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Post by darz on Dec 2, 2002 21:35:14 GMT -5
Well, we owe Audette 8 million or so, and he cleared waivers. To me, that means he has negative value at this point. Simply doing nothing and losing Rucinsky as a UFA would have been better than having a player with negative value. To me, the question isn't Audette&Chow vs Rucinsky and Asham - Rucinsky was leaving anyhow. But just imagine what we could have done with the salary from Audette and Chow - last summer a UFA took a long time to find a taker, and signed for about 6 million - Tony Amonte. If we'd had neither Audette nor Chow, we could have taken a run at him. Amonte and Asham sure looks better than Chow and Audette to me.... and even if we failed, why not have Berezin as our ageing scoring winger, on the last year of his contract, rather than guys with 3 and 2 years left ? If Berezin sucked, at least you wouldn't owe him 8 million bucks... A 5th, Asham, 3 million bucks or so, and team unity. Seems like quite a gamble to me. Anyhow, wouldn't knowing where Chow can play be part of player evaluation, something AS is supposed to be good at ? Oops..... Funny, people said that before camp, and yet, however badly any of the veterans played, and however well the kids played, it changed nothing. Zilch. Nada. Rien. Zippo. The roster was set before we even knew who was going to camp. (sarcasm mode on) That's a great way of developping prospects. (sarcasm mode off) 1. audette never cleared waivers...where did you hear that? when audette was helping our team get within a MT penalty away from the semi's last spring, were you thinking the same thing, i'm not a huge audette fan, but negative value, i don't think so, as for signing amonte, amonte never wanted to come to mont. 2. if money is a problem, i'm sure AS could move hackett, audette and chow in a heartbeat. giving away players for nothing is not smart!!! 3. as far as the roster being set before camp, it probable was. komo, hossa, and just about every other prospect needed more seasoning in the minors, that was common knowledge before training camp opened. didn't you talk about rushing prospects up in another thread, i believe about theo?
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Post by PTH on Dec 2, 2002 21:53:17 GMT -5
1. audette never cleared waivers...where did you hear that? when audette was helping our team get within a MT penalty away from the semi's last spring, were you thinking the same thing, i'm not a huge audette fan, but negative value, i don't think so, as for signing amonte, amonte never wanted to come to mont. OK, nothing "official" about the waivers thing, but it was widely rumoured through decent sources, and I for one beleive it. Audette is old, small, injury-prone, and needs to produce to be worth anything toa team, and he isn't producing, and he's owed 8 million bucks. I don't think many teams would want him. As to last season - of course I cheered when he scored, he's a HAb. But I also knew that I was against his acquisition. Moving players isn't that easy. Teams rarely want to just pick up large contracts - especially for one-dimensional players like Audette and Chow. Montreal is a very average team, and Chow can't even play regularly, are you sure someone else would want him ? As to Hack - now that he's playing well he could be moved, but over the summer I'm fairly sure he could have cleared waivers. Anyhow, sometimes it's better to cut your losses, and try with someone else. Maybe they did need seasoning. So what ? I'm not saying they should have open slots just waiting for them, but they should have a chance. Do you think the rookies will go all-out when they know they could score 3 goals a game and it wouldn't mean a thing ?
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Post by Viper on Dec 2, 2002 21:54:05 GMT -5
Well, I think this whole debate revolves around whether or not you think Savard has a master plan involving the kids, or not. If, like some, you think Savard is just trying to buy some time for the blue-chippers to arrive, then yeah, the payroll, and the playoffs, and the way the team looks now, are of little consequence. ... I'm half way on this one At first this is what i thought but the continuous employment and acquistion of the older guy's definately leaves many a doubt in my mind. I'm fine with the concept but not fine with the way it seems to be unfolding. On the other hand, if you think Savard really thought the team he constructed right now had a chance of doing something, if you believe this is the team he wants to go with, and the model he wants to continue using, then maybe you are right in questioning his judgement.... This is what i'm thinking as a result of what has unfolded and after 20 games of line juggling and poor play with the exception of a few I wonder why nothing is getting done beyond his tongue lashing between devil games. I have to be concerned that somehow This is what he wants. While it would be easy to dismiss the latter argument, it can't really be ignored. What is it now? 13 straight +30 year old veterans? That's overloading, anyway you look at it. Could he have not gotten more guys like Kilger, Zednik and Bulis? ... Exactly if he's able to expend cash and assets to make acquisitions and is apparently such an excellent evaluator of talent why is it that our team has become such a Clusterfreak even if it is in the short term hypothetically. There's no reason why the short term fix could be appropriate player's positionally or as effective role player's instead of the large mass of right wingers overpaid underachieving vet's and castaway's we have. The way the team looks and the so called talent evaluation specialist is a contradiction IMO. Personally, I think Savard really does have option one in mind, the buy time option. But he went a little too far, and left his team with little flexibility in the short term. Not to mention an expensive, mediocre, and lets face it, boring team... I hope your right and Option one is the true plan because if it isn't it's gonna be a long long painful struggle watching this team for the next few season's.
