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Post by Boston_Habs on Jan 19, 2016 12:11:06 GMT -5
It's very hard to separate the results from the underlying play. There are some weird statistical aberrations going on. The lack of "loser points" in the streak, the fact that we've had 5 games where we outshot the opposition by 15 shots or more (15!)... and lost 4 of those 5 games. The strong Corsi, but I believe team save percentage has been dead last in the NHL over the past 20 games. Something always kills us, and maybe that's what happens to losing teams. In St. Louis it was Condon and poor coaching by Therrien (Markov should NEVER be on the ice for 3-on-3. He's too slow).
As bad as Plekanec has been scoring goals (again, very unusual for a consistent 20 goal guy), I would put GALCHENYUK at the top of the list for "most disappointing forward". We complain about his usage, ice time, position C/W, etc. but this is Alex's 4th year in the league and he's on pace for a flat points year compared to 2014/15: 18 goals, 30 assists, 48 points. I though we needed more like 25-30 goals and 30-40 assists, or a 15-30 point improvement over last year. Sadly, I'm beginning to think he's just not going to get there. He doesn't have anywhere near the hands/release of Pacioretty or a guy like Kovalev. He makes a great "first move" but either loses the puck on the second move, doesn't find a guy in stride for a scoring chance, or takes a shot that is easily saved. He could be a tough guy to play with, with teammates never sure if he's going to pass/deke/shoot.
I'm not sure Berg should do anything at this point. Not the best time to trade guys or find a new coach. Best case we can hang around until (or if) Price gets back and see what happens then.
In the meantime, Go PATS!
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Post by blny on Jan 19, 2016 12:36:11 GMT -5
How can you expect Galchenyuk to progress when his linemates and ice time regress? He's done more, with less, than anyone on the team and certainly anyone in his draft class.
Year one, he spends much of the year playing with Gallagher and Prust. The line was quite effective. Gallagher got a ROTY nomination, and Galchenyuk wasn't undeserving.
Since that time, the best line he's been (that is a line he played more than one game with) was the EGG line. For reasons unexplained, the line was broken up, and has never been put back together. Coincidentally, it's also the only time Eller has had any stretch were he looked good on the wing.
Who's he playing with this year? Scrubs, largely. Bottom six guys who don't have natural offensive instinct. What's the result? He tries to do too much. He's shown time and time again that when he has capable line mates he can distribute the puck quite well, but he's playing with pluggers and plumbers. He's an offensive player alone on the ice. The opposition surrounds him like a swarm, and take the puck away. Find a guy in stride? His line mates have no instincts.
Ten games. Give him at least 10 games with Gallagher and Pacioretty. Not a period. Not a shift. Not one game. TEN. Otherwise, what's the point? How many coaches in the league are going to bury that player on a third line? If Roy had him, instead of MacKinnon, he'd being getting the ice time and line mates that Nathan gets. Plain and simple.
Alex came to camp in absolutely fantastic shape. He came to play. He's 21 going on 22. Yeah, he's gonna make mistakes. But he's not making more than Desharnais or Plekanec. Continuing to put Galchenyuk in positions to fail is no different than pulling out a screwdriver to hammer nails.
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Post by CentreHice on Jan 19, 2016 12:51:55 GMT -5
Is Chucky his own worst enemy? Or has it been his handling? Or has it been MB's failure to bring in other legit Top 6 forwards.
He was drafted as a centre…and spent the first 3 seasons on the wing…with a revolving door of linemates.
Now in his 4th season, he starts at centre…once again is moved back to the wing….with a variety of linemates.
How about finding chemistry?
How about performance from the management/coaching?
We suffered through that horrendous 2011-12 season…for what?
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Post by habsorbed on Jan 19, 2016 13:01:55 GMT -5
Chucky's handling has been a travesty. Talk about messing with a kid's head. Aside from the irrational mind games of MT, we also have MB piling on at his press conference. Chuck doesn't have to read between the lines to see that MT and MB do not think much of him. Perhaps it's tough love. But guess what, it ain't working. Some coddling would be nice.
My view is that our future very much depends on Chuck's progression. There are no other budding top 6 stars in the chest. Even a top draft choice this year will not have an impact for a few years. Chucky may be right on the cusp.
