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Post by CentreHice on Apr 2, 2014 9:49:42 GMT -5
What the heck is going on? We're trying to gear up for the playoffs and Therrien is still pounding away at Subban's confidence.
What other coach on what other other team has done/is doing anything similar to a franchise player in his 4th year?
We know MT was a harsh PK critic during his stint on L'Antichambre in 2011-12 (when he could've been a critic of darn near everybody that year.) From the outside, it appears personal.
I'm afraid Subban's camp may want out.
I read today on our board that PK wants to wait til after the season to negotiate a contract....and that it may come down to an offer sheet.
I hope Bergevin and Molson are smart enough to ascertain a personal grudge, IF it exists.
I haven't watched 24CH....is Subban still getting the cold shoulder, hot tongue??
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Post by Willie Dog on Apr 2, 2014 10:05:49 GMT -5
What the heck is going on? We're trying to gear up for the playoffs and Therrien is still pounding away at Subban's confidence. What other coach on what other other team has done/is doing anything similar to a franchise player in his 4th year? We know MT was a harsh PK critic during his stint on L'Antichambre in 2011-12 (when he could've been a critic of darn near everybody that year.) From the outside, it appears personal. I'm afraid Subban's camp may want out. I read today on our board that PK wants to wait til after the season to negotiate a contract....and that it may come down to an offer sheet. I hope Bergevin and Molson are smart enough to ascertain a personal grudge, IF it exists. I haven't watched 24CH....is Subban still getting the cold shoulder, hot tongue?? I have watched all of them and I haven't seen any in a number of episodes, now that does not mean it didn't happen. The team has veto rights over what is shown. They chose to show PK getting tongue lashed by MThead. Why they agreed to show this is beyond me. This had to go through management and not just MT. Why would they allow their star defenceman to be showed up in this way? I fully expect there to be an offer sheet. I posted this in the TBay GDT I have a bad feeling PK will not be here next year. Why should he? He is treated like a second class citizen, when guys with less ability, less desire and less talent get more ice time. That is all on MT. If MT is still coach, it wouldn't surprise me that MB decides to not match the offer sheet and takes the picks. Now If the other team offers less than 8.4 per year, then they only have to give up 2 firsts, a second and a third.
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Post by Polarice on Apr 2, 2014 10:07:47 GMT -5
I think they are just resting him....making sure he is good and healthy for the playoffs.
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Post by seventeen on Apr 2, 2014 13:53:13 GMT -5
Could be he has some nagging thing that they don't want to make worse. Or maybe they didn't want him on the penalty kill, so he got fewer minutes. Weaver and Murray got way more minutes than normal (21:05 and 18:43 respectively), so that would confirm the penalty reasoning.
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Post by jkr on Apr 2, 2014 14:16:12 GMT -5
What the heck is going on? We're trying to gear up for the playoffs and Therrien is still pounding away at Subban's confidence. What other coach on what other other team has done/is doing anything similar to a franchise player in his 4th year? We know MT was a harsh PK critic during his stint on L'Antichambre in 2011-12 (when he could've been a critic of darn near everybody that year.) From the outside, it appears personal. I'm afraid Subban's camp may want out. I read today on our board that PK wants to wait til after the season to negotiate a contract....and that it may come down to an offer sheet. I hope Bergevin and Molson are smart enough to ascertain a personal grudge, IF it exists. I haven't watched 24CH....is Subban still getting the cold shoulder, hot tongue?? That was me - I read Friedman's 30 Thoughts & that's where he stated it - Subban wants to wait. The offer sheet thing was speculation on my part.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Apr 2, 2014 15:15:39 GMT -5
...the penalty kill isn't the reason. PK got as much penalty killing minutes as Markov and Emelin, 2 minutes more than Bouillon. But PK last night was the dmen that got the least amount of icetime 5 on 5. The least. With less than 10 minutes of it.
...So yeah Therrien toyed with PK's icetime... again... for whatever reason...
Is it personnal?
If I'm PK I'd sure think it is.
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Post by CentreHice on Apr 2, 2014 15:45:00 GMT -5
That's exactly what I meant, Doc.
He got the least even-strength minutes of the entire D.
Meanwhile, it's a 1-1 tie....we're on the PP, after killing 2 penalties...and Desharnais tries a no-look back pass at the TBay blueline....directly resulting in Johnson's shorthanded, breakaway, winning goal.
Will he pay with ice time for such a mistake?
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Post by Doc Holliday on Apr 2, 2014 15:54:35 GMT -5
...wouldn't make me feel any better if he had benched DD at the first sight of a mistake considering how good he's been for months...