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Post by Viper on Dec 2, 2002 22:01:54 GMT -5
Maybe they did need seasoning. So what ? I'm not saying they should have open slots just waiting for them, but they should have a chance. Do you think the rookies will go all-out when they know they could score 3 goals a game and it wouldn't mean a thing ? Amen it seems no matter what guys on the team are doing they aren't getting rewarded let alone the kids. Audette getting tons of PP time and opportunity can't even outscore Bulis who faces top offensive units as a 3rd line checker. Bulis recently got demoted to the 4th on the night of the massacre the devils gave us for his efforts. Hainsey outplays his defense partner in Quintal and for that rides the pines. You hit the nail on the head there PTH. these guys aren't stupid and it must be completely demoralizing knowing no matter what they do there's not a hope in heck they'll get a shot. Look at Ward i'd have him up here over all our right winger's just because of the work ethic and effort he has shown he Leads the AHL in scoring for goodness sake and while i'm not the biggest Ward fan i must admit that deserves at least some consideration.
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Post by MPLABBE on Dec 2, 2002 22:07:42 GMT -5
A 5th, Asham, 3 million bucks or so, and team unity. Seems like quite a gamble to me. Anyhow, wouldn't knowing where Chow can play be part of player evaluation, something AS is supposed to be good at ? Oops..... I still want to know if he acquired Chow THINKING he could be a LWer or AS made the move thinking we could go with 3 offensive lines and go with Audi/Chow/Petrov on the right side?
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Post by MPLABBE on Dec 2, 2002 22:10:54 GMT -5
OK, nothing "official" about the waivers thing, but it was widely rumoured through decent sources, and I for one beleive it. Audette is old, small, injury-prone, and needs to produce to be worth anything toa team, and he isn't producing, and he's owed 8 million bucks. I don't think many teams would want him. As to last season - of course I cheered when he scored, he's a HAb. But I also knew that I was against his acquisition. Correct me if I am wrong PTH but usually when you put a guy on waivers you want to send him down? Or is there another kind of waivers where teams put big salaries guys on? Yes. A team in trouble with another disgruntled player could definitely be interested. Problem for prioblem kind of swap.
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Post by PTH on Dec 2, 2002 22:13:09 GMT -5
Correct me if I am wrong PTH but usually when you put a guy on waivers you want to send him down? Or is there another kind of waivers where teams put big salaries guys on? Yes. A team in trouble with another disgruntled player could definitely be interested. Problem for prioblem kind of swap. 1- you can put a guy on waivers, and afterwards decide what to do with him. Once he's cleared waivers you send him down, or don't, it's your call. 2 - Great, getting another overpaid scoring winger who isn't scoring..... wouldn't really solve much.
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Post by MPLABBE on Dec 2, 2002 22:16:04 GMT -5
1: thanks
2: what if the guy is a UFA at the end of the year.
Basically you are saying you would dump Chow for anything to get his salary off the books?
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Post by PTH on Dec 2, 2002 22:24:03 GMT -5
1: thanks 2: what if the guy is a UFA at the end of the year. Basically you are saying you would dump Chow for anything to get his salary off the books? 2 - I doubt anyone will want to pick up 3 million in salary for a guy who's sitting these days. Then again, maybe we can get a youngish guy with grit - like Asham or Malhotra. Dumping Chow? no, I think he deserves to actually get some playing time before he's taken out and shot. Audette, yes. If we no longer had to pay his salary, I'd be thrilled. That's the meaning of my "take them out and shoot them" phrase, BTW - it's to say IMO the guys value is below that of his contract, and can't be moved unless we pick up such a huge chunk of salary that we really might as well buy them out. A buyout is 2/3's of the money a player is owed. ie, about 5.5 million for Audette.