MT will have no bearing on the future success of this team except to undermine it the longer he stays put. Given how much we have invested in chuck, we should bring in a new coach to see what he can do with chuck and others. Mt is a disposable asset. And also MT is useless. MB can't have it both ways. Either MB is terrible at identifying,developing and trading for talent OR MT is a terrible coach. Either way MB wears it. So if I'm MB i'm dumping MT to see what a gentler, kinder, and certainly wiser coach can do with all the talent I have assembled.
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Post by blny on Jan 19, 2016 13:06:19 GMT -5
Chucky's handling has been a travesty. Talk about messing with a kid's head. Aside from the irrational mind games of MT, we also have MB piling on at his press conference. Chuck doesn't have to read between the lines to see that MT and MB do not think much of him. Perhaps it's tough love. But guess what, it ain't working. Some coddling would be nice. My view is that our future very much depends on Chuck's progression. There are no other budding top 6 stars in the chest. Even a top draft choice this year will not have an impact for a few years. Chucky may be right on the cusp. MT will have no bearing on the future success of this team except to undermine it the longer he stays put. Given how much we have invested in chuck, we should bring in a new coach to see what he can do with chuck and others. Mt is a disposable asset. And also MT is useless. MB can't have it both ways. Either MB is terrible at identifying,developing and trading for talent OR MT is a terrible coach. Either way MB wears it. So if I'm MB i'm dumping MT to see what a gentler, kinder, and certainly wiser coach can do with all the talent I have assembled. And all of THAT falls to Molson. How prepared can he be to see a #3 pick toil and be wasted? Even the best players don't become the best on their own. They get surrounded by capable line mates.
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Post by habsorbed on Jan 19, 2016 13:21:48 GMT -5
Chucky's handling has been a travesty. Talk about messing with a kid's head. Aside from the irrational mind games of MT, we also have MB piling on at his press conference. Chuck doesn't have to read between the lines to see that MT and MB do not think much of him. Perhaps it's tough love. But guess what, it ain't working. Some coddling would be nice. My view is that our future very much depends on Chuck's progression. There are no other budding top 6 stars in the chest. Even a top draft choice this year will not have an impact for a few years. Chucky may be right on the cusp. MT will have no bearing on the future success of this team except to undermine it the longer he stays put. Given how much we have invested in chuck, we should bring in a new coach to see what he can do with chuck and others. Mt is a disposable asset. And also MT is useless. MB can't have it both ways. Either MB is terrible at identifying,developing and trading for talent OR MT is a terrible coach. Either way MB wears it. So if I'm MB i'm dumping MT to see what a gentler, kinder, and certainly wiser coach can do with all the talent I have assembled. And all of THAT falls to Molson. How prepared can he be to see a #3 pick toil and be wasted? Even the best players don't become the best on their own. They get surrounded by capable line mates. Don't get me wrong, i'm no MB apologist but who's to say Chuck can't be surrounded by capable line mates on the current roster. Still looking for the EGG line to be reunited. The fact it has not happened during this slide is yet further confirmation that MT is pigheaded, narrow minded, and just plain stupid. Statiscally I'm betting the EGG line has been our most productive line over the last 3 years for the brief period it existed. Wouldn't you think it might, just might, be worth a try? Put DD back with Max if you have to, and let Pleks playing a checking role as 3rd line centre - he's certainly not contributing offensively. And let EGG be our #1 or 2 line.
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Post by blny on Jan 19, 2016 13:31:21 GMT -5
And all of THAT falls to Molson. How prepared can he be to see a #3 pick toil and be wasted? Even the best players don't become the best on their own. They get surrounded by capable line mates. Don't get me wrong, i'm no MB apologist but who's to say Chuck can't be surrounded by capable line mates on the current roster. Still looking for the EGG line to be reunited. The fact it has not happened during this slide is yet further confirmation that MT is pigheaded, narrow minded, and just plain stupid. Statiscally I'm betting the EGG line has been our most productive line over the last 3 years for the brief period it existed. Wouldn't you think it might, just might, be worth a try? Put DD back with Max if you have to, and let Pleks playing a checking role as 3rd line centre - he's certainly not contributing offensively. And let EGG be our #1 or 2 line. Oh he certainly can. Whether Berg fails to acquire more pieces, or fails to insert a coach who'll play the kid in a position to succeed, it ultimately falls on Molson.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jan 19, 2016 13:38:01 GMT -5
I agree with most of this, but at the same time it feels like a lot of excuses. Good players are able to produce in just about any environment and make the players around them better. I don't hold Therrien blameless, but I still expected more out of Alex this year.
