Quebec Separation rekindled. Thanks to Liberals.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Mr. said:

My argument is that we are willingly bringing it to hell in a hand basket. Some want to take what the rest of the world ENVIES and trying to throw it over the abyss.

I understand your perspective, however I do not share it. I do not find the eventuality, and this is not at all meant in a provocative way, nearly as alarming or upsetting. Separation will not happen at gun-point, but through a democratic process.

I also do not see the rest of the country falling to pieces in a collective nervous breakdown when Québec separates. In fact, I think the jolt will more likely result in a stronger, reformulated federation.

Tough times ahead? Probably. The end of the world? Not.

BTW, I am not advocating that Québec will or should get something for nothing. There will be a host of finiancial, property, and territorial settlements to be made. Just because one moves away from home doesn't mean that one gets to keep Dad's credit card.

[Toronthab]

Mr. said:

My argument is that we are willingly bringing it to hell in a hand basket. Some want to take what the rest of the world ENVIES and trying to throw it over the abyss.

Too true. Lots of good points on this thread. What the hell is wrong with romance? I love "tied to a chair" imagery, and there is indeed a time to talk and a time to act.

Couples who stop talking start acting in ways inimicable to their long-term prospects.

Even the planets and stars are drawn to one another. Pragmatism isn't paractical.

"Everything that rises must converge." Teilhard de Chardin, as quoted by Peirre Elliot Trudeaeu a quintessential Canadian who embraced the two solitudes within his own person. And they were in solitude no more.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

And Quebecers are so lovable.

[Doc Holliday]

Mr. said:

It is a response to the separatist view that Quebec is now completely self sufficient economically and it's just a walk in the economic park to hope over to separation.

No country are self sufficient, they all rely on parterships and world economics. Quebec wouldn’t be any different and I don't see why you measure us to standards that no country achieves.

What anti-separatist totally fail to understand is that Quebec separatist don’t come and go as the wind blows. There is always a core base of roughly 40% of the population that believes that a sovereign Quebec is the only possible way of finishing the back stabbing job that Trudeau started. As well, despite what you say, Canada is not ready to hear and work towards reworking the Federation with Quebec. 30+ years of trying this with multiple failures, proves it. Federalists often sees all these failures to define the country as a true success. Quebec sees Canada as a metling pot of provinces with various needs and requirements where a central government would have very limited power and responsabilities while that last decade of Liberal government believed in a strong central government over a unified territory where mostly the same answers and programs fits all. Give or take a few meaningless bonbons here and there.

[/quote]

[Cranky]

*No country are self sufficient, they all rely on partnerships and world economics. Quebec wouldn’t be any different and I don't see why you measure us to standards that no country achieves.*

Where exactly was there a measure of standards? I am bringing up the economic realities of separation. I see no argument to support that a separate Quebec will be better off. In fact, not once has any separatist made the argument that Quebec will be better off, rather, the argument is always glossed over by “everything will be as before when we have CONTROL”. How is that?

Even the question of separation has a veneer of “ don’t worry, be happy, we have the answers”. But more about that later.



* What anti-separatist totally fail to understand is that Quebec separatist don’t come and go as the wind blows. There is always a core base of roughly 40% of the population that believes that a sovereign Quebec is the only possible way of finishing the back stabbing job that Trudeau started. *

Back stabbing? So separation should be based on revenge for slow cooperation or perceived humiliations of the past? Have hardcore seperatist not moved forward from that?

As for the 40%...let's look at THAT!

“ Do you want the government of Quebec to start negotiations for Sovereignty-Association.” A presumptuous question to say the least. Separatist should drop the glossing and ask the jugular question. “ Do you want to separate from Canada?”<br>
Then we will see EXACTLY how much of that 40% is real. Clarity, it will cost.


*As well, despite what you say, Canada is not ready to hear and work towards reworking the Federation with Quebec. 30+ years of trying this with multiple failures, proves it.*

Is that including the “failure” of Quebec running it’s own school system, enacting laws to control it’s own culture, running it’s own pension and medical institutions, in fact, thriving within the evil Canadian empire? From my drive to my customers throughout Quebec, I hardly see third world oppression. In fact, I see a society that has thrived within Canada and has achieved many of it’s goals. Can more be achieved? Yes.


*Quebec sees Canada as a metling pot of provinces with various needs and requirements where a central government would have very limited power and responsibilities*

There is a certain responsibility that a central government has. It must act in for the greater good and still accommodate as much as it can. Quebec has never gotten every change it wants or desires at the snap of a finger. Like all relations, it must have a give and take. On the other hand, I do not see a single shred of the “give and take” mentality from the separatist elite. In fact, I only see glossing over of economic realities and self-fulfilling arbitrary expectations and demands. Demands like "sovereinty with association". How presumtious!

In fact……

The hardcore separatist are running out of cultural reasons for separation so they have resorted to fanning the residual anger of the past, “our country” emotion and UNproven and dubious economic promises. They sound EXACTLY like the promises the Slovaks got from THEIR politicians and separatist elite. Now ask THEM how poverty and economic gloom feels.

So back to my question of economics.....

Separatist elite are promising that if they had their own country, they would be better able to respond to the economy and give the Quebec society a better life. Yet, I have NOT seen any FACTS to support the separatist case of economic betterment through seperation. Why? I am no economist but I know a thing or seven about manufacturing and I would dearly love for anyone to answer that.

And the last thing.....

Don't accuse federalist with fear mongering because they point to reality. Unless of course hard core seperatist have something to hide........

[Cranky]

M. said:

. Just because one moves away from home doesn't mean that one gets to keep Dad's credit card.

That is EXACTLY the attitude separatist accuse Canadians of having. As far as I am concerned, I am perfectly willing to contribute MORE then my fair share to keep OUR Canada together.

Compromise, conciliation, cooperation. That’s MY Canada.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Mr. said:

That is EXACTLY the attitude separatist accuse Canadians of having. As far as I am concerned, I am perfectly willing to contribute MORE then my fair share to keep OUR Canada together

Compromise, conciliation, cooperation. That’s MY Canada.

