Quebec Separation rekindled. Thanks to Liberals.

[PTH]

M. said:

Take Montréal out of the mix and Québec looks like one big francophonie. OTOH, remove the largest city out of the mix for Alberta, BC, and Ontario, and there remains a healthy percentage of people in other muncipalities who didn't claim either English or French as their mother tongue. That's diversity.

I probably overstated my case. I think I should limit myself to saying that Quebec is very much a multi-cultural and multi-ethnic nation. And while Quebec City and Rimouski don't have their share of immigrants/minorities, as far as I can recall neither do Sault St-Marie or Peterborough.

However, about all those numbers, I think it all has to be taken with a grain of salt. I overstated my case through taking something else I read (in the Gazette, actually) too literally. If I can dig it up again, I'll quote it on here.

..the United Nations has designated Toronto as the World's "most ethnically-diverse city" five times in a row...

I have no issue with Toronto being all that, but Toronto isn't the ROC, or even the rest of Ontario.

[PTH]

Montrealer said:

This sort of attitude about Trudeau is typical of the hard-core seperatist movement - a successful Quebecois federalist? Whatever should we do?

I don't care about his being from Quebec or a federalist, I care about what he did - impose a constitution on us that we didn't want.

Fuddle-duddle you, PTH. I think you know exactly what I'm saying. Fuddle-duddle you.

Somehow I doubt the real meaning of this would be accepted by the code of conduct.

Arrogant revisionist.

That's a nasty word - arrogant. I don't think I'm arrogant, I simply have an opinion. As to revisionism, it's only revisionism if it's a new idea, and Quebecers hating Trudeau is nothing new. And there's nothing wrong with revisionism, anyhow.

Oh, and I didn't bother responding to your condescending comment about my supposed ignorance of the Manitoba Schools question; I am fully aware of that event, and I am fully aware that the Quebecois of the day abandoned the French outside Quebec in order to preserve provincial powers.

So, Quebec is to be blamed for making the wrong choice when the anglo majority stomps on another minority ?

[Doc Holliday]

PTH said:

as far as I can recall neither do Sault St-Marie or Peterborough.

..watch out or we may get flooded into 4 pages of demographical statiscal analysis of Peterborough...

To come back to the original point of the thread, I think that the march towards Quebec sovereignty will be very hard to stop this time around mainly (but not only) due to the lack of a true trusted Federal Champion. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think there are charismatic sovereignists out there either but as you pointed out many soft federalists will go “..what the heck… let’s try another approach”. A mandate given to the Quebec government by its people to go to Ottawa and negotiate a new partnership could very well be the needed trigger to finally define Canada, which could surprisingly (but not obligatorily) when all is said and done still include Quebec as a province. In any event, it would finally be Quebec talking to Ottawa one on one about the specifics of that relationship.

[Doc Holliday]

Montrealer said:

I'm fully willing to have a referendum with the following question:

Do you endorse Quebec separating from Canada, becoming an independant state?
YES
NO

This referendum would be for Quebec only, of course. I don't believe there is any international precedent for trying to eject a member province or state; I don't believe there's any chance of seeing that happen anyway.

As oddly as it seems there is international precendent: The independance of Algeria. Algeria negotiated its independance and then France submitted it to a referendum:

« Approuvez-vous le projet de loi soumis au peuple français par le président de la République et concernant les accords à établir et les mesures à prendre au sujet de l'Algérie sur la base des déclarations gouvernementales du 19 mars 1962 ? »<br>
The stricking ressemblance of the Quebec Independance question to the one asked to the French in 62 can't be just a fat chance...