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Post by Viper on Dec 2, 2002 22:26:57 GMT -5
A buyout is 2/3's of the money a player is owed. ie, about 5.5 million for Audette. Can't we at least inquire about some food for the flights or something in a trade. Even if it's mac and cheese we should get something for audi at least ;D
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Post by montreal on Dec 3, 2002 0:38:51 GMT -5
I won't get caught in specifics, since I'm no top-notch judge of talent. Then again, no one is. Players sometimes surprise you, and it's my firm belief that a well-organised team has to have the flexibility to deal with events as they unfold. Peter Popovic. Remember him ? Training camp 1994, basically, no one had heard of the guy, he came to camp, impressed like he11, and made the team. Right now, it doesn't matter who did how well in camp, the roster was set before camp even opened. Quintal wasn't that great in the playoffs, but yeah, I would have considered moving him so that we could keep perhaps Robidas, the idea being that if Komisarek were ready, then Robidas is expendable. OR at least you don't re-sign Dykhuis. I don't care which of the vets AS chooses to let go, but somewhere along the line you have to make room for kids. I'm not saying we need to have open slots ready to give to the kids, but we do need to have cheap spare parts on the 4th line who can be demoted when needed. Lindsay and Bouillon are exactly what this team needs for the role players - ie, fillers, who can do the job but who are expendable. What hope does any forward have of making the team when a proven scorer like Chow sits out regularly ? If it were just the "short term", yeah, I'd be OK with it. But Quintal, Traverse, Rivet, McKay, Dykhuis and others will be around all the way till next season ends. That's an awful long time to have kids sitting idly by, with no hope of making the team. The roster was set before camp? Well if so maybe they wanted it that way, since no one was ready. Hainsey got a shot, and didn't show much. Ribeiro would have, but was injured. The only prospects that I see that were close to ready, Garon, Ward, Hainsey, Hossa. Did I miss any? Garon, couldn't beat out Hackett. Ward has 1 full season under his belt. Hainsey got a small chance, and wasn't very good. And Hossa has very little pro experience, but IMO, would have the best chance, seeing as though our weakest spot is LW. Quintal and Souray, IMO were our best defensmen, and Quintal was even good at the end of the season. So why move him, for Robidas who was a team worse -25. Yes hindsight it may be a good ideal, but Savard doesn't have the luxury, and it was doubtful at best that Komisarek would be ready. Ok so you dont resign Dykhuis who was a +16 with no one close to him in +/- (2nd was brezzy +9). Now it looks like a great ideal, but over the summer, that move would get some heat, cause the return would likely be poor. As for having open spots, well I don't think they need to be open, but when you see someone is ready, a spot needs to be opened. Who's ready? Ward, Garon, Hainsey? So next summer isn't short term? Oh boy
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Post by Rhiessan on Dec 3, 2002 7:08:58 GMT -5
Well I'm gonna defend AS on the roster again With the pure amount of injuries this team has gone through in the last couple of years can you really blame AS for overstocking a bit. When I look back at AS's deals that are affecting the roster now I also try and remember what was going on at the time. So in no paticular order... *Gilmour-Signed in the first place to help absorb the loss of Sak's, signed again for insurance(Saku's almost inhuman recovery is totally uncharted waters) and leadership. *McKay-Signed to address some grit and size problems. Did I mention he's french. *Audette-Aquired for scoring, I believe at the time we were desperate for a right handed shooting winger with hands. Did I mention he's french. *Czerkawski-Aquired at the draft. Mike Milbury comes up to you and offers you a proven 20+ goal scorer for a marginal 4th liner do you really even blink before saying yes. *Perreault-Free agent signing. Needed a 2nd line scoring center to take some pressure off Sak's. Did I mention he's french. *Juneau and Dackell-Aquired for their two way play and special teams clout. Provided a solid 3rd line which we really didn't have. Did I mention Juneau's french. *Kilger-Aquired to bring a much needed physical presence with speed. *Zednik and Bulis-Was a trade deadline deal. Washington was going to the show and we weren't. They wanted Linden for a playoff run we wanted youth with an upside(boy what an upside ) *Lindsay-Aquired to add some grit going down the stretch. *Blouin-Needed an enforcer at forward. Did I mention he's french. *Quintal-Needed size on the blueline and he wanted to come back. Did I mention he's french. Most of these deals were made with a specific need in mind that AS felt couldn't be filled anytime soon with farmhands and to provide a cushion against injuries. Plus most of this was done while giving up very little. To say now that he went a little overboard just doesn't