Hmmm, OK. But on what is this perspective based? Sentimentality, economic self-interest, the lost chance to tell Québec what to do if elected, a sense of possessiveness...? Why is it so important to you to have Québec stay within Canada? Inquiring minds want to know.

In some shape or form Québec will still be there.

As an ex-patriate Québécois I don't think re-integration would be a difficult thing, should that route be chosen. Sure, fluency in the language might be an issue at first, but that is a normal requirement in most countries, and it would make sense that there would be schooling made available by the government to aid that process.

I know a common fear among non-francophones, especially residents or former residents of Québec, is that an independent Québec would descend into a pur laine tyranny. Granted the examples of racism provided by Parizeau and Landry, for example, in the not too distant past serve as warning flags. However, I believe that francophone Québécois society as a whole is not necessarily reflected by those aberrant incidents.

Still there is work to be done. There always is.

To go further with my "wife tied to a chair" metaphor: forcing her to listen to you when she clearly doesn't want to will only make her bitter and resentful, above and beyond the incarceration itself. If you love her, let her go.

Hmmm....my parents arrived in Québec in the early 50s from a Displaced Persons processing camp in England, with little English and no French, and most family casualties of the war, with two suitcases and $25. There was no welfare back then. They did alright.

Québec will survive. The spirit and resourcefulness of the people will see to that. Not saying it will be easy. But you do what you gotta do. Right?

[Toronthab]

Mr. said:

That is EXACTLY the attitude separatist accuse Canadians of having. As far as I am concerned, I am perfectly willing to contribute MORE then my fair share to keep OUR Canada together.

Compromise, conciliation, cooperation. That’s MY Canada.

This is EXCELLENT Cranking!

I too am perfectly willing to contribute MORE than my fair share to hold my wonderful country together. There are ALWAYS "good reasons" to break up a relationship. The best reason to break up is to reinforce the truism that people do the most incredibly stupid things for utterly trivial reasons. Like ennui, indifference, bigotry.

There is much that is despicable and horrible about all North American societies, but very little that can be fixed by solipistic isolation. That said, I see Quebec as being in many respects a more mature culture than much of Canada, and I further see the loss of Quebec as leaving an irreparable hole in Canada that would finish the country in a relatively short piece of time. Albertans already speak "Ammurrican".

Quebec would I think (or feel) be negatively affected, but not so disasterously as the ROC.

We should all leap to the ground where stands the man whose crank is true. This element of crankitude is, as it always was, and always will be, our only possible hope and course of action.

[PTH]

Mr. said:

Where exactly was there a measure of standards? I am bringing up the economic realities of separation. I see no argument to support that a separate Quebec will be better off. In fact, not once has any separatist made the argument that Quebec will be better off, rather, the argument is always glossed over by “everything will be as before when we have CONTROL”. How is that?

Even the question of separation has a veneer of “ don’t worry, be happy, we have the answers”. But more about that later.

Maybe not listening to the economic side of things is a consequence of having heard too much fear-mongering ? I remember study after study showing that Quebec's economy would be worth about that of Botswana.... Which basically defies any kind of common sense, so since then any and all talk of the economics of separation means little to me, either way.

Back stabbing? So separation should be based on revenge for slow cooperation or perceived humiliations of the past? Have hardcore seperatist not moved forward from that?

Well, all attempts at negotiating past that have been blocked. Remember that Mulroney won basically because he promised a national reconciliation. Distinct society, asymetrical federalism, etc - every time Quebec tries to put together a package the rest of the country comes in and changes this into another debate about getting what it wants out of Ottawa - which totally shoots down any chance of Quebec getting the partnership it wants and needs out of this country.

So, how can we move past Trudeau's terrible legacy when the rest of the country hands onto it ?

As for the 40%...let's look at THAT!

Actually, that's a pretty solid number, 40% will say yes to just about anything that leaves Quebec independant. the other 10% that voted yes in 1995 are what I'd call the soft federalists - the ones who could go either way. And I'd venture that there's at least another 10% of soft federalists who voted no in 1995, and the rest is made up of firm federalists.

I'd guess that both the Doc and I are in the soft federalists - perfectly ready to listen, but we want more than just words.

“ Do you want the government of Quebec to start negotiations for Sovereignty-Association.” A presumptuous question to say the least. Separatist should drop the glossing and ask the jugular question. “ Do you want to separate from Canada?”<br>
Then we will see EXACTLY how much of that 40% is real. Clarity, it will cost.

Actually, some very clear questions give the same numbers. Asking if people would want to pay all their taxes to Quebec gives a 60%+ yes vote[/quote]

Is that including the “failure” of Quebec running it’s own school system, enacting laws to control it’s own culture, running it’s own pension and medical institutions, in fact, thriving within the evil Canadian empire? From my drive to my customers throughout Quebec, I hardly see third world oppression. In fact, I see a society that has thrived within Canada and has achieved many of it’s goals. Can more be achieved? Yes.

Hey, no one is saying that we're an enslaved people, just that not being recognized as real partners in Canada and that it's costing us, as a nation.

There is a certain responsibility that a central government has. It must act in for the greater good and still accommodate as much as it can.

Part of that greater good has to be keeping both partners satisfied with the conditions of their staying together, right ? Yes nothing has been ACHIEVED to that end. Plenty of chit-chat, now and then temporary deals, but nothing long-lasting, nothing a nation can build on and feel secure in.

On the other hand, I do not see a single shred of the “give and take” mentality from the separatist elite. In fact, I only see glossing over of economic realities and self-fulfilling arbitrary expectations and demands. Demands like "sovereinty with association". How presumtious!

The whole association thing is 1980, not 1995 and even less 200X.

The hardcore separatist are running out of cultural reasons for separation so they have resorted to fanning the residual anger of the past, “our country” emotion and UNproven and dubious economic promises.

Actually, current sovereignists are more atuned to the economic aspects - Quebec's gotten a hold on its finances over the last decade or so. As to the "past", the problem is, what is the past to you is the present to us. It's the basic problem with the country right now. The ROC is fine with the Trudeau constitution, whereas much of Quebec can't stand it. Somethings gotta give, somewhere.

