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Post by Boston_Habs on Jul 17, 2014 16:01:29 GMT -5
I stop being a PK fan the minute it comes out that PK wants north of 9 million. This then becomes "show me the money and I don't care" versus "I want to play hockey and wion a cup". Fact of life is that there is no change of lifestyle between 7-8 million or 9-10 million. On the other hand, given there is a cap, the higher the number, the less likely a chance of a cup. PK is good, really good, but he's no Bobby Orr and he ain't the "best" in the NHL. Plus if this goes sideways because he's greedy, the fans will turn against him. If he thinks the Hab fans are behind him because of any other reason then he can help us win a cup, then he's delusional. Norris Trophy winner in the first year of the bridge deal, then he follows that up with a dominant playoff performance in his second year. PK has been an elite player the past 2 years, but was paid less than half of what he was worth. I have ZERO sympathy for Bergevin this time around. He walked right into this. PK was the good soldier last time in taking that crappy bridge deal. He shouldn't have to do it again. 8 years, $74 million.
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Post by christrpn on Jul 17, 2014 17:29:41 GMT -5
Subban will not win a cup by himself. Teams pay superstars big money because they attract fans. Fans put money in the pockets of the owners. Montreal doesn't need a PK Subban to make money. I will be willing to bet that the league makes more money off of Gallagher merchandise than they do off Subban. If MTL wants a cup, they need more than Subban.
If PK want north of $9.5M, he will have to get it from Florida or NJ because he is not worth that to MTL. Does he have talent, yes, but not even Gretzky can win a cup by himself.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jul 17, 2014 18:49:41 GMT -5
I stop being a PK fan the minute it comes out that PK wants north of 9 million. This then becomes "show me the money and I don't care" versus "I want to play hockey and wion a cup". Fact of life is that there is no change of lifestyle between 7-8 million or 9-10 million. On the other hand, given there is a cap, the higher the number, the less likely a chance of a cup. PK is good, really good, but he's no Bobby Orr and he ain't the "best" in the NHL. Plus if this goes sideways because he's greedy, the fans will turn against him. If he thinks the Hab fans are behind him because of any other reason then he can help us win a cup, then he's delusional. Norris Trophy winner in the first year of the bridge deal, then he follows that up with a dominant playoff performance in his second year. PK has been an elite player the past 2 years, but was paid less than half of what he was worth. I have ZERO sympathy for Bergevin this time around. He walked right into this. PK was the good soldier last time in taking that crappy bridge deal. He shouldn't have to do it again. 8 years, $74 million. This is why Bergeron gets the big bucks and we don't. 1. The team has lots of money, that's not the problem. 2. Building a team in the cap era places limits on what the team can pay. 3. Bergeron is building a team, not a nest egg for a single player. 4. 8 in Quebec = 10 in Florida. 5. There isn't much that Subban can't do with $8 million that he could do with $10 million. It's a lesson he has to learn. How many Timbits can a man eat? 6. While Montreal doesn't need Subban to fill seats, Florida has an empty arena and can't sell $20 tickets. 7. Subban is a very bright articulate young man grounded from a strong intelligent family. 8. Subban is good at shot, carrying the puck, power play, passing, hitting, vision. 9. Subban makes mistakes and has been benched for cause. 10. Subban has never stolen a purse, caught in a bar room brawl, got a girl pregnant, fought with his Nuns Island neighbor, arrested for driving his Lambo too fast, caught with drugs or sleeping with a teammates wife yada yada yada. 11. Subban has made enemies in the NHL, his fault or not. 12. Montrealers vacation in Florida, Floridians in Montreal for the winter, not so much. It's not as easy as saying to Bergeron, open Molsons wallet and tell PK to take what he wants.