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

M. said:

Mother Tongue Neither English or French (1996 census)

Toronto 37%
Ottawa 18%

Calagry 19%
Edmonton 20%

Vancouver 34%
Victoria 11%

Montréal 19%
Québec City 2%

Neither English or French as Mother Tongue: 2001 Census

(Ontario 24% of total population)
Toronto 39%
Ottawa-Gatineau 15%
Oshawa 10%
Hamilton 21%
St-Catherines-Niagara 14%
Kitchener 20%
London 16%
Windsor 22%
Sudbury 8%
Thunder Bay 14%

(Manitoba 20% of total population)
Winnipeg 20%

(Saskatchewan 12%of total population)
Regina 10%
Saskatoon 12%

(Alberta 16% of total population)
Calgary 19%
Edmonton 19%

(British Columbia 24% of total population)
Vancouver 37%
Victoria 11%

(Québec 10% of total population)
Montréal 18%
Saguenay 0.4%
Québec City 2%
Sherbrooke 3%
Trois-Rivières 1%

*

Unemployment Rate & Average Weekly Earnings: 1st Q 2005

Québec: 8.2%, $673.52
Ontario: 6.9%, $752.78
Manitoba: 5.3%, $655.88
Saskatchewan: 5.2%, $656.68
Alberta: 3.5%, $759.23
British Columbia: 6.5%, $692.89

Labor Force Participation Rate & Consumer Price Index (1992=100)

Québec: 65.6%, 122.9
Ontario: 68.1%, 127.8
Manitoba: 68.6%, 130.0
Saskatchewan: 69.0%, 131.6
Alberta: 72.8%, 132.7
British Columbia: 65.6%, 124.1

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

PTH said:

I probably overstated my case. I think I should limit myself to saying that Quebec is very much a multi-cultural and multi-ethnic nation. And while Quebec City and Rimouski don't have their share of immigrants/minorities, as far as I can recall neither do Sault St-Marie or Peterborough.

However, about all those numbers, I think it all has to be taken with a grain of salt. I overstated my case through taking something else I read (in the Gazette, actually) too literally. If I can dig it up again, I'll quote it on here.

Québec, with the exception of the island of Montréal, is very much a homogenous entity. The demographic facts bear this out. No salt required.

I have no issue with Toronto being all that, but Toronto isn't the ROC, or even the rest of Ontario.

It isn't a matter of approving or disapproving, Toronto's population demographic is what it is. The same stands for the 3 other Ontario cities listed below that have a more ethnically diverse population than Montréal; plus there are 6 other Ontario cities listed that have greater ethnic diversity than any city in Québec, outside Montréal. Sudbury's population is four times as diverse as Québec City.

*

Percent of population who claim a language other than English or French as their mother tongue :

(Ontario 24% of total population)
Toronto 39%
Ottawa-Gatineau 15%
Oshawa 10%
Hamilton 21%
St-Catherines-Niagara 14%
Kitchener 20%
London 16%
Windsor 22%
Sudbury 8%
Thunder Bay 14%

(Québec 10% of total population)
Montréal 18%
Saguenay 0.4%
Québec City 2%
Sherbrooke 3%
Trois-Rivières 1%

*

Québec is in fact the sixth most ethnically diverse province in Canada; after Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and British Columbia.

*

Time to move on.

[Cranky]

Doc_Holliday said:

It's not nothing. It's just not what we require. We ask for a house, you offer a car and than beat on us not being all impressed and eternally greatful.

.

Actually, as a united society, we offer to share the house but hard core seperatist want to cut sections out of it.

As for fear mongering, why is anything other then the hard-core seperatist line fear mongering? Not a shred of evidence has been offered here that Quebec will be equal or better off. In fact, what happened to Quebec economy of the 70's and 80's? I was there and I saw first hand the economic consequences.

As much as federalist talking about the consequences to both parties called fear mongering by seperatist, the hard core seperatist sweep everything achieved as a united country under the rug and only cry about the past and how it should/could be better future as their "own country". Just a plain old "trust us" by the hard core.

As for the "the march towards Quebec sovereignty will be very hard", well, that is a bit premature. The spike in the polls is a well exploited reaction to the idiotic machinations of the former "Little Despotic Liar". I was watching the CBC and the poll taker said that the 54% is a volatile and reactionary response. As things calm down, things will go back to normal.

The poll question was the same old "negotiate for soverignty/association". When will the hard liners ask their real question?