But personnal or not when Therrien does that to PK it's the whole team that suffers. This game was well within reach and cuting the ice of your #1 dmen in such game is the work of a coach that puts his little grudge ahead of the team. And that is what I hate the most in MT: his ego.
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Post by CentreHice on Apr 2, 2014 16:20:17 GMT -5
Yes, I'm not saying that DD should be benched for that mistake. They happen.
But had PK made a mistake in that game even remotely as bad?
That's my point.
As you say....ego. Some kind of grudge is always lurking just under the surface when it comes to PK, it seems. Therrien also seems to have played havoc with Eller's development/confidence. But that's another issue.
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Post by HFTO on Apr 2, 2014 16:27:44 GMT -5
Not on any other team would a talent like PK not be leaned on in a big game like last nights....does he make mistakes yes but his greatness will outshine the odd gaffe 9-1...I'll take those odds any day. The handling of PK is out of control and that goes for all our young player...again what teams would not be throwing the likes of their DRAFTED players Tinordi, Beaulieu into the fire when again they have more talent than the slow old group we keep sending out. Trust me they won't win with the Boullion's Murrays's even Weavers and they may not with our kids but they are our immediate future ...I'd rather lose with these kids learning than with these aging slugs...the future in now..not tomorrow....why are they delaying the process... they are part of the core group that they are counting on to win. It makes no sense can anybody tell me different?
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Post by seventeen on Apr 2, 2014 17:18:04 GMT -5
...the penalty kill isn't the reason. PK got as much penalty killing minutes as Markov and Emelin, 2 minutes more than Bouillon. But PK last night was the dmen that got the least amount of icetime 5 on 5. The least. With less than 10 minutes of it. ...So yeah Therrien toyed with PK's icetime... again... for whatever reason... Is it personnal? If I'm PK I'd sure think it is. I've made it obvious I'm not a fan of MT's. There have been too many instances that are difficult to understand unless there is indeed an overactive ego behind the bench. "My way or the highway" just doesn't work anymore as players are not as helpless as they once were. MT is not using the best management practices if he's using anything at all. PK, Tinordi, Galchenyuk, etc. etc. etc. get one treatment - Cube, Murray and anyone else over 30 years of age gets another. Another point that no one has brought up yet and I noticed it from 24CH. Therrien often praises Price to high heaven, especially in front of the other players. He uses that secret psychological tactic of blaming his team for "letting Pricer down". That can work for a while, but frankly if I was on the Habs, I'd be getting tired of it. Instead of feeling guilty for not pulling my weight, I'd be thinking, "and you'd be out of a job if he wasn't playing so well, so FO." Therrien has really had the benefit of Price having an outstanding year, of a connection between the players on the team that really has them sticking up for themselves (and MT may have something to do with that) and of occasional superior performances by individuals (PK winning a couple of games by himself and Vanek dispossessing Kronvall and setting up DD for a key goal for example). I'm not even getting further into the number of games we've been horribly outshot and still win because Price or Budaj play lights out. I detest his treatment of our youngsters which goes way beyond natural consequences and I hate how our team plays at times, especially when we need a goal and we go into fortress mode. Pittsburgh had it right and he hasn't learned much since then. Crosby must be laughing his head off, giving his 'seal of approval'. What better way to get back at us for the Halak playoff?
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Post by franko on Apr 2, 2014 17:50:57 GMT -5
what teams would not be throwing the likes of their DRAFTED players Tinordi, Beaulieu into the fire when again they have more talent than the slow old group we keep sending out. MT wasn't the first to do this *cough*JM*cough* but I sure hope he's the last to do it!
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Apr 2, 2014 19:57:21 GMT -5
I think some fans take it a lot more personally than Therrien and Subban do. A week ago Subban was getting close to 30 minutes a game and being played despite making mistakes so now Therrien has a grudge seems pretty improbable. There are a lot of factors that go into ice time, Subban doesn't kill penalties and last night there was a lot of them. Therrien may have been trying to keep pairings together especially against certain opposing lines, Subban may have been off his game or maybe banged up a little and rested a bit, we don't know. It is not like he threw a water bottle and got Therrien's suit wet so was sat for 10 minutes, speaking of coaches making poor decisions.
Therrien has had the team in a playoff spot the entire year. Price or Pacioretty are having great years but Therrien gets no credit for their development but any player that goes into a slump it is because Therrien is using them wrong, the logic just dosn't make sense.
