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Post by PTH on Jan 29, 2003 21:24:38 GMT -5
Apparently there is some bad history between AS and Eric's dad Guy. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Guy is now, or had been coaching a relative of AS ( son I believe) and of course ice-time etc. has been questioned, therefore Eric was shipped off to Utah, out of sight. I say that Eric had zero chance to ever progress in this organization. Surely one of you hawks out there know more about this story, my memory ain't what it used to be. I'd never heard about any of this before reading something on HF 30 minutes ago. I read the papers quite a bit, so I think it might be a lot of people who presume to see a problem based on circumstancial evidence. Wouldn't be the first time, especially on the 'net. I think Eric going to Utah was a good idea myself - get some peace and quiet to concentrate on his game and not have too much media and fan pressure. Even seemed to be working... |
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Post by rocky on Jan 29, 2003 21:35:10 GMT -5
I'd never heard about any of this before reading something on HF 30 minutes ago. I read the papers quite a bit, so I think it might be a lot of people who presume to see a problem based on circumstancial evidence. Wouldn't be the first time, especially on the 'net. Yes your right Paul, I can only remember hearing this right after Eric was shipped out to Utah. Although it could have been an internet item, I don't think that I heard it as a rumor type item from a fan. Of course, you living in Quebec City would certainly have a pulse on that scene. Anyway its all water under the bridge now, lets hope that this 2nd rounder becomes significant down the road. I saw Eric play several times in Jr., the guy could sure shoot the puck, its really too bad that he didn't pan out for us. |
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Post by PTH on Jan 29, 2003 21:39:45 GMT -5
Oh, and I think I figured out the rationale behind this deal.
I think Chouinard's contract was up, he's playing his 3d season in the AHL. I'm assuming his contract didn't kick in somehow when he played 6 playoff games in 98-99 in Fredericton.
AS had the choice to re-sign him or move him....
At this point in the season, the Flyers can still give him a long look, and at the very worst dump him this summer in any case, though I doubt they'll do that after giving up a 2nd rounder. But hey, with Clarke, you never know.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jan 29, 2003 21:41:20 GMT -5
Fair is Fair. I am the first guy to criticize Savard when he makes a trade I think is bad. I like this one very much. Very very much. A second round pick is not the same as a mid-first round pick that Chew was, but Chewy wasn't much of a first round pick. As they said in "Dumb and Dumber", "Just when I think you couldn't do anything dumber, you turn it around and totally redeem yourself"! Way to go Andre, I like this one very much!! A young player on our #2 minor league team for a second round pick. Maybe Eric was too big for St. Andre's plans for forward lines?  |
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Post by seventeen on Jan 29, 2003 21:56:04 GMT -5
Now...will the AS bashers stop saying he deals draft picks for no reason? Moi?  Really, now. I wish he'd stop stockpiling these useless draft choices and start picking up NHL ready bodies. Good deal in my opinion. I've not seen Chouinard play, but everything I've heard suggests he plays on the perimeter. I hate guys like that. Even if you're not a banger, you have to go to the net. Between that aspect of his game and his questionable positioning and skating...you have to figure the odds of him making it are low. Heck, Clarke will trade for anyone over 6'2", no matter what else they have going or not going for them. A 2nd rounder in a deep draft (where the odds of a 2nd rounder succeeding are probably closer to 50% than 33%) makes a lot of sense to me. Keep em coming Andre. I've always thought AS was a better GM when his wallet was zipped shut than when the vault was open. Another salary dump, even if it wasn't a big amount (relatively). |
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Post by PTH on Jan 29, 2003 21:59:41 GMT -5
Another salary dump, even if it wasn't a big amount (relatively). Actually, you can see it as a bit of a contract dump, it opens up one more spot among our 50 allowed contracts. The kid drafted with the 2nd rounder won't need to be signed for a year or two. So now we can trade to get Dyment back !  |
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Post by Patty Roy on Jan 29, 2003 22:07:09 GMT -5
Got this from a poster on HF, but maybe AS can eventually turn our two second round picks into another 1st rounder?
Just a thought, but this trade could open the door to the Habs having another 2 picks in the first round...
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Post by Ryan on Jan 29, 2003 22:17:38 GMT -5
Getting a second rounder for a kid that was never going to play on this team is pretty good to me.