By the way, I still have property in Quebec and I still may move back there sometime in the future. As an immigrant who first moved to Quebec and a wife that was born in Quebec, we are Quebecers who moved for ONLY economic reasons. To me, Quebec is a part of Canada as Ontario is. In fact, I probably know just as many Quebecers who consider themselves Canadian as any seperatist knows, well, seperatists. So "we Quebecers" should be "I" when seperatist talk and the "our province" is still correct. The "our country" is premature, to say the least.

As for the "still include Quebec as a province". Yup, I'm all for that. There is nothing wrong with a little heated debate as long as in the end, cooler heads prevail and what is best for ALL is done.

Compromise, conciliation, cooperation. That’s MY Canada.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Doc_Holliday said:

..watch out or we may get flooded into 4 pages of demographical statiscal analysis of Peterborough...

Only as many as are needed to dispel myths and misrepresentations.

[PTH]

M. said:

Neither English or French as Mother Tongue: 2001 Census

And what's to say that mother tongue is a valid indicator ? Quebec might just be better at integrating immigrants than the ROC. For starters, Quebec gets plenty of immigrants with a strong basis in French, so by the second generation they're very much integrated.

I don't necessarily believe the above argument BTW, just showing that statistics, however massive and comprehensive, don't tell the whole story.

[franko]

Doc_Holliday said:

..watch out or we may get flooded into 4 pages of demographical statiscal analysis of Peterborough...

Do we get the bistromathics analysis?

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

PTH said:

And what's to say that mother tongue is a valid indicator ? Quebec might just be better at integrating immigrants than the ROC. For starters, Quebec gets plenty of immigrants with a strong basis in French, so by the second generation they're very much integrated.

I don't necessarily believe the above argument BTW, just showing that statistics, however massive and comprehensive, don't tell the whole story.

That's right, one should travel this great country and experience the diversity, or lack thereof, firsthand.

Canadians Who Are, or Have Ever Been Landed Immigrants

Canada: 5,448,480

Québec: 706,965 (10% of province's total population)
Ontario: 3,030,075 (27% of province's total population)
Manitoba: 133,660 (12% of province's total population)
Saskatchewan: 47,825 (5% of province's total population)
Alberta: 435,335 (15% of province's total population)
British Columbia: 1,009,820 (26% of province's total population)


*

Of the 706,965 landed immigrants residing in the province of Québec, 621,885 (88%) live in metropolitan Montréal.

Of the 3,030,075 landed immigrants residing in the province of Ontario, 2,032,960 (67%) live in metropolitan Toronto.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

franko said:

Do we get the bistromathics analysis?

For only $5 more.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Mr. said:

Because it is. Because I believe in our country. Because we have something unique, something special, something that I am proud off. Because I can hold my back straight, my head up and look someone in the eye and say I AM CANADIAN.

You'll still be Canadian after Québec separates. Who knows, you may even be able to enlist when it comes time to annex the Cree lands currently within Québec's provincial borders. Chin up!

[Cranky]

M. said:

You'll still be Canadian after Québec separates. Who knows, you may even be able to enlist when it comes time to annex the Cree lands currently within Québec's provincial borders. Chin up!

LOL!

Why you nasty little troublemaker..........

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

Mr. said:

LOL!

Why you nasty little troublemaker..........

Quebec should not be one of Canada's 10 provinces, but it should still be associated with Canada.
Make it one of Canada's four territories. That way they have the same influence over the ROC as Nanuvit, Yukon and Northwest territories. The Cree could join Labrador or split off to form a fifth territory.

[Doc Holliday]

Cranky,

You seem to despise Jean Chretien but, as him, you greatly underestimate the Nationalist movement in PQ. The last referendum got won by the NO by less than a 2% margin and that referendum didn't follow a series of slap in the face that Chretien's government delivered:

a) killed the notion of distinct society and replaced it with his own watered down, meaningless version.
b) Declared that he will not recognize a yes vote in Quebec unless his conditions are met.
c) Used the constitutional war to hijack millions of tax payers money into one of the biggest scam in Canadian history.