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Post by christrpn on Jul 17, 2014 19:00:11 GMT -5
Norris Trophy winner in the first year of the bridge deal, then he follows that up with a dominant playoff performance in his second year. PK has been an elite player the past 2 years, but was paid less than half of what he was worth. I have ZERO sympathy for Bergevin this time around. He walked right into this. PK was the good soldier last time in taking that crappy bridge deal. He shouldn't have to do it again. 8 years, $74 million. This is why Bergeron gets the big bucks and we don't. 1. The team has lots of money, that's not the problem. 2. Building a team in the cap era places limits on what the team can pay. 3. Bergeron is building a team, not a nest egg for a single player. 4. 8 in Quebec = 10 in Florida. 5. There isn't much that Subban can't do with $8 million that he could do with $10 million. It's a lesson he has to learn. How many Timbits can a man eat? 6. While Montreal doesn't need Subban to fill seats, Florida has an empty arena and can't sell $20 tickets. 7. Subban is a very bright articulate young man grounded from a strong intelligent family. 8. Subban is good at shot, carrying the puck, power play, passing, hitting, vision. 9. Subban makes mistakes and has been benched for cause. 10. Subban has never stolen a purse, caught in a bar room brawl, got a girl pregnant, fought with his Nuns Island neighbor, arrested for driving his Lambo too fast, caught with drugs or sleeping with a teammates wife yada yada yada. 11. Subban has made enemies in the NHL, his fault or not. 12. Montrealers vacation in Florida, Floridians in Montreal for the winter, not so much. It's not as easy as saying to Bergeron, open Molsons wallet and tell PK to take what he wants. Very well said. I can't fault anyone here because both sides are right. Subban deserves big money. Montreal doesn't have to pay him big money. If Subban wants to win in Montreal and see what it feels like when the city is alive, then he will take a smaller raise then what he would get in the open market. If he is truly all about the money, he will sign a two year deal in arbitration and go play elsewhere, unless of course there is a cup in those two years, then all I' just said is moot and he'll get a huge pay raise and yell a big FU to all the doubters.
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Post by habsorbed on Jul 17, 2014 23:07:34 GMT -5
Why do people think PK stays in Mtl after two years if he's won a Cup. I think at that point he chases the money more than ever. But I'm OK with losing PK after we win a Cup. It's been 21 years. There was a time we never went more than 7 and that was at the outside.
Problem is two years is a very small window and one hell of a risk to lose PK for nothing. I don't understand how the Hawks can pay two guys $10.5 and we can't pay one guy $9-10. Same cap for both teams, no? Do we have 2 other players in the system who we will be paying that kind of money in the future? Maybe Carey in a few years (especially given what Schnieder just signed for) but who else? And don't say AGal as he has proven nothing yet. He is no more than a prospect who is injury prone at this point. PK is the real deal! Pay the guy!
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Post by seventeen on Jul 18, 2014 1:27:09 GMT -5
I don't understand how the Hawks can pay two guys $10.5 and we can't pay one guy $9-10. Same cap for both teams, no? I'm not taking either side on the PK salary issue, but your question about how the Hawks can pay two guys 10.5 each has yet to be answered. The broader question is how can they pay those two a total of $21MM and still have enough to surround them with a good enough supporting cast. The Hawks have won two recent cups, both in years where they had a pretty good support group for Toews and Kane. This past year, with the increased salaries to those two, the bottom 2 lines weren't as good. What happens in the future when they have to dump even more good players (Sharp being the latest possible example) in order to come under the CAP? They're really going have to draft well and develop their cheap kids. As do the rest of us. The more you pay your key guy(s), the more difficult it becomes to compete.
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Post by habsorbed on Jul 18, 2014 1:42:04 GMT -5
I don't understand how the Hawks can pay two guys $10.5 and we can't pay one guy $9-10. Same cap for both teams, no? I'm not taking either side on the PK salary issue, but your question about how the Hawks can pay two guys 10.5 each has yet to be answered. The broader question is how can they pay those two a total of $21MM and still have enough to surround them with a good enough supporting cast. The Hawks have won two recent cups, both in years where they had a pretty good support group for Toews and Kane. This past year, with the increased salaries to those two, the bottom 2 lines weren't as good. What happens in the future when they have to dump even more good players (Sharp being the latest possible example) in order to come under the CAP? They're really going have to draft well and develop their cheap kids. As do the rest of us. The more you pay your key guy(s), the more difficult it becomes to compete. Well it hasn't worked for Pitt with Crosby and Malkin either. Although i'm starting to think I'd rather have 2 or 3 superstars and the rest fillers than 5 or 6 strong players and the rest fillers. For too long we have had a bunch of B+ players who allows us to compete but not contend. I'm tired of that formula. I'll take my chances on securing a few great stars and some B players and then some young talent on entry level contracts and some role playing fillers.