cut it in my books. Even with the roster crowded as it is I feel it would be a mistake for AS to force a deal right now(with the exception of Audette) it's still too early. If the team starts falling off the chart fine then go for the shake up but as long as they stay in the hunt and get closer to the trade deadline some of these spare parts' value will increase dramaticaly. This will allow AS the chance to really get the returns we are all looking for. With AS's history for developing prospects if he doesn't feel that it's gonna hurt anyone spending most of the year on the farm then I'm inclined to trust him. Oh and I'm sure you noticed that I went a little out of my way to point out the french thing. This goes back to something I read/heard about. AS and Pat Quinn were both asked if you had a choice between two very simular player's, one french and the other english which would you choose? Of course AS said french and PQ said english. All I'm getting at here is that sometimes we don't always get the very best player available but blaming AS for this would be absurd. This is Montreal after all and a french player is more valuable here especially when it comes to marketing and bringing the fans out. ;D
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Dec 3, 2002 15:54:07 GMT -5
For one of the rare times I entirely agree with PTH on something Well written post bud! My thoughts exactly! One of the rare times I entirely agree with PTH. Savard is NOT stupid. Even Houle wasn't stupid. They are both experienced hockey men who know the game inside and out. They know what goes on in the locker as well as practice, not just the happenings on ice during games that we see. Savard has made some mistakes (errors in judgement). He has to swallow his pride and correct them. (So long MT).
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Dec 3, 2002 15:58:34 GMT -5
Well I'm gonna defend AS on the roster again With the pure amount of injuries this team has gone through in the last couple of years can you really blame AS for overstocking a bit. When I look back at AS's deals that are affecting the roster now I also try and remember what was going on at the time. So in no paticular order... *Gilmour-Signed in the first place to help absorb the loss of Sak's, signed again for insurance(Saku's almost inhuman recovery is totally uncharted waters) and leadership. *McKay-Signed to address some grit and size problems. Did I mention he's french. *Audette-Aquired for scoring, I believe at the time we were desperate for a right handed shooting winger with hands. Did I mention he's french. *Czerkawski-Aquired at the draft. Mike Milbury comes up to you and offers you a proven 20+ goal scorer for a marginal 4th liner do you really even blink before saying yes. *Perreault-Free agent signing. Needed a 2nd line scoring center to take some pressure off Sak's. Did I mention he's french. *Juneau and Dackell-Aquired for their two way play and special teams clout. Provided a solid 3rd line which we really didn't have. Did I mention Juneau's french. *Kilger-Aquired to bring a much needed physical presence with speed. *Zednik and Bulis-Was a trade deadline deal. Washington was going to the show and we weren't. They wanted Linden for a playoff run we wanted youth with an upside(boy what an upside ) *Lindsay-Aquired to add some grit going down the stretch. *Blouin-Needed an enforcer at forward. Did I mention he's french. *Quintal-Needed size on the blueline and he wanted to come back. Did I mention he's french. Most of these deals were made with a specific need in mind that AS felt couldn't be filled anytime soon with farmhands and to provide a cushion against injuries. Plus most of this was done while giving up very little. To say now that he went a little overboard just doesn't cut it in my books. Even with the roster crowded as it is I feel it would be a mistake for AS to force a deal right now(with the exception of Audette) it's still too early. If the team starts falling off the chart fine then go for the shake up but as long as they stay in the hunt and get closer to the trade deadline some of these spare parts' value will increase dramaticaly. This will allow AS the chance to really get the returns we are all looking for. With AS's history for developing prospects if he doesn't feel that it's gonna hurt anyone spending most of the year on the farm then I'm inclined to trust him. Oh and I'm sure you noticed that I went a little out of my way to point out the french thing. This goes back to something I read/heard about. AS and Pat Quinn were both asked if you had a choice between two very simular player's, one french and the other english which would you choose? Of course AS said french and PQ said english. All I'm getting at here is that sometimes we don't always get the very best player available but blaming AS for this would be absurd. This is Montreal after all and a french player is more valuable here especially when it comes to marketing and bringing the fans out. ;D Can't overlook the irony of PQ preferring English. I'd like to think that if a team has a chance at a Lemieux or Iginla the language doesn't matter.