What Trudeau started

...Chretien has continued.

Je me souviens.

[PTH]

M. said:

That's right, one should travel this great country and experience the diversity, or lack thereof, firsthand.

You came up with some real eye-opening numbers. I'm surprised, given that I have in fact travelled in BC and throughout Ontario, that my view wasn't more representative.

At the same time, the new numbers won't make me change my mind on anything of substance.

[Cranky]

Doc_Holliday said:

Cranky,

You seem to despise Jean Chretien but, as him, you greatly underestimate the Nationalist movement in PQ. The last referendum got won by the NO by less than a 2% margin and that referendum didn't follow a series of slap in the face that Chretien's government delivered:

a) killed the notion of distinct society and replaced it with his own watered down, meaningless version.
b) Declared that he will not recognize a yes vote in Quebec unless his conditions are met.
c) Used the constitutional war to hijack millions of tax payers money into one of the biggest scam in Canadian history.

What Trudeau started

...Chretien has continued.

Je me souviens.

Yes, I despise the LITTLE MAN. He was nothing more then a politician whose only blind concern was power, not solution, not unity. We are nowhere and can go to hell in a hand basket because our so called leaders never look for answers, just meeting to talk about questions. NO vision. NO solutions.

Do you realize how quickly everyone can get radicalized? Do you realize how quickly whatever we worked for TOGETHER can go to hell? I have been on the streets of Athens rioting against fellow Greeks when a bunch of very little man held power in Greece in '73. I have seen what brother against brother mean, up close and bloody, and I DESPISE that from the very core of my soul.

I am absolutely CERTAIN that we will face an economic hard times and we can EASILY make a freaken mess of it 100 times faster then it took to build it.

I don't trust the Liberals, I don't trust the Conservatives, I don't trust the BLOC. I don't trust any politician BECAUSE none of them has shown any regard other then their blinded little grasp for POWER.

We need a grass roots revolution to take back our government. We need to get rid of all the agenda yielding, power suckling political mongrels and install people who CARE about US, the people. What are we afraid off? WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT. WE ARE THE POWER.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Mr. said:

LOL!

Why you nasty little troublemaker..........

Why, you came to mind as soon as that possible, but one hopes, unlikely, scenario reoccurred to me.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

PTH said:

You came up with some real eye-opening numbers. I'm surprised, given that I have in fact travelled in BC and throughout Ontario, that my view wasn't more representative.

At the same time, the new numbers won't make me change my mind on anything of substance.

The population of metropolitan Montréal constitutes 47% of the total of the province of Québec. 67% of Montrealers have French as their mother tongue, 18% have neither English nor French as their mother tongue, and 15% have English as theirs.

The ROQ obviously contains the remaining 53% of the population. French is the mother tongue for 93%, 4% have English as their mother tongue, and 3% have neither English or French as their mother tongue.

Taking the province of Québec as a whole, the groups break down as follows in terms of mother tongues: French 81%, 10% neither English or French, and 9% English.

*

The population of metropolitan Toronto constitutes 41% of the total of the province of Ontario. 58% have English as their mother tongue, 39% neither English or French, and 3% French.

The ROO is home to the other 59% of the populace. English is the mother tongue of 80%, 13% have neither English or French as theirs, and French is the mother tongue of 7%.

Taking the province of Ontario as a whole, the groups break down as follows in terms of mother tongues: English 71%, neither English or French 24%, and 5% French.

*

I am counting on you, and many others, not to change your minds.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Mr. said:

One of the things we are always sold on in Canada is that the richer provinces/people should share their good fortune with the poorer. I can buy that as the "big picture" of Canada.

A noble sentiment, big spender. Think you'll get lucky if you keep paying the bills?

Local governments, assets and liabilities, by provinces and territories: Net Debt as of December 31, 2002
In billions of dollars

Canada: -12.136

Québec: -16.276
Ontario: +2.925
Manitoba: -0.312
Saskatchewan: +0.859
Alberta: +0.961
British Columbia: +1.248

- www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/govt40a.htm

[blaise]

George W. Bush makes these provincials look like pikers. He runs the US on an unlimited credit card. Won't someone please anchor his helium balloon?