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Post by HABSINFL on Jul 20, 2014 9:59:35 GMT -5
So far so good he gets an average rating from me. Once the Suban and Eller matters are settled then I'll pass final Judgement to Very good
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Post by jkr on Jul 31, 2014 23:08:34 GMT -5
going to arbitration with Subban ( it's after midnight here so I assume that's what is happening) is a big fail for me. EDIT: He's got everything done on his To Do list except the most important piece. This should have been his priority from day 1. The rest of the stuff was secondary. It's now August 1 & less than then 2 hours before arbitration, & he's playing chicken with his best player. Bergevin has been so clever that he could end up seeing Subban walk for nothing in 2 seasons.
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Post by jkr on Aug 1, 2014 6:26:54 GMT -5
Subban will not win a cup by himself. Teams pay superstars big money because they attract fans. Fans put money in the pockets of the owners. Montreal doesn't need a PK Subban to make money. I will be willing to bet that the league makes more money off of Gallagher merchandise than they do off Subban. If MTL wants a cup, they need more than Subban. If PK want north of $9.5M, he will have to get it from Florida or NJ because he is not worth that to MTL. Does he have talent, yes, but not even Gretzky can win a cup by himself. Sure he won't win a Cup by himself ,no one does. But look at the Cup winners in recent history. What stands out is the elite highly paid stud they all had: 2007 - Pronger & Niedermeyer 2008 - Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom 2009 - Crosby, Malkin 2010 - Toews, Kane 2011 - Chara 2012 - Doughty These guys are a necessary piece to the ultimate success. Trading him for pieces & picks just ensures that the Habs will continue to tread water.
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Post by flowerpower on Aug 1, 2014 14:02:32 GMT -5
Resigning Therrien as head-coach and his constant low-balling of P.K. Subban from day one are making me rate him average at best.
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Post by seventeen on Aug 1, 2014 15:17:26 GMT -5
Don't be too quick to judge until we have more facts. It's amazing how one story can differ from another when you hear two viewpoints of the same situation.
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Post by UberCranky on Aug 1, 2014 15:30:36 GMT -5
Resigning Therrien as head-coach and his constant low-balling of P.K. Subban from day one are making me rate him average at best. This was his defining moment as GM. Gainey threw away McDonagh & now Bergevin is losing the most talented player they've had in years. e'll watch Subban star for another team & wonder. Thank you Bergevin, Thank you Molson. I have a thread on PK's value. Tell us what you think Berg should of paid.
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Post by christrpn on Aug 1, 2014 16:03:14 GMT -5
This was his defining moment as GM. Gainey threw away McDonagh & now Bergevin is losing the most talented player they've had in years. e'll watch Subban star for another team & wonder. Thank you Bergevin, Thank you Molson. I have a thread on PK's value. Tell us what you think Berg should of paid. Problem here is that we don't have enough to give subban what everyone thinks he's worth. Not this year anyways. Sign him to one year at $6.5M,low ball for sure,next year Bourque leaves and you tack on most if not all his salary at 8yrs. in doing so, you save cap this year, and what you save + what cap goes up you can sign Tinordi, and the Galleys to bridge deals. Look at the BIG picture. Have to think of next year as well
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Post by BadCompany on Aug 4, 2014 7:35:34 GMT -5
Okay, I'm drinking the Kool-Aid.
I've been a Bergevin fan all along, in large part because I've liked the way he has addressed the off-ice personnel. I've thought for a long time that this was a huge gap in our organization, and in fact think that the Centennial Year collapse was in large part because of this gap. There was just no support system in place, and if you're trying to build a house with no support… well, you know how that goes.
Now having said that, I didn't get it. I didn't see "the plan". Until now. I was looking at capgeek yesterday, and like Morpheus it suddenly all came together for me. This upcoming season will be our playoff university, as Bob Gainey used to say, and we're going for it, all in, the season after. 2015-16. I think this last playoff run was a bit of a surprise, but this year Bergevin is really going to be auditioning/training his team on what it takes to be a Championship team. And those that fail, will be gone. Because 2015-16 is the year. Subban's bridge contract set that stage; we have five players coming off of ELCs next summer, and not a single one of them will be able to argue for anything other than a bridge contract. While that may not seem like all that big a deal, when you see guys like Jake Gardiner getting over $4 million, skipping the bridge, it comes together. Nathan Beaulieu, for example, will have to take a bridge, and that will save a million or so. Ditto, or perhaps more relevantly, Alex Galchenyuk and Brendan Gallagher. If your generational talent has to take a bridge, and the GM is prepared to let him sit out to get it, then what chance do Galchenyuk and Gallagher have? Or Tinordi? Bournival? They will all take bridge deals, and while it may seem short-sighted in the long run, we're not looking long run anymore. We're looking at 2015-16, and every dime saved will be needed for that season.
