wonder if we are no better off than 2 or 3 seasons ago. If I can I'll put words in Doc's mouth and say we all hope we're wrong. |
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Post by Yeti on Mar 20, 2002 6:41:44 GMT -5
Well, I don't think Savard is pretending he did something major yesterday. If you read La Presse today, Carbo is annoyed by the fact that the habs play with not enough desperation and energy, or we show only flashes of it. Our young players are not consistent and that's perfectly normal, they pretty much all have the same problem. Enter Lindsay, known as an energy guy, a la Trent McCleary. With 13 games remaining, Savard is looking at anything that could give us a little edge.
As for Fiset, if Theo is healthy, Stephane will not play one minute of hockey and the habs won't pick up the option. Garon can lead the Citadelles to the Calder cup and I heard yesterday habs and cits have to renew their contract/association and that the relationship wasn't great recently...
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Post by Boston_Habs on Mar 20, 2002 9:52:19 GMT -5
It does annoy me when I hear "... we tried to get Kasparaitis, Lapointe, Turgeon, Hull, BUT...". Like Savard is trying to look busy or something. I doubt we were anywhere near acquiring Kasparaitis, although AS might want you to think differently.
I have no problem with the acquisitions, and I think Bill Lindsay could add a boost of energy and "grit", especially to the Perreault/Berezin line. If it helps this year's playoff run without sacrificing the long term, then I'm OK. Guys like Darby and Poulin aren't the future, and I would rather have Lindsay on the ice than those two anyway.
The grace period ends after the season, whether that's early April or late April (after a 1st round exit). With Koivu and Audette coming back, Savard needs to figure out what he's going to do with all these smurfs, and even if he has to overpay substantially, he MUST bring in a front line offensive talent next year (read Bobby Holik).
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Post by Doc Holliday on Mar 20, 2002 10:32:09 GMT -5
Bullnuts Doc. Plain and simple. <br> I would respond to this post, but I won't because you dropped the level of this conversation below the board's standard of respect and politeness. <br> |
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Post by Gord on Mar 20, 2002 10:59:44 GMT -5
It's wildly inaccurate to say that the Habs picked up $3.3 million in salary. There are 13 games left, they only have to pay those players for the remaining games they are on Montreal's roster. That means Fiset costs us about $412K for the rest of the year, and Lindsay costs us $95K.
Stephane Fiset has a club option for next year at $2.7 million, which Savard will obviously not excercise. Trevor Kidd, however, is signed through next year, meaning we would have been obliged to keep him. So, there's for answer for why Savard didn't pluck Kidd off of waivers.
Now, when this year is finished, Fiset can be let go for nothing (we may even get a compensatory pick out of it from the league!), and Lindsay stays around for the last year of his contract at an affordable $600K.
Two low-cost additions to the team, just for insurance, one of whom has more hits than our biggest hitter, by a wide margin. No blockbusters, obviously, but the team is no worse off and still has all their draft picks and prospects intact, essential for a team in rebuilding mode.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Mar 20, 2002 11:19:13 GMT -5
Well Gord,
Why, if we wanted to grab a backup goalie, didn't we pick Kidd for nothing on the waiver wire? Fiset did not play a single NHL game this year and was even struggling in the AHL...
If Lindsey means no more Odjick or no more Van Allen then OK. But I'm afraid he'll mean no more Asham and/or Hossa and that bugs me. Why not tryout Ward?
These deals are minors and will obviously have minor impact but I just can't help feeling odd about them.
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Post by Bobs_HABit on Mar 20, 2002 11:20:58 GMT -5
Yes, I said $3.3 million but only in the context that people were saying Bure would cost us $10 million. I was just trying to get across that these two marginal at best players cost us 1/3 of what Bure would have. Regardless whether you like Bure or not, people around the league would have been buzzing about the Habs making a real run at a playoff spot.
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Post by Gord on Mar 20, 2002 11:33:10 GMT -5
Both of your questions have already been answered. We didn't acquite Kidd because we would have been on the hook for his salary next year as well, whereas Fiset will leave the team as an UFA at the end of this season. This is a short-term insurance policy that costs us nothing now, and nothing in the long-term. If we had acquired Kidd, we would have him, Hackett and Theodore on the payroll for next year. Yuck.