[Doc Holliday]

I had to edit this post because frankly I regret to have let myself be drawn in the gutter of an immature exchange that I should have avoided. What lies ahead of us will require a great deal of mutual trust and understanding, cool headed discussion will prevail over provocation and blind sided attacks. There will always be agitators and extremists ready to scrap centuries of cooperation but it's the voice and lead of those who still seek mutual understanding that will be heard in the end. I'm sorry if I offended anyone by defending too vigorously my point of view.

I believe Canadians have shaped and built a very successful country at their image and I also feel that more often than not they've gone out of their way to accommodate Quebec as much as they could while protecting and securing their own social-economic realities above all. As every country should. But the days of the Beaux Risque are over, Quebec very simply requires its own mechanisms to insure its internal and international development just like Canada did and will continue to do. Quebec Sovereignty is not a denial of the Canadian reality it's an affirmation of the Quebec reality in what's been historically a unique cooperation between 2 distinct nations. It’s the next step up for both nations, it’s a way of entering the future and facing globalization with tools and strengths that are different but can complement each other well if given the opportunity to be independently developed.

For those of you who have read or understand the Sovereignty project, it is not the hard and definitive separation, divorce "and-we'll-slam-the-door-on-the-way-out" that some would like to portrait. Quite the opposite, as the core of the project relies on joint customs, free circulation of people, merchandise, services, capitals and a fair split of the assets and debt. The stay in romantic terms, it's much more a way of getting married than a way of getting divorced.

Canada and Quebec do not always have common economic and development goals but that does not mean that only one line of thought must prevail at the expense of the other. If Canada continues to achieve its own goal and Quebec start working towards that as well than really redefining the way we cooperate with each other CAN have very positive aspects as it will dynamize the global Canada/Quebec economy and put to rest century long constitutional wars.

We've been at a crossroad for a long time, not too sure where to go, immobile, arguing, letting partisan speeches influence our decisions over common sense and open mind. Time to move forward, once again hand in hand.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Very eloquent and heartfelt post, Doc.

However, Canada is a nation, which includes Québec as a province. If Québécois see themselves as, and/or determine themselves to be, an independent nation, then Québec de facto cannot be seen as part of Canada, but must be acknowledged to be an entity apart, distinct, and separate.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Right or wrong, there is a perception by many in the ROC of Québec demanding and hoarding "privileges", while thumbing its nose at the other provinces and playing them for fools and suckers.

You are right that the time for rhetoric and fence-straddling is nearly over. Canada will have to decide what to do vis-avis Québec, and Québec will have to decide what to do with itself.

Stay or go. If stay, then it seems that it will be under more sensible, in the view of the ROC, house rules. If go, then Québec is on its own, which is what being independent and being a nation entails.

Centuries of co-operation need not be scrapped. Once material settlements have been arranged, a new diplomatic relationship will be forged, as is normal between civilized nations. There is nothing bitter or vindictive about this: It is just a matter of business between two neighbouring, and one hopes neighbourly, states.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Quebec's not plotting revolution

By LYSIANE GAGNON

Monday, May 2, 2005 Page A13

A Léger Marketing poll published last week in Le Devoir and The Globe and Mail sent shock waves across Canada. According to this poll, 54 per cent of Quebeckers, an unusually high proportion, would vote Yes to the sovereignty question asked in the 1995 referendum.

Had support for independence suddenly skyrocketed? Was this the outcome of the Gomery inquiry and sponsorship scandal?

People should have calmed down before rushing to this conclusion. The next day, another poll came out, this one done by CROP (Centre de reherche en opinion publique) for La Presse, with a different conclusion: Support for sovereignty is at 47 per cent -- a mere two points higher than a few weeks ago, at about the same level it has been since last June. The Bloc Québécois is undoubtedly gaining from the sponsorship scandal, but not, it seems, the sovereigntist movement.