Because if it shakes out the way I can see it shaking out, we will have the core of our team not only locked up, but in their primes. With several of them playing for their Subban-like long term contract (all the guys coming off the bridge). Others will be playing for their UFA lives. AND we could be looking at anywhere from $8-10 million in cap space, after the bridges are signed and whoever of Eller, Plekanec and Desharnais fails Playoff U. With a cap increase of course. So with all that extra money lying around we'll be in a position to go for a big fish.
A very big fish.
Like, Alexander Ovechkin big.
Yeah, I said it. Alex Ovechkin. I think the stars could be lining up for us to land Ovechkin next year, possibly at the draft. Wouldn't that be something?
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Post by franko on Aug 4, 2014 8:25:18 GMT -5
WOT? an actual 5-year plan?
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 4, 2014 8:59:52 GMT -5
Okay, I'm drinking the Kool-Aid. I've been a Bergevin fan all along, in large part because I've liked the way he has addressed the off-ice personnel. I've thought for a long time that this was a huge gap in our organization, and in fact think that the Centennial Year collapse was in large part because of this gap. There was just no support system in place, and if you're trying to build a house with no support… well, you know how that goes. Now having said that, I didn't get it. I didn't see "the plan". Until now. I was looking at capgeek yesterday, and like Morpheus it suddenly all came together for me. This upcoming season will be our playoff university, as Bob Gainey used to say, and we're going for it, all in, the season after. 2015-16. I think this last playoff run was a bit of a surprise, but this year Bergevin is really going to be auditioning/training his team on what it takes to be a Championship team. And those that fail, will be gone. Because 2015-16 is the year. Subban's bridge contract set that stage; we have five players coming off of ELCs next summer, and not a single one of them will be able to argue for anything other than a bridge contract. While that may not seem like all that big a deal, when you see guys like Jake Gardiner getting over $4 million, skipping the bridge, it comes together. Nathan Beaulieu, for example, will have to take a bridge, and that will save a million or so. Ditto, or perhaps more relevantly, Alex Galchenyuk and Brendan Gallagher. If your generational talent has to take a bridge, and the GM is prepared to let him sit out to get it, then what chance do Galchenyuk and Gallagher have? Or Tinordi? Bournival? They will all take bridge deals, and while it may seem short-sighted in the long run, we're not looking long run anymore. We're looking at 2015-16, and every dime saved will be needed for that season. Because if it shakes out the way I can see it shaking out, we will have the core of our team not only locked up, but in their primes. With several of them playing for their Subban-like long term contract (all the guys coming off the bridge). Others will be playing for their UFA lives. AND we could be looking at anywhere from $8-10 million in cap space, after the bridges are signed and whoever of Eller, Plekanec and Desharnais fails Playoff U. With a cap increase of course. So with all that extra money lying around we'll be in a position to go for a big fish. A very big fish. Like, Alexander Ovechkin big. Yeah, I said it. Alex Ovechkin. I think the stars could be lining up for us to land Ovechkin next year, possibly at the draft. Wouldn't that be something? Unless there's some way to inject character and work ethic into Sochi's Poster Boy, I'd have to pass on Ovechkin and his retirement funds contract. As an outsider looking in, he doesn't seem to be in the mold of player Bergevin is looking for. Bridge deals: If you're picking up on his pattern then I dare say other around the league are picking up on it, too ... Bergevin has a pragmatic approach to business both on and off the ice ... he's a personable guy, but he's all business and his actions/decisions reflect that ... Cheers.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Aug 4, 2014 11:34:50 GMT -5
…I’m not on the bandwagon just yet. And the Kool-Aid is a little too clear for my taste right now …
Bergevin has done some good no doubt about it.
But…
To me Berg has done quite his share of questionable signings and acquisitions as well… Also the process of signing our only franchise player has been a painful one that actually had to go through arbitration hearing to get done… we came terribly close to a catastrophe IMO and reading between the lines, you have to think that Geoff Molson came in to save the day… and finally Berg’s choice of NHL head coach remains questionable (as is his monster extension)… and just as well I’m really not a fan of his AHL head coach either.