That's more than I thought Chewy was worth, so to me it's a good deal.
I guess we'll know in about 7 or 8 years ;D
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Post by Yeti on Jan 29, 2003 22:19:06 GMT -5
Savard said he will try very hard to bring Perezhogin to North America next year, maybe even Higgins. Milroy might also make the jump. Chouinard was just being pushed lower and lower on our prospects list. This is a great trade, 2 second round picks in a deep draft, I think we now a good foundation in terms of youth, it will be even better. We will be one of the top team in terms of young talents.
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Post by Vichab on Jan 29, 2003 22:20:06 GMT -5
A few thoughts;
1) Flyers 2nd round equals about 50th overall. not particularly high in my mind.
2) It's hard not to blame Clark for coming back to the well to get another high scoring winger from the habs organization;
3) if gagne is behind this let's hope this doesn't have the same result as when clark got the flyers to get reggie leach.
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Post by JohnnyVerdun on Jan 29, 2003 22:20:44 GMT -5
Savard's not done. He'll add another or perhaps even two mid to late round picks before the deadline. The likely candidates are Dykhuis and Petrov. Couple of thoughts on these two:
Always liked Petrov. Still do. But I wonder if Czerk keeps up his play whether Savard and Julien may decide that they can part with Petrov, even with Audette out of the picture. Who knows, they may even be thinking Jason Ward for the fourth line spot, and having Ward in the lineup (next year) will provide some depth in the event that a RW goes down to injury.
As for Dykhuis, it seems to me that everybody in the Habs org prefers Traverse. For one thing, they may have reason to believe that Pat still has some upside in him on account of his age. Plus, he usuallys shows a bit more poise with the puck than Dykhuis and is definitely the better passer of the two. He has his lapses of sanity now and again but he doesn't seem to lose it alltogether or for very long. In any case, it wouldn't surprise me to see them choose the cheaper and younger of the two as a seventh d-man for the next year or two. Dykhuis has just flat out failed to gain a foothold on a left side that was more wide open than ever with Souray out of the mix. Not good for Karl.
A 5th for Petrov and a 7th for Dykhuis.
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Post by Patty Roy on Jan 29, 2003 22:41:44 GMT -5
A 5th for Petrov and a 7th for Dykhuis. Call me overly optimistic, but i think we could get more for both of those guys. I would try and move Petrov for a guy like Eric Rasmussen. Dykhuis, well i would say something in the 5th to 7th range would be ok. Hossa-Koivu-Zednik Bulis-Perreault-Sundstrom Kilger-Gilmour-Czerkawski Rasmussen-Juneau-McKay |
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Post by TheHabsfan on Jan 29, 2003 23:04:19 GMT -5
I think that it's a great deal by AS. It's quite obvious that EC wasn't part of the plans anymore and would never play for the habs. I agree that a second round pick for the Flyers isn't that high, but hey, we got Markov at much lower pick than that. Draft picks are always a crap shoot, as it is plain to see with EC. Some work out, and some don't. But, I think that the second round pick, whomever it turns out to be, will have as good a chance at making the club as EC would have. cheers  |
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Post by Psycorp on Jan 30, 2003 0:32:04 GMT -5
I'm gonna go against the flow there, i'm not happy about the trade at all. Who would have tought Jason Ward would have a spectacular offensive this year, finally injury free? i'm expecting Chouinard to have a year like that next year or the year after, some prospect( especially the ones with size) put things together later than others. 23-24 y/o aren't an old age to break out, he could have been worth the wait. BUT, Savard is renowned for his skill at evaluating young talent so i guess i'll have to rely on his greater knowledge, i'm just a "gerant d'estrade" after all |
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Post by PTH on Jan 30, 2003 0:58:15 GMT -5
I'm gonna go against the flow there, i'm not happy about the trade at all. Who would have tought Jason Ward would have a spectacular offensive this year, finally injury free? i'm expecting Chouinard to have a year like that next year or the year after, some prospect( especially the ones with size) put things together later than others. 23-24 y/o aren't an old age to break out, he could have been worth the wait. You aren't going that much against the flow.... most on here like the trade because AS had given up on Chewie anyhow - not because they themselves had given up. |
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Post by Montrealer on Jan 30, 2003 1:26:03 GMT -5
I like this trade.