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Post by Viper on Dec 3, 2002 16:31:59 GMT -5
Rhiessan great post and that language thing bother's me to no end. I understand what you're saying about fans etcetera but A winning franchise is what the fans want more than a frenchmen, Englishmen, Russian, Polack, Swiss, Jamaican, Or american. At least i'd hope the Francophone fans want that more than a specific language player. Equal talent fine take the french guy it just makes sense but to me it seems that it's an underlying hinderance to the organization and i really don't like it. Of course maybe i'm just full of it in my thinking but for some reason my mind can't wrap around the concept of getting a player based on his Native land.
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Dec 3, 2002 17:17:55 GMT -5
I honestly don't believe that the language issue is a big a deal as the press and fans make it out to be. Savard is a very smart hockey man and like all other hockey men looks first at a player's size and skill, closely followed by character and then...and maybe not at all...where they were born. I do think the french press (not all but some) make issues over a players origin but if anybody is building a team that can contend for the cup then they cannot look at the language they speak. Lets give Savard some credit for being at least that smart.
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Post by PTH on Dec 3, 2002 23:30:09 GMT -5
The roster was set before camp? Well if so maybe they wanted it that way, since no one was ready. Hainsey got a shot, and didn't show much. Only got a shot because Souray is hurt and Robidas was lost to waivers, along with Bouillon. He had to clear waivers to go down, so he had to get a shot. You expect players to break through on a given schedule. It doesn't happen like that. Sometimes players just blossom, and you have to have some flexibility to given them a chance at the right time. Quintal was a decent 3d pairing guy, no more, don't start to overrate his past contributions. Robidas did badly playing the wrong side. Dykhuis has had constant brain cramps over the years, I wanted him dumped this summer already. I don't care about return on a guy we got on waivers... As to "opening a spot", that's hard to do with several marginal NHLers making 1.5 million or more ahead of you...
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Post by PTH on Dec 3, 2002 23:33:48 GMT -5
as for signing amonte, amonte never wanted to come to mont. Well, we didn't have the cash or a roster spot for him, so no, he wouldn't want to come. Otherwise, there are a lot of players in this league, when you have 6 million available, someone will be available at some point. And would Berezin really have done worse than Audette (especially) and Chow have done to date ? We could have just kept Berezin....
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Post by PTH on Dec 3, 2002 23:37:39 GMT -5
I do think the french press (not all but some) make issues over a players origin but if anybody is building a team that can contend for the cup then they cannot look at the language they speak. Lets give Savard some credit for being at least that smart. Having a minimum number of players who can speak the fans language is good, and I think AS is smart enough to realise that - we won't go for the local kid with a 1sr round pick, but a 4th line spare part the local kid is the smart choice.
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Post by PTH on Dec 3, 2002 23:47:37 GMT -5
*Gilmour-Signed in the first place to help absorb the loss of Sak's, signed again for insurance(Saku's almost inhuman recovery is totally uncharted waters) and leadership. Yup, and while that move looks bad now, I can't blame him for making it one bit. McKay ? French ? huh ? He speaks passable French and is from the area, but he's not French-speaking. You don't acquire the player, you acquire the contract. Audette came with a 12 million price tag, and refused to come here over the summer - not good. If it looks too good to be true, it probably is. And what's the use of getting chow if you don't give him a real chance ? French-speaking boy turns down equivalent Chicago offer (probably worth more $$$ once taxes are counted in) to come back home, and yet people bash him for his language. Haven't been against this move, few are. Juneau wanted to come home too, but I guess we should have turned him down with hin French name and origins and all. It's not just the acquisitions, it's the long-term signings. Look at the defense - Traverse, Brisebois, Rivet and Dykhuis got extensions under AS. At some point there has to be room for youth... OK, I hope you're kidding. I really do. You don't get spare parts for free and sell them off for anything of consequence... AS's actual role in developing players is very hard to figure out, let's not give him more credit than he's due. It's not like the Sens had developped that many North American players, and AS was a North American scout, and European kids stayed in Europe, so it's not as if AS had had much of a role...
