THERRIEN, THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY

[clear observer]

I would like to open a discussion on Michel Therrien as coach of our beloved Habs.

I would start off, but I would not do the thread any justice. I am very busy lately working on some surprises.

Soooo, let us open the discussion with an assessment of the job he has done so far.

The Good?
The Bad?
The Ugly?
What Grade do you give him?
Replace him? With who? Why?


Any takers?

[MPLABBE]

I will glady participate in this debate


The Good:Doesn't play the stiffling defensive style Vigneault did,seems to be very emotional on the bench,plays youngsters with decent players.Has been able to keep the team motivated.


The Bad:when Habs have a lead,too much sitting back.Habs can't play the style a team like Dallas plays,they can't just shut down the center of the ice with big bodies.


The Ugly:(this will be long)the whole goaltending fiasco,scratching Markov and play Traverse or Robidas instead,sitting back in OT,having your 3rd line center and 7th d-man manning the points on your 1st PP unit,naming those 4 regular d-man like he did in December,scratching Aaron Asham and putting a center like Perreault on the wing for a few games.



Grade:5 on 10


Replace him if we miss the playoffs by 1-2 points.

[Forum Ghost]

 I think Therrien is just being kept on while Savard moulds the team to how he wants it to be.  Therrien seems like he's still just happy to be coaching in the big leagues.  Savard seems to not only have authority over player personnel but also on how this team should play and who should play at what position.  (eg. sending Gratton to the Cits, promising Gilmour that he would play centre).  If Savard were to hire an experienced NHL coach he would not be able to meddle in what are usually coach's decisions.  It's also obvious that they don't share the same philosophy on the style of the team.  Therrien likes the toughness, while Savard prefers speed and skating ability.  
 Personally, I don't think Therrien should be coaching the Habs long term.  He's been doing a pretty good job this year, but I would also give most of the credit to Carbo and Green.

I have to agree with a lot of MPLABBE's points on the GOOD, BAD, and UGLY.

GOOD:  Ability to motivate team and make them play bigger than they really are.

BAD:  I think he's overusing Theo.  I was really surprised that Hackett didn't dress for the San Jose game.  I think that Hackett, if given the opportunity can play at the same level he was at, during the beginning of the season.  He played great in the tie against the Canes, and Therrien pulled him after only two goals against the Panthers.  He almost carried us into the playoffs two years ago, what's so different now?
Also if we do get into the playoffs, there's the possibility that Theo would be burned out.

UGLY:  Like MPLABBE said, the fact that the Habs aren't holding leads like they used to really bothers me.  In AV's days going into the third period with a lead would have a high probability for ending up with a win.  This year, I have to keep checking the ticker right up until the it says "final".  

Overall, Therrien hasn't done bad with what he's had but Habs fans including myself aren't entirely sold on him.  If he is replaced I wouldn't mind seeing Larry Robinson behind the bench.  One reason would be because he would teach the players young and old, what it means to wear the jersey.  And second, would be that I think he works well with young players and would be a good fit with our team because of his coaching style.

[Bobs_HABit]

Good topic, CO.

The good:He's not Alain Vigneault.