The guy has 24 points (12 goals, 12 assists) in 32 games in the AHL for Utah this season. That, along with 16 PIM. That ranks sixth on this team of Dallas Stars hopefuls and NHL has-beens and never-weres. Eric Landry is having a much, much more impressive season, for example.
Sure, he's huge. Who cares? He has a grand total of 40 penalty minutes in 165 career AHL games! He's a perimeter player, all right, and in my mind the top, very very top of his potential is maybe developing into a lesser version of Mikael Renberg.
A lesser version of Mikael Renberg would be the one who fell out of favour in Philly and got shipped to TB. Not the version on the Legion of Doom line nor the one in Toronto now. The one that looked like he was a couple of steps away from heading back to Europe.
Granted he might score 25 goals in the NHL one day. He'd do it only if he was on the top line, and only with a talented passer feeding him because he won't bang in the slot for the puck.
And we got a second-rounder for him? Halleluah!
I'll eat my words gladly should he emerge a star in Philadelphia. That's how much I doubt it.
PS> WTF? Bobby Clarke HATES guys like this who don't like the rough stuff. Even if they're big.... so strange he would want Eric...
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Jan 30, 2003 7:19:28 GMT -5
Based on interviews at camp this past summer, Chouinard saw training camp and the season as his last chance to win over Habs management. He got hurt in camp and subsequently gave a very ordinary account of himself. Got shipped to Utah, where he was reinjured (he missed a good part of last season with injuries as well). A 12-12-24 scoring record in 32 AHL games this season isn't exactly eye-catching. And yes, his contract expires at the end of the current season.
So, Savard unloads an underachieving, injury-prone player who he feels no longer warrants a spot as one of 50 allowable players. Perhaps he's on the verge of signing Milroy, Perezhogin and/or Higgins, or another prospect. Or maybe more bodies are showing up via trade.
In any event, André made like a bandit on this one. A second rounder in a very deep draft? Larceny!
Fwiw, here are the 45th to 55th ranked North American and European players as per the Central Scouting Bureau (http://centralscouting.nhl.com/):
North America
EGENER, MIKE WHL CALGARY 6' 3.5" 195 D L
HYNES, SHANE ECAC CORNELL UNIVERSITY 6' 3" 210 RW R
DOHERTY, JOHN USHSE PHILLIPS-ANDOVER 6' 3.5" 215 D R
RICHMOND, DANNY CCHA UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN 6' 0" 175 D L
VOROSHNIN, PAVEL OHL MISSISSAUGA 6' 2.5" 175 D L
DESBIENS, GUILLAUME QMJHL ROUYN NORANDA 6' 2" 190 RW L
PERRY, COREY OHL LONDON 6' 2" 184 RW R
HENNESSY, JOSHUA QMJHL QUEBEC 6' 0" 180 C L
REDENBACH, TYLER WHL SWIFT CURRENT 5' 11" 184 C,LW L
POTULNY, RYAN USHL LINCOLN 5' 11.5" 190 C L
URQUHART, CORY QMJHL MONTREAL 6' 2" 195 C L
Europe
FURRER, PHILIPPE SUI BERN 6' 0" 174 D L
BLAHO, STEFAN SVK JR. TRENCIN JR. 6' 1" 198 F L
BOLF, LUKAS CZE JR. SPARTA JR. 6' 1" 191 D L
FABRY, BRANISLAV SVK JR. BRATISLAVA JR. 6' 0" 185 F,W L
VAINIO, NIKO FIN JR. JOKERIT JR. 6' 1" 180 D L
KHAJRETDINOV, RAFIK RUS JR. KRYLJA JR. 6' 0" 167 D L
RUZICKA, STEFAN SVK NITRA 5' 11" 189 F,W R
JOUKOV, MIHAIL SWE ARBOGA 6' 3" 183 C,W L
SEYDOUX, PHILIPPE SUI KLOTEN 6' 1" 183 D L
SHEVCHUK, ALEXEI RUS JR. DYNAMO JR. 6' 0" 172 D L
LUCKA, MARTIN CZE JR. ZLIN JR. 6' 3" 187 D L
Unfortunately there is no combined ranking, which would be realistically more useful.