Should PK decide not to sign it is very unlikely he will get an offer sheet but if he does it could be a win for the team because as a RFA the Habs have the option to match that and have PK signed without a long negotiation. It is doubtful he would sit out because he did that before and ended up signing for what was offered initally so didn't gain anything.
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Post by CentreHice on Apr 2, 2014 21:42:51 GMT -5
I heard on the radio today that Therrien has nothing to do with Price. That's all in the hands of Stephane Waite, as it would be on any team that has a goalie coach. The head coach determines only when they start and when they get pulled.
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Post by habsorbed on Apr 2, 2014 23:31:58 GMT -5
I heard on the radio today that Therrien has nothing to do with Price. That's all in the hands of Stephane Waite, as it would be on any team that has a goalie coach. The head coach determines only when they start and when they get pulled. I like that philosophy. Maybe we could get a coach for the forwards and a coach for the dmen. MT's sole function, and his forte, would be to swear at the players between periods.
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Apr 3, 2014 4:37:53 GMT -5
I heard on the radio today that Therrien has nothing to do with Price. That's all in the hands of Stephane Waite, as it would be on any team that has a goalie coach. The head coach determines only when they start and when they get pulled. The point I was trying to make was that the coach can't be critisized for every bed move because someone doesn't like him and ignored for all the good things he has done. Some players on the team are having very good years, this is probably the deepest and toughest team the Habs have iced in years, young players have been inserted into the lineup and played important roles. I didn't like the MT hiring but he has gotten as much out of this team as I think anyone could have. I don't care if Subban doesnt like him if the team performs well and lots of players have hated their coach but gone on to win championships. There are 20 other players on this team besides PK Subban and I have not heard any player having problems with the coach and guys like Briere, Bourque, or Eller had plenty of reasons to complain more then Subban when it comes to ice time or roles they were given.
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Post by jkr on Apr 3, 2014 6:52:43 GMT -5
Watched a bit of the Sens game last night. 12 minutes into the 3rd they stated that Karlsson had only 3 shifts in a tight game. TSN was going on and on about his offense but didn't mention his plus/minus which is now down to -18. They were criticizing Mclean but I can understand his reluctance. Karlsson is just as likely to score as to give up a great chance.
PK Subban is not the only young D man getting this treatment. (BTW Subban's +/- is now down to even).
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Post by Willie Dog on Apr 3, 2014 8:03:27 GMT -5
I heard on the radio today that Therrien has nothing to do with Price. That's all in the hands of Stephane Waite, as it would be on any team that has a goalie coach. The head coach determines only when they start and when they get pulled. I like that philosophy. Maybe we could get a coach for the forwards and a coach for the dmen. MT's sole function, and his forte, would be to swear at the players between periods. lol... and to tell them to play the right way. This team could win the cup with that sort of structure
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Post by Willie Dog on Apr 3, 2014 8:19:52 GMT -5
Watched a bit of the Sens game last night. 12 minutes into the 3rd they stated that Karlsson had only 3 shifts in a tight game. TSN was going on and on about his offense but didn't mention his plus/minus which is now down to -18. They were criticizing Mclean but I can understand his reluctance. Karlsson is just as likely to score as to give up a great chance. PK Subban is not the only young D man getting this treatment. (BTW Subban's +/- is now down to even). But other than the past week or so, PK, in general, has been way better than Karlsson defensively. If you compare the 2 players, PK is better all around, but Karlsson, is a much more fluid offensive puck mover. Karlsson has also, IMO, been handled with kid gloves since he has gotten into the NHL. PK has been crapped on by the media, players on other teams, players on his own team and by his coaches. Karlsson has had rainbow and sunshine pushed up his butt since he got into the league... PK not so much. Also, Karlsson had a true leader and mentor in Alfredsson. Who did PK have... Hal Gill.