It takes at least 3 years to judge a GM work and we are going to see that third season next year. As BC often outlined, when Gainey came on board he had a plan that he executed perfectly and then the centennial season came and showed us that he had built a house of cards… Better internal/external support now with Berg? I agree with that… but only to a certain extent. Sure we have Lapointe and Bridebois/Ramage checking out the kids… and we’ve talked a lot about how Gallagher was living with the Gorges… but Galchenyuk lives with his own family (and you don’t have to do very intensive research to get pics of him partying with his sister), and we remember the Beaulieu story of last summer….
All this to say that sometimes the warts take some time to show.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Aug 4, 2014 11:54:45 GMT -5
My big issue is the lack of scoring and the decision to double down on Michel Therrien. Of course the extension won't prevent him from getting fired if that's what it takes, but I look past the good playoff run last year to a team that was simply dreadful in even strength scoring and the possession metrics that typically go along with it. Quite simply we became a different team when Vanek came on board, a better possession and scoring team, and that carried us through the end of the regular season to 100 points and a strong playoff run.
So which team will we be next year. The lousy even strength team that was bailed put by superior goaltending or the more aggressive, possession team that we saw down the stretch? Sadly, I still don't have enough confidence in Therrien to be smart enough to figure out how this team needs to play to be successful and Bergevin didn't do enough to replace one of the best offensive weapons we had last year in Vanek. Berg seems to be counting on improvement from guys like Eller and Galchenyuk and better balance with the likes of Parenteau and Malhotra.
So it's hard to give him a grade. This is a big year for the Habs that will go a long way to validating the direction of the team and whether or not there is engh thereto be truly competitive. I wish I had more confidence in our ability to score, but I still expect us to be a solid playoff team next year and pushing Boston for he division.
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Post by seventeen on Aug 4, 2014 11:55:16 GMT -5
I think Bergevin's done very well so far, with one fairly sizeable exception, and that's his choice of coaches. Therrien still has to prove to me he's got the goods and, not quite as importantly, but still of concern is Hamilton's coach. I understand Lefebvre is highly thought of, but I keep asking, "By whom?". Show me his resume. And when you read it, ask why someone with a consistent record of being involved with failed teams is still in charge of our prospects.
Yes, you can give me a whole bunch of reasons why the Dogs were such a bad team the last two years and I'll come back with the fact that good coaches can make a bad team respectable. I certainly didn't expect them to win the Calder Cup, but maybe make the playoffs? Not even close. Berg should take a well deserved break and come back in September and have a close look at Hamilton especially. The big club's coaching will sort itself out as it's always under close scrutiny, but it's so important to be teaching our kids how to be successful (by winning) or at least competing, and when it's not happening, it should be addressed.
See, there's always some to wring our hands about at HabsRus.
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Post by seventeen on Aug 4, 2014 12:05:44 GMT -5
we came terribly close to a catastrophe IMO and reading between the lines, you have to think that Geoff Molson came in to save the day… All this to say that sometimes the warts take some time to show. You make good points, Doc. Your mention of Molson is interesting. In hindsight, I suspect that when negotiations began, Berg and Molson had a talk and Berg was give some parameters and a ceiling figure he could use. The owner pays the bills, so I have no doubt that's how it started. When Berg relayed his final "considerable" offer as it was quoted, and then PK turned it down, that seemed the end of it. Molson's a savvy guy, though, and when the furore seemed to be pinning the blame on the Habs, and as HappyCranky points out, Other teams would have a better financial situation for signing PK in 2 years, Molson raised the ceiling figure to what PK wanted. And I have to say, that this whole negotiation smacks so much of PK's attitude toward life. It was theatre, but isn't that PK? Do you remember the Bad Suit contest on 24CH? Was any suit as glaringly bad or theatrical than PK's? So before we blame the team too much for 'letting it get to this stage', remember that it's exactly the type of scenario PK loves, pressure, high stakes and uber excitement.
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Post by stoat on Aug 4, 2014 12:27:05 GMT -5
Taking everything he's done into consideration, I's say the vector arrow has pointed more or less north (i.e., upward) since he arrived. Some say he's failed to acquire a stud RW but he tried Vanek (too bad he was not the answer). He can't go that way again without taking the cost into consideration. In the preseason Bergevin has to assess the prospects. Perhaps one of them will meet the need without costing an arm and a leg. Or will Bourque be inspired by his own playoff feats?