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Post by Yeti on Jan 30, 2003 7:45:48 GMT -5
Like I said earlier, I really like this trade. But we should be ready to read a lot of second-guessing until the draft. Yes, Chouinard is making his Flyers debut tonight against the Flyers (La Presse). I didn't know they had so little depth at LW. There is no way in Mtl I would take Chouinard over Hossa, Bulis per ex. or even Kilger (pretty similar- underachieving first round pick, except that Chad is actually useful on the third or fourth lines because he hits).
I feel that if Eric scores a few in Feb we will never hear the end of it... until we get a name in June and a prospect report.
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Post by Yeti on Jan 30, 2003 7:47:25 GMT -5
Let me get it right, Eric is making his Flyers debut against the Devils tonight. There.
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Post by Cranky on Jan 30, 2003 8:00:50 GMT -5
Let me get it right, Eric is making his Flyers debut against the Devils tonight. There. He debuts in Philly tonight and scores 3 goals........scores 25 before the season ends. This board will erupt like a volcano and Savard will NEVER hear the end of this one. One of the things that I learned this year is that you never know how any set of skill translate in the NHL. I am not talking about extreme talent, I am talking about players like Hossa. I did not think he was top line material and yet he scores like a ace. What did Clarke see in Chewy? It could not be his hitting or skating. Was Chewy hiding his talents for 4 years? It certainly has to be Gagne who set this thing off. BTW, Clarke is NOT a shrewd judge of talent. He has had deep pockets to play with all along. On the other hand if the Av's got him, I'd worry. Dyment...look out.... |
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Post by Yeti on Jan 30, 2003 8:15:19 GMT -5
If Eric scores tonight Flyers fans will start making comparisons with Leclair. Poor Chouinard. Savard mentioned that Clarke offered him players but that he preferred the second round pick. That's how you build a cup contender. 3 picks among the best 60 prospects in a deep draft, and we have been doing it for 3 years now, our time is coming...
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 30, 2003 8:27:58 GMT -5
If Eric scores tonight Flyers fans will start making comparisons with Leclair. Poor Chouinard. Savard mentioned that Clarke offered him players but that he preferred the second round pick. That's how you build a cup contender. 3 picks among the best 60 prospects in a deep draft, and we have been doing it for 3 years now, our time is coming... Well, we could also say that we're changing a high first round pick that we did not wanna groom properly for low second round pick because we want to play the Petrov and Chow of this world instead of the Chouinards... and that is not necessarely great building technics. Flyers will give Chewy a chance right away so we'll know pretty soon just how good/not good this trade is and if Savard was right in his idea of not giving Chouinard the time of the day. |
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Post by Cranky on Jan 30, 2003 8:29:16 GMT -5
I was in a game when Leclair and Lindros were playing in Montreal. I could not believe how he manhandled little Eric. Short while later they traded both him and Desjardins. I bet you if we had a forum then, it would erupt and burn down the server. Mind you, Savared is NOT the type to make radical trades like that. No doubt, Chewy can score a few but he ain't no Leclair and he isn't Conroy. Unless he hid his talents extremelly well. Then again, if he does become a great 4th liner, BC will come out of the woodwork and beat on me like a rented mule. I called Chewy a bust, yes I did. *puts helmet on* |
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Post by Yeti on Jan 30, 2003 8:37:01 GMT -5
But Doc, Chouinard is a C converted into a LW. I don't think he will be turned into a RW anytime soon. Can you tell me in all honesty that Chouinard would have, in a near future, outplay Hossa (younger with better AHL stats and more of a physical presence) or Bulis (one year older than Chouinard and a lot of NHL experience already) on LW? People have been critical of AS for not meeting his team needs, well, I saw no future for Chouinard in Mtl, other young players showed more skills and work ethic than him and AS wants to bring new faces in the AHL next year. We will have to wait a few years before making a real evaluation of this deal.