CROP is a major polling firm with an excellent track record, so its findings must be taken as seriously as those of Léger.

In any case, a careful reader of the Léger poll would have found several results that put a damper on the so-called renewed enthusiasm for sovereignty. To wit: 56 per cent of sovereigntist voters want "Quebec to continue to be part of Canada." This means that support for sovereignty would crumble as soon as people realized that sovereignty represents a total break from Canada. The traditional ambivalence that is the major obstacle on the road to sovereignty is still very much alive.

Another finding confirms that being Canadian is at the core of most Quebeckers' identity. Only 22 per cent of francophone respondents say they feel "only Quebecker." Those are presumably the "real" separatists, who see Canada as a foreign country. The vast majority of francophones, on the contrary, have an emotional link to both Quebec and Canada: 35 per cent feel "more Quebecker than Canadian" and 33 per cent feel "both Quebecker and Canadian." Furthermore, invited to choose between various constitutional options, 46 per cent opt for either "renewed federalism" or the "status quo," while 42 per cent opt for sovereignty-cum-partnership with Canada. Even in the middle of a scandal that is infuriating the whole province and destroying the credibility of the major federalist party in Quebec, the vast majority of people cannot bring themselves to contemplate outright secession.

The irony is that the 1995 question, to which both Léger and CROP refer, is now irrelevant, since the Parti Québécois has decided that, in the next referendum, the question will be about nothing but sovereignty. The reference to an "economic and political partnership with Canada" will disappear.

This is a strange move from the PQ, since a clear, non-ambiguous question will automatically deprive the Yes camp of about half its traditional support. (The notion of straightforward independence never attracted more than a quarter of the electorate.) For years, all polling firms have based their questionnaires on the two previous referendum questions, which called for a close association or partnership with Canada. Their findings do not reflect what Quebeckers think about the concept of sovereignty without partnership.

The leadership of the PQ, normally more cautious, agreed with the move to placate the party's hard-liners, but my guess is that as soon as the PQ is returned to power and a referendum is looming, the party will change its program and resort to a soft, ambiguous and reassuring question.

Both the Léger and CROP polls agree on the fate of the Liberals in the upcoming federal election. Léger has the Bloc at 49 per cent and the Liberal Party at 22 in Quebec. CROP has the Bloc at 49 per cent and the Liberals at 23. This is where the Gomery commission hits. But until now, at least judging by the CROP poll, the sovereigntists haven't been able to gain from the issue.

[Doc Holliday]

I would agree with Lysianne Gagon view that the Sovereignty shouldn't be just a knee jerk reaction to Chretien's corrupted government. While nobody is looking, the Partie Quebecois is changing their traditional image of separatists, fist in the air and fleur de lys painted on the face. They realized that a) not many people really had a first hand knowledge of what their project was because b) they've done a lousy job at presenting it and explaining it, counting only on Pride and/or Bitterness to strike YES points.

Now they're out there. Calmly, patiently presenting the projet. The idea is simple, if one Sovereignist can convince 2-3 Federalists that the project makes sense, than you get a snowball effect and all of sudden many anti-sovereignty myths no longer work because the population is informed. Polling the voters today on Sovereignty doesn't do much... The project must get momentum as the referendum won't happen before the next provincial government anyway. PTH and I are 2 example of recently converted Sovereignists and I can assure you that we are not unique. I see it first hand at every levels. That being said, I am pretty comfortable with Federalists seeing the sovereignty movement as a somewhat irrelevant underdog.

The true and only (IMO) danger to Sovereignists comes from L'ADQ (Association Demagogique du Quebec ;D) as they try to gain political strenght by puting together a somwhat hybrid and anachronic concept of Autonomy based on a reformed Federal system that has its root in successful negotiations with the Federal on a number of items that have historicly been refused to us. Something that's been tried over and over. Hopefully this reheated poutine won't plit the independant vote too much.