As for Bure costing $10 million.. He does. He's signed for two more years at $10 million, and an optional 3rd at $11. Fiset leaves July 1st for destinations unknown, and frankly, un-cared about.
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Post by clear observer on Mar 20, 2002 11:53:38 GMT -5
TNG...
...starting a debate with an exclamatory (for lack of a better word) such as the one you used is not common-place around here. You've been a long-time member of this community (we've been very greatful for this), and as such, Doc, myself and the other Mods would expect more from you. I realize that emotions can sometimes get the better of us, especially regarding our beloved Habs during a roller-coaster-type season that they're giving us, but we need to sometimes step back and consider how our words, written or spoken, can effect others.
Take care,
CO
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Post by Ryan on Mar 20, 2002 12:56:57 GMT -5
I'm not sure where I stand on all of this.
Personally the Fiset pick-up doesn't bother me. Garon wasn't going to see any icetime here anyways, he might as well be involved in the playoffs in the minors at this stage in his career. Fiset will cost nothing for the last 13 games or whatever, and he'll be gone in the offseason.
Lindsay I like as a player. Like Doc I hope he doesn't come into the lineup at the expense of Hossa, or Asham. If he takes the place of Odjick or Van Allen I feel we've improved. A 4th line of Kilger in between Lindsay and Asham is pretty appealing to me.
I hope next year we work on getting some more youth into the line-up instead of the stop-gaps like Berezin. I would complain about Perreault, Gilmour, Juneau, and Petrov, but really they've been our best players this year.
I'm a big believer in working from the goalie out. Obviously we're set in goal, and I think Dykhuis, Brisebois, Rivet, Markov, and Hainsey should all be regulars next year. Then you've got Souray and Quintal to rotate until Komi is ready in a year or two. Up front we've got some good young talent on the roster (Bulis, Zednik) and more to come (Hossa, Balej). This year's draft I'm sure will address the need for size upfront, as well as trades or signings.
All said I like what I see happening here, but I start to worry when the kids sit in favour of the vets. We've got nothing to lose right now, might as well let them get in experience now while mistakes can be made.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Mar 20, 2002 13:44:22 GMT -5
Why so bitter???
I understand, 'cause I'm bitter too. Not necessarily at Savard who is doing a credible job in the face of unreasonable expectations;
not at Houle who did his best but destroyed the team in the process;
somewhat at Serge Savard who did a poor job but had much more to work with than his namesake Andre (and did win 2 cups);
At Molson's because they are selling out Montreal in order to be more appealing to the rest of Canada as a non-french purveyor of beer and were willing to find an American to sell/give the team to;
at the province of Quebec who drove out the business HQ's that are now buying seasons tickets and luxury boxes in Toronto;
at the Canadian dollar that makes it impossible to compete with US teams who sell tickets for $100US apiece;
at the City of Montreal that saddles the Hab's with an unreasonable property tax;
at the slow pace of rebuilding and the way the team is getting older and smaller.
All of our goals are coming from players in the twilight of their careers and won't be around for the three year plan. Our size is dropping, our skill level is dropping, our future is less bright than Atlanta, Tampa Bay of Nashville. We don't need anymore journeymen defensemen or goaltenders. We need some young stars.
I'm bitter too!
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Post by habmeister on Mar 20, 2002 14:58:37 GMT -5
You guys are cracking me up with your passion. Did you think that maybe Kidd didn't want to go to montreal? you never know in this day and age what players do. The reason fiset was picked up was to help out the Citadelles. Savard is a builder, who realizes that the Cits winning the Calder cup will breed WINNERS!!
Doesn't anyone want our farm team to win the calder cup? It will have a huge confidence boost effect on all of the players on that team and i'll bet will make next years camp even more competitive.
As far as Lindsay goes, i crack up at the whining about picking him up from some of y'all. On the one hand i read post after post about how we lack grit and toughness and then we pick up a great 4th line player who is known league wide as being one of the hardest working grinders in the nhl.
Don't guys like this do realllllllllly well in the playoffs? This guy is someone who steps up in the playoffs and harasses the jagr's, sundin's of this world and all of a sudden you'll be talking about what a great pickup lindsay is.
Did any team that wasn't salary dumping or taking on a huge salary make any tremendous trades? Yes 1, but there was only one kasparitis available.