They sound EXACTLY like the promises the Slovaks got from THEIR politicians and separatist elite. Now ask THEM how poverty and economic gloom feels.

But we aren't a former communist backwater....

Separatist elite are promising that if they had their own country, they would be better able to respond to the economy and give the Quebec society a better life. Yet, I have NOT seen any FACTS to support the separatist case of economic betterment through seperation.

It's not a question of having a better or richer country overall, it's a question of having the right country for us. For example, Chrétien's millenium fund was a good idea for the ROC, yet in Quebec (with lower tuition) it had to be bent all out of shape and really wasn't appropriate for our nation. In an independant Quebec, we could have spend our share of that (which we paid with our federal taxes, after all, and after separating would go to Quebec) in the most appropriate way for us.

That's just one example, but such cases are present across the board. Canada is often just not suited to Quebec. In a simple majority-type federal government, with 10 provinces treated as not only equal (which they are) but identical (which they aren't) Quebec's population will never be in the right country for their own good.

Don't accuse federalist with fear mongering because they point to reality. Unless of course hard core seperatist have something to hide........

Ah, the conspiracy theory comes out. Not even a theory really, just a mild form of fear-mongering on the other side of the fence. Really, I expected something better than that.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Toronthab said:

This is EXCELLENT Cranking!

I too am perfectly willing to contribute MORE than my fair share to hold my wonderful country together. There are ALWAYS "good reasons" to break up a relationship. The best reason to break up is to reinforce the truism that people do the most incredibly stupid things for utterly trivial reasons. Like ennui, indifference, bigotry.

There is much that is despicable and horrible about all North American societies, but very little that can be fixed by solipistic isolation. That said, I see Quebec as being in many respects a more mature culture than much of Canada, and I further see the loss of Quebec as leaving an irreparable hole in Canada that would finish the country in a relatively short piece of time. Albertans already speak "Ammurrican".

Quebec would I think (or feel) be negatively affected, but not so disasterously as the ROC.

We should all leap to the ground where stands the man whose crank is true. This element of crankitude is, as it always was, and always will be, our only possible hope and course of action.

Designating Québec as Disneyland North is a definite no-go.

[PTH]

Mr. said:

That is EXACTLY the attitude separatist accuse Canadians of having. As far as I am concerned, I am perfectly willing to contribute MORE then my fair share to keep OUR Canada together.

We don't want your wallet. We want to feel at home.

Compromise, conciliation, cooperation. That’s MY Canada.

So, are you willing to vote for a Meech-Lake style accord ? For language rights laws within Quebec? For an opt-out clause for certain federal programs? All this hard-coded into the constitution, on which Quebec would have an exclusive veto for the amendment formula? (the ROC doesn't need an added, explicit veto - they have it through being the majority in a democracy)

If so, then we can talk.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

PTH said:

Well, all attempts at negotiating past that have been blocked. Remember that Mulroney won basically because he promised a national reconciliation. Distinct society, asymetrical federalism, etc - every time Quebec tries to put together a package the rest of the country comes in and changes this into another debate about getting what it wants out of Ottawa - which totally shoots down any chance of Quebec getting the partnership it wants and needs out of this country.

Well, then Québec must leave. There can be no insistence on the tail wagging the dog in a true democracy. Québec is no more important to Canada than Newfoundland, or Alberta, or British Columbia. If Québec insists that it is and should be, how can there be, and why should there be, any room at the table for them.

Both Québec and the ROC should hold referenda on the issue of the former's desirability as a member of the confederation.

[Toronthab]

M. said:

Designating Québec as Disneyland North is a definite no-go.

One thing I really admired about the French was how they so magnificently ignored Disneyland in France. I do have a slight tendency (or pronounced, perhaps) to romanticize the French. I grew up, or at least got older during the FLQ days in Quebec, and and English speaking with English speaking parents. Me mother she was orange and me fadder he was green (Well, blue actually).

Disneyland North? I don't think too much so but some for sure.

Quebec has given Canada its humanity. Quebecers are considerably more accepting of others than are most other Candadians ,etc.etc...the stuff I posted earlier from MacLean's magazine's polls and analysis.

True, it feeds right into my biases. I love the French (in the sense of admire), though I speak the language poorly. The so-called "enlightenment" thinkers, and French thinkers, good or bad are behind an awful lot of the west's seminal ideas. (especially Descartes and his booboo). My other cultural heritage is English. It is totally true however that I am quite a bit more enamored of the French cultural element than I am the English. If you had to drop me into either Quebec or Alberta......

Who else have we got. Hume did not believe that tracing and ink-covered nib across a page "caused" the letters on the page.

I digress as always, but to see great value in so rich a present and past culture need not be overly Disnesque. Especially not Disnesque!

The task is to be a good enough at liberty, egality and fraternity to be a worthy brother of Quebec.

I defer to a previous excellent crank.

[Toronthab]

M. said:

Well, then Québec must leave. There can be no insistence on the tail wagging the dog in a true democracy. Québec is no more important to Canada than Newfoundland, or Alberta, or British Columbia. If Québec insists that it is and should be, how can there be, and why should there be, any room at the table for them.

Both Québec and the ROC should hold referenda on the issue of the former's desirability as a member of the confederation.

Quebec is of course more important to Canada than is Newfoundland, although we would have to push Nova Scotia to build up mainlander joke supplies. In a sense of theoretical equality you are right I think, but all are unique and bring unique ammonts of different gifts.

Some idiots, miscreants, would tie their wives to a chair, and worse. Our focus can only be to be as good a partner as we can be, respecting the good wife's needs, moods, and aspirations. Agreements that take a while out are just agreements that take a while to work out. There is no historical necessity at work here. It comes down to what you and I do in thought, word and deed.

Trudeau never bought the idea of a super-province and neither do I. Unlike the US, we are a VERY LOOSE federation, but the legitimate cultural needs of any province must of course be accomodated within our framework.