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 4, 2014 13:41:33 GMT -5
we came terribly close to a catastrophe IMO and reading between the lines, you have to think that Geoff Molson came in to save the day… All this to say that sometimes the warts take some time to show. You make good points, Doc. Your mention of Molson is interesting. In hindsight, I suspect that when negotiations began, Berg and Molson had a talk and Berg was give some parameters and a ceiling figure he could use. The owner pays the bills, so I have no doubt that's how it started. When Berg relayed his final "considerable" offer as it was quoted, and then PK turned it down, that seemed the end of it. Molson's a savvy guy, though, and when the furore seemed to be pinning the blame on the Habs, and as HappyCranky points out, Other teams would have a better financial situation for signing PK in 2 years, Molson raised the ceiling figure to what PK wanted. And I have to say, that this whole negotiation smacks so much of PK's attitude toward life. It was theatre, but isn't that PK? Do you remember the Bad Suit contest on 24CH? Was any suit as glaringly bad or theatrical than PK's? So before we blame the team too much for 'letting it get to this stage', remember that it's exactly the type of scenario PK loves, pressure, high stakes and uber excitement. The way the whole process wrapped up suggested to me that the organization knew the outcome already ... that's not any insider info, just an outsider observation ... how else do you explain giving Subban more than he asked for going into arbitration? ... Cheers.
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Post by UberCranky on Aug 4, 2014 14:21:41 GMT -5
The way the whole process wrapped up suggested to me that the organization knew the outcome already ... that's not any insider info, just an outsider observation ... how else do you explain giving Subban more than he asked for going into arbitration? ... Cheers. Arbitration and long term offer are two different things. PK has to ask as much as he can without sounding stupid. So he asked for 8.5 and the Habs offered 5.75, at which point they expected it to be somewhere in the middle. The Habs couldn't offer less then the previous contract and if PK said 10 million, the arbitrator would think he's greedy and crazy. In arbitration you get "current value" from a third person. Which would be in the 7 to 7.5 million range. That is the current range of his elite peers. Long term, is another calculation altogether. You are paying for what the player is worth in the lifetime of the contract. Today, PK is way overpaid. But.....let's go through the numbers....assuming a very reasonable 6% increase per annum. (It's not inflation rate, it's the increase in revenue). 2014-15.....69 2015-16.....73.14 2016-17.....77.53 2017-18.....82.18 2018-19.....87.11 2019-20.....92.34 2020-21.....97.88 2021-22.....103.75 Average.....85.37 IF/THEN IF you are paying Subban 7 million in 2014-15 dollars THEN you are paying him 85.37/69 is 1.237% which means you are paying Subban 1.237 x 7m = 8.67m OR at 1,237 x 7.5m = $9.27m Between the two you get.....in big fat round numbers......$9 million per season.
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Post by seventeen on Aug 4, 2014 14:22:39 GMT -5
Those are apples and oranges, Dis. The arbitration would have decided on his salary for a one year term, not an 8 year term. To sign him for 8 years, taking him into his UFA years, required a higher salary than an RFA season would. Also the arbitrator could have picked any figure between Montreal's number and PK's number, not just one or the other. PK could have ended up with a $6MM salary for one year. Then he's a year closer to UFA status and what would that cost you a year from now to take him further into his UFA years. What if they settle on another one year deal then? Etc. etc. What would Florida or Carolina offer to help fill the arena? Well, now those teams and the Leafs will just have to wait. It's nice to hear PK say that he'd have signed a 20 year deal with Montreal if he could, but then you wonder what he would have asked for. PK's a hoot. Let's hope the CAP goes up a good amount, so his salary doesn't handicap us. Edit: Damn you UberjoyousecstaticAddict. You beat me to the response.
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Post by UberCranky on Aug 4, 2014 14:29:29 GMT -5
Damn you UberjoyousecstaticAddict. You beat me to the response. You will be faster, stronger, smarter...when you are Eighteen.
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Post by UberCranky on Aug 4, 2014 14:36:27 GMT -5
My big issue is the lack of scoring and the decision to double down on Michel Therrien. The day I saw the MarcArena is the day I stop worrying about MThead. This is Bergs team, not MTheads. I do not have the slightest, tinniest doubt that The Berg will execute MThead with extreme prejudice if he thinks he is hurting the team.
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Post by UberCranky on Aug 4, 2014 14:36:46 GMT -5
Does this look like un-involved, detached General Manager to anyone?