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Post by Cranky on Jan 30, 2003 8:38:18 GMT -5
Well, we could also say that we're changing a high first round pick that we did not wanna groom properly for low second round pick because we want to play the Petrov and Chow of this world instead of the Chouinards... and that is not necessarely great building technics. Flyers will give Chewy a chance right away so we'll know pretty soon just how good/not good this trade is and if Savard was right in his idea of not giving Chouinard the time of the day. Doc, Chewy does not fit the Savardian "mould". He is not a high speed skater with good hands and able to play a lightning quick transition. It's one thing to get the Duck Walker (Gilmour) and McKay to fill the gaps it's a totally different thing to draft and develop players to fit a concept. Sundstrom IS the type of player that suits that mold. |
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Post by Lord Stanley on Jan 30, 2003 8:38:55 GMT -5
Well well well...
I say it's good too..I was sooo suprised yesterday when I heard it on RDS at like 10PM...I was pretty sure we'd get a draft pick in return but a second rounder..Yeah baby...
At best, like Montrealer said before, I think Chouinard can score 20-25 goals. That's exactly what chow, Audette, Bulis, petrov can do...
So then one may use the argument that he is 6'3 over 200lbs..but I say he plays as soft as Hayley wickenheiser..so to me he is another Audette or chow really..cause bulis and Petrov can skate and/or aren't floaters..
So then if you ask me if I am pleased with sending an audette or a chow for second rounder..I say Hell Yeah!!!!
I still hope the kid does good..not too good tho..LOL
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Post by Montrealer on Jan 30, 2003 8:53:23 GMT -5
He debuts in Philly tonight and scores 3 goals........scores 25 before the season ends. This board will erupt like a volcano and Savard will NEVER hear the end of this one. If he scores 25 before the season ends I'll go to Place Ville Marie at lunch in the middle of May and run through it naked. |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Jan 30, 2003 8:58:12 GMT -5
If he scores 25 before the season ends I'll go to Place Ville Marie at lunch in the middle of May and run through it naked. Make sure to have "Chouinard" painted across your chest. ;D |
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Post by Cranky on Jan 30, 2003 9:02:03 GMT -5
If he scores 25 before the season ends I'll go to Place Ville Marie at lunch in the middle of May and run through it naked. PTH does that all the time and still can't get lucky........ It would take some serious talent to do that and I just don't see it. Maybe ten at best. MAYBE. |
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Post by BadCompany on Jan 30, 2003 9:04:36 GMT -5
I was in a game when Leclair and Lindros were playing in Montreal. I could not believe how he manhandled little Eric. Short while later they traded both him and Desjardins. I bet you if we had a forum then, it would erupt and burn down the server. Mind you, Savared is NOT the type to make radical trades like that. No doubt, Chewy can score a few but he ain't no Leclair and he isn't Conroy. Unless he hid his talents extremelly well. Then again, if he does become a great 4th liner, BC will come out of the woodwork and beat on me like a rented mule. I called Chewy a bust, yes I did. *puts helmet on* I'm not sure what it is about Eric Lindros, but he seems to get manhandled by the strangest people. For some strange reason, I remember Pierre Sevigny, of all people, giving Lindros a hard time, and who can forget the battles Lindros fought - and largely lost - with Igor Ulanov? Big boys, for certain, but hardly intimidating, physical forces. Lindros seems to do much better when running over guys like Andreas Dackell. When people stand up to him, he doesn't seem to do as well. Has Lindros ever gone toe-to-toe (and I don't mean in a fight, but just game-day battles) with a bigger man and come out ahead? Anyways, the other Eric, Chouinard there, has tonnes of talent, and sweet, sweet hands. You can't teach hands like that. You can beat some toughness into him, but you can't teach goal scoring. Chouinard has that. Sure, his numbers in Utah this year aren't great, but if you actually break down his AHL career, he actually does very well when he isn't hurt, or when he has recovered from injuries. For the last little while he has been averaging (I believe) a point-per-game in the AHL, after recovering from his groin injury. Its a very, very safe gamble for Bobby Clarke. He has something like 14 draft picks this summer, so he can throw one away on a project like Chouinard. People always say it takes big men longer to develope, and at 22, its not like Chouinard is over-the-hill. Even Andre Savard, the great evaluator of talent, said Chouinard will have a long career in the NHL. Getting a 2nd rounder for a guy who had no future here is a fantastic return, but like PTH said, was enough done to ensure that he has no future here? I don't know. This one has potential to hurt us. |
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