The bad & the ugly:Where to start...He hasn't outcoached anyone but he has been outcoached. Certain players (vets) can make mistake after mistake yet kids (our future) get yanked around every single game. I really don't think he knows what he's doing out there. If there's a controversal call against us I don't see him up on the bench raising a fuss. He just stands there all stoic. As mentioned in a previous post (how did I ever guess we would go to overtime last night) his overtime philosophy is terrible. We get up a goal or two and it's defense, defense, defense.
He spends the entire game matching lines (I hate coaches who do this). Send your best players over the boards, make the other team adjust to you. Juneau and Dackell have been great this year but they are getting way too much ice time when we are trailing games.
He actually put together a true 4th line (the Habs first in many, many seasons) of Asham, Kilger and Odjick. They were hitting and actually creating chances but Van Allen is now getting time in Asham's spot.
Have we started even one game this season where we take it to the opposing team on the first shift. Better yet, almost every time we score, the following shift our opponent either scores or gets a great chance. It's like clockwork and I'm sorry but that is coaching. Does he know what a timeout is? There have probably been 4 or 5 times this season where we could have used a timeout to get focused especially that Edmonton fiasco.
Last night Markov had less minutes than any other d-man while Robidas (I may be -19 but I've got pictures of MT) had the most. Explain that to me please. We were trailing the entire game but for the first 3 minutes. Markov should have had the most minutes just based on us needing to score. All 6 of our d-men were terrible last night at puck control but until the overtime winner Markov was +2. And this experiment with Robidas on the powerplay is ridiculus. We have lots of playmakers we could put out there instead and bring a big body like Kilger in to play forward.
Poor Asham, he's been playing the best hockey of his career but now he's had to sit 3 of the last 4 games. He has 4 goals and 4 assists in 21 games but he's only playing 9:52 a game. Bulis comes back into the lineup and he's playing his best hockey this season yet last night he gets only 11 minutes. Give this kid some power play time.
Last but not least, take the best faceoff man in the league over the past 3 seasons and play him on the wing.
Man, I'm getting madder just thinking about all this.

Grade: D. The only reason it's not F is because we are above .500. Reminder though, I think any other coach in the NHL currently would have us in a better position.

Relace him? Unfortuantely I believe we are too late in the season to do anything now but I believe he's earned his ticket out of town. Who to take his place? Well, to be honest, I don't know. I just know I don't want a first time NHL head coach. Tremblay, Vigneault, Therien all 1st timers. Please, give me someone with experience at this level. I realize this means no to Carbo but I think it's too hard for first timers. I would like Ted Nolan but he's probably not bi-lingual.

[MPLABBE]

Forum_Ghost said:

 <br>
BAD:  I think he's overusing Theo.  I was really surprised that Hackett didn't dress for the San Jose game.  I think that Hackett, if given the opportunity can play at the same level he was at, during the beginning of the season.  He played great in the tie against the Canes, and Therrien pulled him after only two goals against the Panthers.  He almost carried us into the playoffs two years ago, what's so different now?
Also if we do get into the playoffs, there's the possibility that Theo would be burned out.

UGLY:  Like MPLABBE said, the fact that the Habs aren't holding leads like they used to really bothers me.  In AV's days going into the third period with a lead would have a high probability for ending up with a win.  This year, I have to keep checking the ticker right up until the it says "final".  <br>
Overall, Therrien hasn't done bad with what he's had but Habs fans including myself aren't entirely sold on him.  If he is replaced I wouldn't mind seeing Larry Robinson behind the bench.  One reason would be because he would teach the players young and old, what it means to wear the jersey.  And second, would be that I think he works well with young players and would be a good fit with our team because of his coaching style.

He is overusing Theo?? come on,plenty of #1 goalies have made more starts than Theo this year.After Hackett's start in FLA,Hackett had started something like 7 out of the last 21 games(after the FLA game).Which is a third of the work.Wich means about 25-30 games in a full schedule.As for your question on Hackett,simple:he has been injured so much,he has lost that split second that can make a goalie look great or very bad.You can see his reflexes aren't sharp and they may never be again.I think you can pretty much forget about Hackett returning to his 1998-99 form.


But aside from that,thanks for agreeing with me  

[MPLABBE]

Bobs Habit,I agree with everything you said.The fact we NEVER,EVER,EVER come out like the Bruins came out last night is just frustrating.Why do we always wait for Theo to make about 10 big saves to come back in the game? why do we only start to play with desperation when we really need a goal?

And I also agree with the point of every time we score or almost score,it seems the other team comes back and gets a great chance.It happened last night,Berezin goal,a minute later Guerin scores.Then,we tie the game,and in the last seconds of the game,Bruins came back in our zone and almost won the game.Can we just shut the door for once?