Everything that rises must converge...Teilhard de Chardin

[Cranky]

Fortified with dinner and Sudafed's...I am BACK to fight for the CAUSE! *snivel* *cough*

[Cranky]

M. said:

Hmmm, OK. But on what is this perspective based? Sentimentality, economic self-interest, the lost chance to tell Québec what to do if elected, a sense of possessiveness...? Why is it so important to you to have Québec stay within Canada? Inquiring minds want to know.

In some shape or form Québec will still be there.

As an ex-patriate Québécois I don't think re-integration would be a difficult thing, should that route be chosen. Sure, fluency in the language might be an issue at first, but that is a normal requirement in most countries, and it would make sense that there would be schooling made available by the government to aid that process.

I know a common fear among non-francophones, especially residents or former residents of Québec, is that an independent Québec would descend into a pur laine tyranny. Granted the examples of racism provided by Parizeau and Landry, for example, in the not too distant past serve as warning flags. However, I believe that francophone Québécois society as a whole is not necessarily reflected by those aberrant incidents.

Still there is work to be done. There always is.

To go further with my "wife tied to a chair" metaphor: forcing her to listen to you when she clearly doesn't want to will only make her bitter and resentful, above and beyond the incarceration itself. If you love her, let her go.

Hmmm....my parents arrived in Québec in the early 50s from a Displaced Persons processing camp in England, with little English and no French, and most family casualties of the war, with two suitcases and $25. There was no welfare back then. They did alright.

Québec will survive. The spirit and resourcefulness of the people will see to that. Not saying it will be easy. But you do what you gotta do. Right?

Because it is. Because I believe in our country. Because we have something unique, something special, something that I am proud off. Because I can hold my back straight, my head up and look someone in the eye and say I AM CANADIAN.

[HabbaDasher]

Teach the rest of Canada French.
Separation solved.

[Cranky]

*Maybe not listening to the economic side of things is a consequence of having heard too much fear-mongering ? I remember study after study showing that Quebec's economy would be worth about that of Botswana.... Which basically defies any kind of common sense, so since then any and all talk of the economics of separation means little to me, either way. *

Then you are only relying ONLY on emotion and to hell to simple pragmatism and common sense.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*Well, all attempts at negotiating past that have been blocked. Remember that Mulroney won basically because he promised a national reconciliation. Distinct society, asymmetrical federalism, etc - every time Quebec tries to put together a package the rest of the country comes in and changes this into another debate about getting what it wants out of Ottawa - which totally shoots down any chance of Quebec getting the partnership it wants and needs out of this country.

So, how can we move past Trudeau's terrible legacy when the rest of the country hands onto it ?*

Quebec HAS achieved much within the framework of Canada. Not getting EVERYTHING does not mean failure. It only means that at the time it was not possible or perhaps it was too difficult to achieve.

I still can not understand how everything that has been achieved by Quebec within Canada has just pushed to the wayside as if it was nothing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

*Actually, that's a pretty solid number, 40% will say yes to just about anything that leaves Quebec independent. the other 10% that voted yes in 1995 are what I'd call the soft federalists - the ones who could go either way. And I'd venture that there's at least another 10% of soft federalists who voted no in 1995, and the rest is made up of firm federalists.

I'd guess that both the Doc and I are in the soft federalists - perfectly ready to listen, but we want more than just words. *

You are a soft Federalist? Dammit, I’m practically turning blue (and that’s not because I have a cold) with conciliation, compromise and cooperation and yet, I have yet to see anything but “you done us bad”.

How about a question? What else can be achieved through understanding and cooperation WITHIN Canada? How about some give and take rather then "separation is solution to everything"? Which it isn't.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

*Actually, some very clear questions give the same numbers. Asking if people would want to pay all their taxes to Quebec gives a 60%+ yes vote*

Was that a question of "when we completely separate from Canada and on our own" or was it based from the glossing and soothing over with a preface of "sovereignty /association"?

Every question from my days in back in the 70's was always softened up with the assumption that ROC was going to play along. The separatist question in my mind was no better then "c'mon bro, vote for separation and everything will be rosy, you'll see!". It still has not changed.

I remember the fiery Levesque speeches from the seventies and they were and are about emotion, not substance. If any substance was mentioned, it was always about how Quebecers were done wrong. Canada to hard core separatist is a house of atrocities that they have to escape from!

~~~~~~~~~~~

*Part of that greater good has to be keeping both partners satisfied with the conditions of their staying together, right ? Yes nothing has been ACHIEVED to that end. Plenty of chit-chat, now and then temporary deals, but nothing long-lasting, nothing a nation can build on and feel secure in.*

There you go again. You live in a society that has freedom and responsibility. You study in French, buy good an services in French. You enjoy economic prosperity within Canada. You can drive through the entire Beauce region and not a word of English is heard, yet they are doing well. There is NO ONE telling you to learn English or go hungry. There is NO ONE keeping you from your culture, your education of choice, your freedom to work in Quebec OR Canada, yet these are NOTHING long lasting?

I need another Sudafed.......

~~~~~~~~~~~~

*Actually, current sovereignties are more attuned to the economic aspects - Quebec's gotten a hold on its finances over the last decade or so. As to the "past", the problem is, what is the past to you is the present to us. It's the basic problem with the country right now. The ROC is fine with the Trudeau constitution, whereas much of Quebec can't stand it. Somethings gotta give, somewhere.*

They fine tune the economic policies within the boundaries of Canada. How would they fare if they needed to make policies to hold up a Quebec dollar? How would they deal with direct competition for investment with the rest of Canada. There would be no Federal support and in fact, that Federal support would go directly to the competitors of Quebec industry.

Take for example the wood industry. There has been hundreds of millions of investment poured into it to make a value added wood product so that it is more immune to American softwood tariffs and yet there is little to show for it. The furniture industry has been propped up and yet it is going down. The secondary processing of wood has ONLY gotten a reprieve because of the high transportation costs from Brazil and Argentina. Yet that is only temporary.