As for the question, the Supreme Court already ruled that it will only recognize the result of a referendum on a clear question.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

From a comfortable distance, away from the daily swings and vasilations of YES/NO to soverignty association (whatever that means), I have clearly observed (pun intended) that a number of rational former Canadian Unity supporters are moving to the new association viewpoint. I still support one Canada, but I recognize that there is a growing number of reasonable voices swinging to the other side. Soverignty Association can no longer be dismissed as the province of radicals, terrorists and intellectuals.
It appears that there is a new reality forming and change will be painful for many, especially those who do not see the benefit of the pain to be endured. Cost/benefit analysis does not work for many.
It is simplistic to view this divorce or new separation agreement as a joyously negotiated understanding where new borders will be drawn along the old lines. There will be a significant minority who do not want to move from Quebec and still remain Canadians. Whether joining Ontario, forming a separate anglo-cree-quebec province, becoming a territory or a separate ethnic group within Quebec with entrenched rights, guarantees and vetos, anger will be unavoidable on all sides as in any divorce. The lessons observed separating ethnic diversity in Kosovo, Iraq and Ireland do not support a painless new structure where any of the many sides are going to be happy.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

If Quebec's separation is to be negotiated, may I suggest Bettman for the ROC and Goodenow for Quebec. That way it is unlikely to see an agreement reached before 2105.

[PTH]

Doc_Holliday said:

Calmly, patiently presenting the projet. The idea is simple, if one Sovereignist can convince 2-3 Federalists that the project makes sense, than you get a snowball effect and all of sudden many anti-sovereignty myths no longer work because the population is informed.

Also, the 1995 referendum was keystone for another reason - well over half of francophones voted YES. Since then, it's perfectly normal to hear a joke about "how can you tell who's a moron? He voted NO." Or " how many Morons are there in Quebec? About 52%", etc, etc. Being a separatist is actually normal among francophones, it's almost a given for many or even most.

The true and only (IMO) danger to Sovereignists comes from L'ADQ (Association Demagogique du Quebec ;D) as they try to gain political strenght by puting together a somwhat hybrid and anachronic concept of Autonomy based on a reformed Federal system that has its root in successful negotiations with the Federal on a number of items that have historicly been refused to us. Something that's been tried over and over. Hopefully this reheated poutine won't plit the independant vote too much.

I know that the ADQ annoy me through making ridiculous promises and making up a map of what they'd want from Canada, even though there's no reason to think that the ROC is ready to go back to where we were with Meech Lake, much less to have a complicated arrangement with a special place for Quebec, which is what the ADQ is promising.

Right now, the ROC is making this very simple: sovereignty or status quo. I'd rather half-way, but really, it's not going to happen so I'll choose too much change rather than not enough.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

PTH said:

Also, the 1995 referendum was keystone for another reason - well over half of francophones voted YES. Since then, it's perfectly normal to hear a joke about "how can you tell who's a moron? He voted NO." Or " how many Morons are there in Quebec? About 52%", etc, etc.

Democracy in action can be bitter medicine at times.

Being a separatist is actually normal among francophones, it's almost a given for many or even most.

Not surprising. Historically, popular homogeneity has tended to favour unanimity on issues of nationalism. Diversity has tended to be the enemy of this singleness of purpose. Mileage has varied greatly.

I know that the ADQ annoy me through making ridiculous promises and making up a map of what they'd want from Canada, even though there's no reason to think that the ROC is ready to go back to where we were with Meech Lake, much less to have a complicated arrangement with a special place for Quebec, which is what the ADQ is promising.

Whereas, present and past Québec governemnts have not lobbied and negotiated for special/distinct status for Québec?

Right now, the ROC is making this very simple: sovereignty or status quo. I'd rather half-way, but really, it's not going to happen so I'll choose too much change rather than not enough.

Why not? The National Assembly (provincial legislature in the ROC) has been named and waiting for a while now. The display of the fleur-de-lys takes precedence over the Canadian flag. Celebration of the Fête Nationale (St-Jean-de-Baptiste Day) dwarfs that of Canada Day. Etc.