How would you feel if we picked up adam oates for the price that clarke paid!?? Lunacy!!
You can't turn this team into cup contenders overnight. But if we make the playoffs, steal a round or two with grit and theo and the cits win the calder, then we'll all be happy all summer long won't we?
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Post by MPLABBE on Mar 20, 2002 15:51:05 GMT -5
Stéphane Fiset? <br>If Savard wanted a backup goalie, Trevor Kidd was available for nothing off waivers all week long and he's making less then Fiset... As for the insurance factor, Stéphane did not play a single NHL game this year. He was playing in the same league that Garon played in, couldn't even hang on to a starter spot at that level and Garon maintained superior stats then Fiset there (921 vs 902 and 2.63 vs 3.13). quote] Actually, Kidd makes 2.8 million and next year he will make 3 million if the team that acquires him gives him a Q offer.Way too much for a backup goalie.Fiset will be gone or in the minors next year, since his contract ends this year and it's a team option at 2.7 million for next year. Basically, we didn't get much, but we gave up nothing. |
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Post by MPLABBE on Mar 20, 2002 16:00:39 GMT -5
I'm not sure where I stand on all of this. I hope next year we work on getting some more youth into the line-up instead of the stop-gaps like Berezin. I would complain about Perreault, Gilmour, Juneau, and Petrov, but really they've been our best players this year. I'm a big believer in working from the goalie out. Obviously we're set in goal, and I think Dykhuis, Brisebois, Rivet, Markov, and Hainsey should all be regulars next year. Then you've got Souray and Quintal to rotate until Komi is ready in a year or two. Up front we've got some good young talent on the roster (Bulis, Zednik) and more to come (Hossa, Balej). This year's draft I'm sure will address the need for size upfront, as well as trades or signings. All said I like what I see happening here, but I start to worry when the kids sit in favour of the vets. We've got nothing to lose right now, might as well let them get in experience now while mistakes can be made. I agree...I will be so pissed if we re-sign Berezin at 3 million next year.Give the ice time to Hossa.With Koivu and Audette coming back, we can put together 2 solid lines withouth Berezin. I also think we should build from the goal out.Hainsey and Markov HAVE to be regulars on this team next year.We need some offence from the back end and I am convinced Hainsey will be a hell of alot better than Quintal who the MTL french media seems to love right now or Souray who wants no part of physical play.Zednik is showing he can be a good 20-25-30 goal scorer along with 50-60 points for the next 5 years.Bulis still needs to work on his game, but he's got skill... Yesterday's pickups are not going to do anything to our long-term plan.Fiset and his salary will be gone after this year, Lindsay will probably be a cheap 4th liner or he will be waived. |
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Post by MPLABBE on Mar 20, 2002 16:05:52 GMT -5
You guys are cracking me up with your passion. Did you think that maybe Kidd didn't want to go to montreal? you never know in this day and age what players do. The reason fiset was picked up was to help out the Citadelles. Savard is a builder, who realizes that the Cits winning the Calder cup will breed WINNERS!! <br> Doesn't anyone want our farm team to win the calder cup? It will have a huge confidence boost effect on all of the players on that team and i'll bet will make next years camp even more competitive. <br> As far as Lindsay goes, i crack up at the whining about picking him up from some of y'all. On the one hand i read post after post about how we lack grit and toughness and then we pick up a great 4th line player who is known league wide as being one of the hardest working grinders in the nhl. Don't guys like this do realllllllllly well in the playoffs? This guy is someone who steps up in the playoffs and harasses the jagr's, sundin's of this world and all of a sudden you'll be talking about what a great pickup lindsay is. Did any team that wasn't salary dumping or taking on a huge salary make any tremendous trades? Yes 1, but there was only one kasparitis available. How would you feel if we picked up adam oates for the price that clarke paid!?? Lunacy!! You can't turn this team into cup contenders overnight. But if we make the playoffs, steal a round or two with grit and theo and the cits win the calder, then we'll all be happy all summer long won't we? I agree, it would be great for guys like Hainsey, Garon, Tarasov, Ribeiro, Ward and company to win the Calder Cup.Not only that, but we have taken so many players from the Cits the last 2 years, it's time we pay them back. As I said before...we gave up nothing to get not much, relax folks.Lindsay will only take the spot of Odjick or Van Alllen.And if Asham is the guy who pays the price, good.Asham has good games(like against Toronto) but he thinks he can play and shouldn't be a little pest in all the other ones.He needs to learn a lesson once and a while. |
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Post by The New Guy on Mar 20, 2002 16:18:01 GMT -5
First off, I apologize to Doc. I didn't mean to offend him, and the comment wasn't directed at him - but more at his arguement - which was IMHO circular in it's logic. I don't know why I chose the words I did - but they weren't meant as an attack on Doc's person. Merely an attack on what he's said.