All the Federal money that was invested in Quebec will now go to Ontario and BC wood industry. I LOVE to have a few million poured into my company like the Quebec/Federal government pours into the Quebec wood industries. Yet, us poor Ontario small and medium wood related businesses have to make it on our own broken skates. Yes, I am jealous......

Here is a simple scenario. Montreal must float municipal bands? What do you think they interest rate would be if Quebec was independent of Canada? Two points? Three points? You need to rasie TAXES to pay for that extra points. That is the REAL cost that no sovereignist will EVER discuss. Why? Hiding from the truth?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*But we aren't a former communist backwater....*

You brought up the example, I just wanted to torch you with it.

Slovakia IS an example of what can happen, likely to a lesser degree, but it is there and it is real.

Remember one thing. The world does NOT need Quebec factories. There is nothing that Quebec makes that can not be made cheaper somewhere else in the world. Same for the rest of Canada. THAT is why Europe has banded together.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*It's not a question of having a better or richer country overall, it's a question of having the right country for us. For example, Chrétien's millennium fund was a good idea for the ROC, yet in Quebec (with lower tuition) it had to be bent all out of shape and really wasn't appropriate for our nation. In an independent Quebec, we could have spend our share of that (which we paid with our federal taxes, after all, and after separating would go to Quebec) in the most appropriate way for us.

That's just one example, but such cases are present across the board. Canada is often just not suited to Quebec. In a simple majority-type federal government, with 10 provinces treated as not only equal (which they are) but identical (which they aren't) Quebec's population will never be in the right country for their own good.*

The education millennium fund was another vote getting idea of the dying, lying Liberals. It was not just Quebec, but every province of Canada complained about it.

The stupidity of it all was that the education fund was slashed then a direct "vote for us" fund was foisted as a solution to all the education funding problems. Stupid.

Do NOT blame Liberal political idiocy to the rest of Canada. PQ and the BLOC have their wonderfully stupid moments too.

*Ah, the conspiracy theory comes out. Not even a theory really, just a mild form of fear-mongering on the other side of the fence. Really, I expected something better than that. *

I expect hard core sovereignist to come out with something more concrete then "we can do better" but all I hear is ignoring of what is achieved, cries of past wrongs and glossing over of economic reality. I expect better then that.

[Cranky]

PTH said:

We don't want your wallet. We want to feel at home.

Hey, don't interrupt me while I am beating on a soft Federalist.

PTH said:

So, are you willing to vote for a Meech-Lake style accord ?

For language rights laws within Quebec?

For an opt-out clause for certain federal programs?

All this hard-coded into the constitution, on which Quebec would have an exclusive veto for the amendment formula? (the ROC doesn't need an added, explicit veto - they have it through being the majority in a democracy)

If so, then we can talk.

If you create a iron clad Provincial Constitution that protects minorities from "pure lane" sovereignties and respect minorities rights and aspirations then I would have no problem with language rights.

Yes on the opt out clause. But are you willing to meet the criteria of the programs? If money is earmarked for education, are you prepared to spend it on education and not some pet project? Quebec is NOT unique in social needs. All the provinces have the same problems but to slightly different degree. Remember, politicians are evil lier's that will spend money to ELECT themselves. See Fed Fib'erals for reference.

Ummm.....I am scratching my head. Define what you mean? If you mean keeping those UGLY Reformist in Conservative clothing from introducing a bill to spade ALL MALES so as to solve the abortion issue. Well, brother, we are marching to Ottawa and torching it. If Quebec wants to pick and chose every single program or veto matters of national importance then we need to talk about it.

NEVER forget that all of Quebec's problems are NOT unique. Just to a different degree. There are SOME unique problems and concerns so Quebec should have a say in and I am all for that.

[Cranky]

Toronthab said:

Quebec is of course more important to Canada than is Newfoundland, although we would have to push Nova Scotia to build up mainlander joke supplies. In a sense of theoretical equality you are right I think, but all are unique and bring unique ammonts of different gifts.

Some idiots, miscreants, would tie their wives to a chair, and worse. Our focus can only be to be as good a partner as we can be, respecting the good wife's needs, moods, and aspirations. Agreements that take a while out are just agreements that take a while to work out. There is no historical necessity at work here. It comes down to what you and I do in thought, word and deed.

Trudeau never bought the idea of a super-province and neither do I. Unlike the US, we are a VERY LOOSE federation, but the legitimate cultural needs of any province must of course be accommodated within our framework.

Everything that rises must converge...Teilhard de Chardin

I agree with most of it except the line about who is "more important". We are a country of immigrants and as such, we need to be a country of inclusion, accomodation and acceptance. No one has any superior rights, no one is born special. Some have special cultural and economic needs that we can all accomodate and live with.

Is that to hard to do?

[Cranky]

Where the hell is hockey? *snivel* *cough*

[PTH]

HabbaDasher said:

Teach the rest of Canada French.
Separation solved.

That's been tried with immersion, and failed miserably. It means guys like Jason Ward and Brian Savage can babble their way through an interview, but that's it.

[PTH]

Mr. said:

Then you are only relying ONLY on emotion and to hell to simple pragmatism and common sense.

Not really - I'm just using common sense instead of facts and figures. Quebec is a modern economy roughly the size of Sweden, and with a similar climate. Why should they be incredibly succesful and we be *that* badly off on our own ?

Quebec HAS achieved much within the framework of Canada. Not getting EVERYTHING does not mean failure. It only means that at the time it was not possible or perhaps it was too difficult to achieve.

I still can not understand how everything that has been achieved by Quebec within Canada has just pushed to the wayside as if it was nothing.

Because it is nothing. It's case-by-case deals, that can be overturned anytime. Right now the future of our nation is completely out of our hands. I find that unacceptable. We either need our own country or the basic tools to feel secure within Canada. Whenever we look into option #2 the debate gets turned around, so we're back to option #1.

You are a soft Federalist? Dammit, I’m practically turning blue (and that’s not because I have a cold) with conciliation, compromise and cooperation and yet, I have yet to see anything but “you done us bad”.