As for Robidas on the PP...ridiculous.I know you want a Right-handed shot to replace Brisebois but please!!! if it is soooo crucial,then put Berezin on the point.It also sends a weird message to Robidas:'you weren't good enough to play in the NHL a few weeks ago,now you are good enough to QB our PP'.

[Habsolutely]

Well, the good could be described in the way he uses his veterans.. Perreault, Gilmour, Juneau, Dackell, Quintal, Brisebois, Dykhuis etc.. Those guys are a big reason why we are over ,500 in the standings.

The bad and ugly are really bad and ugly...

-Not having a clue about what to do with Jan Bulis. If it was not for André Savard suggesting Therrien to use Bulis as a winger.. I don't know where our young forward would be.

-Scratching Markov on a regular basis. That was the most frustrating thing to report about Therrien. However, Andrei Markov, as a true competitor, responded so well on the ice, that there is no more question about his big status in the team.

However, to be honest with you, I don't really try to be too serious about Michel Therrien. Because i really believe that Savard uses him to be a kind of transition during the "rebuilding process". I don't know why, but I'm sure in a close future, we could see Jacques Martin being the coach of the Canadiens. His relationship with Savard seemed to be very close and I can't see Martin coaching the Sens longer than 1-2 years down the road.

Just my take!

Welcome to HabsRus, don't be afraid, I am not in your mind  , but I do have magical powers on this board. Scary . Now remember, if anyone attacks St. Savard, we pounce like tigers on them. You take lead (and most of the punishment) and I will follow  . HA 8)

[Johnny Verdun]

Well,  MP, there's a reason we don't come out like the Bruins.  We are running a counter punching type of offence.  To do what the Bruins did to us the other night you have to have a team that is fast and physical. We may be fast (not terribly, when you consider we have Gilmour, Ribeiro and Perreault on our top two lines) but we're definitely not big or physical.   The other thing you need is a set of d-men who can find or create the space and time (and have the ability) to make that crisp first pass.  We don't really have that, and with Brisebois out and Markov not getting lots of time we definitely don't have it.  

So it really doesn't bother me that we don't run over teams early on like Boston did to us (and Vancouver and Philly earlier in the year did as well) because I don't have any reason to expect it.

As for Therrien as a coach, I find the following things worrisome:

1.  The number of bench penalties for too many men.  There's no excuse for us leading the league in this department.  That's coaching.  I don't know whether Carbonneau and/or Green are also partly to blame, but Therrien gets the lion's share in my books.

2.  The constant line-juggling when it's not forced on us by injuries.  The whole history of how he's used Asham and Kilger is a perfect example.   We lack a physical presence with some speed, but we have two guys who can give it to us.  Why we don't use them together a lot more is beyond puzzling.  Van Allen has no footspeed.  I'd rather have Kilger centering the fourth line than him any day.  If he went the way of Simpson I wouldn't mind (we have Darby in Quebec).  The way Markov
has been handled doesn't seem smart either.

3.  I agree on the Hackett thing, but it may be too late.  I didn't like the way he was yanked in Florida and I thought he should've gotten the start against San Jose.  

4.  I don't really dig coaches that punch walls.  I think the players (90% of whom are tougher than the coach by miles) probably see it as slightly goofy and embarassing.  Bowman doesn't do that stuff and Therrien doesn't need to do it either.  Yell and scream at the refs, by all means, but punching walls is not manly....

5.  Results.  Therrien has had a much better lineup than Vigneault had for most of his games.  Vigneault lost Koivu, Savage and others for long stretches and coached teams comprised of the likes of Darby, Ward, Deslisle, Landry, Shannon, Cambpell, etc.  He too had us in a playoff race, and although the Isles and Rangers weren't as good, Washington, New Jersey and Florida were a lot better.  I'm happy we are where we are, but I don't think it's a function of coaching....  

[MPLABBE]

Habsolutely said:

-Scratching Markov on a regular basis. That was the most frustrating thing to report about Therrien. However, Andrei Markov, as a true competitor, responded so well on the ice, that there is no more question about his big status in the team.