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Post by seventeen on Jan 19, 2016 13:49:41 GMT -5
I think, Galchy's progression has been a combination of the above. We've seen enough flashes from Chucky to know he has the talent (Caveat: many of those flashes were from his first couple of years. There have been fewer the last two, which leads to ....) so either he hasn't done what he needs to progress or he's been handled poorly. He needs a coach with real patience and a teaching touch, but not a soft style. Chuck can be pushed I think, but needs opportunity as well.
I found Mike Yeo's comments interesting, and I mean that. Lots of positive things about Therrien, mainly centred around culture and structure. I found Yeo's opinion of his bench abilities to be beyond my imagination. Therrien doesn't see who works well together, and instead helps create a new word, 'blendering'. His judgments of who to play and who to sit are incomprehensible. He was recently asked why Carr was sent down and replied that "they wanted to give DSP a chance because of his physicality, blah, blah. That comment, frankly, is insulting. We know what DSP can do. Carr has scored 5 goals in 17 games, DSP 3 goals in 31 games. We need scoring badly, but DSP plays ahead of Carr. Don't you find that an insulting reason? Therrien has his reasons and in his mind they're perfectly logical. It might explain why he's on the cusp of being fired. Maybe its a numbers game. The correct response in that case is that "Daniel is just caught in a numbers game. We can't send Devante down because he'd be claimed off waivers (probably not) and we can send Daniel down without that concern. Daniel's proved his value and will get another chance in the near future". Bingo. Everyone's placated and the reason makes sense. Instead we get that doublespeak. He just doesn't like having his motives questioned. He's foolish.
He has no patience without instant results. That's why he hasn't put Chuck with Patches and Gally for 10 games. I'd really like to know what his defensive zone schemes are. From observations, they tend to fall apart a lot. Skilly put together some interesting numbers. Therrien seems to have success fairly early in his tenure with a team, usually accompanied by quality goaltending. Then, either the goaltending softens, or his players get tired of the message and the team regresses. If he has continuously pulled off playing his pet players ahead of more deserving ones, it's clear he's going to have trouble in the dressing room. That could be happening now. DD deserves 10-12 minutes a game at LW on the 3rd line with Eller. Period. Any time he's at centre, he's a liability. What a hypocrite Therrien is. He's given Chucky a reputation as an irresponsible defensive player when DD is worse but we hear not a peep about any of DD's deficiencies.
I repeat. I don't think he'll be fired until Molson loses his patience. It looks like Berg is willing to die on Mount Therrien.
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Post by franko on Jan 19, 2016 13:50:27 GMT -5
well, he lasted longer than I thought he would he may make it a month into the third season -- then again, what kind of players will he have to work with? That's on the GM. and aren't we also heaping a lot of blame on MB right now? and . . . he didn't. but the "not much hope" comment wasn't about the playoffs this year!
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Post by blny on Jan 19, 2016 13:57:58 GMT -5
I agree with most of this, but at the same time it feels like a lot of excuses. Good players are able to produce in just about any environment and make the players around them better. I don't hold Therrien blameless, but I still expected more out of Alex this year. Perhaps there's a fine line between excuses and reasons, but imo we're on the reasons side of that line.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 19, 2016 14:08:10 GMT -5
I agree with most of this, but at the same time it feels like a lot of excuses. Good players are able to produce in just about any environment and make the players around them better. I don't hold Therrien blameless, but I still expected more out of Alex this year. Perhaps there's a fine line between excuses and reasons, but imo we're on the reasons side of that line. I am pretty sure if you put a harness on a thoroughbred and hook him to a wagon with a couple of nags, they ain't winning the chuckwagon race. I like Eller, but Larry is not a top 6 forward, he is a good 3rd line centre imo. As for the rest of the guys Galchy has been with this year (other than the short stint on the top line) they have been other teams rejects, for the most part.