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 4, 2014 14:46:28 GMT -5
The way the whole process wrapped up suggested to me that the organization knew the outcome already ... that's not any insider info, just an outsider observation ... how else do you explain giving Subban more than he asked for going into arbitration? ... Cheers. Arbitration and long term offer are two different things. PK has to ask as much as he can without sounding stupid. So he asked for 8.5 and the Habs offered 5.75, at which point they expected it to be somewhere in the middle. The Habs couldn't offer less then the previous contract and if PK said 10 million, the arbitrator would think he's greedy and crazy. In arbitration you get "current value" from a third person. Which would be in the 7 to 7.5 million range. That is the current range of his elite peers. Long term, is another calculation altogether. You are paying for what the player is worth in the lifetime of the contract. Today, PK is way overpaid. But.....let's go through the numbers....assuming a very reasonable 6% increase per annum. (It's not inflation rate, it's the increase in revenue). 2014-15.....69 2015-16.....73.14 2016-17.....77.53 2017-18.....82.18 2018-19.....87.11 2019-20.....92.34 2020-21.....97.88 2021-22.....103.75 Average.....85.37 IF/THEN IF you are paying Subban 7 million in 2014-15 dollars THEN you are paying him 85.37/69 is 1.237% which means you are paying Subban 1.237 x 7m = 8.67m OR at 1,237 x 7.5m = $9.27m Between the two you get.....in big fat round numbers......$9 million per season. That's a very good rundown of the process ... honestly the only thing I was hoping for was a fair shake ... what he's worth compared to his peers ... and looking over this process, I doubt he'll be the highest-paid d-man for long ... Cheers.
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Post by UberCranky on Aug 4, 2014 14:49:43 GMT -5
Okay, I'm drinking the Kool-Aid. I've been a Bergevin fan all along, in large part because I've liked the way he has addressed the off-ice personnel. I've thought for a long time that this was a huge gap in our organization, and in fact think that the Centennial Year collapse was in large part because of this gap. There was just no support system in place, and if you're trying to build a house with no support… well, you know how that goes. Now having said that, I didn't get it. I didn't see "the plan". Until now. I was looking at capgeek yesterday, and like Morpheus it suddenly all came together for me. This upcoming season will be our playoff university, as Bob Gainey used to say, and we're going for it, all in, the season after. 2015-16. I think this last playoff run was a bit of a surprise, but this year Bergevin is really going to be auditioning/training his team on what it takes to be a Championship team. And those that fail, will be gone. Because 2015-16 is the year. Subban's bridge contract set that stage; we have five players coming off of ELCs next summer, and not a single one of them will be able to argue for anything other than a bridge contract. While that may not seem like all that big a deal, when you see guys like Jake Gardiner getting over $4 million, skipping the bridge, it comes together. Nathan Beaulieu, for example, will have to take a bridge, and that will save a million or so. Ditto, or perhaps more relevantly, Alex Galchenyuk and Brendan Gallagher. If your generational talent has to take a bridge, and the GM is prepared to let him sit out to get it, then what chance do Galchenyuk and Gallagher have? Or Tinordi? Bournival? They will all take bridge deals, and while it may seem short-sighted in the long run, we're not looking long run anymore. We're looking at 2015-16, and every dime saved will be needed for that season. Because if it shakes out the way I can see it shaking out, we will have the core of our team not only locked up, but in their primes. With several of them playing for their Subban-like long term contract (all the guys coming off the bridge). Others will be playing for their UFA lives. AND we could be looking at anywhere from $8-10 million in cap space, after the bridges are signed and whoever of Eller, Plekanec and Desharnais fails Playoff U. With a cap increase of course. So with all that extra money lying around we'll be in a position to go for a big fish. A very big fish. Like, Alexander Ovechkin big. Yeah, I said it. Alex Ovechkin. I think the stars could be lining up for us to land Ovechkin next year, possibly at the draft. Wouldn't that be something? You had me up until....Ovechkin. Of all the players in the NHL, did you really have to drop his name in this? As a Honors graduate of Machavellian Academy I get the conspiratorial logic, I really do, but that is peyote level. But.....and there are always a couple of butts.... Tell me how that would fit into Bergs idea of players who either give a damn or are damned? Did you see the lucrative offer he gave Vanishing? No offer you say? And he is going to trade assets for someone who is already practicing vanishing techniques?
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