However, to be honest with you, I don't really try to be too serious about Michel Therrien. Because i really believe that Savard uses him to be a kind of transition during the "rebuilding process". I don't know why, but I'm sure in a close future, we could see Jacques Martin being the coach of the Canadiens. His relationship with Savard seemed to be very close and I can't see Martin coaching the Sens longer than 1-2 years down the road.

I wouldn't say Markov is assured of a spot,Knowing Therrien he prefers playing Traverse,Robidas,Bouillon and Souray.The only reason Markov is playing is the lack of left-handed shooting d-man.Once some of the injured guys are back,I wouldn't be surprised at all if he is sent back to Quebec.Which would be just ridiculous.


As for Martin,if the Sens lose in the 1st round again,you can bet your house he will be fired.I would love to have him here in Montreal.

[MPLABBE]

JV,I think you misunderstood my point.What I mean is why do the Habs seem to only wake up in the 2nd period?? why do they wait until the latter stages of the game to show some desperation??



I dunno why some of you wanted Hackett to start against SJ.I am going out on a limb and saying that Hackett doesn't get another start at the Keg all year.Imagine if he lets in a bad goal or two,the whole place would be booing,chanting Theo,it would be an ugly site.And on top of that,no way can we not go with the hot hand in the position we are now.

[Johnny Verdun]

Sorry. Yeah, you're right about not being sharp often enough in the first period. There have been too many games where we get outshot 10-4 in the first, or where we don't even register a shot until half way through the period. That has nothing to do with the type of team we are. That's just not getting the motor running by the time the puck drops.

[MPLABBE]

Johnny said:

Sorry. Yeah, you're right about not being sharp often enough in the first period. There have been too many games where we get outshot 10-4 in the first, or where we don't even register a shot until half way through the period. That has nothing to do with the type of team we are. That's just not getting the motor running by the time the puck drops.

I think the ONLY recent game that was different was the one in TB.That was the only one.We were terrible in Florida,mediocre to start the game in Washington,pretty bad against Ottawa and terrible against SJ and Boston.

The weird thing about it,we still find a way to collect points.Last year,if this team fell behind,they never or rarely got a point.

[Jacques_in_FL]

Good: His desire to win seems very genuine and that has proved somewhat contagious with an average roster.

Unclear: Does he want to play the young guys or no? At times yes at times no. Why would Savard be insisting that Van Allen cut into Asham's development?

Bad: The line-juggling when injuries were not the reason. Bulis was on his way to nowhere until Savard told MT to put him at LW and let him develop. And markov, why was Robidas on the left side a better option than using a young talent like markov? this makes me think green and Therrien have questionable judgements how to handle young players.

Ugly: Horrible first periods, too many men on ice penalties, suit-shirt-tie combinations.

Grade: 5 or 6, but since he's acting like a coach who is managing with a 'post season or bust' sign on his brain, then it is only normal to expect Savard will judge him on that basis.

Option: Carbo. Some may want more experience. Guy has credibility, which is hard to come by, and he's a good student of the game.

[MPLABBE]

It depends on the game situation.IF we are defending a 1 goal lead,late in the game,forget about Markov,Ribeiro,Bulis,etc.IF we are losing,and we need a big goal,forget about them also.It's really sickening because none of them are horrible defensively and all have talent to score a big goal.

[BadCompany]

The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly would make a great title for a western film, don't you think? Or a HabsRus column...

The Good:

* Fighting for a playoff spot when many figured we would be way out of it. If anybody had of said at the beginning of the year - or heck, at the beginning of December - we would still be in the thick of things after that 17 of 22 stretch, well, I think we would all be ecstatic

* The 3rd line. While obviously Andre Savard had a lot to do with putting Juneau and Dackell together, and Bulis for that matter, Therrien has kept the line more or less together and not fiddled, even though he has fiddled with everything else. When Bulis went down he was even clever enough to stick similar style players there, like Hossa.