I never said we were badly treated, just that we feel like a girl in an all-boy dorm and we still have to use the mens room. It's a good dorm and really 95% of it is fine by us, but we want to really feel at home. Secure. For the long run.

How about a question? What else can be achieved through understanding and cooperation WITHIN Canada? How about some give and take rather then "separation is solution to everything"? Which it isn't.

I never said it was. Bourassa gave a simple list of requirements for a new constitution, and it was fairly negotiated in the Mulroney years - yet it was dumped along the way.

Was that a question of "when we completely separate from Canada and on our own" or was it based from the glossing and soothing over with a preface of "sovereignty /association"?

No, it was just about taxes. And if we pay all our taxes to Quebec, do you really think the ROC wants us to stay ?

Every question from my days in back in the 70's was always softened up with the assumption that ROC was going to play along. The separatist question in my mind was no better then "c'mon bro, vote for separation and everything will be rosy, you'll see!". It still has not changed.

No one denies that the road to statehood is complex. As to Canada cooperating - like any divorce, if one side wants to make life hell for both of them, they can. We assume Canada has an ounce of common sense.

I remember the fiery Levesque speeches from the seventies and they were and are about emotion, not substance. If any substance was mentioned, it was always about how Quebecers were done wrong. Canada to hard core separatist is a house of atrocities that they have to escape from!

And Levesque got a 40% yes vote. The 95 referendum got essentially 50% - going on both emotion and logic.

There you go again. You live in a society that has freedom and responsibility. You study in French, buy good an services in French. You enjoy economic prosperity within Canada. You can drive through the entire Beauce region and not a word of English is heard, yet they are doing well. There is NO ONE telling you to learn English or go hungry. There is NO ONE keeping you from your culture, your education of choice, your freedom to work in Quebec OR Canada, yet these are NOTHING long lasting?

Exactly. There is nothing to make me think that my world and my culture isn't going to be swamped during my lifetime. And I'm serious. I live in Quebec City and there's a huge amount of pressure to learn English - knowing English is what keeps me employed right now. If no long-term safeguards are put in place, in 100-200 years Quebec will be like Louisiana, with a quaint French Quarter, and a few old geezers who can babble some strange dialect that no one else speaks.

They fine tune the economic policies within the boundaries of Canada. How would they fare if they needed to make policies to hold up a Quebec dollar? How would they deal with direct competition for investment with the rest of Canada. There would be no Federal support and in fact, that Federal support would go directly to the competitors of Quebec industry.
Take for example the wood industry. There has been hundreds of millions of investment poured into it to make a value added wood product so that it is more immune to American softwood tariffs and yet there is little to show for it. The furniture industry has been propped up and yet it is going down. The secondary processing of wood has ONLY gotten a reprieve because of the high transportation costs from Brazil and Argentina. Yet that is only temporary.
Remember one thing. The world does NOT need Quebec factories. There is nothing that Quebec makes that can not be made cheaper somewhere else in the world. Same for the rest of Canada. THAT is why Europe has banded together.

AFAIK, all of the above is true right now, so is really irrelevant.

All the Federal money that was invested in Quebec will now go to Ontario and BC wood industry. I LOVE to have a few million poured into my company like the Quebec/Federal government pours into the Quebec wood industries. Yet, us poor Ontario small and medium wood related businesses have to make it on our own broken skates. Yes, I am jealous......

Keep in mind, Quebec funds 25% of what's being spent from Ottawa, and gets back roughly 25% from Ottawa, as well. So federal programs would be replaced by Quebec-based programs. This is a simple concept, yet I find myself explaining it over and over. Why do so many Canadians forget that all the money that Ottawa spends comes from the various provinces ?

Do NOT blame Liberal political idiocy to the rest of Canada. PQ and the BLOC have their wonderfully stupid moments too.

Hey, I'm just giving examples of policies that are perfectly rational for a ROC-type country, but that no one thought about clearing with Quebec. The raw-milk based cheese industry law is another example.

I expect hard core sovereignist to come out with something more concrete then "we can do better" but all I hear is ignoring of what is achieved,

What exactly has been acheived, that won't be gone by 2010 ? Zilch.

cries of past wrongs

Your past is my present. If only we could go back in time and shoot that bastard Trudeau.

and glossing over of economic reality. I expect better then that.

You haven't come up with any authoritative pieces of info yourself, and nothing about how the money we pay to Ottawa and get back in subsidies could just as well be routed through Quebec and used for subsidies without having inappropriate policies, simply not designed for our nation.

[PTH]

Mr. said:

If you create a iron clad Provincial Constitution that protects minorities from "pure lane" sovereignties and respect minorities rights and aspirations then I would have no problem with language rights.

The current Quebec law has all that.

And Quebec isn't the all-exclusive pur-laine society that the Globe and Mail would have you think. If anything, it's more inclusive of various cultures and traditions than the ROC.

Yes on the opt out clause. But are you willing to meet the criteria of the programs?

No, that would be counter-productive.

If money is earmarked for education, are you prepared to spend it on education and not some pet project?

No, because if it's not needed for education it might be because we placed more emphasis on it in the past.

Quebec is NOT unique in social needs.

Actually it is. Just about all sociological data shows that Quebec is very different from the ROC, hence different needs.

All the provinces have the same problems but to slightly different degree. Remember, politicians are evil lier's that will spend money to ELECT themselves. See Fed Fib'erals for reference.

I don't really trust provincial officials, but I trust them more than federal ones - if a provincial politician wants to buy my vote with my own money, it at least will be for something relevant to us in our province.

If Quebec wants to pick and chose every single program or veto matters of national importance then we need to talk about it.

Picking programs: well, yes we want to pick programs. To a certain extent this is what is happening now, on a case by case basis - I want a formal program where we don't depend entirely on the goodwill of the feds.
But for the army, borders, criminal law, etc. (ie, key, critical issues). But for road-building, telecommunications, natural ressources to a certain extent, we'd like some control.
Veto: on constitutional issues only.

NEVER forget that all of Quebec's problems are NOT unique. Just to a different degree. There are SOME unique problems and concerns so Quebec should have a say in and I am all for that.