That said - I stand by my evaluation that his, and a lot of people expectations of Savard have all of a sudden become unreasonable. He wonders why we can't get something for nothing. I hate that. No way is any team in the league going to give us what we want - but that's what Doc and several others seem to expect. "Why didn't we get Kasper". First off - Pittsburgh is in our own conference, so that makes it harder. Secondly Pittsburgh got a 6th D-man and a solid prospect forward in return. I asked him if he'd be willing to give up Hossa and Rivet for him. Seriously - what did you all expect Andre to do? Stand on his head and make players fall into his lap.
You cry Kidd instead of Fiset - noting that at the end of the year we can drop Fiset if we don't want him. Kidd? We'd be stuck paying his salary for another year.
Trust me - Savard's not trying to run this team both ways. He trying to get this team into the playoffs without morgating our future. Maybe we should have traded Komisarek yesterday and picked up a bigger name player. Or maybe hell will freeze over and people will all of a sudden start wanting to come to Canada to play because our dollars NOT worth less than an American quarter.
We could of course, clean house and start putting guys like Odjick on waivers and strat stripping down the Cit's, but if you think that's wise - then you're wrong. Rushing players is NEVER, EVER a good idea. Few of the players in QC have all the tools to play in the big leagues - Ribs is to slow and not defensive enough to play his natural centre, Hainsey needs another years seasoning to work on his defensive game, Hossa is good enough, and certainly has the drive - but then again he's called up isn't he. Everyone on that team has something they need to work on. Which is exactly why we have a farm team. To develop our prospects.
So maybe my last post wasn't as appropriate as you'd like Doc, and maybe I'm not very couth at times - but that's just me. I've already apologized for offending you, but I ask you - what do you want. Plain and simple. If we're going to argue about this then I think it's only fair that both of us know what you think Savard should be doing - since all I can see you suggesting are moves like Carolina's whole Barasso ordeal. Things that wouldn't really put us ahead - but might look nice on paper.
Trading for the sake of trading I think it's called.
Later
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Post by MPLABBE on Mar 20, 2002 16:45:15 GMT -5
TNG, I agree with most of your post...except, Odjick has to go.He is brutal, doesn't do his role and is a distraction.
Also, Hainsey doesn't need another year in the minors to work on his defensive game.Last time I check he was something like + 12 in QC.+ and - can be a weird stat, but it's telling.
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Post by The New Guy on Mar 20, 2002 16:51:47 GMT -5
I didn't say Odjick didn't have to go - and quite frankly I've made it clear elsewhere on the board that I hope this is just what Lindsay does - but we also need a tough-guy and right now, besides Ashram, we've no one to fill that role. Granted Odjick doesn't exactly fill it but he's better than nothing.
As for Hainsey - I know his numbers are good in the AHL, but very few defenceman can break in early in their careers and live up to the hype. And boy does Hainsey ever have hype. Coming out the nose, mouth and other place best left unmentioned. Give him until the end of the season, and then maybe next fall we'll see him in the lineup. D-men have a REALLY, REALLY brutally slow burn sometimes. And it's best not to push them.