* The penalty killing. Top half in the league, and number one at home, where they have let in a grand total of 4 powerplay goals.

* Chad Kilger on the second penalty killing unit. I love it.

* Sticking with Doug Gilmour. Its working out great now, even though we all called for some heads to roll before.

The Bad:

* The anti-Vigneault/Houle conspiracy. Any player that comes from the Vigneault or Houle camp has to be twice as good. Markov was a budding star under Vigneault, but has been replaced by Therrien's man Robidas. Asham is now a healthy scratch (why?) in favor of Van Allen. Darby is in the minors, instead of Van Allen. Reid Simpson was with the big team for WAYYYY to long, instead of Francis Belanger or Jason Ward. Ward, Descoteaux, Razin and Ryder not getting any real shots. Why does Micheal Ryder keep getting demoted to the ECHL, but Marc-Andre Thinel (he of the goaless in 30 games streak) stay. Okay, okay, this isn't Therrien's fault, but I am on a roll.

* The too many men penalties. That's just silly, and for a team so close to the edge we don't need the extra problems.

* The inability to match up or roll four lines. Other teams get their goons out for 3, 4 even 5 minutes more than we do.

* The lack of a system (though to be fair, Montreal has been playing more of a classic trap of late - not very sophisticated, and rather simplistic, but it seems like a system nonetheless).

* The slow starts. What's up with that?

* That damn practice after that Toronto game after that grueling road trip (one game after they had stunned Philadelphia, in Philadelphia). That one still bugs me.

* The refusal to allow your defenceman to hit. I am convinced it is a coaching decision. In the preseason, Sheldon Souray was hitting everything that moved, something he carried over to the first few games. As did Craig Rivet and Stephane Quinal. Heck, Quintal was fighting everything that moved at one point. Then... it all stopped. I am almost certain Green (and therefor Therrien by extension) told the troops to lay off, to avoid getting caught out of position and/or taking bad penalties.

The Ugly:

* Err, Michel Therrien himself. I have a female friend who was devasted when Alain Vigneault was fired and Therrien hired to replace him. Apparently Vigneault is a hottie, while Therrien, is not. I don't want to say he is ugly or anything, but the day after he was born his mother's obstetrician went on a drinking binge so grand that it cost him his job, his family, and the lives of three baby sparrows. He was last seen tottering over the edge of a tall building, a bottle of whiskey in one hand, an "adult relationship enhancing" product in the other, and muttering the words "miracle of birth my a**". I don't know if there is a correlation between the two events, but it is suspicious.

[MPLABBE]

You just opened a brand new can of warms with that post ;D


You have a very valuable point when it comes to players acquired or drafted by Houle.Hopefully,this doesn't continue with Hainsey and Hossa.But,it's really disturbing how certain players have been pushed aside-for no reason.

[seventeen]

Thanks Spiro, for the bread crumb trail. Just in time to get into this conversation.
The Good -   The amazing fact we're still in the playoff hunt. I believe, however, this is more a function of Theo's maturation than keen coaching. Another positive factor is the team's ability to not get discouraged and to make valiant attempts to come from behind. Somehow this team has heart, at times.

The Bad - The fact the team too often finds itself having to come from behind. Seems to take till late in the first to get the right gapping on the spark plugs. Should I repeat all the other facts mentioned by all? Nah....but all are too true. Making truly stupid excuses for losses (The other team got up for us.)

The Ugly - The sight of some plumber with his jeans halfway down his hips, bending over the sink. (What, no projectile vomiting happy face!?) Well, you guys used up the suit and tie jokes. Sorry, it's all I could come up with on short notice.

[Big_D]

The good:  I don't know, but we are currently battling for the playoffs, so that must account for something.

The bad:  Sometimes I wonder if the guy has a clue.  Honestly, he often looks puzzled.