Disagree on the first part, agree on the second.

[Toronthab]

Mr. said:

I agree with most of it except the line about who is "more important". We are a country of immigrants and as such, we need to be a country of inclusion, accomodation and acceptance. No one has any superior rights, no one is born special. Some have special cultural and economic needs that we can all accomodate and live with.

Is that to hard to do?

"More important" was a phrase I inherited in the thread. It has a practical, measurable sort of meaning, a quantitative, not essential meaning. The kind of remark a politician would get murdered over! It is true, that in most things, what PEI does is less impactful i.e. important than Quebec doing the same thing.

[Toronthab]

PTH said:

Because it is nothing. It's case-by-case deals, that can be overturned anytime. Right now the future of our nation is completely out of our hands. I find that unacceptable. We either need our own country or the basic tools to feel secure within Canada. Whenever we look into option #2 the debate gets turned around, so we're back to option #1.

Montreal is leading in virtually all the major industries of the modern economy; ahead of Toronto. This cannot at all be overturned at any time. I don't offer economic reasons to remain Canadian or reduce to Quebecois. Canada is a flawed thing, but it is our flawed thing. Canada needs you badly to be as good a country as it can be. You need Canada to be truly, not superficially greater than you are. Part of our mutual greatness is this voluntary relationship.

Canada is something to the US, to the world. Quebec and for that matter, Ontrario or Alberta would closer to nothing if not also Canada. You make a good case however for the critical importance of language protection.

My ancestor, Nicholas Boher, came to New France with the French marines to save Montreal anihiliation by the Iroquois. Ville Marie was an outreaching work and this work is still needed from all of us.

Separation really leaves you with what you already have in la belle province. You just lose Canada and being a Canadian. It's not much about gain. It's mostly about major loss.

Don't it always seem to go, ya don't know what ya got till its gone...Joni Mitchell

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

PTH said:

And Quebec isn't the all-exclusive pur-laine society that the Globe and Mail would have you think.

One needn't resort to phony charges against the Globe and Mail to see that this is largely correct.

Mother Tongue Neither English or French (1996 census)

Toronto 37%
Ottawa 18%

Calagry 19%
Edmonton 20%

Vancouver 34%
Victoria 11%

Montréal 19%
Québec City 2%

One can find the figures for all municipalities in Canada:
www12.statcan.ca/english/profil/PlaceSearchForm1.cfm?LANG=E

Take Montréal out of the mix and Québec looks like one big francophonie. OTOH, remove the largest city out of the mix for Alberta, BC, and Ontario, and there remains a healthy percentage of people in other muncipalities who didn't claim either English or French as their mother tongue. That's diversity.

If anything, it's more inclusive of various cultures and traditions than the ROC.

You forgot to include your sources for this declaration.

..the United Nations has designated Toronto as the World's "most ethnically-diverse city" five times in a row...

The GTA, home to the World. Ités a World within a city or better would be known as a global village. People from 169 countries speaking 100 languages now call GTA home. Over 70,000 new immigrants come to the city every year. Certainly, it is our diversity that distinguishes us from other great cities in he World. Religion is very diverse as well, Christianity still dominating the city with about 55% of the population, with Islam being the second largest religion in the city followed by Judaism and Buddhism. The visible minority will be a majority by the year 2010, representing 54% of the population of Toronto. In fact, Toronto is home to 42% of Canadaés total non-European population.

- www.afghan-network.net/Toronto/

New Yorkers like to brag about their welcoming Statue of Liberty. But, as of this year, foreign-born residents are expected to make up more than 50 percent of Toronto's population, compared with a mere 28 percent in New York....

# Toronto has one-twelfth of Canada's population but one-quarter of the country's immigrants.
# Immigration accounts for more than 92 percent of the city's total population growth.
# One in five Torontonians arrived in Canada after 1981; one in ten arrived after 1991.
# Toronto's citizens come from 169 countries and speak more than 100 languages (the top three foreign languages are Chinese, Italian and Portuguese).
# Toronto's cultural and religious diversity is unmatched: Mass is now said in 35 languages; 200,000 Muslims observe Ramadan; 80,000 Sikhs march in the annual Khalsa Day celebrations; and the city is home to half of the country's Jews.
# There are more visible minorities in Toronto than there are residents in any of the Atlantic provinces, Saskatchewan or Manitoba.

- www.skillsforchange.org/statistics/canadian_geographic/the_world_in_one_city.htm

Montréal figuratively and literally pales by comparison.

*

Let's look at what the last fully tabulated census (1996) tells us about the ethnic composition of Canada's four largest provinces by population: Alberta (AB), British Columbia (BC), Ontario (ON), and Québec (QC).

We will exclude the major founding ethnicities from our overview. That means exclusion of people who consider themselves Canadian, English, French, Irish, Québécois, Scottish, or Welsh. Aborginal people will be included since their presence predates the existence of Canada. The numbers are taken from each province's "Top 25 Ethnicities" list, as per StatsCan.

Total Population

Alberta: 2,669,195
British Colombia: 3,689,755
Ontario: 10,642,790
Québec: 7,045,080

Populations of Declared Ethnicities in Common

Italian: 244,740 (QC), 117,895 (BC), 743,425 (ON), 58,140 (AB)
Aboriginal: 142,385 (QC), 184,445 (BC), 246,070 (ON), 155,650 (AB)
German: 102,930 (QC), 498,380 (BC), 984,765 (ON), 531,265 (AB)
Jewish: 92,390 (QC), 30,700 (BC), 191,445 (ON), less than 17,000 (AB)
Greek: 57,415 (QC), less than 30,000 (BC), 113,730 (ON), less than 17,000 (AB)
Chinese: 55,870 (QC), 312,330 (BC), 422,770 (ON), 98,135 (AB)
South Asian (includes Bangladeshi, Bengali, East Indian, Goan, Gujarati, Pakistani, Punjabi, Sinhalese, Sri Lankan, and Tamil): 50,645 (QC), 165,010 (BC), 427,470 (ON), 56,195 (AB)
Portuguese: 47,130 (QC), less than 30,000 (BC), 231,805 (ON), less than 17,000 (AB)
Polish: 46,345 (QC), 102,390 (BC), 370,455 (ON), 126,670 (AB)
Spanish: 44,320 (QC), 32,795 (BC), 96,280 (ON), 17,575 (AB)
Vietnamese: 27,820 (QC), less than 30,000 (BC), 62,055 (ON), 19,170 (AB)
Ukrainian: 24,150 (QC), 168,765 (BC), 276,950 (ON), 258,920 (AB)
Russian: 19,210 (QC), 76,265 (BC), 74,465 (ON), 51,195 (AB)
Dutch: 18,665 (QC), 176,235 (BC), 433,690 (ON), 136,835 (AB)