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Post by BadCompany on Mar 20, 2002 17:15:29 GMT -5
I didn't say Odjick didn't have to go - and quite frankly I've made it clear elsewhere on the board that I hope this is just what Lindsay does - but we also need a tough-guy and right now, besides Ashram, we've no one to fill that role. Granted Odjick doesn't exactly fill it but he's better than nothing. <br> As for Hainsey - I know his numbers are good in the AHL, but very few defenceman can break in early in their careers and live up to the hype. And boy does Hainsey ever have hype. Coming out the nose, mouth and other place best left unmentioned. Give him until the end of the season, and then maybe next fall we'll see him in the lineup. D-men have a REALLY, REALLY brutally slow burn sometimes. And it's best not to push them. While I have been one of the bigger Hainsey supporters around, you are absolutely right when you say that we shouldn't expect much from him next year. Just getting and keeping a spot in the top 6, or even top 7, should be considered quite an accomplishment. There is a reason why defenceman never win Rookie-of-the-Year honours, and its because it is an extremely difficult position to learn at the NHL level. Look at how long it took Chris Pronger to become a dominant defenceman. Look at the roller coaster ride Andrei Markov has been on. Hainsey will be a good one, I am convinced of that. But it will take time, and not a couple of monthes of time either. Years. I have said it before, and I will say it again, realistically, we are looking at a good 5 years before Hainsey starts making a significant, dominant impact on the team. If he does it before then, then great, whoo-hoo for us. But I wouldn't hold my breathe waiting for it to happen. For that reason, we have to be very, very careful when talking about dealing away guys like Rivet and Souray. If Hainsey falters - and lots of young defencemen do, if only briefly - we could be up that proverbial waterway with no visible means of propulsion, if you know what I am saying. |
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Post by GNick on Mar 20, 2002 19:01:06 GMT -5
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Post by MPLABBE on Mar 20, 2002 19:38:13 GMT -5
TNG and BC, I agree...we should break the kid in slowly, but I really don't think he should go back to the AHL next year.
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Post by habwest on Mar 21, 2002 1:53:42 GMT -5
The topics been pretty well thrashed about and the opinions aired out. Only one comment. Someone said that it was Savard that wanted it both ways, making the playoffs and rebuilding at the same time. That is true but I don't see that he has much choice:
-the owner and the fans want to be in the playoffs; missing for 4 years in a row would be a record so the pressure must be tremendous.
-yet the team's obviously not good enough that getting one or two players would give them a real chance at the cup so selling off the young talent and draft picks to do so would only ensure ongoing mediocrity for no lasting benefit.
Hence the balancing act. I think that Savard's aim is pretty clear. Namely to rebuild the team and hang onto its future while making some kind of realistic run at the playoffs. Given Koivu is out I think that he has done a pretty fair job of that.
I do agree with the point that Savard and Therrien don't always appear to be in synch. I'll repeat myself and say again that I think Therrien is seen by Savard as only an interim solution to handle a mostly veteran team, someone who initially wasn't his pick. Having Therrien on hand also buys Savard more time for rebuilding, ie if he should fire him during or after next season then the new coach will naturally be accorded a period of grace, so to speak.
I'm with Bad Co in saying that it's going to take some time for Savard's plans to evolve. My guess is that in 2 or 3 seasons we'll begin to see how the team he really wants, players and coaches, shapes up. Until then he will need to continue to ice a "competitive" team by any means that he can short of mortaging the future- bailing wire and duct tape. So far I think that he's done quite well. Not a genius or anyting like that but not bad for a rookie.
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Post by Pam on Mar 21, 2002 2:15:02 GMT -5
Bill Lindsay? <br>The guy is NOT an enforcer, not by any stretch of the immagination. He's a 4th line journeymen. Why get him when you have Darby and Poulin in the minors ? Don't like any of these. Getting other team's crap to push/keep youngsters down our depth chart is the leitmotiv of this team. Doc, if it will make you feel any better, I agree with you about Lindsay. Unless Lindsay has changed drastically since his short stay in San Jose all of you will be very disappointed in him. As for Fiset, well I'm not sure about him. Since he wasn't in the NHL at all this season I'm not sure he was a wise choice for a backup goalie. Kidd isn't that good either, but since he has been in the NHL this season, I think he would have been a better choice. But then what do I know anyway. I'm one of the few that didn't like Barrasso being picked up by Toronto. |
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Mar 21, 2002 14:15:03 GMT -5
Our problem is that our best prospects are not in the NHL (many of our supposed best prospects are not even in the AHL). Our best players (producers) on the team are all over 30. They are the best Savard could get without trading away the future, (small and old). Perrault, Berezin, Audette, Gilmour; they've played for a total of 28 other teams between them and their best years are behind them. If we hope to contend against Atlanta in 3 years, Gilmour won't be much help covering Kovalchouk for 24 mins. per game. If winning the Calder Cup is the answer, we have the right guys in Chouinard, Ward and Ribiero, they are lifetime AHL players.
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