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Post by seventeen on Apr 3, 2014 10:27:21 GMT -5
PK needs more consistency, yes. There are times when he doesn't take the safe way out and that leads to high risk situations. When he doesn't try to do too much, he's very effective and that opens up more offensive opportunities that aren't high risk. He'll get there. MT can take away ice time (and sometimes that's justified) but he can't bench him because he's too important (unlike some other young dman). And there's the quandary with Therrien. Let's say he's treating PK fairly and that PK deserves the reduced ice time. How the hell does one explain Bouillon and Murray? Cube has made more errors that have led to as many goals against as PK, yet he appears to get rewarded. We all see Murray's deficiencies. I really like his drive his power and his presence, but keep the puck away from him and keep him away from mobile players. Yikes. It's those disparities in how he treats different players that drives me crazy. Somehow I can't see that generating respect from the players. I don't think they mind if someone screws up and they face consequences, but it has to be applied equally to everyone. Not so on the Habs.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Apr 3, 2014 11:30:34 GMT -5
I just hope Bergevin is being hands-on enough with Therrien to make sure he undertands the big picture and that the players are being properly utilized. I think we're past the days in sports where the GM basically leaves the coach alone to do his job. There's so much data analysis, advanced metrics and such happening at the management level that filters down from the GM to the coach. Billy Beane is probably the most famous example of managing a team from the executive suite, but I follow the Red Sox very closely and know that there is a constant line of communication between the GM and the manager around personnel, strategy, tactics, etc. It's a real team effort and constant feedback loop. Coaches live in the here and now and, now more than ever, they need the regular feedback and perspective and analysis that management can provide.
As it relates to Subban, Berg needs to make sure that MT doesn't piss him off so much as to compromise the contract situation and the on-ice performance. We know MT is a stubborn guy who plays favorites, but it's BERG's job to make sure there's a good balance. Just like it's Berg's job, IMO, to walk into MT's office and tell him that Douglas Murray contributes almost nothing to this team and that Tinordi is the better option at this point.
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Post by Willie Dog on Apr 3, 2014 11:51:52 GMT -5
As it relates to Subban, Berg needs to make sure that MT doesn't piss him off so much as to compromise the contract situation and the on-ice performance. We know MT is a stubborn guy who plays favorites, but it's BERG's job to make sure there's a good balance. Just like it's Berg's job, IMO, to walk into MT's office and tell him that Douglas Murray contributes almost nothing to this team and that Tinordi is the better option at this point. I agree but MT has been the same way all season long, so either Berg ain't going to talk to MT or berg is and MT thinks he "is the boss" and is ignoring him. Either way we have a problem. Berg hired all this front office staff, where are they? Where is the director of player personnel, shouldn't he be in MT's ear?
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Apr 3, 2014 18:07:29 GMT -5
Do you think Jim Nill spends much time telling Mike Babcock who to play?
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Post by CentreHice on Apr 3, 2014 18:31:02 GMT -5
Do you think Jim Nill spends much time telling Mike Babcock who to play? I hope not....because Nill is the GM of Dallas.... I know you meant Holland. I just couldn't resist. Seriously though....if Therrien had Babcock's resume, I doubt very much I'd have started this thread.
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Apr 3, 2014 20:18:31 GMT -5
Ha ,,,its all good.
I really didnt like the MT hiring when it was done but have to admit he is better then I thought he would be. I think he gets a raw deal for past history but he has been pretty decent so far.
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Post by Willie Dog on Apr 3, 2014 20:25:26 GMT -5
Do you think Jim Nill spends much time telling Mike Babcock who to play? It's ironic that you posted that HF. Mcguire said on tsn690 today that when Babcock started with the wings he was a hard ass. A number of team leaders went to Holland that they weren't happy with the way things were happening. Holland met with babcock about it. Babcock adapted and the players adapted and they've done great ever since.
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Post by Disp on Apr 4, 2014 2:55:09 GMT -5
Do you think Jim Nill spends much time telling Mike Babcock who to play? I hope not....because Nill is the GM of Dallas.... I know you meant Holland. I just couldn't resist. Seriously though....if Therrien had Babcock's resume, I doubt very much I'd have started this thread. Babcock's cup was vs MT, so it doesn't really count.
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Post by seventeen on Apr 4, 2014 11:04:13 GMT -5
Ha ,,,its all good. I really didnt like the MT hiring when it was done but have to admit he is better then I thought he would be. I think he gets a raw deal for past history but he has been pretty decent so far. I guess that's the real question. Has the team's record so far been a reflection of the coaching, or in its most simplistic terms, the result of excellent goaltending? When I see the difficulty we have coming out of our end at times, the line up choices, the arbitrary punishments for errors, I don't think he's been that good at all. But I understand how one can see it from a different viewpoint.
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Post by stoat on Apr 5, 2014 23:12:31 GMT -5
I don't know what's going on but lately PK has been playing like an undependable #7, on the order of a FB. Is it the fat-lipped coach? Ego? An injury? Something unrelated to hockey?
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Apr 5, 2014 23:33:02 GMT -5
I don't know what's going on but lately PK has been playing like an undependable #7, on the order of a FB. Is it the fat-lipped coach? Ego? An injury? Something unrelated to hockey? Lack of hockey sense maybe??
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