The ugly:  Therrien himself.  Really!  I swear, just looking at him makes me wonder whether the guy has fully evolved!!!  I can picture him skating around at practice with his knuckles dragging behind him.

[MPLABBE]

seventeen said:

Thanks Spiro, for the bread crumb trail. Just in time to get into this conversation.
The Good -   The amazing fact we're still in the playoff hunt. I believe, however, this is more a function of Theo's maturation than keen coaching. Another positive factor is the team's ability to not get discouraged and to make valiant attempts to come from behind. Somehow this team has heart, at times.

How many times has Theo saved our butt this year??? there have been so many times,it's not even funny.Therrien has nothing to do with our improvement,it's all about Theodore keeping us in almost every game.

[KR]

The Good: MT shows some emotion behind the bench, unlike the seemingly valium-induced coma that AV was in. This has to rub off on the players once in a while. He doesn't mind playing the kids (another advantage over AV).

The Bad: His wardrobe

The Ugly (long list):
- sitting on leads
- playing for ties in OT
- line juggling
- his mishandling of Kilger all season
- playing Perreault on the wing
- playing guys like Juneau and Dackell on the PP
- openly expressing his satisfaction after a tie or close loss
- his inexplicable dislike of Markov
- his inexplicable fondness for Traverse
- letting Asham rot on the bench while Van Allen plays
- not threatening to handcuff Theo for overhandling the puck:)

My first choice to replace him would Robinson. After 2 years in the finals, he hasn't miraculously forgotten how to coach. He was a scapegoat in Jersey.

[seventeen]

Thanks HA.  Cute caricature.  Couldn't find Beelzebub, eh?    And just when I was about to have lunch.  Sigh.  <br>
Anything else I can fo for you?

[HFTO]

Michel Therrien hmmm.

The Good obviously is that we've made it this far and still have a chace though I fear that we could very easily lose the next three games and our outlook over the Olympic break maybe bleak the games shortly there after are no picnic either.
Though JV doesn't like the fact he punches walls I like his passion I think he really does care and if its at the expense of a few walls thats fine with me,too many players take for granted the sweater though we know only $$$$ signs count these days.

The Bad I also think we are not ready to play out of the gate,
the too many men thing is ridiculous,too many shots against and not enough for shoot the freaking puck,lack of size,the powerplay see shot the puck too much perimeter play and when we do shoot can someone hit the net!

The Ugly see too many men,can someone actually get the stat on this so we can see how outrageously bad we are,do we lead the league on 2 on 1,s 3 on 1,s 2 on 0 I like an aggressive D and lord we need help offensively but the odd amn rushes geesh.

Grade C- just for the fact we are clinging to the hope of a spot by week #2 of March we'll know for sure.

I would replace Therrien at years end unless we make the playoffs.

HFTO

[Vichab]

The Good: As we all agree the fact we are still in the race. If we're going to blame him when it falls apart we should give him some credit for what he's done with what I think is fair to say is the weakest roster of all playoff teams and certainly one of the lowest paid. I agree we have Theo to thank for our present spot. It reminds me of Ruff who I never thought much of but with Hasak he did pretty well. Now he's finding out that coaching does take some skill.

The Bad: Every now and then he makes a blatantly bone head move which makes me wonder if he gets it; ie. pulling Hack a few weeks ago after he let in two goals - we lost the game, we lost Hack's confidence, and we lost any hope of trading Hack for something in return.

The Ugly: This may be sentimental but on two occassions this season Theo has been within 5 mins. of a shut out and the game gets a little rough or the other team takes a shot that may be condidered cheap and Therrien puts a goon out - in one case it was Simpson in another it was Geno - and in both cases the goon took a penalty and the other team scored a pp thus killing Theo's shutout. As I said it may be sentimental but when Theo's your #1 guy it seems to me you think about the SO in that situation. Others may say don't let us be pushed around but I would take the SO anytime.

[MPLABBE]

I remember the Simpson incident well,but I don't recall Odjick costing Theo a shuout by taking a dumb penalty?