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Post by blny on Jan 19, 2016 14:17:21 GMT -5
Perhaps there's a fine line between excuses and reasons, but imo we're on the reasons side of that line. I am pretty sure if you put a harness on a thoroughbred and hook him to a wagon with a couple of nags, they ain't winning the chuckwagon race. I like Eller, but Larry is not a top 6 forward, he is a good 3rd line centre imo. As for the rest of the guys Galchy has been with this year (other than the short stint on the top line) they have been other teams rejects, for the most part. I was trying to come up with a thoroughbred or sprinter reference. Good job. I like Larry as a 3rd line center too. Give him hard workers, who play north south, and he'll chip in a bit. He always seems to up his game for the playoffs. If Berg were able to address scoring with the addition of a good winger, I'd have even considered the idea of going with Galch, DD, Eller - in that order. With Pleks signed, it means one or both of Eller and DD have to go imo. Give Pleks the defensive role with a couple of cheaper wingers to offset the cost of the line, then go after another center.
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Post by jkr on Jan 19, 2016 14:22:47 GMT -5
I am pretty sure if you put a harness on a thoroughbred and hook him to a wagon with a couple of nags, they ain't winning the chuckwagon race. I like Eller, but Larry is not a top 6 forward, he is a good 3rd line centre imo. As for the rest of the guys Galchy has been with this year (other than the short stint on the top line) they have been other teams rejects, for the most part. I was trying to come up with a thoroughbred or sprinter reference. Good job. I like Doc's example - the battleship vs. the rowboat.
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Post by blny on Jan 19, 2016 15:46:20 GMT -5
I was trying to come up with a thoroughbred or sprinter reference. Good job. I like Doc's example - the battleship vs. the rowboat. Ahh frigate!
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Post by Skilly on Jan 19, 2016 16:02:36 GMT -5
The problem we face is that we do not have 6 top-6 forwards. So putting Galchenyuk at Center between Pacioretty and Gallagher is really out of the question. We'd have no one on the bottom three lines.
If we put the EGG line back together, then we have to put a plumber on the first line.
We've had this problem for so long and I don't know why, but this year it is p*ssing me off more than ever before.
Unfortunately the best line-up, the most balanced line-up, we can put together given our current roster is
Pacioretty - Desharnais - Weise Eller - Galchenyuk - Gallagher Flieshmann - Plekanec - De La Rose Flynn - Mitchell - Byron
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 19, 2016 16:45:45 GMT -5
A different perspective from Darren Dreger ... check around the 1:30-mark ... from the people he's talked to, there's nothing imminent ... Cheers.
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Post by HFTO on Jan 19, 2016 17:53:41 GMT -5
Skilly can't disagree although I would have kept Carr up
Patch Pleks Carr
Eller Chucky Gally
Flesh DD Weisse
Flynn Mitchel DSP (DLR)
Bottom line Galchenyuk needs wingers at least give him Gally
HFTO
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Post by stoat on Jan 20, 2016 1:13:35 GMT -5
Apparently if he loses to the Bruins he's done .... Who's cheering for the Bruins?? Take it with a grain of salt but something has to give....not convinced since he just signed an extension around the time this slide started. I'm far far from a fan but he is handcuffed with a lack of elite talenT. That being said is poor in game management stubbornness and bias towards his type players is the main cause for this team not even being able to tread water. I do fear whom the replacement maybe ....I hope it's an outsider given this orgs failure to develop players. HFTO You may be underestimating the talent because the Habs did well in the 2014-15 regular season and started this one like a rocket. However, this coach seems to have drained the rocket fuel out of them, like some pernicious witch doctor who cast a spell on the athletes.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 20, 2016 6:33:05 GMT -5
He's still behind the bench ... Francois Gagnon was reacting to rumours ...
Cheers.
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Post by CentreHice on Jan 20, 2016 6:41:51 GMT -5
He's still behind the bench ... Francois Gagnon was reacting to rumours ... Cheers. Maybe Gagnon has a tape..... Seriously, how can Therrien still have the job by the end of today? Only in Montreal.....
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Post by blny on Jan 20, 2016 6:52:44 GMT -5
He's still behind the bench ... Francois Gagnon was reacting to rumours ... Cheers. Maybe Gagnon has a tape..... Seriously, how can Therrien still have the job by the end of today? Only in Montreal..... If they're gonna dump him/staff, it will have to happen soonish. The new coach would like to get in more than one practice before Saturday. If it happens, and they beat the Leafs Saturday, I hope the coach isn't standing on the bench/boards screaming to the heavens in ecstasy.