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Post by Rhiessan on Dec 4, 2002 5:35:23 GMT -5
Alright PTH some good points but you got me all wrong on the french thing. I probably should of explained myself further. The average french-canadian player tends to be more skilled offensively and the average english-canadian player tends to be a little grittier. All you have to do is look at the QMJHL,OHL and WHL to figure this one out. The QMJHL is an offensive league with alot less dump and chase/crash and bang and alot more rushing/run and gun. I have absolutly no problem with alot of french player's coming to Montreal to play an offensive style but when they get here and then take away from their strengths and instincts playing under a defensive system then I do have a problem. I don't look at it as a french player being a waste I look at it as a waste of a french player. Right now we play alot of offence minded guys in a defensive style with a weak one man forecheck that ends up relying on our goalies. If this was football it would be like starting the game in a prevent defence with wide receivers instead of cornerbacks and saying we're not gonna pressure your QB, he can hold ball as long as he wants, waste as much time as he wants, we won't allow the 1 deep pass for 60 yards but will allow you to tire out our D with 10 passes of 6 yards. Completly ABSURD! This team is suposed be fast right? Well how come every time I look it seems like they're skating backwards? Wait a minute that's because every time the other team even just looks like it could get possession of the puck we ARE skating backwards! How about making them beat us in their zone and in the nuetral zone instead of just giving it to them. What's worse, taking a chance or giving a chance, they are NOT one in the same. Allowing 30-40 shots a game with a defensive system is rediculous, allowing 30-40 shots with a an offensive system would almost be acceptible. I'll take my chances with our goalies in a shoot out as opposed to taking no chances and just having our goalies in a shoot on.
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Post by montreal on Dec 4, 2002 16:48:40 GMT -5
Only got a shot because Souray is hurt and Robidas was lost to waivers, along with Bouillon. He had to clear waivers to go down, so he had to get a shot. You expect players to break through on a given schedule. It doesn't happen like that. Sometimes players just blossom, and you have to have some flexibility to given them a chance at the right time. Quintal was a decent 3d pairing guy, no more, don't start to overrate his past contributions. Robidas did badly playing the wrong side. Dykhuis has had constant brain cramps over the years, I wanted him dumped this summer already. I don't care about return on a guy we got on waivers... As to "opening a spot", that's hard to do with several marginal NHLers making 1.5 million or more ahead of you... Yes Souray was hurt so Hainsey got a shot. So if Souray wasn't hurt, do you put a rookie with 1 year of pro experience into your lineup over Souray, or Markov, or Dykhuis after a +16 season. As for Ribs, yes to had to clear waivers, but he played well in camp, IMO, so he should have gotten a shot. He's back now and not playing well, so he's been sitting out. Sounds right to me. He showed some very good things last year and in camp this year, but you make it sound like he was only up cause he can't be sent down. How do you know that? I expect players to work hard in camp, and beat out a veteran. So far I havent seen that yet. I was disappointed in Hossa's camp, as I would have liked to see him do more in camp. So on a small team like ours, you would rather have Robidas over Quintal? I like Robidas, as he has more skill, but he's so small and gets knocked around so easy. Quintal started out brutal, but has been better. I do agree that Quintal is a 3rd pairing defencemen, but you don't agree that he was our best defencemen in the playoffs? I thought him and Souray were very good against boston, but thats just my opinion. I don't like Dykhuis at all, but again its hard to justify dropping your +/- leader. Today its easy to say, get rid of Dykhuis, but when it was the summer time, and Dykhuis is coming off a +16 season with little offence added in that number, its not as easy to say Savard shold have gotten rid of him.
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Post by MPLABBE on Dec 4, 2002 16:51:04 GMT -5
Souray was our best d-man in the playoffs.
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