Populations of Other Declared Ethnicities

Québec: Haitian 75,705, Lebanese 47,745
British Columbia: Norwegian 108,700, Swedish 90,490, Filipino 49,185, Danish 47,845, Hungarian 40,535, Austrian 33,980, Japanese 33,245
Ontario: Jamaican 159,465, Filipino 122,000, Hungarian 118,450
Alberta: Norwegian 106,665, Swedish 71,910, Hungarian 37,375, Filipino 25,295, Austrian 24,925, Romanian 17,410

StatsCan sources for the above numbers:

Québec

British Columbia

Ontario

Alberta

In terms of ethnic diversity, based on the percentage share each group has of its province's total population, Alberta, British Columbia, and Ontario are all ahead of Québec.

[Montrealer]

PTH said:

Your past is my present. If only we could go back in time and shoot that bastard Trudeau.

What a horrible person, to finally stand up like a proud Quebecois should and tell the truth to the people instead of feeding everyone intellectual pablum like the Journal de Montreal loves t do.

This sort of attitude about Trudeau is typical of the hard-core seperatist movement - a successful Quebecois federalist? Whatever should we do?

I know! Exile him!

deleted by Doc: not only PTH understood what you meant

deleted by Doc: no name calling, let's keep this mud throwing thread civil...

Oh, and I didn't bother responding to your condescending comment about my supposed ignorance of the Manitoba Schools question; I am fully aware of that event, and I am fully aware that the Quebecois of the day abandoned the French outside Quebec in order to preserve provincial powers.

[Montrealer]

I'm fully willing to have a referendum with the following question:

Do you endorse Quebec separating from Canada, becoming an independant state?
YES
NO

This referendum would be for Quebec only, of course. I don't believe there is any international precedent for trying to eject a member province or state; I don't believe there's any chance of seeing that happen anyway.

[Doc Holliday]

Mr. said:

Quebec HAS achieved much within the framework of Canada. Not getting EVERYTHING does not mean failure. It only means that at the time it was not possible or perhaps it was too difficult to achieve.

I still can not understand how everything that has been achieved by Quebec within Canada has just pushed to the wayside as if it was nothing.

It's not nothing. It's just not what we require. We ask for a house, you offer a car and than beat on us not being all impressed and eternally greatful.

As PTH and I have tried to explain half a dozen time, what Trudeau did is still not solved, point final. You might feel that time and a few bonbons should be enough to silence a nation bu it ain't so.

As for the economic side of things, I'm leaning towards PTH approach. Common sense and logic tells us that there are fine example of perfectly well off country that are very similar to Quebec out there. Even the most fierced Federalists will concede that nor Quebec nor Canada would economically crumble in a separation scenario. Trudeau's approach to Quebec was one or raising economical scarecrows and half threats of potential and possible future retribution. Trudeau's propaganda was so effective that many people of my parent's generation were terrorized by Levesque and compared him to Hitler while being believers that a separation would turn Quebec into a chaotique, lawless, 3rd world country. That was Trudeauisme at his best, reheated in recent years by Jean Chretien. We can smell it from miles away and we don't buy it. With all due respect, your fear strategy, would only work in retirement homes nowadays.

I like your Europe globalization analogy. Europe does't have to share a central government to enhance their economic strenght.

[Toronthab]

It's going to be pretty hard to argue if M. Beaux Eaux keeps insisting on bringing facts into the discussion. Let's agree to fight faire, eh?

Is the "eh" in ROC culture indeed come from our Quebecois (I'm going to have to get the French computer keys installed ...any tips?). I think this the likeliest explanaton. A fine example of fruitful intercourse, if so. I started to say "eh" some years ago as "Like a joke, eh? ANd now, eh the joke is like on me, eh? Whaddya think about that, eh?

I certainly can't quibble with stats that area likely unimpeachable, but I think it is true that quite contrary to a not uncommon belief in ROC, Quebecers are in fact more accepting of others. MacLeans's poll, for whatever value it offers, dexcribes Quebecers as the most "(ugly word alert) "tolerant" people of Canada.

Stats may not speak to the critical issue of disposition. That the force behind the move to separation from Canada is ethnicly driven and monolithic is of course just obvious. That such an entity like the idiot anglais who say "Hey they lost the war, they should speak English" should exist in the midst of the zealots is just normal. I've met far, far to many English -speaking bigots, and I get hugely tempted to kick their sorry asses around the block. I don't believe 'exploding mailboxes" not withstanding that the movement towards separation is essentially bigotted, but rather a recognition of differences which are truly there. I believe that these differences are largely accomodated within Canada, and that the more like Quebec the rest of Canada can become, the better we will all be.

Surely to God, PTH would not abandon us, the sons of the sons of New France to battle the "Reform" element of the Canadian West alone. Now THERE"S a reason to stay in Canada! Eh? No true Quebecois could be so heartless!

The French forces recaptured Quebec from the English in any event, did they not? It was a treaty that ceded Quebec. One of my ancestors had to get out of the province and go to hell (the US) after killing an English soldier, and another was the wife of one of the !2 who started an uprising. Now that's Canadian. Quebec has owned the government of Canada since confederation and unless there is an upsurge in the demonic undercurrent of Canadian cultural life, Quebec's control of Quebec AND Canada should continue for our mutual benefit. Vive Le Canada Quebecois!