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Post by UberCranky on Jan 20, 2016 7:19:44 GMT -5
Today is a good day for a Therrienoscopy......
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Post by blny on Jan 20, 2016 7:53:21 GMT -5
Today is a good day for a Therrienoscopy...... That doesn't remove. Just cleans things out. We need a "Therrienotomy" or "Therrienectomy".
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 20, 2016 8:12:12 GMT -5
Today is a good day for a Therrienoscopy...... That doesn't remove. Just cleans things out. We need a "Therrienotomy" or "Therrienectomy". A Therrienoscopy would allow you to see the Therrien... to clean it out you would need a TherriENEMA... that would clean things out real good.
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Post by jkr on Jan 20, 2016 8:20:46 GMT -5
I listened to the TSN panel this morning and they didn't feel anything was imminent. I don't know - maybe they are trying to ride it out until the ASG. But this stretch is historically bad. It's like the Leaf collapses of the last couple of years that I took such delight in( karma?)
There just seems to be a losing atmosphere around this team, a feeling of no matter what they do it won't turn out right.
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Post by blny on Jan 20, 2016 8:24:37 GMT -5
That doesn't remove. Just cleans things out. We need a "Therrienotomy" or "Therrienectomy". A Therrienoscopy would allow you to see the Therrien... to clean it out you would need a TherriENEMA... that would clean things out real good. LOL
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 20, 2016 8:26:53 GMT -5
I listened to the TSN panel this morning and they didn't feel anything was imminent. I don't know - maybe they are trying to ride it out until the ASG. But this stretch is historically bad. It's like the Leaf collapses of the last couple of years that I took such delight in( karma?) There just seems to be a losing atmosphere around this team, a feeling of no matter what they do it won't turn out right. Heard Darren Dreger say that yesterday on TSN690 ... Francois Gagnon was reacting to a rumour and, as such, he has lost credibility with me ... I'm not going to worry about Michel Therrien being fired ... it's out of my control ... Cheers.
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Post by Skilly on Jan 20, 2016 9:12:54 GMT -5
I listened to the TSN panel this morning and they didn't feel anything was imminent. I don't know - maybe they are trying to ride it out until the ASG. But this stretch is historically bad. It's like the Leaf collapses of the last couple of years that I took such delight in( karma?) There just seems to be a losing atmosphere around this team, a feeling of no matter what they do it won't turn out right. Heard Darren Dreger say that yesterday on TSN690 ... Francois Gagnon was reacting to a rumour and, as such, he has lost credibility with me ... I'm not going to worry about Michel Therrien being fired ... it's out of my control ... Cheers. It's all Therrienatrics
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Post by mikeg on Jan 20, 2016 9:50:49 GMT -5
Maybe off topic and 4 years too late, but in hindsight it feels like they really messed up by starting chucky with the pros. He would have been better off in the AHL, playing a year or two as a center. Then again with Lefebvre there who knows what sort of damage that could have done. Or maybe we are just overestimating this kid's value. Maybe he just is not the #1 center we thought we drafted. It does happen. Maybe in another market he would have been able to develop right... who knows.
All that I know is that this team is sinking faster than anything I have seen. The blame has to be shared by everyone.
However after hearing the boys on the morning show today, I think they had a really strong point about a major deficiency here. Therrien has simply stayed the course. He has not tried anything new other than the standard line juggling parlor tricks he likes to pull.
They pointed to Anaheim where Boudreau realized his team was not scoirng and changed their strategy to a hard trap. This is where MT's weakness as a tactician and strategist is clearly evident. I am sure he is a great guy, and most likely a players coach (well at least a player who he likes players coach), but when it comes down to Xs and Os the guy is a freaking trainwreck.
It's sad, I mean I had such hope for the club when Bergy was hired; he came from a winning organization, seemed pretty smart with a modern and good vision. I cringed when he hired MT, but figured I would give him a chance because heck, it's his first hire he would certainly make sure to be diligent. He brought in tons of pro scouts and seemed to "get" it. But here we are, 4 years in and it's the same story. French coach who can't hack it; stubborn GM who can't adapt and an owner who is happy to print money. But hey... we give good ceremony so who cares.
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